"Chris Angelico" wrote in message
news:CAPTjJmpi-kvJAVs2gK+nH5n6q3REkJaKR=czerfzugdk8_v...@mail.gmail.com...
> On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 11:49 PM, Frank Millman
> wrote:
>>
>
[...]
I have realised that we unlikely to come to an agreement on this in the near
future
"Steven D'Aprano" wrote in message
news:52e473fc$0$2$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com...
> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:18:44 +0200, Frank Millman wrote:
>
>> I have realised that we unlikely to come to an agreement on this in the
>> near future, as our phil
as hand-crafting my form definitions initially, and as I added
features it became unwieldy. Forcing myself to create the schema highlighted
a lot of anomalies and I ended up with a much cleaner structure as a result.
Secondly, it has picked up a lot of errors in the resulting documents
dering if it possible to create a packet sniffer in windows using
> > python that only sniffs for ARP packets.
>
> A couple of links to get you started:
>
> http://www.winpcap.org/
> http://code.google.com/p/winpcapy/
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo
', 3: 'pqr'}
>>> sorted(d.items(), key=d.get)
[(1, 'abc'), (2, 'xyz'), (3, 'pqr')]
It did not crash, but it did not sort.
Then I changed the keys to strings, to match Igor's example -
>>> d = {'1': 'abc', '2': 'xyz', '3': 'pqr'}
>>> sorted(d.items(), key=d.get)
[('1', 'abc'), ('3', 'pqr'), ('2', 'xyz')]
It works - now I am even more confused.
Any hints will be appreciated.
Frank Millman
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"Frank Millman" wrote in message
news:ld4ocf$9rg$1...@ger.gmane.org...
>
> "Chris Angelico" wrote in message
> news:captjjmqdusdfc1elbu6lf5-up__lae-63ii0uuvaggnem9u...@mail.gmail.com...
>> On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Igor Korot wrote:
>>&
"Peter Otten" <__pete...@web.de> wrote in message
news:ld4pon$ni9$1...@ger.gmane.org...
> Frank Millman wrote:
>
> Here you can watch the key calculation at work:
>
>>>> d = {'1': 'abc', '2': 'xyz', '3':
ch iteration sets 'x' to the next key in
dictionary 'a'.
'x' is a reference to a normal python object. It does not 'know' that it
came from dictionary 'a', so you can do whatever you like with it. If you
use it to retrieve a value in diction
everts back to two decimal places.
If I initialise the value as D('6049.05'), the next value is 6172.5, so it
is not the number itself that causes the problem.
I tried displaying the type - even when it switches to 6172.4999, it is
still a Decimal type.
I noticed one oddity - I am
"Igor Korot" wrote in message
news:CA+FnnTyaLLEsYGU7v2BreySDOQ1rVsMzJ=5f4iQTLW3=tn=e...@mail.gmail.com...
Hi,
> To: python-list@python.org
> From: "Frank Millman"
> Subject: Problem with sqlite3 and Decimal
> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:21:53 +0200
> Lines
"Chris Angelico" wrote in message
news:captjjmor6newucco7xtsswyyfbgwcwz8jt-mjjkysjocfu7...@mail.gmail.com...
On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:21 PM, Frank Millman wrote:
> I noticed one oddity - I am asking sqlite3 to store the value as a
> string,
> but then I am asking it to
people on the sqlite3 ML, is that
sqlite3 does not have a true decimal type and therefore uses floating point
internally. As we all know from many questions asked on this forum, floating
point and exact decimal representation are incompatible.
Frank
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"Chris Angelico" wrote in message
news:CAPTjJmoPXFSnXe1QA8MjjncBZBpqNkztha8YHJv=mbm--ze...@mail.gmail.com...
On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 4:10 PM, Frank Millman wrote:
> I can reproduce your example above. However, if I set the initial value
> to
> 5678.7, then the seque
"Frank Millman" wrote in message news:n4ei3l$b98$1...@ger.gmane.org...
I need to store Decimal objects in a sqlite3 database, using Python 3.4 on
Windows 7.
I followed the instructions here -
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6319409/how-to-convert-python-decimal-to-sqlite-n
"Frank Millman" wrote in message news:n4gigr$f51$1...@ger.gmane.org...
I have found a workaround for my problem, but first I needed to understand
what was going on more clearly. This is what I have figured out.
[...]
The reason for the '#' in the above function is tha
"Chris Angelico" wrote in message
news:CAPTjJmrfw-qNx-a=3q2qj244fgvxz3mpe4wa-wdusmchxuf...@mail.gmail.com...
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:00 PM, Frank Millman wrote:
> My new solution is to pass a 'scale' factor into my aggregate function.
> The
> function uses t
may have (as usual with emacs!) to choose which you
> like best, ie not all are not bound to keys.
Emacs is great for python editing. I use elpy-mode on top of emacs
python-mode. And company-mode for completion.
Frank
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ged! Now,
if 0 rows are returned, the message is 'not enough values to unpack'.
Luckily the other message has not changed, so now my test is -
except ValueError as e:
if str(e).startswith('too many'):
# > 1 rows returned
else:
# 0 rows returned
Now it
"Chris Angelico" wrote in message
news:captjjmps+vfu33tulae5oivrvn_otfuxrp8yluy68qmu36-...@mail.gmail.com...
On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 5:27 PM, Frank Millman wrote:
> Using LBYL, one would retrieve the row(s) and check the length. I found
> a
> way to use EAFP, as follow
"Frank Millman" wrote in message news:n77j78$ld0$1...@ger.gmane.org...
cur.execute(...)
try:
row = next(cur)
except StopIteration:
# 0 rows returned
try:
next(cur)
except StopIteration: pass
else:
# >1 rows returned
For the record, I just tried this and found an
"format" still
doesn't quite do the job:
>>> a = range(4, 8)
>>> print ('th\n'.join(map(str,a)))
4th
5th
6th
7
Is there an elegant way to print-format an arbitrary length list?
How about this -
a = range(4, 8)
print('\n'.join(['{}t
there an easy way to find out all the missing components, so that when
the installation is complete I can be sure I have the entire standard lib?
Thanks
Frank Millman
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On 2016-01-21, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 6:18 PM, Frank Millman wrote:
Fedora 22 comes standard with Python 3.4.2. I want to install 3.5.1.
It is easy enough to download the source and run ./configure;make;make
altinstall. But then I find that I cannot import gzip because
if what I am going through sounds normal, or if I am doing something
fundamentally wrong.
Thanks for any input
Frank Millman
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"Frank Millman" wrote in message news:n8038j$575$1...@ger.gmane.org...
So I thought I would ask here if anyone has been through a similar
exercise, and if what I am going through sounds normal, or if I am doing
something fundamentally wrong.
Thanks for any input
Just a qui
"Ian Kelly" wrote in message
news:calwzidngogpx+cpmvba8vpefuq4-bwmvs0gz3shb0owzi0b...@mail.gmail.com...
On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 7:38 AM, Frank Millman wrote:
> Here is the difficulty. The recommended way to handle a blocking
> operation
> is to run it as task in a diff
"Ian Kelly" wrote in message
news:calwzidngogpx+cpmvba8vpefuq4-bwmvs0gz3shb0owzi0b...@mail.gmail.com...
On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 7:38 AM, Frank Millman wrote:
> Here is the difficulty. The recommended way to handle a blocking
> operation
> is to run it as task in a diff
"Frank Millman" wrote in message news:n8038j$575$1...@ger.gmane.org...
I am developing a typical accounting/business application which involves a
front-end allowing clients to access the system, a back-end connecting to
a database, and a middle layer that glues it al
"Ian Kelly" wrote in message
news:CALwzidk-RBkB-vi6CgcEeoFHQrsoTFvqX9MqzDD=rny5boc...@mail.gmail.com...
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 7:15 AM, Frank Millman wrote:
>
> If I return the cursor, I can iterate over it, but isn't this a blocking
> operation? As far as I know,
"Ian Kelly" wrote in message
news:calwzidn6tvn9w-2qnn2jyvju8nhzn499nptfjn9ohjddceb...@mail.gmail.com...
On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 7:40 AM, Frank Millman wrote:
>
> Assume a slow function -
>
> async def slow_function(arg1, arg2):
>[do stuff]
>
> It now
"Ian Kelly" wrote in message
news:CALwzidk-RBkB-vi6CgcEeoFHQrsoTFvqX9MqzDD=rny5boc...@mail.gmail.com...
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 7:15 AM, Frank Millman wrote:
>
> If I return the cursor, I can iterate over it, but isn't this a blocking
> operation? As far as I know,
io.Queue to send results back to the
caller, which can call 'await q.get()'.
I ran a quick test and it seems to work. What do you think?
Frank
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"Chris Angelico" wrote in message
news:captjjmr162+k4lzefpxrur6wxrhxbr-_wkrclldyr7kst+k...@mail.gmail.com...
On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 8:13 PM, Frank Millman wrote:
> Run the database handler in a separate thread. Use a queue.Queue to send
> requests to the handler. Use an async
"Ian Kelly" wrote in message
news:CALwzidnGbz7kM=d7mkua2ta9-csfn9u0ohl0w-x5bbixpcw...@mail.gmail.com...
On Jan 28, 2016 4:13 AM, "Frank Millman" wrote:
>
> I *think* I have this one covered. When the caller makes a request, it
creates an instance of an asyncio.Queue
owever, having found something that seems to work and that I
feel comfortable with, I plan to run with this for the time being.
Thanks to all for the very stimulating discussion.
Frank
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"Frank Millman" wrote in message news:n8et0d$hem$1...@ger.gmane.org...
I have read the other messages, and I can see that there are some clever
ideas there. However, having found something that seems to work and that I
feel comfortable with, I plan to run with this for the time
cannot find it.
I can achieve the desired result by calling 'await aiter.__anext__()', but
this is clunky.
Am I missing something?
Frank Millman
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"Ian Kelly" wrote in message
news:CALwzid=ssdsm8hdan+orj54a_jeu9wc8103iqgkaah8mrj-...@mail.gmail.com...
On Jan 29, 2016 11:04 PM, "Frank Millman" wrote:
>
> Hi all
>
> To loop though an iterator one usually uses a higher-level construct
> such
as a '
nc for _ in ait:
raise TooManyRows()
return row
Also nice - thanks. I now have a few to choose from without needing an
'anext()'.
Frank
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"Chris Angelico" wrote in message
news:CAPTjJmoAmVNTCKq7QYaDRNQ67Gcg9TxSXYXCrY==s9djjna...@mail.gmail.com...
On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Frank Millman wrote:
> We had a recent discussion about the best way to do this, and ChrisA
> suggested the followin
m at my leisure and pick the most
readable one.
Thanks
Frank
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to in the documentation for
'task_done()'. I tried it out, and it does exactly what I want.
However, it is not mentioned in the documentation.
How do I know if it is safe to rely on this?
Thanks
Frank Millman
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at will settle the
question one way or the other.
Frank
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"Frank Millman" wrote in message news:n91ndn$sc1$1...@ger.gmane.org...
Thanks for the link, Lutz. Unfortunately I may have asked the wrong
question.
In my specific case, how do I know if it is safe to use the attribute
'unfinished_tasks' in the class queue.Queue?
It
sleep'
using wait() with a timeout value, but reacts instantly when set() is
called, so it was ideal.
Is there a way to achieve this using asyncio?
Thanks
Frank Millman
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"Marko Rauhamaa" wrote in message news:87lh6ys052@elektro.pacujo.net...
"Frank Millman" :
> When shutting the main program down, I want to stop the task, but I
> cannot figure out how to stop it cleanly - i.e. wait until it has
> finished the current tas
syncio.CancelledError:
await perform_cleanup()
At startup -
task = asyncio.ensure_future(background_task())
At shutdown -
task.cancel()
await asyncio.wait([task])
Works perfectly - thanks again.
Frank
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"Frank Millman" wrote in message news:n96kjr$mvl$1...@ger.gmane.org...
"Marko Rauhamaa" wrote in message
news:8737t5shhp@elektro.pacujo.net...
> Actually, cancellation is specially supported in asyncio ( https://docs.python.org/3/library/asyncio-task.html#asy
y, but if you press it in between 'start' and 'done', it
waits for the task to complete before it closes.
Frank
=
import asyncio, time
import threading
def main():
loop = asyncio.get_event_loop()
task = asyn
"Marko Rauhamaa" wrote in message news:871t8orhua@elektro.pacujo.net...
"Frank Millman" :
> I have never been able to get Ctrl+C to work properly on Windows, so I
> use a separate thread that simply waits for Enter.
Now you are leaving my realm of expertise, a
ing
function to process each row, the overhead of call_soon_threadsafe() would
be minimised and my approach might be effective. For now, however, I will
regretfully abandon my approach and stick with run_in_executor().
Frank Millman
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esets the state to 'not'.
I learned the hard way that it is important to use conn.commit() and not
cur.execute('commit'). Both succeed in committing, but the second does not
reset the state, therefore the next statement does not trigger a 'BEGIN',
with possible unfortunate side-effects.
HTH
Frank Millman
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hich one).
Because psycopg2 silently executes 'BEGIN TRANSACTION', your SELECTs always
happen inside a transaction whether you specify it or not. If you do not
issue a conn.commit(), the locks do not get cleared.
Frank
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"Frank Millman" wrote in message news:n9c4p3$gmp$1...@ger.gmane.org...
Some of you may have been following my attempts to modify my asyncio app
so that it does not block when accessing the database. Here is an update.
Here is an update to my update ...
I came up with what f
rn_queue.get()
return self.rows.pop(0)
Hope this makes sense.
Frank
--
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be other non-database tasks running concurrently, and they should
also be more responsive.
It would be quite difficult to simulate all of this, so I confess that I am
relying on gut instinct at the moment.
Frank
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On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 14:29:04 +, cl wrote:
> I am trying out wxGlade on Linux, version 0.7.1 of wxGlade on xubuntu
> 15.10.
>
> I have already written something using wxPython directly so I have the
> basics (of my Python skills and the environment) OK I think.
>
> I am having a lot of troubl
"Frank Millman" wrote in message news:n9hjfp$ad7$1...@ger.gmane.org...
However, my concern is not to maximise database performance, but to ensure
that in an asynchronous environment, one task does not block the others
from responding. My tests simulate a number of tasks running co
= BackgroundTask()
args = (arg1, arg2 ...)
callback = my_callback_function
await bg_task.run(coro, args, callback)
Although it 'awaits' bk_task.run(), it returns immediately, as it is simply
waiting for run_in_executor() to be launched.
Hope this is of some interest.
Fra
"Marko Rauhamaa" wrote in message news:8737sumpjl@elektro.pacujo.net...
"Frank Millman" :
> Using asyncio, there are times when I want to execute a coroutine which
> is time-consuming. I do not need the result immediately, and I do not
> want to block the curr
"Paul Rubin" wrote in message
news:87h9ha8lt0@jester.gateway.pace.com...
"Frank Millman" writes:
> The benefit of my class is that it enables me to take the coroutine
> and run it in another thread, without having to re-engineer the whole
> thing.
Th
ks perfectly, and is much neater than my effort.
Frank
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vity in
the background. However, I have not simulated a large number of concurrent
users. That could throw up the kinds of problem that you are concerned
about.
Frank
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g queues) seems to be working well so far, I am
sticking with that until I start to experience responsiveness issues. If
that happens, my first line of attack will be to switch from threads to
processes.
Hope this makes sense.
Frank
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"Chris Angelico" wrote in message
news:captjjmqmie4groqnyvhwahcn2mwqeyqxt5kvfivotrhqy-s...@mail.gmail.com...
On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 2:21 AM, Frank Millman wrote:
> I would love to drive the database asynchronously, but of the three
> databases I use, only psycopg2 seems
hen include the remote table in any sql
command. However, it will not enforce foreign key constraints across
databases.
Frank Millman
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"Dennis Lee Bieber" wrote in message
news:8d747a5biq4rc559tvgju088508bp0o...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 23 Nov 2014 10:21:48 +0200, "Frank Millman"
> declaimed the following:
>
>>
>>
>>The default is for sqlite3 to ignore foreign key contraints.
>>
"Dennis Lee Bieber" wrote in message
news:lrr67al6ppa852agu9rq2dstqtue17i...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2014 10:05:11 +0200, "Frank Millman"
> declaimed the following:
>
>>
>>Originally I supported two databases - PostgreSQL and Sql Server. They
7;t know if Sql Server and sqlite3 behave the same, but I don't think it
can do any harm, so I let it apply across the board.
Can anyone see any problem with this?
Frank Millman
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"Dennis Lee Bieber" wrote in message
news:4loe7at2ls7tfq0oe041ru9svvsm8ak...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 27 Nov 2014 12:24:39 +0200, "Frank Millman"
> declaimed the following:
>
>
>>All Python database adaptors that I have used start a transaction when you
>&
"Frank Millman" wrote in message
news:m5924d$nbq$1...@ger.gmane.org...
>
>
> This seems to confirm what I thought, but then I continued, and was
> surprised at the result.
>
> I can repeat these lines at will -
>
> cur.execute('SELECT * FROM mytable
eout occurs."
The benefit is that setting the flag terminates the loop straight away, as
opposed to waiting for the sleep to finish.
I can show some sample code if anyone is interested.
Frank Millman
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1:c0e311e010fc, May 18 2014, 10:38:22) [MSC v.1600 32 bit
(Intel)] on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> a1 = 0xf4
>>> a1
244
>>> b1 = '0x{:x}'.format(a1)
>>> b1
&
ndard way of parsing it? If
not, I will have to special-case it, but I would prefer to avoid that if
possible.
Thanks
Frank Millman
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ething seems to have gone wrong with the system font. I don't use IDLE,
but I use OutlookExpress and Textpad, and they both show a similar effect.
I can live with it for now. I am hoping (with fingers crossed) that enough
people will complain to Microsoft that they will issue a fix shortly.
F
eturn a date object -
>>> cur.execute('SELECT CAST(? AS DATE)', ('2015-03-31',))
>>> cur.fetchone()
(2015,)
>>>
I don't know how easy this would be to implement, but it would be nice if it
could be made to work.
Is it worth filing a feature request?
Frank Millman
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"Chris Angelico" wrote in message
news:CAPTjJmrB+55CVgN6zTUawRf=rzn9ltavi5tzhjsyvhhywk1...@mail.gmail.com...
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Frank Millman wrote:
>> However, the following does not return a date object -
>>
>>>>> cur.execut
"Mark Lawrence" wrote in message
news:mc1g3n$q8j$1...@ger.gmane.org...
> On 18/02/2015 06:19, Frank Millman wrote:
>> Hi all
>>
>> sqlite3 does not have a DATE type, but the python module does a pretty
>> good
>> job of providing one -
>>
>&g
are no longer alive, they are
automatically removed from the WeakSet, preventing me from accidentally
calling them when they are dead."
I found that the reference was not removed immediately, but was waiting to
be garbage collected. During that window, I could call the callback, which
resul
"Steven D'Aprano" wrote in message
news:54e8af1b$0$12976$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com...
> Frank Millman wrote:
>
>> I tried something similar a while ago, and I did find a gotcha.
>>
>> The problem lies in this phrase - "if they are no longer a
he object it is
referencing does not exist.
My problem was that I had performed a cleanup operation on the listening
object before letting it go out of scope, and it was no longer in a valid
state to deal with the callback, resulting in an error. If you do not have
that situation, your ori
e released code.
Frank
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Andreas R?hler wrote:
> Re-opened the ticket mentioned. Please subscribe there, so you may get the
> bug-mail.
I've subscribed at launchpad and have given you a few more details there.
Much appreciate you taking the time to look at this.
--
Frank Stutzman
--
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thon3 to return a float -
>>> 10/3
3.3335
You can reproduce the python3 behaviour in python2 by adding a 'future'
directive -
>>> from __future__ import division
>>> 10/3
3.3335
HTH
Frank Millman
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"Luke Geelen" wrote in message
news:ae0da085-6c41-4166-92d2-92611a990...@googlegroups.com...
> Op zaterdag 15 februari 2014 11:04:17 UTC+1 schreef Frank Millman:
>> "Luke Geelen" wrote in message
>>
>> news:ec88852e-1384-4aa5-834b-85135be94...@g
"Frank Millman" wrote in message
news:ldngnf$c3r$1...@ger.gmane.org...
>
> "Luke Geelen" wrote in message
> news:ae0da085-6c41-4166-92d2-92611a990...@googlegroups.com...
>> Op zaterdag 15 februari 2014 11:04:17 UTC+1 schreef Frank Millman:
This has been resolved and I want to publically thank Andreas for finding
and fixing this bug so quick. I'm fairly new to open source development and
the rapidity that this was fix was gratifying.
--
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oop
C:\>python -m timeit -s "import copy" "copy.deepcopy(b'a'*1000)"
10 loops, best of 3: 11.7 usec per loop
As you can see, deepcopying a string is slightly slower than copying it.
However, deepcopying a byte string is orders of magnitude quicker than
copying
box.sort() sorts box 'in situ', but does not return anything. That is why
the second example prints None.
In your second example, you are comparing the return value of box.sort()
with [1, 2, 3]. As the return value is None, they are unequal.
HTH
Frank Millman
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"Frank Millman" wrote in message
news:lemm11$18r$1...@ger.gmane.org...
> Hi all
>
> I noticed this a little while ago, but dismissed it as a curiosity. On
> reflection, I decided to mention it here in case it indicates a problem.
>
> This is with python 3.3.2.
and python 3.3.2.
I have just booted it up now, called up a command prompt, typed 'python' to
start the interpreter, and typed 'import decimal'. The interpreter prompt
re-appeared in the blink of an eye.
Are you talking about something else?
Frank Millman
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"Chris Angelico" wrote in message
news:CAPTjJmrmJjiGMfqui=PpJco7LjtqVpUjj=xnmtybyqemxg3...@mail.gmail.com...
> On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 4:51 PM, Frank Millman wrote:
>> Which version are you talking about?
>>
>> I have an old, slow box running Windows Server 2003
ny machine?
Any hints will be appreciated.
Frank Millman
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"Chris Angelico" wrote in message
news:CAPTjJmqPca5cnNWu8T5BZhpH665X0=mrf7bjalqvrqvmjzw...@mail.gmail.com...
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 12:06 AM, Frank Millman
> wrote:
[...]
>>
>> So where should I install the SCM, and how should I set it up so that I
>> can
"Chris Angelico" wrote in message
news:captjjmqhxh2m3-qgbelv_akgajzmeymbudly8_dkpnhrpsu...@mail.gmail.com...
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Frank Millman wrote:
>> Two quick questions -
>>
>> 1. At present the source code is kept on one machine (A), but on
"Andriy Kornatskyy" wrote in message
news:blu0-smtp953c8572b5ca6374830e5091...@phx.gbl...
> Frank,
>
> I would suggest start with an account on https://bitbucket.org. It
> supports private repositories so you should be good there.
>
> From other hand you can setu
"Ben Finney" wrote in message
news:85y508roiw@benfinney.id.au...
> "Frank Millman" writes:
>
>> I feel that I have just not grasped the basics yet, so any assistance
>> that
>> puts me on the right path is appreciated.
>
> Here is &qu
"Frank Millman" wrote in message
news:lg6s09$irl$1...@ger.gmane.org...
> Hi all
>
> I know I *should* be using a Source Control Management system, but at
> present I am not. I tried to set up Mercurial a couple of years ago, but I
> think I set it up wrongly, as
"Frank Millman" wrote in message
news:lgbe6g$j9o$1...@ger.gmane.org...
>
>
> To recap my basic setup, I have machine A which holds the source
> directory, machine B which is used to edit the program, and machines B and
> C which are both used to run the program.
>
"Cameron Simpson" wrote in message
news:20140321013313.ga58...@cskk.homeip.net...
>
> Someone intending to clone the project and develop will probably
> want the whole repository; as Gregory says - they can then easily
> push/pull with others.
>
> For Frank, the size
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