Re: [Ql-Users] colour confusion
Op Sat, 25 Aug 2018 12:03:03 +0200 schreef pjwitte via Ql-Users : Thank you, guys. The confusion, it appears, was entirely mine. I'll spare you my various excuses; one of the many clues that should have alerted me to the error of my ways was in sp_titletextbg! :) I do wish, however, that there had been some "safe" way to put text on a stippled or striped background in other cases too. But thats ok. Im very glad of the palette system as it is. It has stood up well to the test of time! I can understand the "middleground" confusion. When you open a theme in QCoCo and click the INFO WINDOW item there is "ink_1" and "ink_2". The manual explains that ink_2 stands for middleground, probably called this way to avoid just this confusion. Not all themes that are around will fully exploit this, nor do many programs, I never did. So if some text seems missing or vague it's worth checking your theme in QCoCo to see if the ink_2 item is actually visible or different enough. QCoCo's "SYNCHRO" section will take the Outline ink & paper and copy this to other sections to quickly build a theme but syncing middleground with ink_1 is missing and I will add this to v1.63. Thanks Per for making this point. "sp_titletextbg" is also tricky. In some themes Title-ink and -paper are the same, using this as a contrast. But SuQcess doesn't use it so the title (database name) could become invisible with such a theme. For the current version a test has been added to make sure ink and paper are different. Text background is not featured in EasyPTR and should be created with overlapping Info Windows. Bob -- The BSJR QL software site at: "http://members.upc.nl/b.spelten/ql/; --- Deze e-mail is gecontroleerd op virussen door AVG. http://www.avg.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] colour confusion
Thank you, guys. The confusion, it appears, was entirely mine. I'll spare you my various excuses; one of the many clues that should have alerted me to the error of my ways was in sp_titletextbg! :) I do wish, however, that there had been some "safe" way to put text on a stippled or striped background in other cases too. But thats ok. Im very glad of the palette system as it is. It has stood up well to the test of time! Per On 24/08/2018 22:00, Dilwyn Jones via Ql-Users wrote: I tended to avoid "strip" colours in my WMAN2 programs and preferred to think of the middleground as a second INK colour, either for headings or for "sub-texts" such as prompts or warnings above menus. I never really knew if I was using it correctly (guess I was for title bars), but never really thought to query it at the time despite writing articles about it in QL Toady, Quanta, etc. Dilwyn -Original Message- From: Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018 4:37 PM To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Cc: Marcel Kilgus Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] colour confusion OK, I have a little bit more time and net here now. When I defined the colours 15 or so years ago I was asking the community for feedback, but I think most people didn‘t even quite understand the purpose yet, so there weren‘t really any changes to it. I defined the colours based on three things, the Windows 95 colour palette, the WMAN window structures and the colours needed to successfully port QPAC2 to them. Only one or two additions were made for other software like QD (which still has the editor colours in its own config block as I felt these were not generic enough in usage). With QPAC2 it was necessary to have a foreground colour and one other font colour, for which I created the name „middle ground“. This was part joke and part lack of a better name. Plus, nobody complained ;) I never realized this could be interpreted as STRIP colour, especially as I actually defined one „STRIP“ colour, too: „Title text background“. I don‘t have my laptop with me, but I don‘t think there is the concept of a „STRIP“ colour in the data structures, so I probably never really considered it. Sorry for the confusion! I was hoping that some day there would be a style guide, but adoption of the system palette was slow and finally I forgot about it. Still, many applications these days use them, so I consider them a success nonetheless. One more thing: they are defined somewhat conservatively because if you give too many options thing get even more messy. I know Per was always on the rather bleeding edge of WMAN UI development so probably struggled a lot more with them than anybody who simply duplicated the QJump style. Cheers, Marcel Am 24.08.2018 um 14:45 schrieb pjwitte via Ql-Users : There appears to be some inconsistency in the application of colour components of palettes by different software authors. Im referring in particular to the use of "middle ground". Correct me if Im wrong, but I assumed this option was reserved for use as the strip colour, ie the colour of the text background. Some authors do it this way, while others use the background (ie normally the paper colour) as text background. This can make texts like titles, info texts, and error messages unreadable, depending on the palettes used. While it is possible to devise palettes that will work in either case, it sort of cramps one's style a bit. And the whole motivation for going to the trouble of devising palettes and systems, one presumes, is to make things simpler, more consistent - less mickymouse. Unless it is already too late (ie the bug has become convention) it would be great if the next iteration of relevant documentation could firm up the convention that: background is equivalent to PAPER colour, middle ground is equivalent to STRIP colour, and foreground is equivalent to INK colour, if that is indeed the intention. Perhaps authors too, would try keep this in mind when releasing updates? Per ___ QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] colour confusion
I tended to avoid "strip" colours in my WMAN2 programs and preferred to think of the middleground as a second INK colour, either for headings or for "sub-texts" such as prompts or warnings above menus. I never really knew if I was using it correctly (guess I was for title bars), but never really thought to query it at the time despite writing articles about it in QL Toady, Quanta, etc. Dilwyn -Original Message- From: Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018 4:37 PM To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Cc: Marcel Kilgus Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] colour confusion OK, I have a little bit more time and net here now. When I defined the colours 15 or so years ago I was asking the community for feedback, but I think most people didn‘t even quite understand the purpose yet, so there weren‘t really any changes to it. I defined the colours based on three things, the Windows 95 colour palette, the WMAN window structures and the colours needed to successfully port QPAC2 to them. Only one or two additions were made for other software like QD (which still has the editor colours in its own config block as I felt these were not generic enough in usage). With QPAC2 it was necessary to have a foreground colour and one other font colour, for which I created the name „middle ground“. This was part joke and part lack of a better name. Plus, nobody complained ;) I never realized this could be interpreted as STRIP colour, especially as I actually defined one „STRIP“ colour, too: „Title text background“. I don‘t have my laptop with me, but I don‘t think there is the concept of a „STRIP“ colour in the data structures, so I probably never really considered it. Sorry for the confusion! I was hoping that some day there would be a style guide, but adoption of the system palette was slow and finally I forgot about it. Still, many applications these days use them, so I consider them a success nonetheless. One more thing: they are defined somewhat conservatively because if you give too many options thing get even more messy. I know Per was always on the rather bleeding edge of WMAN UI development so probably struggled a lot more with them than anybody who simply duplicated the QJump style. Cheers, Marcel Am 24.08.2018 um 14:45 schrieb pjwitte via Ql-Users : There appears to be some inconsistency in the application of colour components of palettes by different software authors. Im referring in particular to the use of "middle ground". Correct me if Im wrong, but I assumed this option was reserved for use as the strip colour, ie the colour of the text background. Some authors do it this way, while others use the background (ie normally the paper colour) as text background. This can make texts like titles, info texts, and error messages unreadable, depending on the palettes used. While it is possible to devise palettes that will work in either case, it sort of cramps one's style a bit. And the whole motivation for going to the trouble of devising palettes and systems, one presumes, is to make things simpler, more consistent - less mickymouse. Unless it is already too late (ie the bug has become convention) it would be great if the next iteration of relevant documentation could firm up the convention that: background is equivalent to PAPER colour, middle ground is equivalent to STRIP colour, and foreground is equivalent to INK colour, if that is indeed the intention. Perhaps authors too, would try keep this in mind when releasing updates? Per ___ QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] colour confusion
OK, I have a little bit more time and net here now. When I defined the colours 15 or so years ago I was asking the community for feedback, but I think most people didn‘t even quite understand the purpose yet, so there weren‘t really any changes to it. I defined the colours based on three things, the Windows 95 colour palette, the WMAN window structures and the colours needed to successfully port QPAC2 to them. Only one or two additions were made for other software like QD (which still has the editor colours in its own config block as I felt these were not generic enough in usage). With QPAC2 it was necessary to have a foreground colour and one other font colour, for which I created the name „middle ground“. This was part joke and part lack of a better name. Plus, nobody complained ;) I never realized this could be interpreted as STRIP colour, especially as I actually defined one „STRIP“ colour, too: „Title text background“. I don‘t have my laptop with me, but I don‘t think there is the concept of a „STRIP“ colour in the data structures, so I probably never really considered it. Sorry for the confusion! I was hoping that some day there would be a style guide, but adoption of the system palette was slow and finally I forgot about it. Still, many applications these days use them, so I consider them a success nonetheless. One more thing: they are defined somewhat conservatively because if you give too many options thing get even more messy. I know Per was always on the rather bleeding edge of WMAN UI development so probably struggled a lot more with them than anybody who simply duplicated the QJump style. Cheers, Marcel > Am 24.08.2018 um 14:45 schrieb pjwitte via Ql-Users > : > > There appears to be some inconsistency in the application of colour > components of palettes by different software authors. Im referring in > particular to the use of "middle ground". Correct me if Im wrong, but I > assumed this option was reserved for use as the strip colour, ie the colour > of the text background. Some authors do it this way, while others use the > background (ie normally the paper colour) as text background. This can make > texts like titles, info texts, and error messages unreadable, depending on > the palettes used. > > While it is possible to devise palettes that will work in either case, it > sort of cramps one's style a bit. And the whole motivation for going to the > trouble of devising palettes and systems, one presumes, is to make things > simpler, more consistent - less mickymouse. > > Unless it is already too late (ie the bug has become convention) it would be > great if the next iteration of relevant documentation could firm up the > convention that: > > background is equivalent to PAPER colour, > middle ground is equivalent to STRIP colour, and > foreground is equivalent to INK colour, > > if that is indeed the intention. > > Perhaps authors too, would try keep this in mind when releasing updates? > > Per > > > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] colour confusion
Some of my programs make use of Middle Ground as an alternative INK colour, as Marcel said. I never really knew what the "correct" usage of this was, so to have Marcel confirm it is very helpful. Dilwyn -Original Message- From: Marcel Kilgus via Ql-Users Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018 1:06 PM To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Cc: Marcel Kilgus Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] colour confusion No, „middle ground“ is supposed to be an alternative INK colour. Still on holiday, hope this works. Marcel Am 24.08.2018 um 14:45 schrieb pjwitte via Ql-Users : There appears to be some inconsistency in the application of colour components of palettes by different software authors. Im referring in particular to the use of "middle ground". Correct me if Im wrong, but I assumed this option was reserved for use as the strip colour, ie the colour of the text background. Some authors do it this way, while others use the background (ie normally the paper colour) as text background. This can make texts like titles, info texts, and error messages unreadable, depending on the palettes used. While it is possible to devise palettes that will work in either case, it sort of cramps one's style a bit. And the whole motivation for going to the trouble of devising palettes and systems, one presumes, is to make things simpler, more consistent - less mickymouse. Unless it is already too late (ie the bug has become convention) it would be great if the next iteration of relevant documentation could firm up the convention that: background is equivalent to PAPER colour, middle ground is equivalent to STRIP colour, and foreground is equivalent to INK colour, if that is indeed the intention. Perhaps authors too, would try keep this in mind when releasing updates? Per ___ QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List
Re: [Ql-Users] colour confusion
No, „middle ground“ is supposed to be an alternative INK colour. Still on holiday, hope this works. Marcel > Am 24.08.2018 um 14:45 schrieb pjwitte via Ql-Users > : > > There appears to be some inconsistency in the application of colour > components of palettes by different software authors. Im referring in > particular to the use of "middle ground". Correct me if Im wrong, but I > assumed this option was reserved for use as the strip colour, ie the colour > of the text background. Some authors do it this way, while others use the > background (ie normally the paper colour) as text background. This can make > texts like titles, info texts, and error messages unreadable, depending on > the palettes used. > > While it is possible to devise palettes that will work in either case, it > sort of cramps one's style a bit. And the whole motivation for going to the > trouble of devising palettes and systems, one presumes, is to make things > simpler, more consistent - less mickymouse. > > Unless it is already too late (ie the bug has become convention) it would be > great if the next iteration of relevant documentation could firm up the > convention that: > > background is equivalent to PAPER colour, > middle ground is equivalent to STRIP colour, and > foreground is equivalent to INK colour, > > if that is indeed the intention. > > Perhaps authors too, would try keep this in mind when releasing updates? > > Per > > > ___ > QL-Users Mailing List ___ QL-Users Mailing List
[Ql-Users] colour confusion
There appears to be some inconsistency in the application of colour components of palettes by different software authors. Im referring in particular to the use of "middle ground". Correct me if Im wrong, but I assumed this option was reserved for use as the strip colour, ie the colour of the text background. Some authors do it this way, while others use the background (ie normally the paper colour) as text background. This can make texts like titles, info texts, and error messages unreadable, depending on the palettes used. While it is possible to devise palettes that will work in either case, it sort of cramps one's style a bit. And the whole motivation for going to the trouble of devising palettes and systems, one presumes, is to make things simpler, more consistent - less mickymouse. Unless it is already too late (ie the bug has become convention) it would be great if the next iteration of relevant documentation could firm up the convention that: background is equivalent to PAPER colour, middle ground is equivalent to STRIP colour, and foreground is equivalent to INK colour, if that is indeed the intention. Perhaps authors too, would try keep this in mind when releasing updates? Per ___ QL-Users Mailing List
