If I listened to rivendell on what size stem to use it would quite a bit
longer. I opted fot a shorter stem and that works for me. Maybe you should
call Rivendell to see that the stem length was on the bike you ride, then
go down a smidge on a 60 to bring the bars closer. I think I use an 8cm
I'm 6' tall with a 89.5 PBH. Someone here posted that, if on the fence
size-wise, they usually size down for a drop bar setup and size up for a
swept-back bar setup. That is also my experience.
For those close to my height and PBH, the following list of Rivs, sizes,
and bar setups has
Thank you for the pictures and stating the saddle hight! Super helpful.
With my saddle hight being 79 or 80 that's more post than I want. Feeling
good about buying the 60cm as well.
On Monday, May 20, 2024 at 5:54:31 p.m. UTC-6 David B wrote:
> I did end up going back to the Riv shop last
Please report back when you get your new sam or the chance to ride the
different sizes. I am wanting to get a sam for a dedicated drop bar rando
bike. I am 6'1" PBH 90 and my 60cm Appaloosa fits just how I like with a
wavy style handlebar. I'm thinking about buying a 60cm SH from my local
David,
You are in Berkeley, you should BART over to RIv World HQ and test one out
on the local loop up in shell ridge (its dry and perfect riding conditions
right now!). Last I remember there is a 57 demo with billie/alba, but might
be worth calling them first before making the appointment.
Hi David,
I am 6'1 with a 91cm PBH and ride a 60cm Sam from the most recent batch
from 2022.
Overall I'm pretty happy with the size, but can't help but think about how
I'd feel in the 57cm. I've never felt "uncomfortable" on the bike, it's
definitely the comfiest bike I've ever owned, but it
Thank you for the responses, everyone. I'm leaning towards getting a size
60 based on all of the feedback. I do envision running the Hillborne mostly
with flat or swept bars, and so it makes sense to prioritize that with the
sizing.
Andrew, your observation comparing the stack and reach of the
Hi David,
Bike Insights can compare these two sizes side-by-side for
you:
https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=638a1581423463001c996235,638a1581423463001c996236,
The 60cm Sam is 30mm taller in stack than the 57, but only 5mm longer in
reach. If you had to raise the saddle and bars by a
I’m 6’1 with a 91 PBH. My 60 Appaloosa fits perfectly with swept back bars.
I had a 61.5 Homer (newer one, for which the top tube is really long) and
it was way too much reach for drops for me (long legs, short torso, not
particularly flexible). I replaced the 61.5 Homer with a 58 and the fit
I find Rivendells sizing based on PBH to oversimplify getting a good bike
fit. They are very smart but they also have their preferences and I think
most of the time their suggestions lean on that preference more than it
should. The smaller size will be way easier to fit with drops if you really
For your reference I’m about 6’1 with a 92 pbh and i ride a 60 appaloosa
w/swept backs, and would not want to go smaller. However i have no interest
in putting drops on that bike, I’m guessing sam might have a slightly
shorter top tube than Joe. hesitant to tell you what you should do,
My recommendation is to go with the 60 Sam. You said you want to ride with
swept back bars and use it for mostly commuting and general riding. Based
on your described use case I'd say go with the 60 all day long. If someday
you want to ride the Sam with drops you could still do so with a short
Yeah, I actually thought these were going to be friction shifters (love it
on my Expedition tube-mounts) but not so! I’m disliking it right now
because of some phantom shifts on my last 2 rides. I’m trying to figure
out if it’s just new bike cable stretching or if my shifters suck, or if
If you're interested in drinking the friction kool aid, give that d ring on
your right shifter a turn over the the dark side (just continuing your star
wars theme)
On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 2:16:41 PM UTC-4, Nathan Mattia wrote:
>
> Sorry. Here's the link that works
>
>
>
Sorry. Here's the link that works
https://pipesbikesandleather.com/2020/03/25/rivendell-sam-hillborne-build-post/
On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 at 12:29:45 PM UTC-5, Nathan Mattia wrote:
>
> Here's the link to my blog post on my new Sam Hillborne build. Please
> comment here or there with
Because of the sitting position (upright) and my weight (270 lbs.) I
compress the springs somewhat when I sit on the saddle, but there is no
bouncing while pedaling until I hit a bump or dip and the saddle dips a
bit. It is the most comfortable bicycle that I have ever ridden over
bumps. I
It's a beautiful bike--a really nice color scheme. I LOVE that saddle.
My comfort improved when I switched to a Flyer, a sprung saddle. Do you
bounce much with that saddle, or does it just gently soak up the bumps in
the road?
Happy riding!
Roberta
On Sunday, March 17, 2019 at 12:02:27
I believe the 174 is the Fairweather Allroad bar. I think all dimensions are
identical to the noodle except for a shirter reach. I have one on my Saluki and
love it. Paired with SRAM levers it provides enough reach without feeling like
I'm falling over and includes the pull back towards the
Thanks for all the comments. Of course, the bike doesn't arrive until I've
gone back to work on Tuesday after being off for 9 days and then have to
fly out to Southern California for work! Really looking forward to biking
this Sunday when I get back.
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 6:50:48 PM
Daniel,
Beautiful! Congratulations.
Evan
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I'm not sure what a "174" is. I have the Nitto Choco handlebars.
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 3:52:52 PM UTC-8, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> How did you like the 174 over the noodle? Is it really like a mini noodle?
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How did you like the 174 over the noodle? Is it really like a mini noodle?
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Yes, I ended up taking that cover off the derailleur. It was just a cover
to protect it while in transit.
Dan
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 8:47:32 AM UTC-8, Ryan Fleming wrote:
>
> Lookin good...I like the black and cream. Sodo you leave that cover
> over the derailleur on? Or is that
Lookin good...I like the black and cream. Sodo you leave that cover
over the derailleur on? Or is that just more evidence of careful packing?
Hoping you enjoy your new bike...let us all know how you like it and
pictures, please !
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 2:20:51 AM UTC-6, Daniel
Looks great Dan-O! They are Choco Norm bars.
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 3:20:51 AM UTC-5, Daniel Betancourt wrote:
>
> Thanks. They're supposed to be Nitto Choco bars.
>
> On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 12:48:49 AM UTC-5, Ash A wrote:
>>
>> That's a nice color combination indeed!
>>
>>
Thanks. They're supposed to be Nitto Choco bars.
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 12:48:49 AM UTC-5, Ash A wrote:
>
> That's a nice color combination indeed!
>
> Curious what handlebar is this..
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, 3 January 2017 18:50:48 UTC-8, Daniel Betancourt wrote:
>>
>> To say I was
That's a nice color combination indeed!
Curious what handlebar is this..
On Tuesday, 3 January 2017 18:50:48 UTC-8, Daniel Betancourt wrote:
>
> To say I was excited to hear the FedEx delivery truck would be an
> understatement. After unboxing and assembling the bike I attached the
> Garmin
Ps- I go about 2.5 degrees nose down on my Flyers. I think they might level a
bit when you sit on them.
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I did my first few centuries on a Sam. Slammed Noodle drops. Sprung flyer
saddle. Total comfort the whole time.
Congrats and please post updates about the century!
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Very nice indeed - I like the handlebar arrangement a great deal. In terms
of the Brooks saddle, I find if it points slightly up at the nose until the
buttock-divots form, then almost completely level it, that works really
well (this is a process of quite a few hours riding time). I also like
Congrats on the new bike. I've had a few Sam Hillbornes and kept them light
enough to do a number of 70 plus mile rides. Very comfortable and this set
up looks great.
Enjoy,
Brice in San Diego
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 6:50:48 PM UTC-8, Daniel Betancourt wrote:
>
> To say I was excited
You can distinguish between actual TT length and theoretical/horizontal
length. Because of the ~6-degree upslope of the TT on the hillborne, at
least on the the original metallic green ones, the size 56 had a 57.5
actual TT length, but a 59cm horizontal length (measured level to the
Yes Matt, the original green Hilbornes had a 59cm horizontal top tube, and
my orange one has a 57.5cm horizontal top tube, 1.5cm shorter than the
original run.
On Monday, July 28, 2014 10:42:24 AM UTC-7, Matt Beebe wrote:
You can distinguish between actual TT length and
I don't want to confuse the discussion about the Samuel Hillborne, the 56cm
Samuel Hillborne in particular, but here goes.
Not every 56cm Samuel Hillborne has a 59cm TT. Patrick Moore's prototype
Waterford Hillborne undoubtedly did, and the Geo charts still say that it
does, but my Orange
The original green Hillborne had a longer top tube. Even though I should
have purchased a 60, based on the TT length, went with a 56. My present
60cm Hillborne works fine with a Dirtdrop stem and Noodles. At least for
my preference for being pretty upright while riding.
Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN
I AGREE !!!
Grant sold me a Long Low 58 with a very long top tube = NO standover
clerance way too long top tube (could have turned the stem around backward
to fit right). NOW it is with a new happy owner.
Charlie
On Thursday, July 24, 2014 11:59:52 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
A
It must be true that you ended up with too bigga bike. I don't remember the
particulars and I'm sorry if the bike didn't work out. I may have
misunderstood some answers to questions or maybe didn't ask the questions
(the ones that steer me toward a recommendation) as clearly as I should've.
I
On Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:59:52 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
A dissenting opinion: I had a 56 and found the 59 cm top tube too long. If
you have a preferred bar and a preferred bar position with respect to the
saddle, there are limits to adjusting reach by adjusting the stem -- I
I have a 60cm Sam in Nashville. That might not help much, but a woman down the
street has several 56 cm Rivs I think if you want I can ask her. Not Sams
though. My Dad has ridden my 60cm with no probes but he would ride a 56 if he
had his own. Rivs are just so flexy!
Edwin
Dweendaddy at hot
Did you repaint the green Hillborne maroon with cream headtube, or do you
have two of them?
Hope I wasn't being too nosy by checking out the rest of your photostream ;)
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 12:57 PM, jandrews_nyc jasonaschwa...@gmail.com
wrote:
I have a PBH of 84.5 and purchased a new 56cm
Most people seem happy with the Rivendell method of sizing for their bikes.
*If this is your first bike*, just go with their sizing. You can always use
a shorter or longer stem, and rotate the brake levers little more forward
or back on the handlebars (if using drops) to try to buy the
A dissenting opinion: I had a 56 and found the 59 cm top tube too long. If
you have a preferred bar and a preferred bar position with respect to the
saddle, there are limits to adjusting reach by adjusting the stem -- I
could not get the Sam's Noodle close enough to the saddle with a normal
stem,
54 PBH? Presuming you mean 84?
I have an 89 PBH, and a 56 Sam would fit me fine, especially with the 59.5
top tube. I would size down, unless you are planning on riding with upright
bars. Then I would say still size down, but you could get away with it.
Cheers,
David
it isn't a contest. Just
If your PBH measurement is correct, i'd agree with David that it might be
too long in the top unless you plan to use albatross or bosco bars. I'm
similiar measurements to David and my 56 is just about right with drops.
Have you talked to Rivendell? They can talk you through it.
On
I had a 56 Sam and have an 84 PBH. With noodles it was too long in the TT.
Tried a shorter step but it was a no-go. It probably would have been fine
with upright bars but I was looking for more of a road bike.
Dan
On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Minh mgiangs...@gmail.com wrote:
If your PBH
I would go with whatever size Riv recommends for your PBH assuming you
measured it correctly. My PBH is 79 and I am 5'6 tall; both my Rivs that I
have bought from Riv have been sized very well for me.
The 54 is a typo, I'm assuming. Measure you PBH a couple of different times
before calling
I have a PBH of 84.5 and purchased a new 56cm S.H. in '09.
The top tube is very long and I used a 8cm stem with noodles.
With bigger tires, the top tube is right up as high as it can go, but you
can def make it work..just use a short stem.
*http://tinyurl.com/p6h4p3q*
On Wednesday, July 23,
Great looking bike! Enjoy it. Yet another build that is inspiring me to
swap out the drop bars on my Hilsen for Albatross bars.
--mike
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I understand completely.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20853610@N05/9332469028/
On Sunday, August 4, 2013 9:54:27 AM UTC-7, Johnny Alien wrote:
So I have had my new Sam for a couple of weeks now but have yet to post
photos. I took it on a nice and easy Sunday morning trail ride and I
SOMEONE'S ready for a large saddlesack.
cc
On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Tom Virgil tevir...@gmail.com wrote:
I understand completely.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20853610@N05/9332469028/
On Sunday, August 4, 2013 9:54:27 AM UTC-7, Johnny Alien wrote:
So I have had my new Sam for a
Congrats, and enjoy! Thanks for the pic. Looks real nice.
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Fantastic! Enjoy the ride!
With abandon,
Patrick
On Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:54:27 AM UTC-6, Johnny Alien wrote:
So I have had my new Sam for a couple of weeks now but have yet to post
photos. I took it on a nice and easy Sunday morning trail ride and I
absolutely love it. It has a
That looks beautiful, Johnny! Glad you're enjoying the ride. I'm waiting
for my munchkin sized 47 AHH to ship.
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I haven't had the courage to ride my sam hillborne on the salted roads in
SE MN. Scrolled through your pics...very nice. Maybe we meet on the
Spring Valley ride the first week of June. Tim P.
On Friday, March 22, 2013 10:58:22 AM UTC-5, EricP wrote:
Yes, I sold my original Hillborne last
After finishing this post will get ready to head out on a maiden voyage.
Thanks for having your priorities straight: pictures for the group first,
then a test ride. :)
On Friday, March 22, 2013 9:58:22 AM UTC-6, EricP wrote:
Yes, I sold my original Hillborne last summer after becoming
Great looking bicycle - what attracted you to a second Hillborne after not
being taken with the first?
On Friday, March 22, 2013 9:58:22 AM UTC-6, EricP wrote:
Yes, I sold my original Hillborne last summer after becoming dissatisfied
with it (and myself at the time). While not getting
Cool bike. Even though I lived in Wisconsin for five years, something seems
wrong about building up a brand new bike in late March with studded tires!
I hope spring is coming soon for you folks.
Bryan in LA
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Very similar to my new
ridehttp://www.flickr.com/photos/90785999@N06/8575250744/in/photostream,
in terms of set up:
I have 1x8 going, with the option to go 2x8 (if I add a front derailer or
shift with my finger/stick/toe)
I have albas instead of your more flat bars.
I'm loving it so
Michael, no it doesn't seem to create any extra stress. The drivetrain had
been on another bike before this, and I've used the concept in the past.
Ian, it wasn't that I wasn't taken with the first Hillborne. Had it for a
few years, actually. More like it was too small and the present bikes
Thanks for the update. It would be great to learn of your impressions of
this bicycle compared to the LHT and your other Riv's (past and present)
once you've had time to try it out for a few longer rides on the Marathon
Racers.
On Friday, March 22, 2013 3:38:25 PM UTC-6, EricP wrote:
Yes I have a Hobo bag that I use when I need to carry something. I
like this frame it fits me well and feels pretty solid. The handling
is real predictablein fact I had a moment of inattention that
found me wandering towards the ditch and I caught it just in time and
the steering seemed to
Beautiful bike Charlie. Enjoy it. Outside of wanting a bigger tire are
you otherwise happy with the Ribimos? The shape looks great. I've been
surprised that more people don't use them, but then, I think it's hard
to beat Jack Browns for a large round supple tire or Marathon Supremes
for a larger
I agree Mike.the Ribmos are fine but the ideal tire for my weight
is between 35-38mm (actual) with the Marathon Supreme being the
current favorite. The Ribmo seems durable and relatively flat proof
but not particularly speedy. Honestly though I have no data to support
that and don't even use a
Love the way the pump fits just between the double tubes. Great idea
to get a white pump, mimics the look of the white panel on the seat
tube. How are you liking the longboards? Can't help but notice that
those fenders are still short compared to aluminum Honjos/VOs, esp
forward of the fork crown.
Actually the fenders are by Planet Bike and came off my old Raleigh.
Your suspicions are correct the Longboards are a little longer. I tend
to cannibalize other bicycles to build a new one. I think someone gave
me the pump too...kind of crazy how that all worked out.
On May 6, 1:29 pm, Earl
It's a very nice looking bike. Eventually am going to build up one of my
bikes with moustache bars and see how they work.
Besides the Supremes, also look at the Marathon Duremes. Have them on my
Sam Hillborne and they are nice. I personally think they roll a bit nicer
than the Supremes.
Yes..anything I don't have to purchase is awesome..I like the
mustache bars set high that's what makes them work for me.
On May 6, 5:17 pm, EricP ericpl...@aol.com wrote:
It's a very nice looking bike. Eventually am going to build up one of my
bikes with moustache bars and see how they
To me, that is definitely the way to mount Moustache bars: on a tall Dirt Drop
stem. Get them up and not too far forward.
I've ridden my Hillborne a lot that way and it really works well for me. An
Acorn non-boxy bag works surprisingly well on such a setup and gives you
rider-facing pockets.
I like it! Makes me wonder if I should get the mustache instead of
albas on my forthcoming blue sam. What size tires are you running?
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Panaracer Pribmo's 700x32 but I plan on something about 35-38 mm wide
eventually. I'm liking the mustache bar, its really nice for traffic
jamming on a commute. The brake levers are in a good position for
powerful braking and the more upright position is nice for that too.
The wide sprung saddle
oops! meant .Ribmo's
On May 5, 8:17 pm, charlie cl_v...@hotmail.com wrote:
Panaracer Pribmo's 700x32 but I plan on something about 35-38 mm wide
eventually. I'm liking the mustache bar, its really nice for traffic
jamming on a commute. The brake levers are in a good position for
powerful
-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: New Sam Hillborne Color Pre-Sale
It is a tremendously tempting deal. I really really like the
color.
On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:20:37 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
Poking around Riv site and saw they have the new colored Sams for
pre-
sale
PM
To:
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: New Sam Hillborne Color Pre-Sale
It is a tremendously tempting deal. I really really like the
color.
On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:20:37 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
Poking around Riv site
That's mighty close to pencil blue:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/archivalclothing/1659288315/in/pool-70497321@N00/
Awesome, especially with the creme head tube accent.
On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:57:33 PM UTC-4, Manuel Acosta wrote:
Having seen the new bruise bleu in person I can attest to
It is a tremendously tempting deal. I really really like the color.
On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:20:37 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
Poking around Riv site and saw they have the new colored Sams for pre-
sale for an incredible deal at $1050.00! Damn wish it wasnt time to
pay for my kid's
al Message- From: William <tapebu...@gmail.com>Sent: Mar 20, 2012 3:45 PM To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: [RBW] Re: New Sam Hillborne Color Pre-Sale It is a tremendously tempting deal. I really really like the color. On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:20:37 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
Poking
] Re: New Sam Hillborne Color Pre-Sale
It is a tremendously tempting deal. I really really like the color.
On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:20:37 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
Poking around Riv site and saw they have the new colored Sams for pre-
sale for an incredible deal at $1050.00! Damn
to
keep the cost down closer to $1000. Whenever the lower cost Rivendells
creep up in price, I get nervous for some reason.
-Original Message-
From: William
Sent: Mar 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.**comrbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: New Sam
. Whenever the lower cost Rivendells
creep up in price, I get nervous for some reason.
-Original Message-
From: William
Sent: Mar 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.**comrbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: New Sam Hillborne Color Pre-Sale
@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: New Sam Hillborne Color Pre-Sale
It is a tremendously tempting deal. I really really like the color.
On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:20:37 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
Poking around Riv site and saw they have the new colored Sams
the lower cost Rivendells
creep up in price, I get nervous for some reason.
-Original Message-
From: William
Sent: Mar 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To:
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: New Sam Hillborne Color Pre-Sale
. Whenever the lower cost Rivendells
creep up in price, I get nervous for some reason.
-Original Message-
From: William
Sent: Mar 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To:
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.**comrbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: New Sam Hillborne Color Pre-Sale
-owners-bunch@googlegroups.**comrbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: New Sam Hillborne Color Pre-Sale
It is a tremendously tempting deal. I really really like the color.
On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:20:37 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
Poking around Riv site and saw
Love that color.
On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:20:37 AM UTC-7, Peter M wrote:
Poking around Riv site and saw they have the new colored Sams for pre-
sale for an incredible deal at $1050.00! Damn wish it wasnt time to
pay for my kid's summer camp or I would snap that up right now.
Having seen the new bruise bleu in person I can attest to how great
the color is.
Emily's new bike is the bruise bleu
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mannyacosta/6845791516/
On Mar 19, 10:43 am, Ryan Ray ryanr...@gmail.com wrote:
Love that color.
On Monday, March 19, 2012 10:20:37 AM UTC-7,
Beautiful, Darin. I really like seeing a beautiful classic put
together with good, affordable parts.
Happy trails,
michael
On Apr 20, 3:08 pm, Darin G. dbg...@mac.com wrote:
My Sam Hillborne is complete with all accessories
http://gallery.me.com/dbgoff#18
Frameset: Rivendell Sam
Working on better pictures--unfortunately Mr. Nikon is in the shop,
again, so when he gets back we'll try for some better shots.
On Apr 20, 5:38 pm, happyriding happyrid...@yahoo.com wrote:
Whoa! We are going to need to see: 1) More pictures! 2) Sharp
pictures!
of that beauty.
--
You
Darin,
Cool - you're gonna enjoy that.
Alex
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Dick,
Add me to the list of those who have drooled over your stable. Great
bikes and great pictures as well! I found your collection when I was
looking for everything I could find about the Bombadil and your
pictures and comments did two things: they pushed me over the edge of
my decision to
I agree with the color comment. I too, found you Bombadil when searching for
pictures to try to decide what color to have my Bombadil painted with. I
too, found it incredibly beautiful, but in the end, chose to go with a more
subdued look and went with the darkest green available, almost black in
Have you seen the orange in person?
I encountered an orange Hillborne on the road last Friday. (Sandia
Crest, NM) and is was stunning! Closest I've seen to the old XO-1
pumpkin.
Of course I'm a sucker for anything orange ;-)
Ryan
On Nov 7, 2009, at 17:33, Bruce fullylug...@yahoo.com
Nicely done Dick. I must say you have one of the finest collections of
bicycles (at least the type I enjoy) that I have ever seen. I also
realize there is someone else out there that enjoys moustache bars as
much as I do. Out of curiosity why the 48 spoke wheels?
On Nov 7, 11:08 am, Dick Gilpin
Title: New Sam Hillborne
Excellent. The more I see the Sam Hillborne, the more I admire it.It's one of those great deals that you hope people take advantage of while it's available. Kind of like the 2003 Romulus. Or mid-to-late-80's Trek 400's. Or the 1991 MB-4.-Original Message-
From:
Nicely kitted out. I think you'll like it over the miles. The green paint is a
super shade. I can't get excited over the orange Hillbornes for some reason,
though the Rambouillet orange was great IMO
From: Dick Gilpin dgil...@cox.net
To:
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