Re: [RBW] Re: Eroica California

[Jim M.]

I rode it on my Eisentraut with period appropriate Campy Nuovo Record and 
30mm tubular tires. As I recall, they allow newer lugged steel bikes, and I 
definitely saw a few Rivs. There were several folks from this list and 
I-BOB. There's a bike expo and Concours for people to show off their rides, 
which is great if you like looking at old steel bikes. There were awards 
for things like best original Cinelli. Central coast Calif has a lot of 
beautiful areas for riding. They partnered with local wineries to route 
through vineyard roads, so there was a lot of strade bianche. Riv content 
-- I met George Mount, who used to race against Grant back in the day, and 
I met Andy Hampsten, who has extolled Jack Brown tires. 

jim m
walnut creek

On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 11:05:59 AM UTC-7 Bill Lindsay wrote:

> If I decide to gear way lower, I'll swap over a vintage compact double.  I 
> have a Sugino AT triple converted to Guard/46/30.  
>
> BL in EC
>
> On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 7:59:12 AM UTC-7 Keith Weaver wrote:
>
>> Bill, 
>>
>> I also have a brown Gran Premio! I especially like the Suntour symmetric 
>> shifters. Univega was the brand sold in my childhood bike store, so when I 
>> saw mine in a used bike shop, I had to have it. They'll always have a soft 
>> spot in my heart. If I were to ride mine in the CA Eroica, I think I'd need 
>> some lower gearing, maybe the Velo Orange 46-30 crankset.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Keith
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 7:28 PM Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>>
>>> I've got the bike for it, and I'm just waiting for the stars to align to 
>>> do the ride.  My "Eroica Bike" is a time capsule 1983 Univega Gran Premio.  
>>> I've got ~700 miles on it, and will not have any issue using it for an 
>>> Eroica day.  
>>>
>>>
>>> https://flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/49563967306/in/album-72157713199195553/
>>>
>>> BL in EC
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, April 2, 2024 at 9:41:21 AM UTC-7 chefd...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 Curious if anyone on this forum is also a Vintage enthusiast and has 
 interest in the Eroica event that is run on the Central Coast of 
 California. I've ridden it a few times on my PX-10... its a great ride, 
 although the organization that runs the event has had its ups and downs 
 over the years. Currently, the website lists September 22, 2024 as the run 
 date, but the registration button leads to last year's sign-updoes 
 anyone have any better intel? 
>>>
>>> -- 
>>>
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>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Gearing Choices

[Bill Lindsay]

"All TBD,"

Even OLD is TBD?  135?  130?  126?  120?  something else?  I'm super into 
120 and 126 lately, so I'll be interested to hear it if you are also 
considering a legacy OLD.

BL in EC

On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 2:29:06 PM UTC-7 Ted Durant wrote:

> On Apr 3, 2024, at 11:54 AM, Piaw Na  wrote:
>
> I'm a big fan of half-step + granny for 7-speed rear cassettes and 
> freewheels. I think I even wrote an article about it for the Rivendell 
> Reader at one point (good luck digging it up!). What killed it for me was 
> once cassettes got to the point where constructing your cassette was no 
> longer supported or too much work, it was no longer practical.
>
>
> I remember that, and probably could dig it up! And, yeah, you really have 
> to build your own. 
>
> Those who live in places where 20+% grades are unusual or cannot be found 
> probably won't bother with my low gears.
>
>
> This is super important and where “YMWCV”! I should have prefaced my 
> entire treatise by making it clear that most of my riding is in SE 
> Wisconsin on mostly paved roads and crushed limestone trails. The limestone 
> trails are abandoned railroad beds, so rarely exceed 2% grade. We have only 
> a few hills that approach 20% and they are quite short. Mostly it’s rollers 
> that are 5%, occasionally 10%. The wind, on the other hand ….  
>
> Riding in the LA area, especially trying to go up avg 10% dirt/rocky 
> trails that go on for miles, my gearing needs are somewhat different. One 
> of the thoughts I’m keeping in mind as I spec a new bike is flexibility … 
> if I travel with this bike, will I be able to easily modify the 
> gearing/tires/fenders/racks/lighting to match the intended conditions. But 
> then, I also have a few different bikes, so ultimate flexibility might not 
> be paramount :-)
>
> On Apr 3, 2024, at 12:33 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>
> So, you have settled on what your gearing and derailleur choices will be? 
>  If yes, what exactly will they be?  What rear wheel OLD will you be using? 
>  Will it be a cassette rear hub or a freewheel?  How many cogs in back, 
> what cogs?  If it's a contemporary 10 or 11speed cassette width, have you 
> confirmed your Suntour RD will sweep that horizontal distance?  What 
> shifters will you use?  
>
>
> All TBD, but I can confirm that a Vx GT and a Cyclone MkII GT will cover 9 
> -11 cog cassettes. In fact, a Cyclone MkII GT executes flawless index 
> shifting on a 9-speed 12-36 cassette using Shimano 10-speed bar end 
> shifters. I’ve posted elsewhere about this … SunTour derailers should index 
> perfectly on a Shimano-SRAM n speed cassette with Shimano n-1 speed 
> shifters, where 7<=n<=9. By “index perfectly” I mean that the horizontal 
> derailer movement is exactly the right amount given the cable pull. An odd 
> and interesting historical math artifact.
>
> What is also important is related to that. SunTour derailers have a high 
> actuation ratio, meaning lots of horizontal movement relative to cable 
> pull. As a result, “normal” shift levers are able to move a SunTour 
> derailer across 8-12 cogs where other derailers would require a shift lever 
> with more cable pull (a larger diameter drum around which the cable is 
> wound). SRAM and newer Shimano derailers have much lower actuation ratios, 
> driven (I hypothesize) by a desire to increase the amount of cable pull per 
> shift and, consequently, increase the tolerance for imperfections in cable 
> movement. Campagnolo, interestingly, _increased_ the actuation ratio 
> slightly when they went from “old” 9 speed to “new” 9 speed and later. 
> Always marching to their own beat, those Italians.
>
> My choice of shifters will depend on several factors, including the 
> gearing, the derailer, whether I feel indexing is important, and whether I 
> want to deal with the additional complication of handlebar-mounted shifters 
> on a bike that might get rinko’d. 
>
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee, WI USA
>
>

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[RBW] Re: sold: Nitto fillet brazed Faceplater quill stem, 31.8, 110mm, 225 quill length

[eddietheflay]

sold

On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 7:27:39 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

>
> thx
> On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 7:28:25 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>
>> If you have smaller diameter bars, I can include shims to make it work.
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 7:26:20 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>
>>> Been installed but really close to perfect. Maybe a couple of tiny 
>>> hairline marks but still looks like bike jewelry to me. Hard to find, good 
>>> to own.
>>>
>>> $130 net to me gets it shipped to you.
>>>
>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/9C4QGw8VysEE3AVW9
>>>
>>

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[RBW] sold: Nitto fillet brazed Faceplater quill stem, 31.8, 110mm, 225 quill length

[eddietheflay]

thx
On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 7:28:25 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> If you have smaller diameter bars, I can include shims to make it work.
>
> On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 7:26:20 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>
>> Been installed but really close to perfect. Maybe a couple of tiny 
>> hairline marks but still looks like bike jewelry to me. Hard to find, good 
>> to own.
>>
>> $130 net to me gets it shipped to you.
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/9C4QGw8VysEE3AVW9
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Gearing Choices

[Nick Payne]

I've attached a gearing spreadsheet I use, which allows me to easily 
compare three different gearing setups in the one sheet. It's in ODS 
(OpenOffice) format, but I believe that Excel can open and read that 
format. It also shows speed in each gear at a specified cadence - I have 
speed as KPH because we use metric in this country - if you want MPH 
values, just modify the speed formulas to divide the KPH values by 1.609.

Nick Payne

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gears.ods
Description: Zip archive

Re: [RBW] Re: [BOB] Re: Bump! ISO: 10-speed spacers. And question.

[Ted Durant]

On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 2:05:32 PM UTC-5 Garth wrote:

https://bike.bikegremlin.com/3573/bicycle-cassette-rear-chainrings-standards/#2.1.2

https://bike.bikegremlin.com/1232/bicycle-cassette-compatibility/


Jackpot! Thanks for sharing!
 

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Re: [RBW] Gearing Choices

[Ted Durant]

> On Apr 3, 2024, at 11:54 AM, Piaw Na  wrote:
> 
> I'm a big fan of half-step + granny for 7-speed rear cassettes and 
> freewheels. I think I even wrote an article about it for the Rivendell Reader 
> at one point (good luck digging it up!). What killed it for me was once 
> cassettes got to the point where constructing your cassette was no longer 
> supported or too much work, it was no longer practical.

I remember that, and probably could dig it up! And, yeah, you really have to 
build your own. 

> Those who live in places where 20+% grades are unusual or cannot be found 
> probably won't bother with my low gears.

This is super important and where “YMWCV”! I should have prefaced my entire 
treatise by making it clear that most of my riding is in SE Wisconsin on mostly 
paved roads and crushed limestone trails. The limestone trails are abandoned 
railroad beds, so rarely exceed 2% grade. We have only a few hills that 
approach 20% and they are quite short. Mostly it’s rollers that are 5%, 
occasionally 10%. The wind, on the other hand ….  

Riding in the LA area, especially trying to go up avg 10% dirt/rocky trails 
that go on for miles, my gearing needs are somewhat different. One of the 
thoughts I’m keeping in mind as I spec a new bike is flexibility … if I travel 
with this bike, will I be able to easily modify the 
gearing/tires/fenders/racks/lighting to match the intended conditions. But 
then, I also have a few different bikes, so ultimate flexibility might not be 
paramount :-)

> On Apr 3, 2024, at 12:33 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:
> 
> So, you have settled on what your gearing and derailleur choices will be?  If 
> yes, what exactly will they be?  What rear wheel OLD will you be using?  Will 
> it be a cassette rear hub or a freewheel?  How many cogs in back, what cogs?  
> If it's a contemporary 10 or 11speed cassette width, have you confirmed your 
> Suntour RD will sweep that horizontal distance?  What shifters will you use?  

All TBD, but I can confirm that a Vx GT and a Cyclone MkII GT will cover 9 -11 
cog cassettes. In fact, a Cyclone MkII GT executes flawless index shifting on a 
9-speed 12-36 cassette using Shimano 10-speed bar end shifters. I’ve posted 
elsewhere about this … SunTour derailers should index perfectly on a 
Shimano-SRAM n speed cassette with Shimano n-1 speed shifters, where 7<=n<=9. 
By “index perfectly” I mean that the horizontal derailer movement is exactly 
the right amount given the cable pull. An odd and interesting historical math 
artifact.

What is also important is related to that. SunTour derailers have a high 
actuation ratio, meaning lots of horizontal movement relative to cable pull. As 
a result, “normal” shift levers are able to move a SunTour derailer across 8-12 
cogs where other derailers would require a shift lever with more cable pull (a 
larger diameter drum around which the cable is wound). SRAM and newer Shimano 
derailers have much lower actuation ratios, driven (I hypothesize) by a desire 
to increase the amount of cable pull per shift and, consequently, increase the 
tolerance for imperfections in cable movement. Campagnolo, interestingly, 
_increased_ the actuation ratio slightly when they went from “old” 9 speed to 
“new” 9 speed and later. Always marching to their own beat, those Italians.

My choice of shifters will depend on several factors, including the gearing, 
the derailer, whether I feel indexing is important, and whether I want to deal 
with the additional complication of handlebar-mounted shifters on a bike that 
might get rinko’d. 

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: [BOB] Re: Bump! ISO: 10-speed spacers. And question.

[Garth]

I've never seen extensive specs on the Miche way Patrick but Relja 
@bikegremlin has charts of Shimano and Campy. 


https://bike.bikegremlin.com/3573/bicycle-cassette-rear-chainrings-standards/#2.1.2

https://bike.bikegremlin.com/1232/bicycle-cassette-compatibility/

On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 11:08:16 AM UTC-4 Patrick Moore wrote:

> As a matter of fact, I've never used my Miche 10 sp cassettes with a 10 sp 
> chain but I suppose those must also work. (Since I built those Miche 10 sp 
> cassettes, I've used a chain "1 generation later" than the cassette because 
> web scuttlebutt says that this promotes crisper shifting. At least, I have 
> found no evidence to the contrary -- shifting is wonderful, as it is with 
> the same chain and the cassette made from 1.6 mm Shimano cogs and the same 
> 2 mm spacers.)
>
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 8:58 AM Patrick Moore  wrote:
>
>> ...  At any rate, an 11 speed chain works fine on those 10 sp Miche cogs.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Long Chainstays - What Problem/Deficiency Do They Solve?

[Garth]

A ribeye and a burger denote variations of what object ?

*beef*

As long chainstays and shorter chainstays denote variations of what object ?

*bike*


These are distinctions, designations, identifiers of forms. 
On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 9:05:07 AM UTC-4 brok...@gmail.com wrote:

> hot dogs vs. corn dogs
>
> On Apr 3, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Steve  wrote:
>
> How about "Spaghetti vs Macaroni" ?
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 6:21:28 AM UTC-4 Ryan Ogilvie wrote:
>
>> What are long chain stays in this metaphor? :-)
>>
>>
>> Sent from my mobile device. 
>>
>> On Apr 2, 2024, at 11:26 PM, fiddl...@gmail.com  
>> wrote:
>>
>> Ribeye vs Burger: both get the same job done in different ways…neither 
>> is a bad way to go
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, March 31, 2024 at 1:50:18 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Enjoyed reading the thread "Anyone else not a fan of long chainstays?", 
>>> especially Bill L's explanation of the RBW bike design philosophy.   Seems 
>>> the prevailing thought is long stays are better for
>>> upright riding
>>> single track type trails (vs a Rails to Trails type trail)
>>>
>>> I'll just note 2 'facts'
>>> 1  The vast majority of RBW models (except the Roadeo type frame) use 
>>> slack STA and HTA which may contribute to the ride effect when coupled with 
>>> long stays.
>>> 2.  In the beginning RBW addressed getting the bars higher and adopting 
>>> a non-racer riding style (back at 45° with hands on hoods), which IMHO were 
>>> solutions to actual problems.
>>>
>>> *So What problem or current deficiency in bike design is Grant solving 
>>> by using long chain stays*
>>> Just to bring bikes to market that no one else is building??
>>> Or do they solve a real problem???
>>>
>>> John Hawrylak
>>> Woodstown NJ
>>>
>>> FWIW 2 of 3 of my frames have 44 to 45cm chain stays, and 1 has a 43cm 
>>> chain stay.It's hard to notice a ride difference.
>>>
>> -- 
>>
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
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> .
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Re: [RBW] Re: how wide of wheels and tires will a specialized seqoia handle

['William Watson' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I have a 81 Sequoia built in 3Rensho's shop. Mine clears 33 Soma Supple 
Vitesse on 700c wheels with no fenders. I might try 35s at some point, but 
these are nice for now and I have other bikes with bigger tires. 

I thought I had heard the later years had more clearance, but I just read 
somewhere that perhaps the Merz version had steeper angles and less 
clearance so as not to compete with the Expedition. 

Will in MN

On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 1:33:03 PM UTC-5 brok...@gmail.com wrote:

> Roman at Riv has a 59cm Sequoia converted to 650b. Here’s a feature from 
> the Riv blog:
>
> [image: romansequoiabrighter-5.jpg]
>
> Roman's 59cm Sequoia - 87cm PBH 
> 
> rivbike.com 
> 
> 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Craigslist, etc 2024

[Mike Godwin]

Gone! Its orange, it even sells fast.
Mike SLO CA 
On Monday, April 1, 2024 at 7:24:20 AM UTC-7 chefd...@gmail.com wrote:

> check out this Riv adjacent Ebisu in Davis, CA 
>
> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1045901090509133/?ref=search_code=null_story_type=post=browse_serp%3Ad855af6f-dc71-4c85-b170-807584484136
> On Saturday, March 30, 2024 at 3:16:26 PM UTC-7 Josh C wrote:
>
>> 60cm Homer
>>
>> https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/bik/d/seattle-rivendell-homer-hilson/7732342937.html
>>
>> On Friday, March 29, 2024 at 7:35:42 PM UTC-4 Danny wrote:
>>
>>> That Heron was just posted to the Riv buy/sell/trade Facebook group. 
>>> $4000 shipped or less for local pick-up in Ann Arbor.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, March 21, 2024 at 8:43:22 AM UTC-5 Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>>
 Your patience continues to earn you money.  Now the price is down to 
 $6000.  Wait until September and you'll get paid to take it.  

 Bill Lindsay
 El Cerrito, CA

 On Friday, March 15, 2024 at 8:46:10 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

>>> I love a bargain 
>
> On Friday, March 15, 2024 at 7:40:48 AM UTC-7 Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
 It's on special offer now to those of us who are watching it.  Now 
>> avaiable for the low low price of $6250.  
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 13, 2024 at 9:59:37 AM UTC-7 LBleriot wrote:
>>
> Yikes!  I would love to add a Heron Touring to go with my Road, but 
>>> this Ebay listing is kind of a silly way to solicit real offers.
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, March 13, 2024 at 12:26:30 PM UTC-4 Patrick Moore 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>> Obviously the Chris King Headset Composite Index has gone through the 
 roof.

 On Tue, Mar 12, 2024 at 6:37 PM Josh C  
 wrote:

> wow
>
> On Monday, March 11, 2024 at 3:33:10 PM UTC-4 Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>> $7000  In a word, HA!  At least they are taking offers...  
>>
>> BL in EC
>>
>> On Monday, March 11, 2024 at 12:28:26 PM UTC-7 Michael Morrissey 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Heron Touring 
>>> 55cm
>>> $7000
>>> Walled Lake, Michigan
>>> Rare rare rare parts like Titanium Chris King headset, Nitto 
>>> racks, and full Campagnolo...
>>>
>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/176156925449?itmmeta=01HRQFP37XW2ZW9W57MX91XV8H=item2903c55e09:g:1-QAAOSwlT9le1Vr=enc%3AAQAI4A7jbJYmJLb0qhGidg8sdvoie5vcUpIvYrS%2BSMvrLJLvPiSDvKpjMsaHlJTCd1soc%2BS7lyI3DhBCJIMPjYbsw%2Bz2jx3FF1A8HaYOsrSGCGDojnJMNqrJC9m0GJvRkaVV7ejS4wIjNmkGPkl5PLpOEQlbXY8ub8%2FhPJelndP333HN%2B5YXfIBsGZBcK%2BedK1MLmQWY7kHqX4c4AzxDVzG%2B1rJVrllsTotNUBw2pKEhm%2BQDzzEV4sTfCquOQ0jScQhSElZQaXk3KjAGccNhRMGhT54kCgPjyFiebEPpJtvqbTfN%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4C02O_FYw
>>>
>>> On Sunday, March 3, 2024 at 5:36:38 PM UTC-5 Matthew Williams 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Roadini
 57cm
 2000
 Emeryville, CA


 https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/d/emeryville-rivendell-leo-roadini/7720529232.html

>>> -- 
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/74990461-7391-474d-8678-55c5cf2c2ef6n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>


 -- 

 Patrick Moore
 Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

 ---

 Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other 
 writing services


 ---

 *When thou didst not, savage, k**now thine own meaning,*

 *But wouldst gabble like a** thing most brutish,*

 *I endowed thy purposes w**ith words that made them known.*

>>>

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Re: [RBW] how wide of wheels and tires will a specialized seqoia handle

[Eric Daume]

I have an ‘82 as well and it has good clearance, depending on the brakes
used. My current Superbe Pros have lots of room, while the previous Tektros
were tighter. The previous owner said he could fit 35mm actual tires, and
that looks possible (at least with the Suntour brakes)

Eric

On Wednesday, April 3, 2024, JohnS  wrote:

> Hello Bo,
>
> I have an '82 Sequoia that I have RH 700 x 32 Stampede Pass tires mounted
> on Velocity Quill rims. Comfortable amount of clearance without fenders. I
> have not tired them with fenders since this is my naked road bike (no
> fenders nor racks). My Crust LB-canti is my fully dressed bike. I'm very
> happy with my Sequoia, nice neutral handling, smooth ride and descends
> well. FWIW, I've heard people on the 650B list like to convert the Sequoia
> to 650b, so 38 or even a 42 may fit.
>
> Good luck,
> JohnS
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 2:09:27 PM UTC-4 boru...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> there is a steel sequoia I am looking at remotely.
>> the tires on it say 23mm and look narrow as knife blades
>> there doesn't seem to be a lot of room beyond that
>> for wider wheels and tires.
>>
>> I bet there are 20 people on the list with experience
>> with this situation
>>
>> is the sequoia a good solution for someone hoping for
>> 32s or at least 28s?
>>
>> fenders would be too much to hope for?
>>
>> thanks for the expertise
>>
>> Bo
>> Bellingham
>>
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> 3a606153b658n%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

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[RBW] Re: how wide of wheels and tires will a specialized seqoia handle

[JohnS]

Hello Bo,

I have an '82 Sequoia that I have RH 700 x 32 Stampede Pass tires mounted 
on Velocity Quill rims. Comfortable amount of clearance without fenders. I 
have not tired them with fenders since this is my naked road bike (no 
fenders nor racks). My Crust LB-canti is my fully dressed bike. I'm very 
happy with my Sequoia, nice neutral handling, smooth ride and descends 
well. FWIW, I've heard people on the 650B list like to convert the Sequoia 
to 650b, so 38 or even a 42 may fit. 

Good luck,
JohnS



On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 2:09:27 PM UTC-4 boru...@gmail.com wrote:

> there is a steel sequoia I am looking at remotely.
> the tires on it say 23mm and look narrow as knife blades
> there doesn't seem to be a lot of room beyond that 
> for wider wheels and tires.
>
> I bet there are 20 people on the list with experience 
> with this situation
>
> is the sequoia a good solution for someone hoping for
> 32s or at least 28s?
>
> fenders would be too much to hope for?
>
> thanks for the expertise
>
> Bo 
> Bellingham
>

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[RBW] how wide of wheels and tires will a specialized seqoia handle

[bo richardson]

there is a steel sequoia I am looking at remotely.
the tires on it say 23mm and look narrow as knife blades
there doesn't seem to be a lot of room beyond that 
for wider wheels and tires.

I bet there are 20 people on the list with experience 
with this situation

is the sequoia a good solution for someone hoping for
32s or at least 28s?

fenders would be too much to hope for?

thanks for the expertise

Bo 
Bellingham

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Re: [RBW] Re: Eroica California

[Bill Lindsay]

If I decide to gear way lower, I'll swap over a vintage compact double.  I 
have a Sugino AT triple converted to Guard/46/30.  

BL in EC

On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 7:59:12 AM UTC-7 Keith Weaver wrote:

> Bill, 
>
> I also have a brown Gran Premio! I especially like the Suntour symmetric 
> shifters. Univega was the brand sold in my childhood bike store, so when I 
> saw mine in a used bike shop, I had to have it. They'll always have a soft 
> spot in my heart. If I were to ride mine in the CA Eroica, I think I'd need 
> some lower gearing, maybe the Velo Orange 46-30 crankset.
>
> Cheers,
> Keith
>
> On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 7:28 PM Bill Lindsay  wrote:
>
>> I've got the bike for it, and I'm just waiting for the stars to align to 
>> do the ride.  My "Eroica Bike" is a time capsule 1983 Univega Gran Premio.  
>> I've got ~700 miles on it, and will not have any issue using it for an 
>> Eroica day.  
>>
>>
>> https://flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/49563967306/in/album-72157713199195553/
>>
>> BL in EC
>>
>> On Tuesday, April 2, 2024 at 9:41:21 AM UTC-7 chefd...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Curious if anyone on this forum is also a Vintage enthusiast and has 
>>> interest in the Eroica event that is run on the Central Coast of 
>>> California. I've ridden it a few times on my PX-10... its a great ride, 
>>> although the organization that runs the event has had its ups and downs 
>>> over the years. Currently, the website lists September 22, 2024 as the run 
>>> date, but the registration button leads to last year's sign-updoes 
>>> anyone have any better intel? 
>>
>> -- 
>>
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>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Gearing Choices

[Bill Lindsay]

Ted

So, you have settled on what your gearing and derailleur choices will be? 
 If yes, what exactly will they be?  What rear wheel OLD will you be using? 
 Will it be a cassette rear hub or a freewheel?  How many cogs in back, 
what cogs?  If it's a contemporary 10 or 11speed cassette width, have you 
confirmed your Suntour RD will sweep that horizontal distance?  What 
shifters will you use?  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 8:53:56 AM UTC-7 Ted Durant wrote:

> This might be a fairly long post, apologies in advance, and just skip past 
> it or delete if you’re not interested in another treatise on gearing.
>
> I’m in line for a fancy custom bike and I’ve spent an inordinate amount of 
> time (it’s good to be retired) working on the gearing. Part of the quest is 
> that I want a normal-looking silver rear derailer. Given the direction the 
> industry is headed, and the uncertainty over the fate of the OM-1, this has 
> been keeping me up at night.
>
> So, gearing….   I’ll start with the three basic quantitative decisions: 1) 
> high and low gear, 2) how many cogs and chainrings, and 3) the spacing 
> between each gear. In some sense you could say that (3) is dictated by (1) 
> and (2), but a significant question is whether you want equal spacing 
> across all gears or closer spacing in some and wider in others.
>
> Starting with (1), we are immediately faced with how to measure a gear. 
> Most people who spend any time with this still use “gear inches” which, 
> while a quaint throwback to high-wheelers, is a reasonably intuitive metric 
> and lots of people immediately know what you mean when you say you’re 
> riding a 67” gear. For reference, in the 1980’s the standard 12-speed was 
> set up with a 53/39 crankset and something like a 13-24 set of cogs in 
> back. That’s a high gear (on 700x25c tires) of 108” and a low of 43”. 
>
> St. Sheldon annointed the Gain Ratio as the preferred metric, and for a 
> long time that’s what I tried to follow. It adds in the effect of crank 
> length, and you can think of it as the distance the bike travels relative 
> to how far your feet travel. That 80’s 12 speed, with a 170mm crank, has a 
> high Gain Ratio of 8.1 and a low of 3.2. It’s clever and theoretically 
> superior, and I know that a Gain Ratio a bit under 5.0 is my normal gear, 
> but it just hasn’t taken root for me.
>
> A simpler ratio would be the gear ratio itself, which doesn’t take into 
> account wheel size or crank length. It’s pretty easy to calculate that a 
> 52x13 is 4x, and 39x13 is 3x, and 39x24 is, well, a bit more than 1.5x. 
> Different wheel sizes may or may not matter to you.
>
> In my noodling on this I had a blinding flash of the obvious. What really 
> matters is how fast (or slow) I am going. For that, of course, I need to 
> know the cadence I am riding at. Everyone has (this is scientifically 
> proven, seriously) a preferred cadence, and a comfortable range around that 
> cadence. There is a pretty wide range among people of their preferred 
> cadence and range. So, I decided on my comfortable cadence and range, and 
> now I measure gears (taking into account wheel size) in the speed I am 
> going at my comfortable cadence. 
>
> The notion of comfortable cadence range then can play a major role in 
> determining how much spacing you want between gears. For example, my 
> comfortable cadence is around 87 rpm (aside - I’ve gone to shorter cranks), 
> and the range is 75 - 100. An ideal shift for me is one that takes me from 
> the limits of that range back to the center, which is a 14% difference. 
> (footnote: I measure differences as the natural log of the ratio, happy to 
> explain why but I don’t think it’s important here.)
>
> Alas, we are limited to 1-tooth differences, and sometimes 2-tooth 
> differences. And while a 10-11 change is 9.5%, a 14-15 change is 6.9%. The 
> evolution to smaller smallest cogs in back has significantly increased the 
> challenge to building a set of cogs with consistent differences across the 
> range. If you want a 14% change, you’re kind of stuck down at the small end 
> of the cogs, choosing between 10% or 20%. Even starting with a 12 tooth cog 
> helps considerably, as the 12-14 jump is 15.4%, which is very close to 
> ideal. On the other hand, starting with a larger small cog means having to 
> go to even larger large cogs to get a desired low gear, or widening the gap 
> in front, or going to a triple. 
>
> Alright, so there are essentially two approaches to using multiple 
> chainrings to arrive at a desired range of gears with even steps: crossover 
> and half-step. In a crossover system, you try for even, acceptable steps 
> between cogs in back, and when you run out of gears in back you cross over 
> to the other chainring. In a half-step system, you try for even steps that 
> are twice the desired difference and the chainring difference half of that. 
> So, you are making rough adjustments in back and fine 

Re: [RBW] Re: Gearing Choices

[Patrick Moore]

Piaw: It's easy and, thanks to AliExpress, relatively cheap to build your
own cassettes from loose parts -- at least, perhaps not for really huge
cogs. But a half step + granny could give me, anyway, nice close cruising
gears in the 75" to 60" range plus a downhill gear or two and some low
bailout gears.

I did this long ago for a commuter with 48/45 or 47/44 rings and a 7 speed
cassette, something like 13-32, half-stepping (more or less) the middle 5
cogs with cruising gears in the middle, and using the small for a downhill
gear and the big for a bailout gear:

25" wheel:
48 45
12 100
13 92 87
15 80 75
17 71 66
20 60 56
24 50 47
32 35

BTW, this shifted very nicely from hoods, ramps, and hooks with Kelley
Take-Offs, on pavement; would not want KTOs on bumpy dirt.


Generally speaking, though, with 9 cogs or more I prefer crossover, and
 I'll trade top high and bottom low for close middle ratios; with a 10
speed cassette giving many more possibilities and the new knobby 50 mm
Oracle Ridges requiring slightly lower sandy dirt gearing,  my Matthews
"road bike for (sandy) dirt" has a sub-compact plus granny:

28 1/2" wheel:
44 28
14 90
15 84
16 78
17 74
18 70
19 66
20 63 40
22 57 36
25 50 32
28 45 29




On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 10:54 AM Piaw Na  wrote:

> I'm a big fan of half-step + granny for 7-speed rear cassettes and
> freewheels. I think I even wrote an article about it for the Rivendell
> Reader at one point (good luck digging it up!). What killed it for me was
> once cassettes got to the point where constructing your cassette was no
> longer supported or too much work, it was no longer practical

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[RBW] Re: Gearing Choices

[Piaw Na]

I'm a big fan of half-step + granny for 7-speed rear cassettes and 
freewheels. I think I even wrote an article about it for the Rivendell 
Reader at one point (good luck digging it up!). What killed it for me was 
once cassettes got to the point where constructing your cassette was no 
longer supported or too much work, it was no longer practical.

Around here in the Bay Area, I simply decided to go for the lowest gear 
possible, and live with suboptimal flat riding gearing. The reason for this 
is even if I can climb a 20% grade when fresh on a 34x34 drivetrain, there 
will come a day when I have to climb that grade tired, or when carrying a 
load, or when I just not feeling like working that hard. Going 1mph slower 
on the flat by contrast just doesn't bother me that much. Just the other 
day I took my wife on a ride up the Wallace Stegner trail. We'd hiked that 
trail a couple of times but to my surprise my computer read a 20% grade. 
Her ebike had to work to get over it and I got into my 40x51. Having that 
on my bike makes me more likely to ride trails like that. Those who live in 
places where 20+% grades are unusual or cannot be found probably won't 
bother with my low gears.

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Re: [RBW] Re: How do I know when a saddle fits?

['Steven Seelig' via RBW Owners Bunch]

A lot of great input here.  I think I now know how individual an issue this 
can be just from the comments.

For me, just recently it has turned out that all those Brooks C17s I have 
ON ALL MY BIKEs are no longer working for me.  This may be TMI but it turns 
out that because of their shape, my sitbone locates a bit forward of the 
rear of the saddle and that causes paid for me as cocsysx bashes into the 
raises rear of the saddle.  Not really a problem if I am riding on flat 
ground.  When I do need more umps, and I push toward the back of the 
saddle, that is when I am enduring pain.  I am working with a physical 
therapist to figure out if this is because of a weak pelvic floor.

What I have discovered is that the whole saddle business is rapidly 
evolving, with such things as 3D printed saddles, men's specific Terry 
seats (from a company that made its name making women's saddles), the major 
players like Trek and Specialized have actual heat mapping that would help 
explain your hot spots - and those are just a few examples.  For me, I have 
learned that many of the newer saddle that have gaps for your dainty bits 
also have space to the rear so that your sitbone may reside on the saddle 
while the rear part of your rear may hang out back.  I am testing saddles 
with that profile and things look promising.

No, I am not selling all those Brooks quite yet - don't get any ideas.

Steve Seelig, District of Columbia

On Sunday, March 31, 2024 at 2:11:57 AM UTC-4 anthony@gmail.com wrote:

> +1 for the Rivet Pearl. I've got one on a Soma Double Cross, and the 
> version with the cutout is indeed an excellent fit for several positions 
> fore and aft!
>
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024, 3:25 PM ascpgh  wrote:
>
>> Emily, I have dealt with roughly your sort of physiological dimensioning 
>> my whole riding life and currently have three variations of coping, each 
>> with saddles that bear varying results. Those results have inseparable 
>> connection to how well each of the bikes they are on fits me. 
>>
>> My commuter is a stock Surly Disc Trucker "box bike". I added a Brooks 
>> B-17, pedals , Nitto RM 013 handlebar, dyno hub/ lights and a shorter a 
>> stem. The frame size that produced the best reach to the handlebars 
>> required a long  extension of the seat post and would have required a 
>> pretty high angle stem for those bars to be level with the seat, my comfort 
>> zone, and would also need significant setback dimension of the seat post 
>> head. The frame size that gives the best pedaling position requires a short 
>> stem to keep me from reaching, sort of. I still feel like I reach for the 
>> bars on that bike and do not ride it more than 20 miles. Even on the bigger 
>> size I find my legs drive me to slide back on the seat, onto the cantle 
>> (that metal thing) for many climbs before I pedal out of the saddle. Lots 
>> of compromises but it's my 14 hour lock up bike.
>>
>> My Rivendell Rambouillet was the best stock bike fit to my body I'd ever 
>> experienced and prevented me from going custom. Grant envisioned it as a 
>> long hours in the saddle sporty/light touring bike in the French 
>> audax/randonnour-inspired design for comfort over hours of riding. Shorter 
>> top tube than seat tube, with 2° upslope and 2 cm extended top head tube 
>> lug all conspired to provide this. It all conspires to fitting me well. It 
>> was a stock build kit from Riv with the B-17, RM 013 bars, I added the 
>> fenders, and changed the derailleurs, shifters and brakes. I do pedal from 
>> the saddle quite a bit more than others in groups before getting out of it 
>> and standing for hills. I still find myself sliding back on the seat for a 
>> rearward position to get some pushing forward on the pedal strokes when 
>> going uphill. That puts me on that cantle again, less than on the commuter 
>> but with the bars in more comfortable reach.
>>
>> I finally did go custom to for the sort of riding I have available and 
>> enjoy from my front door. I've refined what I look for in saddles, 
>> acknowledging that I do stay on the saddle across more terrain than others, 
>> scooting rearward for that pushing bit where others pop up, pedaling out of 
>> their saddles. That fore and aft position range has made me a connoisseur 
>> of saddle tops that have a platform of surface wide enough for my sit bones 
>> but also retaining that in the longitudal dimension of my back and forth 
>> positioning. I want that platform to be level and I don't want extra 
>> material rubbing my legs. 
>>
>> I am using a Rivet Pearl with cut out on my custom bike. The cut out lets 
>> the centerline of the leather "hammock" between the nose and cantle without 
>> the same amount of weight my sit bones applied to those spots that breaks 
>> in the points where they do bear weight. Without the cut out, that leather 
>> remains a linear high ridge from front to back where the less skeletal 
>> portions of my rear end are perched. I thought I 

[RBW] Gearing Choices

[Ted Durant]

This might be a fairly long post, apologies in advance, and just skip past 
it or delete if you’re not interested in another treatise on gearing.

I’m in line for a fancy custom bike and I’ve spent an inordinate amount of 
time (it’s good to be retired) working on the gearing. Part of the quest is 
that I want a normal-looking silver rear derailer. Given the direction the 
industry is headed, and the uncertainty over the fate of the OM-1, this has 
been keeping me up at night.

So, gearing….   I’ll start with the three basic quantitative decisions: 1) 
high and low gear, 2) how many cogs and chainrings, and 3) the spacing 
between each gear. In some sense you could say that (3) is dictated by (1) 
and (2), but a significant question is whether you want equal spacing 
across all gears or closer spacing in some and wider in others.

Starting with (1), we are immediately faced with how to measure a gear. 
Most people who spend any time with this still use “gear inches” which, 
while a quaint throwback to high-wheelers, is a reasonably intuitive metric 
and lots of people immediately know what you mean when you say you’re 
riding a 67” gear. For reference, in the 1980’s the standard 12-speed was 
set up with a 53/39 crankset and something like a 13-24 set of cogs in 
back. That’s a high gear (on 700x25c tires) of 108” and a low of 43”. 

St. Sheldon annointed the Gain Ratio as the preferred metric, and for a 
long time that’s what I tried to follow. It adds in the effect of crank 
length, and you can think of it as the distance the bike travels relative 
to how far your feet travel. That 80’s 12 speed, with a 170mm crank, has a 
high Gain Ratio of 8.1 and a low of 3.2. It’s clever and theoretically 
superior, and I know that a Gain Ratio a bit under 5.0 is my normal gear, 
but it just hasn’t taken root for me.

A simpler ratio would be the gear ratio itself, which doesn’t take into 
account wheel size or crank length. It’s pretty easy to calculate that a 
52x13 is 4x, and 39x13 is 3x, and 39x24 is, well, a bit more than 1.5x. 
Different wheel sizes may or may not matter to you.

In my noodling on this I had a blinding flash of the obvious. What really 
matters is how fast (or slow) I am going. For that, of course, I need to 
know the cadence I am riding at. Everyone has (this is scientifically 
proven, seriously) a preferred cadence, and a comfortable range around that 
cadence. There is a pretty wide range among people of their preferred 
cadence and range. So, I decided on my comfortable cadence and range, and 
now I measure gears (taking into account wheel size) in the speed I am 
going at my comfortable cadence. 

The notion of comfortable cadence range then can play a major role in 
determining how much spacing you want between gears. For example, my 
comfortable cadence is around 87 rpm (aside - I’ve gone to shorter cranks), 
and the range is 75 - 100. An ideal shift for me is one that takes me from 
the limits of that range back to the center, which is a 14% difference. 
(footnote: I measure differences as the natural log of the ratio, happy to 
explain why but I don’t think it’s important here.)

Alas, we are limited to 1-tooth differences, and sometimes 2-tooth 
differences. And while a 10-11 change is 9.5%, a 14-15 change is 6.9%. The 
evolution to smaller smallest cogs in back has significantly increased the 
challenge to building a set of cogs with consistent differences across the 
range. If you want a 14% change, you’re kind of stuck down at the small end 
of the cogs, choosing between 10% or 20%. Even starting with a 12 tooth cog 
helps considerably, as the 12-14 jump is 15.4%, which is very close to 
ideal. On the other hand, starting with a larger small cog means having to 
go to even larger large cogs to get a desired low gear, or widening the gap 
in front, or going to a triple. 

Alright, so there are essentially two approaches to using multiple 
chainrings to arrive at a desired range of gears with even steps: crossover 
and half-step. In a crossover system, you try for even, acceptable steps 
between cogs in back, and when you run out of gears in back you cross over 
to the other chainring. In a half-step system, you try for even steps that 
are twice the desired difference and the chainring difference half of that. 
So, you are making rough adjustments in back and fine adjustments up front. 
A variation on that is to add a third, small chainring, known as “half-step 
plus granny”, in which you have a bunch of evenly spaced gears and then a 
handful of wider-spaced gears down low..

The development of higher cog counts in back has made crossover setups the 
standard. However, as John Allen has pointed out, the accompanying 
development of more flexible chains has made half-step gearing potentially 
a better option. If you were to build an ideal half-step system, say 
starting from 11 teeth and using 18% increments, you’d go from 11 to 34 in 
7 cogs, 41 in 8, and 49 in 9. If you combined 

Re: [RBW] Re: [BOB] Re: Bump! ISO: 10-speed spacers. And question.

[Patrick Moore]

As a matter of fact, I've never used my Miche 10 sp cassettes with a 10 sp
chain but I suppose those must also work. (Since I built those Miche 10 sp
cassettes, I've used a chain "1 generation later" than the cassette because
web scuttlebutt says that this promotes crisper shifting. At least, I have
found no evidence to the contrary -- shifting is wonderful, as it is with
the same chain and the cassette made from 1.6 mm Shimano cogs and the same
2 mm spacers.)

On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 8:58 AM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> ...  At any rate, an 11 speed chain works fine on those 10 sp Miche cogs.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Eroica California

[Keith Weaver]

Bill,

I also have a brown Gran Premio! I especially like the Suntour symmetric
shifters. Univega was the brand sold in my childhood bike store, so when I
saw mine in a used bike shop, I had to have it. They'll always have a soft
spot in my heart. If I were to ride mine in the CA Eroica, I think I'd need
some lower gearing, maybe the Velo Orange 46-30 crankset.

Cheers,
Keith

On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 7:28 PM Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> I've got the bike for it, and I'm just waiting for the stars to align to
> do the ride.  My "Eroica Bike" is a time capsule 1983 Univega Gran Premio.
> I've got ~700 miles on it, and will not have any issue using it for an
> Eroica day.
>
>
> https://flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/49563967306/in/album-72157713199195553/
>
> BL in EC
>
> On Tuesday, April 2, 2024 at 9:41:21 AM UTC-7 chefd...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Curious if anyone on this forum is also a Vintage enthusiast and has
>> interest in the Eroica event that is run on the Central Coast of
>> California. I've ridden it a few times on my PX-10... its a great ride,
>> although the organization that runs the event has had its ups and downs
>> over the years. Currently, the website lists September 22, 2024 as the run
>> date, but the registration button leads to last year's sign-updoes
>> anyone have any better intel?
>
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> .
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Re: [RBW] Re: [BOB] Re: Bump! ISO: 10-speed spacers. And question.

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Ted. I reviewed Sheldon's chart and saw these measurements for 7
thru 10; where did you find the 11 sp measurements?

I'll be interested in you related post.

The 10 sp Miche cogs are odd. The Shimano 10 speeds measure 1.6 mm wide
across the cog, the Miche ones measure 1.6 mm at the teeth but ~1.8 mm or
so below tooth level; thus the 2 mm spacers, I guess. At any rate, an 11
speed chain works fine on those 10 sp Miche cogs.

Yes, someone please assemble a complete chart for at least Shimano
cassettes, freehub bodies, cogs, spaces, and chains.

On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 8:05 AM Ted Durant  wrote:

> FWIW, the center-center spacing for Shimano cogs is:
>
> 7sp 5.00
> 8sp 4.80
> 9sp 4.35
> 10sp 3.95
> 11sp Road 3.69
> 11sp MTB 3.90
>
> Sorry, I don’t have 12 and 13.
>
> Cog + spacer widths need to add to those numbers. Theoretically you can
> use thinner cogs than spec with wider spacers, but you would run into
> trouble with chain fit using thicker cogs with thinner spacers. If somebody
> finds or assembles a complete table of cog and spacer thickness spec’s,
> that would be a significant contribution to humankind.
>
> I’ll be posting on a related topic, soon.
>
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee WI USA
>
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> 
> .
>


-- 

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Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
---

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[RBW] FS: Nitto Billie bars

[eddietheflay]

Been installed but so damn close to perfect condition...a photo can't show 
the teeny tiny nicks. $110 shipped.

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[RBW] Re: FS: Nitto fillet brazed Faceplater quill stem, 31.8, 110mm, 225 quill length

[eddietheflay]

If you have smaller diameter bars, I can include shims to make it work.

On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 7:26:20 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> Been installed but really close to perfect. Maybe a couple of tiny 
> hairline marks but still looks like bike jewelry to me. Hard to find, good 
> to own.
>
> $130 net to me gets it shipped to you.
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/9C4QGw8VysEE3AVW9
>

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[RBW] FS: Nitto fillet brazed Faceplater quill stem, 31.8, 110mm, 225 quill length

[eddietheflay]

Been installed but really close to perfect. Maybe a couple of tiny hairline 
marks but still looks like bike jewelry to me. Hard to find, good to own.

$130 net to me gets it shipped to you.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9C4QGw8VysEE3AVW9

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Re: [RBW] Craigslist, etc 2024

[Ted Durant]

On Tuesday, April 2, 2024 at 12:59:04 PM UTC-5 Matthew Williams wrote:


Sam Hillborne F/F/HS/BB
51cm
1550
Livonia, MI
https://www.ebay.com/itm/176315208003

Oooh, it’s tempting to add a blue “Midwest Sam” to join my green “West 
Coast Sam” and silver “East Coast Sam”. Unfortunately I’ve maxed my 
basement bike storage and N+1 is no longer an option.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee WI USA 

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Re: [RBW] Re: [BOB] Re: Bump! ISO: 10-speed spacers. And question.

[Ted Durant]

FWIW, the center-center spacing for Shimano cogs is:

7sp 5.00
8sp 4.80
9sp 4.35
10sp 3.95
11sp Road 3.69
11sp MTB 3.90

Sorry, I don’t have 12 and 13. 

Cog + spacer widths need to add to those numbers. Theoretically you can use 
thinner cogs than spec with wider spacers, but you would run into trouble 
with chain fit using thicker cogs with thinner spacers. If somebody finds 
or assembles a complete table of cog and spacer thickness spec’s, that 
would be a significant contribution to humankind.

I’ll be posting on a related topic, soon.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee WI USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Long Chainstays - What Problem/Deficiency Do They Solve?

[Brian Turner]

hot dogs vs. corn dogsOn Apr 3, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Steve  wrote:How about "Spaghetti vs Macaroni" ?On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 6:21:28 AM UTC-4 Ryan Ogilvie wrote:What are long chain stays in this metaphor? :-)Sent from my mobile device. On Apr 2, 2024, at 11:26 PM, fiddl...@gmail.com  wrote:Ribeye vs Burger: both get the same job done in different ways…neither is a bad way to goOn Sunday, March 31, 2024 at 1:50:18 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ wrote:Enjoyed reading the thread "Anyone else not a fan of long chainstays?", especially Bill L's explanation of the RBW bike design philosophy.   Seems the prevailing thought is long stays are better forupright ridingsingle track type trails (vs a Rails to Trails type trail)I'll just note 2 'facts'1  The vast majority of RBW models (except the Roadeo type frame) use slack STA and HTA which may contribute to the ride effect when coupled with long stays.2.  In the beginning RBW addressed getting the bars higher and adopting a non-racer riding style (back at 45° with hands on hoods), which IMHO were solutions to actual problems.So What problem or current deficiency in bike design is Grant solving by using long chain staysJust to bring bikes to market that no one else is building??Or do they solve a real problem???John HawrylakWoodstown NJFWIW 2 of 3 of my frames have 44 to 45cm chain stays, and 1 has a 43cm chain stay.    It's hard to notice a ride difference.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Long Chainstays - What Problem/Deficiency Do They Solve?

[Steve]

How about "Spaghetti vs Macaroni" ?

On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 6:21:28 AM UTC-4 Ryan Ogilvie wrote:

> What are long chain stays in this metaphor? :-)
>
>
> Sent from my mobile device. 
>
> On Apr 2, 2024, at 11:26 PM, fiddl...@gmail.com  
> wrote:
>
> Ribeye vs Burger: both get the same job done in different ways…neither is 
> a bad way to go
>
>
> On Sunday, March 31, 2024 at 1:50:18 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ 
> wrote:
>
>> Enjoyed reading the thread "Anyone else not a fan of long chainstays?", 
>> especially Bill L's explanation of the RBW bike design philosophy.   Seems 
>> the prevailing thought is long stays are better for
>> upright riding
>> single track type trails (vs a Rails to Trails type trail)
>>
>> I'll just note 2 'facts'
>> 1  The vast majority of RBW models (except the Roadeo type frame) use 
>> slack STA and HTA which may contribute to the ride effect when coupled with 
>> long stays.
>> 2.  In the beginning RBW addressed getting the bars higher and adopting a 
>> non-racer riding style (back at 45° with hands on hoods), which IMHO were 
>> solutions to actual problems.
>>
>> *So What problem or current deficiency in bike design is Grant solving by 
>> using long chain stays*
>> Just to bring bikes to market that no one else is building??
>> Or do they solve a real problem???
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>>
>> FWIW 2 of 3 of my frames have 44 to 45cm chain stays, and 1 has a 43cm 
>> chain stay.It's hard to notice a ride difference.
>>
> -- 
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/e72ba372-a9e2-44cc-97d5-96b02e7e96e4n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Long Chainstays - What Problem/Deficiency Do They Solve?

[Steve]

How about "Chain of sausages vs Sausage patties" ?

On Wednesday, April 3, 2024 at 6:21:28 AM UTC-4 Ryan Ogilvie wrote:

> What are long chain stays in this metaphor? :-)
>
>
> Sent from my mobile device. 
>
> On Apr 2, 2024, at 11:26 PM, fiddl...@gmail.com  
> wrote:
>
> Ribeye vs Burger: both get the same job done in different ways…neither is 
> a bad way to go
>
>
> On Sunday, March 31, 2024 at 1:50:18 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ 
> wrote:
>
>> Enjoyed reading the thread "Anyone else not a fan of long chainstays?", 
>> especially Bill L's explanation of the RBW bike design philosophy.   Seems 
>> the prevailing thought is long stays are better for
>> upright riding
>> single track type trails (vs a Rails to Trails type trail)
>>
>> I'll just note 2 'facts'
>> 1  The vast majority of RBW models (except the Roadeo type frame) use 
>> slack STA and HTA which may contribute to the ride effect when coupled with 
>> long stays.
>> 2.  In the beginning RBW addressed getting the bars higher and adopting a 
>> non-racer riding style (back at 45° with hands on hoods), which IMHO were 
>> solutions to actual problems.
>>
>> *So What problem or current deficiency in bike design is Grant solving by 
>> using long chain stays*
>> Just to bring bikes to market that no one else is building??
>> Or do they solve a real problem???
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>>
>> FWIW 2 of 3 of my frames have 44 to 45cm chain stays, and 1 has a 43cm 
>> chain stay.It's hard to notice a ride difference.
>>
> -- 
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Long Chainstays - What Problem/Deficiency Do They Solve?

[Ryan Ogilvie]

What are long chain stays in this metaphor? :-)Sent from my mobile device. On Apr 2, 2024, at 11:26 PM, fiddl...@gmail.com  wrote:Ribeye vs Burger: both get the same job done in different ways…neither is a bad way to goOn Sunday, March 31, 2024 at 1:50:18 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ wrote:Enjoyed reading the thread "Anyone else not a fan of long chainstays?", especially Bill L's explanation of the RBW bike design philosophy.   Seems the prevailing thought is long stays are better forupright ridingsingle track type trails (vs a Rails to Trails type trail)I'll just note 2 'facts'1  The vast majority of RBW models (except the Roadeo type frame) use slack STA and HTA which may contribute to the ride effect when coupled with long stays.2.  In the beginning RBW addressed getting the bars higher and adopting a non-racer riding style (back at 45° with hands on hoods), which IMHO were solutions to actual problems.So What problem or current deficiency in bike design is Grant solving by using long chain staysJust to bring bikes to market that no one else is building??Or do they solve a real problem???John HawrylakWoodstown NJFWIW 2 of 3 of my frames have 44 to 45cm chain stays, and 1 has a 43cm chain stay.    It's hard to notice a ride difference.



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