Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
kitchm via Forum: The discussion includes the fine points about the legality of keeping the information of a mailing list on one's own computer for searching or referencing, or whatever some have thought it useful for. Obviously not a good idea for the security reasons stated. (I might add that not one person has listed the steps for so doing anyway. Even when asked, it appears it is easy to talk but hard to do.) Hi, I think the easiest way to do that is to sign up for the mailing list using an email provider that supports POP3 (i guess IMAP could work too, but i hate IMAP). Then set up an email client like Thunderbird using POP3, and all posts to the mailing list (from that point forward) will be downloaded to Thunderbird as emails. Then you can just archive everything (or as much or as little as you want). It may also make sense to transfer the archived emails to an offline VM for security reasons. If you mean to also archive all posts that were made before you joined the mailing list, i think there's a way to do that too, but i'm not sure how. -- Jackie -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/2032ad37-4d3e-3d41-5353-f05a35cfa8d7%40bitmessage.ch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
Sorry JRG, I also wanted to post my response here as well: Right you are. The authors are Alan F. Westin and Michael A. Baker. It came out in paperback in 1972, according to Amazon. I think that maybe there was also the lack of accuracy in the records because the powers that be often required no corroboration. In the worst, a "friend" could vouch for someone else. That doesn't work today, as you point out. Currently, the amount of information gather about you or anyone else is staggering and often quite surprising. But I do not think that we must be recluses to keep our public personas separate from our public ones. We simply need to practice good methods, as the experts say. For instance, why would anyone ever want a corporation in their name. That would be very unwise. It simply is not necessary today. If you saw me, you would never know anything about me nor be able to associate this post with my public persona. And that's the whole point. I can respect your choices, and I support your right to make them. In fact, dying for that right is part of the package. In the same manner, I only hope that men and women of intelligence everywhere respect the rights of others to choose not to make the same choices. I also suggest that those who wish to server the public make sure to offer those choices to those they serve. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/b2b.5c5db799%40qubes-os.info. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
Don't worry snowflakes, I'm here to help you and you are welcome. This is a post about why one should use a mailing list. The answer is that they should not. The many reasons for not so doing have been well addressed by the thoughtful comments of most and those are right on point. Thanks J.R.G., and don't you stop it at all. The discussion includes the fine points about the legality of keeping the information of a mailing list on one's own computer for searching or referencing, or whatever some have thought it useful for. Obviously not a good idea for the security reasons stated. (I might add that not one person has listed the steps for so doing anyway. Even when asked, it appears it is easy to talk but hard to do.) >From another angle, we see that using this forum is far better than the mailing list for most people. I have seen no statistics that prove otherwise. And with the huge advantages to graphical interfaces, text-based systems are simply not that popular. Further, using anything by Google is a bad idea. There are plenty of alternatives, and when it comes to mailing lists, FOSS forums are all the bomb and for good reason. Also, https://spreadprivacy.com/how-to-remove-google/. And because the damn mailing list does not work thru email, I must re-post my replies here: marmot te, Right you are. And wonderful free forum software too. billollib, Excellent comments. My take is this: Hillary has powerful friends, as does Trump. The friend of the Boston Bombers did not. I would really like to hear about an appeal, but a poor person like you and I have not the resources to pursue such a thing, especially from prison, and a federal one at that. Remember, no law is a threat unless enforced. And we never know when. Also remember that when public passions are stirred up, anything may happen that may not normally be so. The fact remains that I do not want to be put in that position. Therefore, the answer is always "What cache?". That same as "Who me?" being associated with a mailing list. Stuart Perkins, Yeah, buddy, I'll bet it has. I guess it is better safe than sorry. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/b2a.5c5db5d7%40qubes-os.info. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
On Thu, 7 Feb 2019 06:31:01 -0800 (PST) billol...@gmail.com wrote: >On Wednesday, February 6, 2019 at 11:36:12 AM UTC-5, unman wrote: >> On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 10:15:54AM -0600, John Goold wrote: >> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- >> > Hash: SHA256 >> > >> > On 2/6/19 1:12 AM, 'awokd' via qubes-users wrote: >> > > kitchm via Forum: >> > > >> > ... >> > >> It is currently illegal by federal law to clear your browser >> > >> history. >> > > >> > > Cite? >> > >> > What one does with one's browser history, even assuming one's browser >> > has a browser history, is clearly not governed by law, except perhaps >> > in countries like China and Russion. >> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- >> > >> > iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEe8Wcf7Po7bts2Rl4jWN9/rQYsRwFAlxbCDgACgkQjWN9/rQY >> > sRwFfQf+MRGgCma20R/XDSkO0X94ul0kb8p/GfUBQbw7/bbdNKXtawkUtzGqe44I >> > IExLLsikRRTdHGIMvHVpBXNjQGm2Qh6MdL4v+cd/CN2vtj5Yh2ifk5OF5xt5hb0A >> > EX+8EYoo5GoF+2urI3IU6NTKBL0tCDiKIcjVIMuxg9ah0mo1QTO5+ewlX5AGlyLS >> > c2dVDHB3svCIKQ9xrHZxcNLL3WKL6lrOwP/oGuM6NLGJtnBDbS7ihkJA1GMu7m5H >> > 3hHQFq7vb8/6vNf6L8jqC3MPDbp/zXXwCk1UjLofnbUX+ExVDKPZF43qI8yMiGwN >> > UkdsgfCZfIQjh1jKGDXhJ2/xyhySvw== >> > =zjDq >> > -END PGP SIGNATURE- >> >> Actually, it may be governed by law in the US, but not in Russia. >> The FBI have interpreted Sarbanes-Oxley as creating a >> felony offence where one deletes browser history where there was >> reasonable expectation of investigation. >> It has been used against Matanov, a friend of the Boston bombers, and >> David Kernell, who hacked Sarah Palin's email. >> The EFF have highlighted this interpretation of Sarbanes Oxley as >> egregious, but no doubt the authorities deem it necessary. >> >> Note that it is NOT illegal in the US to clear your browser history: >> but it may prove a felony offence to do so. In the two cases cited there >> were reasonable grounds to suppose that a federal investigation would >> take place. > >It should probably be noted that those 2015 prosecutions were a bit novel, and >it has not become common practice. In fact, the Supreme Court reigned it in a >little with Yates v US (2015) in which they threw out the conviction of a >fisherman who threw away an illegal catch to avoid prosecution. >Sarbanes-Oxley was written for corporate stuff, to stop corporations from >deleting emails and shredding documents in order to hide a crime that they >knew would be, but had not yet been, moved forward for prosecution. The >application of this to conspiracy to commit terrorist acts is not too >far-fetched, but its application was novel, and was not tested in appeal as >far as I know. > >In terms of private citizens engaging in routine privacy measures, I know of >no such prosecution. Sure, an aggressive DA can charge anybody with anything >for any reason, and some pay no attention to truth, precedent or law at all. >But if someone has a case of someone as a private citizen who routinely cleans >up their files, I'd love to see it. > >Since Oxley Sarbanes requires the intent to interfere in the investigation of >a criminal act, it would seem to me that a private citizen who routinely >cleans house for privacy reasons while not engaged in such acts would have an >affirmative defense that continuing to do so does not indicate such specific >intent. For instance, as I mentioned, a professional organization I belong to >does not archive its mailinglist specifically to avoid people mining archives >to look for embarrassing quotes for use in the newspapers and in court. The >intent there is clearly *not* to cover up a crime, but instead to protect >privacy. I'm no lawyer, of course, but I find it hard to generalize the idea >that Oxley Sarbanes is that huge of a threat as it currently is enforced. > >I'll also point out that if anything were this kind of violation, then the >Hillary email stuff would have been ripe for prosecution under this law, and >the DoJ clearly said that the presumption is that there isn't criminal intent, >at least with respect to that kind of behavior. I suspect that most >prosecutors know this, which means that egregious overapplication of this law >will be unlikely, else it will be repealed -- since most Republicans hate the >law as it stands and are looking for an excuse to get rid of it. > Sarbanes/Oxley certainly has given me and a lot of other consultants...and auditors...a lot of work. :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/20190207133636.00eef430%40gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
On Wednesday, February 6, 2019 at 11:36:12 AM UTC-5, unman wrote: > On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 10:15:54AM -0600, John Goold wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA256 > > > > On 2/6/19 1:12 AM, 'awokd' via qubes-users wrote: > > > kitchm via Forum: > > > > > ... > > >> It is currently illegal by federal law to clear your browser > > >> history. > > > > > > Cite? > > > > What one does with one's browser history, even assuming one's browser > > has a browser history, is clearly not governed by law, except perhaps > > in countries like China and Russion. > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > > > > iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEe8Wcf7Po7bts2Rl4jWN9/rQYsRwFAlxbCDgACgkQjWN9/rQY > > sRwFfQf+MRGgCma20R/XDSkO0X94ul0kb8p/GfUBQbw7/bbdNKXtawkUtzGqe44I > > IExLLsikRRTdHGIMvHVpBXNjQGm2Qh6MdL4v+cd/CN2vtj5Yh2ifk5OF5xt5hb0A > > EX+8EYoo5GoF+2urI3IU6NTKBL0tCDiKIcjVIMuxg9ah0mo1QTO5+ewlX5AGlyLS > > c2dVDHB3svCIKQ9xrHZxcNLL3WKL6lrOwP/oGuM6NLGJtnBDbS7ihkJA1GMu7m5H > > 3hHQFq7vb8/6vNf6L8jqC3MPDbp/zXXwCk1UjLofnbUX+ExVDKPZF43qI8yMiGwN > > UkdsgfCZfIQjh1jKGDXhJ2/xyhySvw== > > =zjDq > > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > Actually, it may be governed by law in the US, but not in Russia. > The FBI have interpreted Sarbanes-Oxley as creating a > felony offence where one deletes browser history where there was > reasonable expectation of investigation. > It has been used against Matanov, a friend of the Boston bombers, and > David Kernell, who hacked Sarah Palin's email. > The EFF have highlighted this interpretation of Sarbanes Oxley as > egregious, but no doubt the authorities deem it necessary. > > Note that it is NOT illegal in the US to clear your browser history: > but it may prove a felony offence to do so. In the two cases cited there > were reasonable grounds to suppose that a federal investigation would > take place. It should probably be noted that those 2015 prosecutions were a bit novel, and it has not become common practice. In fact, the Supreme Court reigned it in a little with Yates v US (2015) in which they threw out the conviction of a fisherman who threw away an illegal catch to avoid prosecution. Sarbanes-Oxley was written for corporate stuff, to stop corporations from deleting emails and shredding documents in order to hide a crime that they knew would be, but had not yet been, moved forward for prosecution. The application of this to conspiracy to commit terrorist acts is not too far-fetched, but its application was novel, and was not tested in appeal as far as I know. In terms of private citizens engaging in routine privacy measures, I know of no such prosecution. Sure, an aggressive DA can charge anybody with anything for any reason, and some pay no attention to truth, precedent or law at all. But if someone has a case of someone as a private citizen who routinely cleans up their files, I'd love to see it. Since Oxley Sarbanes requires the intent to interfere in the investigation of a criminal act, it would seem to me that a private citizen who routinely cleans house for privacy reasons while not engaged in such acts would have an affirmative defense that continuing to do so does not indicate such specific intent. For instance, as I mentioned, a professional organization I belong to does not archive its mailinglist specifically to avoid people mining archives to look for embarrassing quotes for use in the newspapers and in court. The intent there is clearly *not* to cover up a crime, but instead to protect privacy. I'm no lawyer, of course, but I find it hard to generalize the idea that Oxley Sarbanes is that huge of a threat as it currently is enforced. I'll also point out that if anything were this kind of violation, then the Hillary email stuff would have been ripe for prosecution under this law, and the DoJ clearly said that the presumption is that there isn't criminal intent, at least with respect to that kind of behavior. I suspect that most prosecutors know this, which means that egregious overapplication of this law will be unlikely, else it will be repealed -- since most Republicans hate the law as it stands and are looking for an excuse to get rid of it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/ad11e3e4-4a4c-4bb1-9574-3f569043781d%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
Am Mittwoch, den 06.02.2019, 11:34 -0500 schrieb kitchm via Forum: > So did you not read Stuart's post where he states "My > current client has a court order to NEVER delete another > e-mail"? So you don't know the difference between a court order and a law? > Have you not read books by experts such as Kevin Mitnick? > We who have, know the truth, because we keep abreast of what > the experts say. *rofl* > Achim, you wrote "So what". regarding putting public discussions into a place where they are easily redistributable and archived > Really? You don't see the > significance in that? I do which is why I want to keep them in an easily archivable format for offline storage where I can keep them accessible in case of the original mechanism failing. Instead of putting it at the mercy of some "web forum". > BTW, you are certainly not polite, Definitely not to entitled snowflakes. Achim -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/c419beb83ffa419c5a334057b097b5e4edcc4295.camel%40noses.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2/6/19 1:52 PM, kit...@tutanota.com wrote: > Yeah, good buddy, we are all making the same assumptions. Knowing > about the extent the Five Eyes will go to gather your personal > information makes two points; one is that if they do it, they must > have a right to do it, and two, because they are, we must fight > against it 24/7. You are very wise in not keeping records. I > couldn't agree more. > > So then I must ask you, how do you feel about your name being kept, > as part of your international dossier, associated with the mailing > list? > Actually, I do not mind people knowing my name or roughly where I live (Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada). I do not mind people knowing I am a 73-year old male. What does bother me is a concept I came across, decades ago when I first starting working on mainframe computers and before The Internet was publicly accessible. It was the subject of a book called "Databanks in a Free Society" (I remember the title, but not the name of the author). Privacy in my Grandparents age (possibly your Great-Grandparents) was not ensured because of the lack of access to information. One could travel to a person's city and look up information about who owned what property and what price they bought it for, search the registry of births and deaths, etc. and eventually, often at great cost, put together a pretty detailed dossier on a person. Part of that was because it required a lot of investigation — it might even be difficult to determine where a person was born (not just the city, but even the state or country). That great cost gave people a degree of privacy, as did the difficulty of confirming or disproving a random individual's identity. Then, starting around 1948, computers were developed enough and made available to anyone with the money to buy one (i.e. large enough businesses like insurance companies, large banks,... that could afford a mainframe computer and the facilities to house it). And, of course, governments started to store records on computer media (often reels of tape). The premise of the book was that it was "now" possible for large corporations and, especially the various divisions of a government, to exchange, correlate, merge and massage disparate lots of information and build up dossiers on people cheaply enough to make it practical to do so. So, how would those "Databanks" be used in "a Free Society"? What about an individual's right to privacy? Of course, we are well past that stage. Information on people is almost trivially gathered, correlated and massaged. Because of that, our expectation of privacy (and anonymity) has been shattered. We can only maintain a fraction of the privacy that my grandparents had. And, it has become harder for individuals to maintain even a modicum of privacy, never mind "live off the grid". Finally, to answer your question: I do not mind my name being associated with this mailing list. What I do worry about is my identity being "stolen"; that is, someone (or some people) being able to impersonate me in a convincing way. I worry about people being able to access my bank accounts fraudulently or incur debts that appear to be my debts. About someone destroying or stealing records I have on my computer that, once upon a time, were paper records... Does sharing my name and a few bits of personal information make it easier for someone to do the above? Probably. But I do not want to live as a recluse. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEe8Wcf7Po7bts2Rl4jWN9/rQYsRwFAlxbUcwACgkQjWN9/rQY sRwaNAf/Roj69lCiMg5JNUp/6K+ibPK+QxkG3nx//vz0Cpbduom/h3Q7zL7jumpv yD3IQGcPJhkbffteg5F6jkx57ZCW4ms2QUy/goUyyiG+0X9gGupEB2Y/5Xc+dQUg iOb99fxU7Et+wXITY56OfImhCiBEypG2/bTNZ65DO6zJr7BH8pluFmuIucK68ALW Ydx9/uQabDkhbvinq9Y21Kwk8ngR4RQAsu2GHNaZ8cbWErm2u7PDxF4oDBVKddN+ o/cLjjRZg2VtRAETlUHSGXbi+mrmtVWina+NG75RNzPDe7GHQmBrnVFATnLMJozz Q+IHIRaFHjkyLSOdataZjPLM1PaIbg== =Td9w -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/4143bd5c-3a9e-3b67-8589-15197a4dc9c0%40gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 12:51:04 -0600 John Goold wrote: >-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- >Hash: SHA256 > >On 2/6/19 10:36 AM, unman wrote: >> On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 10:15:54AM -0600, John Goold wrote: On >> 2/6/19 1:12 AM, 'awokd' via qubes-users wrote: > kitchm via Forum: > >> ... >> It is currently illegal by federal law to clear your >> browser history. > > Cite? >> >> What one does with one's browser history, even assuming one's >> browser has a browser history, is clearly not governed by law, >> except perhaps in countries like China and Russion. >> >> Actually, it may be governed by law in the US, but not in Russia. >> The FBI have interpreted Sarbanes-Oxley as creating a felony >> offence where one deletes browser history where there was >> reasonable expectation of investigation. It has been used against >> Matanov, a friend of the Boston bombers, and David Kernell, who >> hacked Sarah Palin's email. The EFF have highlighted this >> interpretation of Sarbanes Oxley as egregious, but no doubt the >> authorities deem it necessary. >> >> Note that it is NOT illegal in the US to clear your browser >> history: but it may prove a felony offence to do so. In the two >> cases cited there were reasonable grounds to suppose that a federal >> investigation would take place. >> > >I think it should go without saying that anyone that violates a court >order issued against them is committing an offense. > >Hmmm... So, in the U.S., if you are in a position that there was "a >reasonable expectation of investigation", any attempt to maintain your >privacy may be construed (at least by the FBI) to be a felony offence? > Wow! Egregious seems to be an understatement. > >It seems a bit surreal. A person was not expecting to be the target of >a government/justice system investigation, but someone or some group >say the person should have expected to be investigated... I can see >this happening in a non-democratic regime, but it seems unreal in a >nation professing to be at the forefront of democracy. > >Anyway, I do not have to worry about this as I do not allow my browser >to keep track of my browsing history (unless the browser is doing so >surreptitiously). So I have no browser history to delete. However, I >suppose if I became the subject of an investigation, any of my >attempts (all mild) to maintain my privacy would be interpreted as >nefarious. > >Anyway, as you implied, I was making assumptions based on my >expectations of living in a democracy. > >It's an interesting discussion. Of course the main reason to lunch the ME in bios (for those with systems the right vintage, or at least set the HAP bit) and running Qubes to begin with is to make it difficult for prying eyes to see what we do on our computers. Not that we are doing anything "nefarious", but as far as I'm concerned, my business is exactly that...my business. It pays to always use...private browsing and/or disposable VM for general internet stuff. That way you never overtly act to "hide" anything, so whether or not you have a reasonable expectation of being investigated is a non-starter. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEg3cTCwPFs8wewas+M1E7j4SmKVQFAlxbRToACgkQM1E7j4Sm KVTNHAf+PYKCKraumNHXgKdIrx/4OUX4vHT16SQ4dCwrn6DkasceILGPqkvPrJwJ /S8rHcjQlOoVP74GcZSuAryHy/IoKLOP1h2E6sDsQdfpZPmAZ3EAq0CsSK7bNoWs c7sL1D1tn/YGIrvyrH6eHw3f9KXlcMTL+3LD4F4JMbrsOGAfXfdgdio+FJqGvmwr T8PqLhte4oCe/JeE3v3qI7Hd0He3jvjRrmvyexc2dRrt/l0RCpUPJIVQgl/W8dAn 94y+bTwD3y5I5dUCyiOroSvoede0jfbpggeNDdAJvNag0E+2SKXN6z8A02hhrrii LQzeVAgrWYrPI6DLniqCGN6Ga3z6mw== =5sAN -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/20190206143609.59f81581%40gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 12:51:04PM -0600, John Goold wrote: > It's an interesting discussion. yes, but it's also entirely off-topic for this list. please stop it. -- tschau, Holger --- holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org PGP fingerprint: B8BF 5413 7B09 D35C F026 FE9D 091A B856 069A AA1C -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/20190206190554.7r65i44csmp477k7%40layer-acht.org. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2/6/19 10:36 AM, unman wrote: > On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 10:15:54AM -0600, John Goold wrote: On > 2/6/19 1:12 AM, 'awokd' via qubes-users wrote: kitchm via Forum: > ... > It is currently illegal by federal law to clear your > browser history. Cite? > > What one does with one's browser history, even assuming one's > browser has a browser history, is clearly not governed by law, > except perhaps in countries like China and Russion. > > Actually, it may be governed by law in the US, but not in Russia. > The FBI have interpreted Sarbanes-Oxley as creating a felony > offence where one deletes browser history where there was > reasonable expectation of investigation. It has been used against > Matanov, a friend of the Boston bombers, and David Kernell, who > hacked Sarah Palin's email. The EFF have highlighted this > interpretation of Sarbanes Oxley as egregious, but no doubt the > authorities deem it necessary. > > Note that it is NOT illegal in the US to clear your browser > history: but it may prove a felony offence to do so. In the two > cases cited there were reasonable grounds to suppose that a federal > investigation would take place. > I think it should go without saying that anyone that violates a court order issued against them is committing an offense. Hmmm... So, in the U.S., if you are in a position that there was "a reasonable expectation of investigation", any attempt to maintain your privacy may be construed (at least by the FBI) to be a felony offence? Wow! Egregious seems to be an understatement. It seems a bit surreal. A person was not expecting to be the target of a government/justice system investigation, but someone or some group say the person should have expected to be investigated... I can see this happening in a non-democratic regime, but it seems unreal in a nation professing to be at the forefront of democracy. Anyway, I do not have to worry about this as I do not allow my browser to keep track of my browsing history (unless the browser is doing so surreptitiously). So I have no browser history to delete. However, I suppose if I became the subject of an investigation, any of my attempts (all mild) to maintain my privacy would be interpreted as nefarious. Anyway, as you implied, I was making assumptions based on my expectations of living in a democracy. It's an interesting discussion. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEe8Wcf7Po7bts2Rl4jWN9/rQYsRwFAlxbLJIACgkQjWN9/rQY sRxbAgf/bBRwIhE+EQ7FVHig6psIg+DDl15Jx8s/13mEjAvKlc45hgxjaShJAQvn n/nakGzdmzWwrgMAqeOzINGRMdfFaavVxck0+NL0hvVJJ/EONl8hYYloy5k+nUvA 1BoCgUk8LlLRNFSEvtltQod5GDkLAnaXPdxau4sY9u8YL60L3wnjJ8PPpa+lp8/G 0c8iwlwMSn8Yp4t8pJ7Rl7R7ikByY+v1BOt9R6x9zVmHi9SY00BjCKkLegJ5dhVE MGSA4BA43LsVvyNilQQ/AFMyUCVPo753rYvMjd0ED1hZJqpCJeXpjtBBS8Yg6enj FIY5+pkFU/X+p3wiSRdhMGnZKYh/Hw== =xIVp -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/1d2f305d-c7d4-d43a-33a6-d227515920ce%40gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 11:34:57AM -0500, kitchm via Forum wrote: > [...] BTW, you are certainly not polite, > but you are obviously such a whiner since you continue to > whine about me and make this personal. can you all please stop your ad-hominem attacks and off-topic discussions and keep this list about Qubes OS?! (Also, please accept that there are different use-cases for Qubes OS and different definitions of privacy, security and everything.) Thanks already. -- tschau, Holger --- holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org PGP fingerprint: B8BF 5413 7B09 D35C F026 FE9D 091A B856 069A AA1C -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/20190206165018.hj5vevtk4cokwloi%40layer-acht.org. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 10:15:54AM -0600, John Goold wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA256 > > On 2/6/19 1:12 AM, 'awokd' via qubes-users wrote: > > kitchm via Forum: > > > ... > >> It is currently illegal by federal law to clear your browser > >> history. > > > > Cite? > > What one does with one's browser history, even assuming one's browser > has a browser history, is clearly not governed by law, except perhaps > in countries like China and Russion. > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > > iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEe8Wcf7Po7bts2Rl4jWN9/rQYsRwFAlxbCDgACgkQjWN9/rQY > sRwFfQf+MRGgCma20R/XDSkO0X94ul0kb8p/GfUBQbw7/bbdNKXtawkUtzGqe44I > IExLLsikRRTdHGIMvHVpBXNjQGm2Qh6MdL4v+cd/CN2vtj5Yh2ifk5OF5xt5hb0A > EX+8EYoo5GoF+2urI3IU6NTKBL0tCDiKIcjVIMuxg9ah0mo1QTO5+ewlX5AGlyLS > c2dVDHB3svCIKQ9xrHZxcNLL3WKL6lrOwP/oGuM6NLGJtnBDbS7ihkJA1GMu7m5H > 3hHQFq7vb8/6vNf6L8jqC3MPDbp/zXXwCk1UjLofnbUX+ExVDKPZF43qI8yMiGwN > UkdsgfCZfIQjh1jKGDXhJ2/xyhySvw== > =zjDq > -END PGP SIGNATURE- Actually, it may be governed by law in the US, but not in Russia. The FBI have interpreted Sarbanes-Oxley as creating a felony offence where one deletes browser history where there was reasonable expectation of investigation. It has been used against Matanov, a friend of the Boston bombers, and David Kernell, who hacked Sarah Palin's email. The EFF have highlighted this interpretation of Sarbanes Oxley as egregious, but no doubt the authorities deem it necessary. Note that it is NOT illegal in the US to clear your browser history: but it may prove a felony offence to do so. In the two cases cited there were reasonable grounds to suppose that a federal investigation would take place. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/20190206163608.t24cbnwjpkffsomp%40thirdeyesecurity.org. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
It is called a Trump-ism. Believing that whatever one says is truth. So did you not read Stuart's post where he states "My current client has a court order to NEVER delete another e-mail"? Have you not read about the Boston Bomber case? Have you not read books by experts such as Kevin Mitnick? We who have, know the truth, because we keep abreast of what the experts say. It is not our own opinion. Further, anyone who is concerned about anonymity and privacy should be doing the same. Pretending to know doesn't make it so. Awokd, you have legitimate and good questions. Please note the following from the RFC you referenced. "This memo does not specify an Internet standard of any kind." You also wrote, "Multiple people have suggested using Zrubi's forum, which does not require a Google account." I couldn't agree more; as I have mentioned before. Zrubi is a Godsend. Achim, you wrote "So what". Really? You don't see the significance in that? BTW, you are certainly not polite, but you are obviously such a whiner since you continue to whine about me and make this personal. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/aec.5c5b0cb1%40qubes-os.info. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 2/6/19 1:12 AM, 'awokd' via qubes-users wrote: > kitchm via Forum: > ... >> It is currently illegal by federal law to clear your browser >> history. > > Cite? What one does with one's browser history, even assuming one's browser has a browser history, is clearly not governed by law, except perhaps in countries like China and Russion. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEe8Wcf7Po7bts2Rl4jWN9/rQYsRwFAlxbCDgACgkQjWN9/rQY sRwFfQf+MRGgCma20R/XDSkO0X94ul0kb8p/GfUBQbw7/bbdNKXtawkUtzGqe44I IExLLsikRRTdHGIMvHVpBXNjQGm2Qh6MdL4v+cd/CN2vtj5Yh2ifk5OF5xt5hb0A EX+8EYoo5GoF+2urI3IU6NTKBL0tCDiKIcjVIMuxg9ah0mo1QTO5+ewlX5AGlyLS c2dVDHB3svCIKQ9xrHZxcNLL3WKL6lrOwP/oGuM6NLGJtnBDbS7ihkJA1GMu7m5H 3hHQFq7vb8/6vNf6L8jqC3MPDbp/zXXwCk1UjLofnbUX+ExVDKPZF43qI8yMiGwN UkdsgfCZfIQjh1jKGDXhJ2/xyhySvw== =zjDq -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/19e32b12-d3f7-a5ca-3009-21744df7414a%40gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
On Tue, 05 Feb 2019 13:34:04 -0500 kitchm via Forum wrote: >Some comments based on what has been posted so far: >... > It is currently illegal by >federal law to clear your browser history. >... Illegal for who? Perhaps a Federal employee...on a work computer. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/20190206073355.526d1712%40gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
Am Dienstag, den 05.02.2019, 13:34 -0500 schrieb kitchm via Forum: > - Google is never a secure option. And so what? This is a public mailing list with very little requirements. > - No one has ever explained how to archive on a local > computer. Yeah, well, learn to use the tools you are dealing with. Or pay for a teacher. > - Prohibiting top posting is a bad idea because we don't do > that with the e-mail standard. You mean "Outlook standard". Before Microsoft encroached upon the world top posting was a clear request to be shunned. You should have tried it on Usenet... Again: If you want to be art of a group, adapt to their standards. or make up your own environment and live with feeling very lonely there. - We must all recognize the lowest common denominator which > are interfaces such as Tutanota. If you've never used a > web-mail interface you probably don't understand this. No. Stop patronizin "us". We don't have to do anything. Learn to find appropriate tools or live with the things you have. You're the land of the grown ups. > The mailing list sends everything. That's > just another form of spam. I just saw Picard and Riker sneaking around the corner doing a double facepalm. - There is no reasonable organization to mailing lists, and > as such they are misleading. And now Janeway is joining them. Can it get any better? > By the way, to everyone who wants anonymity, you cannot use > a mailing list or a forum. It is currently illegal by > federal law to clear your browser history. Wich federation? And if that's a problem just leave the Alpha quadrant. > What do you > think would be the ruling regarding deleting an archive? > You had better not keep the info on your computer, and you > had better make sure you are anonymous and untrackable. You might be better off in "Tinfoil-Hat Folding 101". Achim -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/675a53fd764778a8f18ba08e09a2218d41c44c1a.camel%40noses.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
Am Dienstag, den 05.02.2019, 13:32 -0500 schrieb kitchm via Forum: > @Achim Patzner - noses, Google groups is not intuitive by > any standard. So what? Stop being an entitled whiner and learn to use the tools that are available instead of demanding the world to rotate around you. > if you truly believed that holding > your tongue was a good idea, then why did you comment > further? It was a polite way of telling you to stop whining and grow a pair. Achim -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/32540534d5c34d47a6a9d1996cabefd332e8bb0d.camel%40noses.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
kitchm via Forum: - Prohibiting top posting is a bad idea because we don't do that with the e-mail standard. Email doesn't follow the standard. See https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 3.1.1. - "However, a Google account is required in order to post through the web interfaces." You cannot get around this requirement, and no one has yet replied as to how it can be done. It just doesn't work. Multiple people have suggested using Zrubi's forum, which does not require a Google account. It is currently illegal by federal law to clear your browser history. Cite? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/d267ecac-b74b-4dfc-533f-eb1dd423bf0a%40danwin1210.me. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
@Achim Patzner - noses, Google groups is not intuitive by any standard. That is a simple fact. And frankly, I don't understand why you and unman are being just a little too negative and accusatory. This is a good discussion and it hits on many parts of the mailing list problem. No one is requiring you to contribute, so if you do, please be nice about it. And please note that no one at any time has displayed any dissatisfaction with the help that is offered by the people who participate. There is no reason to assume such, as you have in your comments. There is no reason to close this topic, and if you truly believed that holding your tongue was a good idea, then why did you comment further? It is totally non sequitur. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/ad7.5c59d6b6%40qubes-os.info. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
Some comments based on what has been posted so far: - Google is never a secure option. - No one has ever explained how to archive on a local computer. - Prohibiting top posting is a bad idea because we don't do that with the e-mail standard. - There is nothing wrong with the fact that busy people appreciate fast answers. - We must all recognize the lowest common denominator which are interfaces such as Tutanota. If you've never used a web-mail interface you probably don't understand this. - Yeah, I also think that the forum is the cat's pajamas. God's blessing on the one who set it up. - Push and pull is a misnomer in this setting. Subscribing to a forum allows a person to get just what notifications they desire. The mailing list sends everything. That's just another form of spam. - Both a mailing list and a forum have a repository somewhere containing all the posts. Legality has little to do with that. - There is no reasonable organization to mailing lists, and as such they are misleading. - "However, a Google account is required in order to post through the web interfaces." You cannot get around this requirement, and no one has yet replied as to how it can be done. It just doesn't work. By the way, to everyone who wants anonymity, you cannot use a mailing list or a forum. It is currently illegal by federal law to clear your browser history. What do you think would be the ruling regarding deleting an archive? You had better not keep the info on your computer, and you had better make sure you are anonymous and untrackable. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/ad8.5c59d71b%40qubes-os.info. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
Am Freitag, den 01.02.2019, 16:24 -0500 schrieb kitchm: > Personal beliefs mean little when people are crying out for > help. If something can be proven to be intuitive, then > speak up, or else hold your tongue. The bottom line remains > that it provably does not work at this point in time. Stop talking in the name of others who did not appoint you to. Obviously those you want to draw on as your personal unpaid resource are using their preferred technology. For those who cannot deal with that there are certain mitigative measures (like the Google archive everybody is free to use without a restriction or the gateway to a web forum for those who cannot live without it). > If something can be proven to be intuitive, > then speak up, or else hold your tongue. Yes, it is indeed time to close this useless discussion. As long as you are not paying for it: Take it or leave it. Tongue holding seems to be a great idea. Achim -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/d3af798c69bf7b8bf4db824d18aad731e10fcc30.camel%40noses.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
marmot-te wrote on Wed, 30 January 2019 23:32 > hi here, > > I understand that list mail is pretty useful, > > but ... come on, this is not really common > user-friendly > example 1 : I cannot know what it be said before I > subscribe to it > example 2 : I know some users of Qubes than who don't > give a chance to > that mail list, cause it is a new level of complexity > (use of a good > mailing software) for people who already have already > some troubles with > the very! useful man pages. Just use the forum then: https://qubes-os.info -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/a15.5c528fca%40qubes-os.info. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
@marmot-te I couldn't agree more. I have never seen such a poor support forum example (and I've seen and used a ton of them). To add insult to injury, we are forced to use one of the worst company's services when it comes to privacy. Lack of intuitive design and poor interface makes the whole thing abhorrent. Thanks for that comment. (By the way, I am going to use qubes-os.info from now on. Give it a try.) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/a2a.5c533ff1%40qubes-os.info. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
On Fri, 01 Feb 2019 16:24:22 -0500 kitchm wrote: > I think that it is far more helpful for someone who has > actually done it to clearly and carefully explain the steps > involved to use the mail list (or google group postings or > whatever you call them) in Thunderbird and other e-mail > clients, as well as Firefox and other web browsers or within > Tutanota itself. > > I have read everything that has been posted, plus the direct > administrator's comments about how to do it, without finding > anything that works so far. > > Personal beliefs mean little when people are crying out for > help. If something can be proven to be intuitive, then > speak up, or else hold your tongue. The bottom line remains > that it provably does not work at this point in time. > > Thank you. > What doesn't work? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/20190201225726.145c80b0.mike%40keehan.net. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
I think that it is far more helpful for someone who has actually done it to clearly and carefully explain the steps involved to use the mail list (or google group postings or whatever you call them) in Thunderbird and other e-mail clients, as well as Firefox and other web browsers or within Tutanota itself. I have read everything that has been posted, plus the direct administrator's comments about how to do it, without finding anything that works so far. Personal beliefs mean little when people are crying out for help. If something can be proven to be intuitive, then speak up, or else hold your tongue. The bottom line remains that it provably does not work at this point in time. Thank you. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/a4d.5c54b906%40qubes-os.info. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 09:47:33PM -0500, kitchm wrote: > The basic concept here is clarify what is being discussed. > There appears to be two things; one is how a mail-list works > and the other is how a mail-list is not as good as a forum. > > Being able to retrieve old e-mails assumes one has a mail > store. Either one keeps them on their own computer by > downloading them from the server thru POP3, he accesses them > from the server by IMAP or she has to access a mail-list > server so see them thru the web interface. > > In the case of the mail-list server, one may also use his or > her own e-mail client program, such as Thunderbird, Claws or > other program. Both of these programs can handle newsgroups > and Usenet listings. > > Google bought Dejanews archives of the postings on Usenet. > They then started Google Groups while still maintaining a > gateway to Usenet. It makes some sense that if one can > handle newsgroups then one should be able to handle > googlegroups. Sadly, such is not the case. > > Being Google, they opted for a proprietary setup and do not > allow access like the standard methodology of the Usenet. > Another strike against Google. > > Therefore, there is no reason to use Google Groups at all. > If I have to go to another program to view the information > shared between people, then I will use a forum. At least I > can see that in a properly graphical way. Not only that, > but all postings after my initial one will come right to my > e-mail client. Thank you for the education. You can interact with the googlegroups list entirely through email. If you want to use a forum use Zrubi's: https://qubes-os.info -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/20190201120924.bbxmlo4eokx32gdg%40thirdeyesecurity.org. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 11:39:42PM -0500, Eric wrote: > What is all the fuss about? I am replying here from the > Qubes user forum that is integrated into the mailing list > since October last year. A link to this thread: > https://qubes-os.info/index.php?t=msg=650=0; > This forum is currently unofficial but seems to work fine. > Only has a few months worth of data so far but a Google > search pulls up the groups entries for older stuff. Indeed- what *is* the fuss about.. The main users list is available as a google group - you can use that as a mailing list, or using the web interface. You dont need a google account. Thanks to Zrubi's efforts, the same content is available as a standard Forum. The content is also available archived at https://www.mail-archive.com/qubes-users@googlegroups.com/ (The content also used to be available via Gmane before the breakage.) All this is explained at: https://www.qubes-os.org/support/ To anyone who cant search their archived mail, just one word (two?):notmuch. unman -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/20190201120457.aqbthz5notixtbh7%40thirdeyesecurity.org. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 9:47:37 PM UTC-5, kitchm wrote: > The basic concept here is clarify what is being discussed. > There appears to be two things; one is how a mail-list works > and the other is how a mail-list is not as good as a forum. > [snip] Maybe I'm not getting something here. What is absolutely necessary in a "forum" that is not present in Google Groups? You can search it, it's archived, and threads are separated. The only thing I can think of that more complex forum software might give you would be categories of posts. Since you can set this up to send and receive emails just like a mailinglist, it seems to me you can use it however you want. I don't get what this is about. A professional organization I belong to uses a mailinglist instead of a forum for two reasons: 1) A mailinglist is push, while a forum is pull. Once you have the mailinglist set up, you don't have to "do" anything to get it -- it just appears in your mailbox and you read and respond as you feel. In contrast, with a forum, you have to *go* to the forum, log in, and interact. That's effort. The organization found that about 25% of the mailinglist subscribers stopped participating when it tried out a forum. 2) This does not apply to this group, but the organization explicitly does not want to keep archives for legal reasons. A forum almost necessarily means archives, but you can set up a mailinglist to act as a nothing more than a relay. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/7a5c3454-6866-4d75-891e-ef08ee95f789%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
What is all the fuss about? I am replying here from the Qubes user forum that is integrated into the mailing list since October last year. A link to this thread: https://qubes-os.info/index.php?t=msg=650=0; This forum is currently unofficial but seems to work fine. Only has a few months worth of data so far but a Google search pulls up the groups entries for older stuff. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/a34.5c53cd8e%40qubes-os.info. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
The basic concept here is clarify what is being discussed. There appears to be two things; one is how a mail-list works and the other is how a mail-list is not as good as a forum. Being able to retrieve old e-mails assumes one has a mail store. Either one keeps them on their own computer by downloading them from the server thru POP3, he accesses them from the server by IMAP or she has to access a mail-list server so see them thru the web interface. In the case of the mail-list server, one may also use his or her own e-mail client program, such as Thunderbird, Claws or other program. Both of these programs can handle newsgroups and Usenet listings. Google bought Dejanews archives of the postings on Usenet. They then started Google Groups while still maintaining a gateway to Usenet. It makes some sense that if one can handle newsgroups then one should be able to handle googlegroups. Sadly, such is not the case. Being Google, they opted for a proprietary setup and do not allow access like the standard methodology of the Usenet. Another strike against Google. Therefore, there is no reason to use Google Groups at all. If I have to go to another program to view the information shared between people, then I will use a forum. At least I can see that in a properly graphical way. Not only that, but all postings after my initial one will come right to my e-mail client. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/a33.5c53b345%40qubes-os.info. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 14:52:31 -0500 kitchm wrote: >The problem is more fundamental. > >In all things, we need to seek more commonality and >simplicity in our lives. In computer related issues, I have >found over the years that people who do not understand how >things work (thanks to the poor educational systems) simply >like to add more complexity because they do not know to >follow industry standards. The other possibility is that >some do not want to change to better methodologies because >of a sad conservative mind-set. > >In the case of digital communications, everything is based >upon voice (telephone), written words (document files and >e-mail) and the visual (videos and web pages). When it >comes to forums, either for discussion and/or for help, the >interface has traditionally been thru the browser window >into industry standard forum software, with the e-mail part >used only for notifications and private messages. > >With that said, mailing lists were the old method before >there was a graphical user interface available. There is >little reason for its use any longer, and quite frankly, I >cannot think of a good one. > >For this day and age, using anything other than standard >forum software is detrimental to usability and productivity. > That's just how it is, and there is no reason to go >backwards in these things. > >We do not download forum databases; rather we expect the >hosts to maintain that for our use. > Using software because everyone else is using it sounds very Microsoft to me. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/20190131145552.30e8a1be%40gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[qubes-users] Re: why mail-list?
The problem is more fundamental. In all things, we need to seek more commonality and simplicity in our lives. In computer related issues, I have found over the years that people who do not understand how things work (thanks to the poor educational systems) simply like to add more complexity because they do not know to follow industry standards. The other possibility is that some do not want to change to better methodologies because of a sad conservative mind-set. In the case of digital communications, everything is based upon voice (telephone), written words (document files and e-mail) and the visual (videos and web pages). When it comes to forums, either for discussion and/or for help, the interface has traditionally been thru the browser window into industry standard forum software, with the e-mail part used only for notifications and private messages. With that said, mailing lists were the old method before there was a graphical user interface available. There is little reason for its use any longer, and quite frankly, I cannot think of a good one. For this day and age, using anything other than standard forum software is detrimental to usability and productivity. That's just how it is, and there is no reason to go backwards in these things. We do not download forum databases; rather we expect the hosts to maintain that for our use. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "qubes-users" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/a2e.5c5351ff%40qubes-os.info. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
