Re: [qmailtoaster] QT / Courier-IMAP and Apple's Leopard (OS X 10.5)
Given that this statement was posted on Apple Insider: Mac OS X 10.5.1will also deliver a significant number of bug fixes relating to Leopard's email client, I would take a wait-and-see approach before we start suggesting that the bug is n the toaster side. W On Nov 7, 2007 4:58 PM, dnk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey all, I just upgraded my os x system to leopard, and setup my mail.appusing IMAP, and all seems to work great. My iphone also has never had any issues with the toasters at all. The only issue i have seen is the creation of imap folders - but I just do that through webmail if i need to. I have not been following the thread that much, but just wanted to report this. Regards, Dustin On Nov 4, 2007 6:16 PM, Harry Zink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 4, 2007, at 1:28 PM, Roxanne Sandesara wrote: Instead of simply assuming that the newest iteration of Apple's Mail client is at fault - or not - let's actually constructively try to determine wherein the problem does lie. I am afraid I myself do not yet have access to a Leopard installation, so I cannot perform these steps. But my suggestion would be: Agreed. 1) Attempt each of the functions that have yielded reproduceable problems thus far, Harry. 2) At each attempt, then check the log files generated by Courier-IMAP to see if you can find associated errors on that end. 3) If possible (not sure if you have a Mac developer's kit handy), seek out the log files being generated by Mail on the local machine, to see if you can find the recorded error messages when Mail makes these attempts. I'll see if I can capture some of this information. Someone else has done something similar: http://www.nabble.com/courier-imap-issues-on-deleting-mails-with-Mail.app-on-OS-X-10.5%09%28leopard%29---tf4698374.htmlhttp://www.nabble.com/courier-imap-issues-on-deleting-mails-with-Mail.app-on-OS-X-10.5%2509%2528leopard%2529---tf4698374.html In the meantime... If we can gather the error messages, we may be able to determine, at the least, what the miscommunication is between Mail and Courier-IMAP. It would seem clear that Mail is sending commands to the IMAP server. And that these commands are not being understood by QMT's Courier-IMAP server. The error message displayed on the client's side is: The IMAP command UID COPY failed for the mailbox INBOX with this server error: Error in IMAP command received by server... other errors reported, when trying to move files into a folder, was: The IMAP command APPEND (to Drafts) failed with server error: Invalid mailbox name.. This appears oddly similar to problems encountered back under OS X 10.3 (Panther), whereas the problem was also related to the naming of the INBOX (as far as I recalled, it *had* to be all caps INBOX, or else problems would manifest, and *again* this was restricted to Courier-IMAP implementations. Details: http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=2003111411334739 http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg02461.html http://www.nabble.com/courier-imap-issues-on-deleting-mails-with-Mail.app-on-OS-X-10.5%09%28leopard%29---tf4698374.html http://www.nabble.com/courier-imap-issues-on-deleting-mails-with-Mail.app-on-OS-X-10.5%2509%2528leopard%2529---tf4698374.html Let's find out what is being sent and make sure that it is in fact correct. If it is in fact correct, then it can be presented as an error to those maintaining Courier-IMAP for resolution. If it is not, but the other systems you have tested against are managing to account for its imperfect structure, then at least you have something to then present to Apple so that they can make the attempt to track down and fix the problem on their end. Seeing as how some of the above are taken from the Courier-IMAP mailing list, it is starting to get on their radar. How it will be addressed is another issue. Apple may be standards-compliant nearly to a fault, but they are not infallible. Let us approach the situation calmly, rationally, and methodically. Agreed. It just irks me when the standard response to bringing attention to an issue, or potential issue is Tell Apple to fix their shit (which is the knee-jerk reaction I received from 2 other sources earlier today). As for me, in the immediate future, I moved some affected accounts of clients using Leopard and/or iPhones to my Postfix/Dovecot combination, which appears to be doing just fine, and is reporting no issues. Harry
Re: [qmailtoaster] QT / Courier-IMAP and Apple's Leopard (OS X 10.5)
Given that this statement was posted on Apple Insider: Mac OS X 10.5.1will also deliver a significant number of bug fixes relating to Leopard's email client, I would take a wait-and-see approach before we start suggesting that the bug is n the toaster side. W On Nov 7, 2007 4:58 PM, dnk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey all, I just upgraded my os x system to leopard, and setup my mail.appusing IMAP, and all seems to work great. My iphone also has never had any issues with the toasters at all. The only issue i have seen is the creation of imap folders - but I just do that through webmail if i need to. I have not been following the thread that much, but just wanted to report this. Regards, Dustin On Nov 4, 2007 6:16 PM, Harry Zink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 4, 2007, at 1:28 PM, Roxanne Sandesara wrote: Instead of simply assuming that the newest iteration of Apple's Mail client is at fault - or not - let's actually constructively try to determine wherein the problem does lie. I am afraid I myself do not yet have access to a Leopard installation, so I cannot perform these steps. But my suggestion would be: Agreed. 1) Attempt each of the functions that have yielded reproduceable problems thus far, Harry. 2) At each attempt, then check the log files generated by Courier-IMAP to see if you can find associated errors on that end. 3) If possible (not sure if you have a Mac developer's kit handy), seek out the log files being generated by Mail on the local machine, to see if you can find the recorded error messages when Mail makes these attempts. I'll see if I can capture some of this information. Someone else has done something similar: http://www.nabble.com/courier-imap-issues-on-deleting-mails-with-Mail.app-on-OS-X-10.5%09%28leopard%29---tf4698374.htmlhttp://www.nabble.com/courier-imap-issues-on-deleting-mails-with-Mail.app-on-OS-X-10.5%2509%2528leopard%2529---tf4698374.html In the meantime... If we can gather the error messages, we may be able to determine, at the least, what the miscommunication is between Mail and Courier-IMAP. It would seem clear that Mail is sending commands to the IMAP server. And that these commands are not being understood by QMT's Courier-IMAP server. The error message displayed on the client's side is: The IMAP command UID COPY failed for the mailbox INBOX with this server error: Error in IMAP command received by server... other errors reported, when trying to move files into a folder, was: The IMAP command APPEND (to Drafts) failed with server error: Invalid mailbox name.. This appears oddly similar to problems encountered back under OS X 10.3 (Panther), whereas the problem was also related to the naming of the INBOX (as far as I recalled, it *had* to be all caps INBOX, or else problems would manifest, and *again* this was restricted to Courier-IMAP implementations. Details: http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=2003111411334739 http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg02461.html http://www.nabble.com/courier-imap-issues-on-deleting-mails-with-Mail.app-on-OS-X-10.5%09%28leopard%29---tf4698374.html http://www.nabble.com/courier-imap-issues-on-deleting-mails-with-Mail.app-on-OS-X-10.5%2509%2528leopard%2529---tf4698374.html Let's find out what is being sent and make sure that it is in fact correct. If it is in fact correct, then it can be presented as an error to those maintaining Courier-IMAP for resolution. If it is not, but the other systems you have tested against are managing to account for its imperfect structure, then at least you have something to then present to Apple so that they can make the attempt to track down and fix the problem on their end. Seeing as how some of the above are taken from the Courier-IMAP mailing list, it is starting to get on their radar. How it will be addressed is another issue. Apple may be standards-compliant nearly to a fault, but they are not infallible. Let us approach the situation calmly, rationally, and methodically. Agreed. It just irks me when the standard response to bringing attention to an issue, or potential issue is Tell Apple to fix their shit (which is the knee-jerk reaction I received from 2 other sources earlier today). As for me, in the immediate future, I moved some affected accounts of clients using Leopard and/or iPhones to my Postfix/Dovecot combination, which appears to be doing just fine, and is reporting no issues. Harry
Re: [qmailtoaster] QT / Courier-IMAP and Apple's Leopard (OS X 10.5)
My feeling is that you are right, it should be looked into, although this is the wrong forum to post bugs in the Leopard mail client. W On 11/3/07, Harry Zink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, of course not, which is why I carefully worded my subject line. I've used it under Tiger and its Mail Client (Mail.app v2.0) since Day One, and never had an issue. This issue only surfaced, and was reported in multiple places, since the release of Leopard 10.5 and the associated Mail Client (Mail.app v3.0). Harry On Nov 3, 2007 9:02 PM, dnk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: did you notice this issue with older versions of the apple mail client? Dustin On 11/3/07, Harry Zink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems there's a problem between QT and Apple's Leopard Mail client, or rather he problem is between the utilized Courier-IMAP version in QmailToaster, and Apple's Mail client. Users will find themselves unable to delete files and folder under certain circumstances. I was able to replicate this. Current work-arounds don't always work, and are usually on the mail-client end - hence, not really acceptable as genuine fixes. I also tested this with a separate installation on a Postfix server, running Cirrus-IMAP, and everything works as it should (no surprise, since Apple's OS X Server also uses Cirrus). While there may be some work-arounds in the short term, personally I see a better long-term solution to be to replace Courier-IMAP with the Cirrus solution - aside from fixing this issue, it also has a smaller footprint, and much better efficiency (i.e. less load on a server with a larger n umber of users). Not sure if this has already shown up on any radar, but wanted to share a general head's up, and hoping that a solution may be forthcoming. Harry - QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted http://www.vr.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted http://www.vr.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted http://www.vr.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [qmailtoaster] QT / Courier-IMAP and Apple's Leopard (OS X 10.5)
Pardon me for butting in. I am far from a QMT expert, but I am a Mac enthusiast and also a realist. Instead of simply assuming that the newest iteration of Apple's Mail client is at fault - or not - let's actually constructively try to determine wherein the problem does lie. I am afraid I myself do not yet have access to a Leopard installation, so I cannot perform these steps. But my suggestion would be: 1) Attempt each of the functions that have yielded reproduceable problems thus far, Harry. 2) At each attempt, then check the log files generated by Courier- IMAP to see if you can find associated errors on that end. 3) If possible (not sure if you have a Mac developer's kit handy), seek out the log files being generated by Mail on the local machine, to see if you can find the recorded error messages when Mail makes these attempts. If we can gather the error messages, we may be able to determine, at the least, what the miscommunication is between Mail and Courier- IMAP. It would seem clear that Mail is sending commands to the IMAP server. And that these commands are not being understood by QMT's Courier-IMAP server. Let's find out what is being sent and make sure that it is in fact correct. If it is in fact correct, then it can be presented as an error to those maintaining Courier-IMAP for resolution. If it is not, but the other systems you have tested against are managing to account for its imperfect structure, then at least you have something to then present to Apple so that they can make the attempt to track down and fix the problem on their end. Apple may be standards-compliant nearly to a fault, but they are not infallible. Let us approach the situation calmly, rationally, and methodically. Roxanne On Nov 4, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Harry Zink wrote: It's not a bug, as it works just fine with the Postfix server (i.e. Dovecot). It (Apple's Mail Client) also works fine with Apple's dot- Mac and OS X Mail Server(obviously), but also Google's IMAP services, Yahoo's IMAP services, and others. This hardly qualifies as a unique bug on Apple's end (particularly since their apps are standards compliant to a fault, almost). I really do feel that this kind of dismissive attitude of things related to Apple and Mac OS X is what stands in the way of pro- active, and positive development, sadly. Harry On Nov 4, 2007, at 6:21 AM, Warren Melnick wrote: My feeling is that you are right, it should be looked into, although this is the wrong forum to post bugs in the Leopard mail client. W On 11/3/07, Harry Zink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:No, of course not, which is why I carefully worded my subject line. I've used it under Tiger and its Mail Client (Mail.app v2.0) since Day One, and never had an issue. This issue only surfaced, and was reported in multiple places, since the release of Leopard 10.5 and the associated Mail Client (Mail.app v3.0). Harry On Nov 3, 2007 9:02 PM, dnk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: did you notice this issue with older versions of the apple mail client? Dustin On 11/3/07, Harry Zink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems there's a problem between QT and Apple's Leopard Mail client, or rather he problem is between the utilized Courier-IMAP version in QmailToaster, and Apple's Mail client. Users will find themselves unable to delete files and folder under certain circumstances. I was able to replicate this. Current work-arounds don't always work, and are usually on the mail- client end - hence, not really acceptable as genuine fixes. I also tested this with a separate installation on a Postfix server, running Cirrus-IMAP, and everything works as it should (no surprise, since Apple's OS X Server also uses Cirrus). While there may be some work-arounds in the short term, personally I see a better long- term solution to be to replace Courier-IMAP with the Cirrus solution - aside from fixing this issue, it also has a smaller footprint, and much better efficiency (i.e. less load on a server with a larger n umber of users). Not sure if this has already shown up on any radar, but wanted to share a general head's up, and hoping that a solution may be forthcoming. Harry - QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted http://www.vr.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: qmailtoaster-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: qmailtoaster-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted http://www.vr.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: qmailtoaster-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: qmailtoaster-list- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [qmailtoaster] QT / Courier-IMAP and Apple's Leopard (OS X 10.5)
It really would help to know what goes wrong. Kinda difficult to even consider fixing things without that.. Some googling only shows problems with deleting emails, and a simple fix to not store trash on the server.. I do not have leopard and will not have this anytime soon I think, my mac is not fast enough.. Anyways, I do not see anyone having a dismissive attitude of things related to apple and osx.. Nor did I see this before... JP - Original Message - From: Harry Zink To: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] QT / Courier-IMAP and Apple's Leopard (OS X 10.5) It's not a bug, as it works just fine with the Postfix server (i.e. Dovecot). It (Apple's Mail Client) also works fine with Apple's dot-Mac and OS X Mail Server(obviously), but also Google's IMAP services, Yahoo's IMAP services, and others. This hardly qualifies as a unique bug on Apple's end (particularly since their apps are standards compliant to a fault, almost). I really do feel that this kind of dismissive attitude of things related to Apple and Mac OS X is what stands in the way of pro-active, and positive development, sadly. Harry On Nov 4, 2007, at 6:21 AM, Warren Melnick wrote: My feeling is that you are right, it should be looked into, although this is the wrong forum to post bugs in the Leopard mail client. W On 11/3/07, Harry Zink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, of course not, which is why I carefully worded my subject line. I've used it under Tiger and its Mail Client (Mail.app v2.0) since Day One, and never had an issue. This issue only surfaced, and was reported in multiple places, since the release of Leopard 10.5 and the associated Mail Client (Mail.app v3.0). Harry On Nov 3, 2007 9:02 PM, dnk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: did you notice this issue with older versions of the apple mail client? Dustin On 11/3/07, Harry Zink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems there's a problem between QT and Apple's Leopard Mail client, or rather he problem is between the utilized Courier-IMAP version in QmailToaster, and Apple's Mail client. Users will find themselves unable to delete files and folder under certain circumstances. I was able to replicate this. Current work-arounds don't always work, and are usually on the mail-client end - hence, not really acceptable as genuine fixes. I also tested this with a separate installation on a Postfix server, running Cirrus-IMAP, and everything works as it should (no surprise, since Apple's OS X Server also uses Cirrus). While there may be some work-arounds in the short term, personally I see a better long-term solution to be to replace Courier-IMAP with the Cirrus solution - aside from fixing this issue, it also has a smaller footprint, and much better efficiency (i.e. less load on a server with a larger n umber of users). Not sure if this has already shown up on any radar, but wanted to share a general head's up, and hoping that a solution may be forthcoming. Harry - QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted http://www.vr.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted http://www.vr.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted http://www.vr.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [qmailtoaster] QT / Courier-IMAP and Apple's Leopard (OS X 10.5)
On Nov 4, 2007, at 1:28 PM, Roxanne Sandesara wrote: Instead of simply assuming that the newest iteration of Apple's Mail client is at fault - or not - let's actually constructively try to determine wherein the problem does lie. I am afraid I myself do not yet have access to a Leopard installation, so I cannot perform these steps. But my suggestion would be: Agreed. 1) Attempt each of the functions that have yielded reproduceable problems thus far, Harry. 2) At each attempt, then check the log files generated by Courier- IMAP to see if you can find associated errors on that end. 3) If possible (not sure if you have a Mac developer's kit handy), seek out the log files being generated by Mail on the local machine, to see if you can find the recorded error messages when Mail makes these attempts. I'll see if I can capture some of this information. Someone else has done something similar: http://www.nabble.com/courier-imap-issues-on-deleting-mails-with-Mail.app-on-OS-X-10.5%09%28leopard%29---tf4698374.html In the meantime... If we can gather the error messages, we may be able to determine, at the least, what the miscommunication is between Mail and Courier- IMAP. It would seem clear that Mail is sending commands to the IMAP server. And that these commands are not being understood by QMT's Courier-IMAP server. The error message displayed on the client's side is: The IMAP command UID COPY failed for the mailbox INBOX with this server error: Error in IMAP command received by server... other errors reported, when trying to move files into a folder, was: The IMAP command “APPEND” (to Drafts) failed with server error: Invalid mailbox name.. This appears oddly similar to problems encountered back under OS X 10.3 (Panther), whereas the problem was also related to the naming of the INBOX (as far as I recalled, it *had* to be all caps INBOX, or else problems would manifest, and *again* this was restricted to Courier-IMAP implementations. Details: http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=2003111411334739 http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg02461.html http://www.nabble.com/courier-imap-issues-on-deleting-mails-with-Mail.app-on-OS-X-10.5%09%28leopard%29---tf4698374.html Let's find out what is being sent and make sure that it is in fact correct. If it is in fact correct, then it can be presented as an error to those maintaining Courier-IMAP for resolution. If it is not, but the other systems you have tested against are managing to account for its imperfect structure, then at least you have something to then present to Apple so that they can make the attempt to track down and fix the problem on their end. Seeing as how some of the above are taken from the Courier-IMAP mailing list, it is starting to get on their radar. How it will be addressed is another issue. Apple may be standards-compliant nearly to a fault, but they are not infallible. Let us approach the situation calmly, rationally, and methodically. Agreed. It just irks me when the standard response to bringing attention to an issue, or potential issue is Tell Apple to fix their shit (which is the knee-jerk reaction I received from 2 other sources earlier today). As for me, in the immediate future, I moved some affected accounts of clients using Leopard and/or iPhones to my Postfix/Dovecot combination, which appears to be doing just fine, and is reporting no issues. Harry
[qmailtoaster] QT / Courier-IMAP and Apple's Leopard (OS X 10.5)
Seems there's a problem between QT and Apple's Leopard Mail client, or rather he problem is between the utilized Courier-IMAP version in QmailToaster, and Apple's Mail client. Users will find themselves unable to delete files and folder under certain circumstances. I was able to replicate this. Current work-arounds don't always work, and are usually on the mail-client end - hence, not really acceptable as genuine fixes. I also tested this with a separate installation on a Postfix server, running Cirrus-IMAP, and everything works as it should (no surprise, since Apple's OS X Server also uses Cirrus). While there may be some work-arounds in the short term, personally I see a better long-term solution to be to replace Courier-IMAP with the Cirrus solution - aside from fixing this issue, it also has a smaller footprint, and much better efficiency (i.e. less load on a server with a larger n umber of users). Not sure if this has already shown up on any radar, but wanted to share a general head's up, and hoping that a solution may be forthcoming. Harry - QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted http://www.vr.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [qmailtoaster] QT / Courier-IMAP and Apple's Leopard (OS X 10.5)
did you notice this issue with older versions of the apple mail client? Dustin On 11/3/07, Harry Zink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems there's a problem between QT and Apple's Leopard Mail client, or rather he problem is between the utilized Courier-IMAP version in QmailToaster, and Apple's Mail client. Users will find themselves unable to delete files and folder under certain circumstances. I was able to replicate this. Current work-arounds don't always work, and are usually on the mail-client end - hence, not really acceptable as genuine fixes. I also tested this with a separate installation on a Postfix server, running Cirrus-IMAP, and everything works as it should (no surprise, since Apple's OS X Server also uses Cirrus). While there may be some work-arounds in the short term, personally I see a better long-term solution to be to replace Courier-IMAP with the Cirrus solution - aside from fixing this issue, it also has a smaller footprint, and much better efficiency (i.e. less load on a server with a larger n umber of users). Not sure if this has already shown up on any radar, but wanted to share a general head's up, and hoping that a solution may be forthcoming. Harry - QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted http://www.vr.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted http://www.vr.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [qmailtoaster] QT / Courier-IMAP and Apple's Leopard (OS X 10.5)
No, of course not, which is why I carefully worded my subject line. I've used it under Tiger and its Mail Client (Mail.app v2.0) since Day One, and never had an issue. This issue only surfaced, and was reported in multiple places, since the release of Leopard 10.5 and the associated Mail Client (Mail.app v3.0). Harry On Nov 3, 2007 9:02 PM, dnk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: did you notice this issue with older versions of the apple mail client? Dustin On 11/3/07, Harry Zink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems there's a problem between QT and Apple's Leopard Mail client, or rather he problem is between the utilized Courier-IMAP version in QmailToaster, and Apple's Mail client. Users will find themselves unable to delete files and folder under certain circumstances. I was able to replicate this. Current work-arounds don't always work, and are usually on the mail-client end - hence, not really acceptable as genuine fixes. I also tested this with a separate installation on a Postfix server, running Cirrus-IMAP, and everything works as it should (no surprise, since Apple's OS X Server also uses Cirrus). While there may be some work-arounds in the short term, personally I see a better long-term solution to be to replace Courier-IMAP with the Cirrus solution - aside from fixing this issue, it also has a smaller footprint, and much better efficiency (i.e. less load on a server with a larger n umber of users). Not sure if this has already shown up on any radar, but wanted to share a general head's up, and hoping that a solution may be forthcoming. Harry - QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted http://www.vr.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted http://www.vr.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - QmailToaster hosted by: VR Hosted http://www.vr.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
