Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Newbies need IDEs (was Mac User Python Newbie)

On Feb 14, 2005, at 12:34 AM, Brendan Simons wrote: Maybe that's a benefit! Since they have no IDEs (that I know of), a souped up text editor is the obvious choice. No room to get confused or frustrated with the plethora of almost-there IDEs. I agree that that is probably the best approach to a

[Pythonmac-SIG] Newbies need IDEs (was Mac User Python Newbie)

Maybe that's a benefit! Since they have no IDEs (that I know of), a souped up text editor is the obvious choice. No room to get confused or frustrated with the plethora of almost-there IDEs. -bob I agree that that is probably the best approach to advocate until new tools are ready. As soon

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac newbie

On Feb 13, 2005, at 10:17 PM, Jon Schull wrote: On Feb 13, 2005, at 6:23 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: On Feb 13, 2005, at 17:53, Jon Schull wrote: So in prioritized order (numbers are prioritized; letter ordering is not) 1a. A peppy native aqua, crash-free text editor with optional syntax highlighti

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 13, 2005, at 5:00 PM, has wrote: There's a paradox at work here. What newbies need from an IDE is _very different_ to what experienced users expect from one. I don't think I agree with this. Or rather, I don't really see why it should be true. I don't think the issue is the lack of a toddl

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac newbie

On Feb 13, 2005, at 6:23 PM, Bob Ippolito wrote: On Feb 13, 2005, at 17:53, Jon Schull wrote: So in prioritized order (numbers are prioritized; letter ordering is not) 1a. A peppy native aqua, crash-free text editor with optional syntax highlighting There are plenty of these, including but not

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac Python User Newbies

Kevin Walzer wrote: (Footnote two: ActiveState makes a commercial IDE for open-source languages, including Python, called Komodo: it's available for Windows and various Nixes, but not for the Mac. The only reason I can think of for this is market strategy, as Komodo is built on top of Mozilla; the

[Pythonmac-SIG] py2app documentation

I've started on some py2app documentation here: http://undefined.org/python/py2app.html Suggestions and contributions accepted. The documentation reflects the current svn trunk version of py2app and some if it may not correspond with whatever version you happen to be using. Despite what the do

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 13, 2005, at 6:11 PM, Hudson wrote: And that's the whole crux of the matter: Most people who come to Python aren't interested in learning IDEs, or Python, or anything else. The only thing they're interested in doing is creating cool software to do useful stuff, and every second they're ha

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac newbie

On Feb 13, 2005, at 17:53, Jon Schull wrote: |Let me conclude with a question: what *should* be in a newbie-friendly |> Python IDE? If you were writing one, what would you like to see in it? |>Well, that is a good point. I suppose everyone will have a differing |>opinion on that, particularly in

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 13, 2005, at 15:05, Mike Mellor wrote: On Feb 13, 2005, at 12:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 13, 2005, at 10:59 AM, Troy wrote: I for one, don't care to think of myself in the context of "begger", but more so in the context of uninitiated contributor. If developers, new to python, ha

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Louis Pecora wrote: Interesting comment. I do know that there is a lot of interest in Python in the scientific community. Some SIAM (Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics -- BIG coverage there) conferences have had special minisymposia on using Python for numerical coding. But most

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 13, 2005, at 12:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 13, 2005, at 10:59 AM, Troy wrote: I for one, don't care to think of myself in the context of "begger", but more so in the context of uninitiated contributor. If developers, new to python, have a barrier to entry, they may well walk of t

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 13, 2005, at 12:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just received 3 books on Python from Amazon. Every one of them starts with the line "this book does not teach you to program in Python, and assumes you already know how to do that." Perhaps it is just my own dumb luck, but that is the angle m

[Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac newbie

|Let me conclude with a question: what *should* be in a newbie-friendly |> Python IDE? If you were writing one, what would you like to see in it? |>Well, that is a good point. I suppose everyone will have a differing |>opinion on that, particularly in terms of goals. For me, I'd like to |>see a s

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

> software to do useful stuff, and every second they're having to sit > and learn some tedious crap before they can do that is a second > they're being kept from achieving that goal. On the other hand, I recently did a quick in-office tutorial of "order some pizza, throw one of our legacy perl sc

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Michael Hudson wrote: > [Many new developers] would > prefer to get started (at least) within the relative controlled environment of an IDE. However, it probably is a good deal less effort to explain to newcomers how to get going without an IDE thatn to write one. There's a paradox at work here.

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac Python User Newbies

On Feb 13, 2005, at 16:06, thor wrote: Well, that is a good point. I suppose everyone will have a differing opinion on that, particularly in terms of goals. For me, I'd like to see a single package, which includes a GUI designer, script editor with colorizing, debugger, interactive console, some so

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac Python User Newbies

Hi Troy, list! Well, that is a good point. I suppose everyone will have a differing opinion on that, particularly in terms of goals. For me, I'd like to see a single package, which includes a GUI designer, script editor with colorizing, debugger, interactive console, some sort of module browser for

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 13, 2005, at 14:29, Just van Rossum wrote: Bob Ippolito wrote: Another fun project is DrawBot by Just, it's a Proce55ing like program to learn about graphics. Yeah, DrawBot is really cool. Note that this is an unofficial fork that is NOT endorsed by me. In fa

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Bob Ippolito wrote: > > Another fun project is DrawBot by Just, it's a Proce55ing like > > program to learn about graphics. > > Yeah, DrawBot is really cool. Note that this is an unofficial fork that is NOT endorsed by me. In fact I have told the guy last week he

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Jon Schull wrote: Bob Ippolito wrote: Open source developers work on whatever they want or need to work on, so the particular problems you have will get solved when someone with the time, skill, and motivation to do so decides to scratch that itch. If you want to speed this proc

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Brendan Simons wrote: That was a big obstacle against many of the text editors I tried to use. TextWrangler, however, has good Python support, including cmd-r to run the present script. They've even written a parser for traceback, so when I get a runtime error, TW drops me right where I ma

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 13, 2005, at 9:23, Jon Schull wrote: Open source developers work on whatever they want or need to work on, so the particular problems you have will get solved when someone with the time, skill, and motivation to do so decides to scratch that itch. If you want to speed this process along,

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 13, 2005, at 13:19, Arthur Elsenaar wrote: On Feb 13, 2005, at 17:01, Troy Rollins wrote: Well, I've transitioned between tools like Director, REALbasic, and Revolution, and extremely quickly moved into creating non-trivial applications. With Python, it is far less condusive to "playing" and

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac Python User Newbies

On Feb 13, 2005, at 12:30, Troy Rollins wrote: Let me conclude with a question: what *should* be in a newbie-friendly Python IDE? If you were writing one, what would you like to see in it? Well, that is a good point. I suppose everyone will have a differing opinion on that, particularly in terms of

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 13, 2005, at 17:01, Troy Rollins wrote: Well, I've transitioned between tools like Director, REALbasic, and Revolution, and extremely quickly moved into creating non-trivial applications. With Python, it is far less condusive to "playing" and therefore seems to hold me somewhere around the p

[Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac newbie

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 |Let me conclude with a question: what *should* be in a newbie-friendly |> Python IDE? If you were writing one, what would you like to see in it? |>Well, that is a good point. I suppose everyone will have a differing |>opinion on that, particularly in t

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Troy Rollins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:12:13 +, Michael Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Troy Rollins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> >> > I for one, don't care to think of myself in the context of "begger", >> > but more so in the context of uninitiated contribu

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac Python User Newbies

> > Let me conclude with a question: what *should* be in a newbie-friendly > Python IDE? If you were writing one, what would you like to see in it? Well, that is a good point. I suppose everyone will have a differing opinion on that, particularly in terms of goals. For me, I'd like to see a singl

[Pythonmac-SIG] Re: Mac Python User Newbies

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 | | | | Subject: | Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies | From: | Troy Rollins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | Date: | Sun, 13 Feb 2005 10:59:10 -0500 | To: | pythonmac-sig@python.or

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:12:13 +, Michael Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Troy Rollins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I for one, don't care to think of myself in the context of "begger", > > but more so in the context of uninitiated contributor. If developers, > > new to python, have a ba

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Andrew Meit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Feb 13, 2005, at 10:59 AM, Troy wrote: > >> I for one, don't care to think of myself in the context of "begger", >> but more so in the context of uninitiated contributor. If developers, >> new to python, have a barrier to entry, they may well walk of to

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

On Feb 13, 2005, at 10:59 AM, Troy wrote: I for one, don't care to think of myself in the context of "begger", but more so in the context of uninitiated contributor. If developers, new to python, have a barrier to entry, they may well walk of to Ruby, or Lua... etc. At some point, I'd like to be co

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Troy Rollins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I for one, don't care to think of myself in the context of "begger", > but more so in the context of uninitiated contributor. If developers, > new to python, have a barrier to entry, they may well walk of to Ruby, > or Lua... etc. At some point, I'd like

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

> > .. beggars can't be choosers :) > > > > -bob [ comment in the context of distribution packages but it applies > > to the discussion of IDE chaos as well]. > > My comment: > > (1) In this business, beggars do choose, and they vote with their > feet. If a beginner-friendly IDE is not an inte

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Open source developers work on whatever they want or need to work on, so the particular problems you have will get solved when someone with the time, skill, and motivation to do so decides to scratch that itch. If you want to speed this process along, you have a few options: - Persuade a suitable

Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies

Bob Ippolito wrote: However, it would be entirely possible to build an "Enthought Python" type distribution for Mac OS X using these facilities as-is. At least one person is interested in creating such a distribution , but it's not ready y