Re: [qubes-users] High spec laptop for Qubes OS

[taii...@gmx.com]

On 03/02/2018 01:27 AM, Tim W wrote:


No it does not yet it gets repeatedly mentioned to where it makes people think 
its viable option which it is not.

The op wants a high end laptop which also eliminates all the old coreboot 
laptops.  as he wants a laptop it also removes the asusu amd server board 
desktop builds.  Best bet is lenovo thinkpad with the highest ram and processor 
combo and ssd drive/s.  It will likely give the best compatibility
I guarantee no one can tell the difference between a quad core ivy 
bridge W520 and whatever the latest crap lenovo is selling.


Secure laptop.
Slightly faster laptop.

Pick one.

I am tired of people like you who recommend choices that are literally 
dangerous - lenovo adds backdoors and virii to their modern hardware, 
and they have done so again and again even after getting caught multiple 
times.


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Re: [qubes-users] High spec laptop for Qubes OS

[Tim W]

On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 8:36:02 PM UTC-5, Francesco wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 10:52 PM, tai...@gmx.com  wrote:
> I suggest a lenovo W520, as it supports coreboot with open source hw init and 
> me cleaner (which nerfs but does not disable ME - it is impossible to disable 
> ME, dell/purism are lying) you can also use an egpu for additional graphics 
> power and install an ivy bridge processor for better power figures.
> 
> 
> 
> I would also look in to the TALOS 2 (OpenPOWER9) which is a very high 
> performance owner controlled workstation with libre firmware for both the 
> board and BMC (even the microcode is owner controlled and has documentation 
> supplied, there is absolutely no hardware code signing enforcement).
> 
> POWER is now the worlds only owner controlled performance cpu arch due to 
> both intel and AMD adopting black box supervisor processors and hardware code 
> signing enforcement.
> 
> https://raptorcs.com
> 
> It also supports CAPI and PCI-e 4.0, which I imagine might interest you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But does Talos 2 work with Xen? It seems it does not:
> https://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t=j==s=web=1=rja=8=0ahUKEwig_reIlsLZAhXK2VMKHRlvC6cQFggrMAA=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsg%2Fqubes-users%2FbqRSuU3T6MA%2Fn9tFozKsAQAJ=AOvVaw2aUCCm88WSdcxkcCqWhZbe

No it does not yet it gets repeatedly mentioned to where it makes people think 
its viable option which it is not.  

The op wants a high end laptop which also eliminates all the old coreboot 
laptops.  as he wants a laptop it also removes the asusu amd server board 
desktop builds.  Best bet is lenovo thinkpad with the highest ram and processor 
combo and ssd drive/s.  It will likely give the best compatibility

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Re: [qubes-users] High spec laptop for Qubes OS

[Franz]

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 10:52 PM, taii...@gmx.com  wrote:

> I suggest a lenovo W520, as it supports coreboot with open source hw init
> and me cleaner (which nerfs but does not disable ME - it is impossible to
> disable ME, dell/purism are lying) you can also use an egpu for additional
> graphics power and install an ivy bridge processor for better power figures.
>
> I would also look in to the TALOS 2 (OpenPOWER9) which is a very high
> performance owner controlled workstation with libre firmware for both the
> board and BMC (even the microcode is owner controlled and has documentation
> supplied, there is absolutely no hardware code signing enforcement).
> POWER is now the worlds only owner controlled performance cpu arch due to
> both intel and AMD adopting black box supervisor processors and hardware
> code signing enforcement.
> https://raptorcs.com
> It also supports CAPI and PCI-e 4.0, which I imagine might interest you.
>
>
But does Talos 2 work with Xen? It seems it does not:
https://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t=j==s=web=1=rja=8=0ahUKEwig_reIlsLZAhXK2VMKHRlvC6cQFggrMAA=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsg%2Fqubes-users%2FbqRSuU3T6MA%2Fn9tFozKsAQAJ=AOvVaw2aUCCm88WSdcxkcCqWhZbe

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AW: Re: [qubes-users] High spec laptop for Qubes OS

['[799]' via qubes-users]

Hello Taiidan,

 Original-Nachricht 
An 26. Feb. 2018, 00:33, taii...@gmx.com schrieb:

> In terms of laptops, the most free is the
> Lenovo G505S which can run
> qubes (no ME/PSP) although it doesn't have
> an eGPU capability and max ram is 16GB so
> the best choice would be the W520 if one
> wants an eGPU capable laptop with 32GB
> max ram.

Depending on the use case I would always also think about battery runtime, 
something where the W520 fails.
I would always always think about a x230 which runs so well under Qubes and can 
be coreboot'ed.

Out of interest, why are you not recommending the W540? I have both (x230 and 
W540) and the biggest benefit of the W540 is the high resolution display.
Unfortunately it doesn't support Coreboot and build quality is not as nice as 
the older x230 series.

[799]

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Re: AW: Re: [qubes-users] High spec laptop for Qubes OS

[taii...@gmx.com]

On 02/25/2018 06:41 PM, [799] wrote:


Hello Taiidan,

 Original-Nachricht 
An 26. Feb. 2018, 00:33, taii...@gmx.com schrieb:


In terms of laptops, the most free is the
Lenovo G505S which can run
qubes (no ME/PSP) although it doesn't have
an eGPU capability and max ram is 16GB so
the best choice would be the W520 if one
wants an eGPU capable laptop with 32GB
max ram.

Depending on the use case I would always also think about battery runtime, 
something where the W520 fails.
I would always always think about a x230 which runs so well under Qubes and can 
be coreboot'ed.

The x230 only supports 16gb ram and he said he wants more.

Out of interest, why are you not recommending the W540?
Obviously because not only does it have ME it also has no open source 
firmware, it also has the crappy chiclet keyboard and you can't swap it 
out like one can with a x230/t430 etc.

I have both (x230 and W540) and the biggest benefit of the W540 is the high 
resolution display.
Unfortunately it doesn't support Coreboot and build quality is not as nice as 
the older x230 series.


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Re: [qubes-users] High spec laptop for Qubes OS

[taii...@gmx.com]

On 02/25/2018 06:06 PM, Franz wrote:


But does Talos 2 work with Xen? It seems it does not:
https://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t=j==s=web=1=rja=8=0ahUKEwig_reIlsLZAhXK2VMKHRlvC6cQFggrMAA=https%3A%2F%2Fgroups.google.com%2Fd%2Fmsg%2Fqubes-users%2FbqRSuU3T6MA%2Fn9tFozKsAQAJ=AOvVaw2aUCCm88WSdcxkcCqWhZbe
Yeah unfortunately Xen doesn't support POWER and they have rebuffed 
advances from IBM and Raptor offering assistance to support it.


I had suggested it as their desired use-cases isn't really possible in 
qubes, according to various other people it is nearly impossible to 
attach a gpu to a qubes VM compared with using QEMU-KVM.


In terms of laptops, the most free is the Lenovo G505S which can run 
qubes (no ME/PSP) although it doesn't have an eGPU capability and max 
ram is 16GB so the best choice would be the W520 if one wants an eGPU 
capable laptop with 32GB max ram.


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Re: [qubes-users] High spec laptop for Qubes OS

[Yuraeitha]

On Sunday, February 25, 2018 at 8:46:52 AM UTC+1, tai...@gmx.com wrote:
> On 02/24/2018 11:50 PM, Yuraeitha wrote:
> 
> > Qubes OS on normal hardware (fulfilling current security hardware 
> > requirements) is still a much more secure alternative than 
> > Windows/Mac/Linux OS's, even on compromised hardware from i.e. 
> > Intel/AMD/etc. I agree there still are very big security/privacy problems 
> > in hardware, there definitely is. But all things considered, if you're not 
> > trying to be immune from state-level/advanced hacker attacks, then it may 
> > be too extreme to go that far just yet.
> Why not have max security all the time? It isn't difficult.
> 
> Besides if the TALOS 2 isn't successful it will be the end of high 
> performance owner controlled hardware, so maxing out today is important 
> so you will be able to tomorrow.
> >   Unless of course, you are a high profile target, or even a medium-level 
> > target. Don't piss off, or grab unwanted attention of dangerously 
> > resourceful people.
> "Avoid pissing people off" is bad advice and simply no fun - if your 
> security plan counts on that then you don't have any security at all.
> > If you're a normal user, and you don't grab unwanted attention, then you 
> > should be okay in this time and day, however, that may change down the line 
> > as attack vectors improve and advance, and increasingly become mainstream 
> > for less skilled hackers to use. At which point, it's not the few handful 
> > really skilled hackers you need to worry about, but script kiddie "hackers" 
> > around every city-block.
> >
> > Frankly it's impossible to get the perfect hardware to our desires. 
> > Whatever your needs may be, you need to take everything into account. The 
> > current situation however, I'd think if you're low profile (normal person 
> > with no unwanted attention), then you should be fine from a security 
> > perspective, with most laptops that meet the current hardware 
> > specifications.
> I would argue that the TALOS 2 is perfect, it is the only system that 
> has freedom, security and performance - you could even play videogames 
> on it if they were compiled for POWER.
> Its featureset and performance are much better than what intel and AMD 
> are selling rather than being simply equivilant - it isn't at all 
> "heavily limited".
> 
> A wintel skylake system "meets the current specifications" but I could 
> cause a commotion and steal your encryption keys while you are 
> distracted by plugging in a USB debugger because intel "forgot" to 
> disable that feature in shipping chipsets.
> > It's the same if you climb Mount Everest or venture into a wild jungle, no 
> > matter how much you prepare, there will always be risk. There are no 
> > perfect hardware, while we can do better, currently we are heavily limited.
> 
> I run open source firmware on all of my computers and I sacrifice 
> absolutely nothing - I play new games at max settings in a VM on my 
> KGPE-D16 and if I wanted to I could install OpenBMC for remote lights 
> out access just like on a mainstream proprietary system - it is feature 
> equivilant.
> 
> I highly doubt that anyone here would prefer silly apple aesthetics and 
> total lack of features/expansion ports over a secure functional computer 
> and I for one prefer the industrial designs of the older thinkpads and 
> latitudes.
> 
> On 02/24/2018 11:49 PM, vel...@tutamail.com wrote:
> > I think a Lenovo is the way to go...the Qubes developers use them, the 
> > X1/Gen5 was mentioned as being popular with them. I googled and Max Ram is 
> > 16, however I went from 8-12 and more then satisfied with improvement. I 
> > wanted the X1 but thought it was out of my budget and thought I would look 
> > too cool using it:)
> The W520 supports 32GB, the T420 and X230 16GB.
> 
> The W520, T420 and X230 (with x220 keyboard) are all decent mobile 
> workstation performance choices and they support egpu via expresscard.
> The G505S is more free (no ME/PSP) but it doesn't have expresscard and 
> the build quality is not as nice.
> 
> >> Notes:
> >> There isn't much point using qubes with hardware that has ME/PSP,
> > Is the ME/PSP risk more from a Governement/Intel threat or are the 
> > vulnerabilities with these features available to other threat vectors as 
> > well? Would appreciate your thoughts...
> Rumor has it that signing keys for all ME versions and local HECI 
> exploit mechanisms are being traded on obscure internet forums and being 
> used to attack the usual targets (fortune 500, journalists, political 
> types etc)
> 
> I highly doubt you I or anyone posting here is important enough to get a 
> specific exploit package targeted to us by a government actor - you 
> gotta have something worth stealing such as industrial processes, 
> proprietary code to some important program, blueprint etc, for instance 
> the chinese government has many hacking teams dedicated to industrial 
> espionage but just because you aren't a 

Re: [qubes-users] High spec laptop for Qubes OS

[Mike Keehan]

On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 01:11:16 +
a...@adammccarthy.co.uk wrote:

> 
> 
> I'm going to buy a new laptop with a higher spec which should
> hopefully handle things well. The following laptops are my final five
> contenders. They all have a discrete GPU, which I'm hoping to
> passthrough to a VM for playing streaming video (h264/h265/vp9
> codecs). 
> 
> I get the impression from the HCL that they should all work fine as
> long as I replace any non-Intel wifi m.2 sticks with an Intel 8265.
> Do you have any thoughts on whether one would be more appropriate
> than another?
> 
> Dell XPS 15 9560 (2017)
> Intel i7-7700HQ Quad Core
> 32GB RAM
> 512GB M.2 NVMe
> Intel + NVIDIA GTX 1050
> 
> Dell XPS 15 2018
> Intel i7-8705G Quad Core
> 32GB RAM
> 512GB M.2 NVMe
> Intel + Radeon RX Vega M GL
> 
> Dell Precision 5520
> Intel Xeon E3-1505M v6 Quad Core
> 32GB RAM
> 512GB M.2 NVMe
> Intel + Nvidia Quadro M1200
> 
> Lenovo P51
> Intel Xeon E3-1505M v6 Quad Core
> 32GB RAM
> 512GB M.2 NVMe
> Intel + NVIDIA Quadro M2200
> 
> Razer Blade
> Intel i7-7700HQ Quad Core
> 16GB RAM
> 512GB M.2 NVMe
> Intel + NVIDIA GTX 1060
>

Hi Adam,

I use the Dell XPS 15 9560 (2017) which works well, but the Nvidia chip
does not work with the nouveau driver at all (yet - might do in future).
I have not tried using Nvidia's own driver.  My screen is 1920x1080,
and handles HD video OK  but with the occasional slight tear.  CPU use
runs to about 30% avg on a HD video.

Best of luck,

  Mike.


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Re: [qubes-users] High spec laptop for Qubes OS

['awokd' via qubes-users]

On Sun, February 25, 2018 1:52 am, taii...@gmx.com wrote:
> You can't pass through a
> laptop GPU like that as both the iGPU and dGPU considered a primary video
> adapters - you would have to purchase an eGPU if you want a GPU in a VM
> and you also need a secondary usb controller, monitor, audio device etc.

If you plan on passthrough, the GTX laptops should be removed from the
list. Nvidia intentionally cripples their drivers to force you to purchase
their more expensive/even higher profit margin products if you want
passthrough.

Taiidan, I thought the main problem with passthrough on laptops was that
they didn't have a hardware switch to toggle which card is driving the
(built in) monitor? Since the OP is just planning on using it for CUDA and
wouldn't require video out, couldn't it work?

Dell does sell some models of laptops with a partially neutered ME. Purism
and System76 do as well.

You might want to pose that passthrough question to Dell tech. support and
if they can't answer it, see if you can return whichever laptop you select
if it's unfit for purpose and try another.


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Re: [qubes-users] High spec laptop for Qubes OS

[taii...@gmx.com]

On 02/24/2018 11:50 PM, Yuraeitha wrote:


Qubes OS on normal hardware (fulfilling current security hardware requirements) 
is still a much more secure alternative than Windows/Mac/Linux OS's, even on 
compromised hardware from i.e. Intel/AMD/etc. I agree there still are very big 
security/privacy problems in hardware, there definitely is. But all things 
considered, if you're not trying to be immune from state-level/advanced hacker 
attacks, then it may be too extreme to go that far just yet.

Why not have max security all the time? It isn't difficult.

Besides if the TALOS 2 isn't successful it will be the end of high 
performance owner controlled hardware, so maxing out today is important 
so you will be able to tomorrow.

  Unless of course, you are a high profile target, or even a medium-level 
target. Don't piss off, or grab unwanted attention of dangerously resourceful 
people.
"Avoid pissing people off" is bad advice and simply no fun - if your 
security plan counts on that then you don't have any security at all.

If you're a normal user, and you don't grab unwanted attention, then you should be okay 
in this time and day, however, that may change down the line as attack vectors improve 
and advance, and increasingly become mainstream for less skilled hackers to use. At which 
point, it's not the few handful really skilled hackers you need to worry about, but 
script kiddie "hackers" around every city-block.

Frankly it's impossible to get the perfect hardware to our desires. Whatever 
your needs may be, you need to take everything into account. The current 
situation however, I'd think if you're low profile (normal person with no 
unwanted attention), then you should be fine from a security perspective, with 
most laptops that meet the current hardware specifications.
I would argue that the TALOS 2 is perfect, it is the only system that 
has freedom, security and performance - you could even play videogames 
on it if they were compiled for POWER.
Its featureset and performance are much better than what intel and AMD 
are selling rather than being simply equivilant - it isn't at all 
"heavily limited".


A wintel skylake system "meets the current specifications" but I could 
cause a commotion and steal your encryption keys while you are 
distracted by plugging in a USB debugger because intel "forgot" to 
disable that feature in shipping chipsets.

It's the same if you climb Mount Everest or venture into a wild jungle, no 
matter how much you prepare, there will always be risk. There are no perfect 
hardware, while we can do better, currently we are heavily limited.


I run open source firmware on all of my computers and I sacrifice 
absolutely nothing - I play new games at max settings in a VM on my 
KGPE-D16 and if I wanted to I could install OpenBMC for remote lights 
out access just like on a mainstream proprietary system - it is feature 
equivilant.


I highly doubt that anyone here would prefer silly apple aesthetics and 
total lack of features/expansion ports over a secure functional computer 
and I for one prefer the industrial designs of the older thinkpads and 
latitudes.


On 02/24/2018 11:49 PM, vel...@tutamail.com wrote:

I think a Lenovo is the way to go...the Qubes developers use them, the X1/Gen5 
was mentioned as being popular with them. I googled and Max Ram is 16, however 
I went from 8-12 and more then satisfied with improvement. I wanted the X1 but 
thought it was out of my budget and thought I would look too cool using it:)

The W520 supports 32GB, the T420 and X230 16GB.

The W520, T420 and X230 (with x220 keyboard) are all decent mobile 
workstation performance choices and they support egpu via expresscard.
The G505S is more free (no ME/PSP) but it doesn't have expresscard and 
the build quality is not as nice.



Notes:
There isn't much point using qubes with hardware that has ME/PSP,

Is the ME/PSP risk more from a Governement/Intel threat or are the 
vulnerabilities with these features available to other threat vectors as well? 
Would appreciate your thoughts...
Rumor has it that signing keys for all ME versions and local HECI 
exploit mechanisms are being traded on obscure internet forums and being 
used to attack the usual targets (fortune 500, journalists, political 
types etc)


I highly doubt you I or anyone posting here is important enough to get a 
specific exploit package targeted to us by a government actor - you 
gotta have something worth stealing such as industrial processes, 
proprietary code to some important program, blueprint etc, for instance 
the chinese government has many hacking teams dedicated to industrial 
espionage but just because you aren't a necessarily a target doesn't 
mean you should support the makers of non-owner controlled hardware.

Thanks again Qubes team...
I am not a qubes team member - they have better things to do than tech 
support but I don't.


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Re: [qubes-users] High spec laptop for Qubes OS

[velcro]

I know they were volunteered recalled but could be an opportunity for good 
refurb pricing... 

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Re: [qubes-users] High spec laptop for Qubes OS

[velcro]

I think a Lenovo is the way to go...the Qubes developers use them, the X1/Gen5 
was mentioned as being popular with them. I googled and Max Ram is 16, however 
I went from 8-12 and more then satisfied with improvement. I wanted the X1 but 
thought it was out of my budget and thought I would look too cool using it:)

gmx.com...your comment:

> Notes:
> There isn't much point using qubes with hardware that has ME/PSP, 

Is the ME/PSP risk more from a Governement/Intel threat or are the 
vulnerabilities with these features available to other threat vectors as well? 
Would appreciate your thoughts...

Thanks again Qubes team...

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Re: [qubes-users] High spec laptop for Qubes OS

[taii...@gmx.com]

I suggest a lenovo W520, as it supports coreboot with open source hw 
init and me cleaner (which nerfs but does not disable ME - it is 
impossible to disable ME, dell/purism are lying) you can also use an 
egpu for additional graphics power and install an ivy bridge processor 
for better power figures.


I would also look in to the TALOS 2 (OpenPOWER9) which is a very high 
performance owner controlled workstation with libre firmware for both 
the board and BMC (even the microcode is owner controlled and has 
documentation supplied, there is absolutely no hardware code signing 
enforcement).
POWER is now the worlds only owner controlled performance cpu arch due 
to both intel and AMD adopting black box supervisor processors and 
hardware code signing enforcement.

https://raptorcs.com
It also supports CAPI and PCI-e 4.0, which I imagine might interest you.

Notes:
There isn't much point using qubes with hardware that has ME/PSP, 
especially newer hardware that doesn't have open source init (ex: what 
you listed and of course the faux-libre purism laptops)
"Gaming" or "Workstation" laptops end up being a pain in the ass to 
carry around so if you don't really need one I wouldn't get one, or get 
a lower power device that supports an EGPU setup.
You can't pass through a laptop GPU like that as both the iGPU and dGPU 
considered a primary video adapters - you would have to purchase an eGPU 
if you want a GPU in a VM and you also need a secondary usb controller, 
monitor, audio device etc.


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[qubes-users] High spec laptop for Qubes OS

[adam]

Hello,

I currently run Qubes OS on an XPS 13 from 2015 with an i5-6200U, 8GB 
RAM, slow NVMe. It can't really handle Qubes OS - it's quite laggy and 
struggles to play video on the 4K screen. The CPU and RAM are normally 
maxed with a couple of VMs running, even without video.


I'm going to buy a new laptop with a higher spec which should hopefully 
handle things well. The following laptops are my final five contenders. 
They all have a discrete GPU, which I'm hoping to passthrough to a VM 
for playing streaming video (h264/h265/vp9 codecs). Do I have this right 
that it would be most efficient to use the Intel GPU in dom0 and the 
discrete GPU in the VM? I also do a lot of scientific computing, so it's 
useful to offload some computation to a GPU via CUDA.


I get the impression from the HCL that they should all work fine as long 
as I replace any non-Intel wifi m.2 sticks with an Intel 8265. Do you 
have any thoughts on whether one would be more appropriate than another?


Dell XPS 15 9560 (2017)
Intel i7-7700HQ Quad Core
32GB RAM
512GB M.2 NVMe
Intel + NVIDIA GTX 1050

Dell XPS 15 2018
Intel i7-8705G Quad Core
32GB RAM
512GB M.2 NVMe
Intel + Radeon RX Vega M GL

Dell Precision 5520
Intel Xeon E3-1505M v6 Quad Core
32GB RAM
512GB M.2 NVMe
Intel + Nvidia Quadro M1200

Lenovo P51
Intel Xeon E3-1505M v6 Quad Core
32GB RAM
512GB M.2 NVMe
Intel + NVIDIA Quadro M2200

Razer Blade
Intel i7-7700HQ Quad Core
16GB RAM
512GB M.2 NVMe
Intel + NVIDIA GTX 1060

Thanks,
Adam

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