[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
Charlie: The older ones with the bi-plane fork can sometimes fetch more, but I personally think the 1985 was the best year (before the chainstay mounted brake reared its ugly head). For a 1985 Stumpy (which WAS the first year with the unicrown S stamped lug fork) in good condition and original parts, I'd expect to see it sell on eBay for around $300 to $400 (the eBay market fluctuates from week to week, it's flaky). Personally I think they're worth EVERY cent of that and more, and can't understand why they don't fetch more. Then there are the occasional delusional eBay nutcases who think their 83 is worth $900... it's their perogative to overprice, but honestly they're dreamin. My 85 Stumpy (which I've since customized - http://tinyurl.com/3sfaqko) to be the way I like it is (honestly) as nice a ride as any bike in my stable, except for the Bomba (but it's darn close)... My honest take... KEEP IT... it's THAT good of a bike. The $300-$400 (or even $500) that you MIGHT get for it couldn't possibly come close to replacing it... Keep it, and make it into something special. Peace, BB On Jun 15, 9:35 pm, EricP ericpl...@aol.com wrote: Honestly, no idea. I think that's the lugged unicrown fork model. (Too lazy to look it up.) If it doesn't have a U brake fitting under the seatstays, it's worth more. But really have no idea on a price. Montclair BobbyB might know more. He's had more of those bikes through his hands. I'd want one because it's a bike I rode before the big hiatus. The few I've ridden since then are not great performing bikes, but it's the memory of what I used to have that I'd pay for. And that is only if I wanted it when one came along. Eric Platt St. Paul, MN On Jun 15, 12:48 pm, Charlie cromano...@cox.net wrote: Two posts in one day for me. This is to Eric. If hanging next to the Wilbury mixte referenced a few messages above, there was a red, lugged, 19 1/2 inch, 1985 Stumpjumper frame and fork, made by Toyo (I think) - one owner - purchased new by me in 1985 - what sort of premium might one expect? Charlie Personally might pay a premium for an old lugged Specialized Stumpjumper, while others would go meh. - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
I'd love to score a Bleriot, for completely shallow reasons: It's my favorite Riv name/graphics package. I don't know the story of them being pulled from the market, and didn't realize they disappeared quickly (I was in recumbent world the last three years). About the mythical Legolas: I was at Rivendell a few years ago, cash in hand, staring at one in my size. I was *this* close to buying...and bailed out. They only made 80!? Oh my heart.. On Jun 15, 4:06 am, islaysteve alkire...@verizon.net wrote: Leslie, No offense taken by me at all! I understand what you're saying about some people overpaying for nice-looking restored car, while more knowledgable folks know that there is an upper limit to reasonable prices for any given model. This may be similar to the pricing on the Ram we are discussing, but of course the final sale price will determine that (if we ever find out.) I'm also amazed by the high asking prices for some older bikes on CL. It may seem reasonable to the seller that if a $700 (when new) bike is like new, it should be worth $400 now. They don't realize that the technology has moved on so much in 10, 15 or 20 years, that their bike is pretty much obsolete to most buyers. I guess the fixed-gear/single-speed trend has been a boon to those selling older steel bikes. I'm just glad that I bought my Bleriot when I did, for what I paid. Steve On Jun 14, 9:45 pm, Leslie leslie.bri...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 14, 7:08 am, islaysteve alkire...@verizon.net wrote: In view of the other thread about the nice Rambo for sale on CList, I thought I'd start a general discussion of used Riv prices. Just because it's kind of interesting. Someone on the other thread implied that it's not reasonable to compare the asking price of a used frame to the price of a new frame, esp. if it's a different model. I disagree. Long ago I had a job processing claims. The principles apply, I argue. To use my own example, you can't buy a new Bleriot. If you want a new Riv frame that's close to a Bleriot in geometry and function, you buy a Sam. Back when they were sold, Bleriots cost $750 (such a deal!). Today new Sams cost $1100 (?) or $1500, and that is a whole other discussion in itself. In my size (small), they cost $1500. So when I paid more than the original cost for my pristine Bleriot frame/fork, was I foolish? I don't think so. Riv frames in my size on the used market are not available all that often. So the other part of this equation is depreciation: the word that insurance companies love and claimants hate. I think you have to agree that most things, Riv frames included, depreciate. If you'd rather have a new frame out of the box from Walnut Creek than a used frame from Joe on eBay, that's depreciation. If the used frame has some paint chipping around the dropouts, that's.you get the picture. We can argue about how much to depreciate a Riv frame, or anything else. I wouldn't depreciate it down to 25% after say 10 years, like some claims payers might. So to wrap this up, my point is that it's reasonable to look at the price of a comparable new frame (bike), decide what kind of depreciation to apply to the used bike in question, and go from there. And of course the buyers emotions and wants play into this a good bit. I would have rather had an orange Sam with Hillborne graphics than the blue Bleriot. But it just wasn't worth nearly double the price to me. Cheers, Steve I suppose I should reply here, as it might very well be me that was implying that it's not quite appropriate to do a direct price comparison between a discontinued used model and a new current model. And, I should go ahead and say, anything I say isn't meant to offend, is simply my perspective, YMMV. I will agree, if you want to have insurance replace a bike with a very comparable brand/model, then sure, you can insure it for a declared amount to make sure that if stolen, you could go and replace it (ie, replace a Rambouillet with a Roadeo). That would be a $1600 frame, being replaced with a $2000 frame. And, I love my Rambouillet, it's an awesome bike. I really would like to think that, it'd be reasonable to expect that an insurance company would replace it with a brand new Roadeo if anything ever happened to it. And if I had an Atlantis that was a year or two old, maybe it'd not be too unreasonable to argue with insurance that they could just buy a new one to replace it. But, realistically, as soon as you drive a car off a lot, it's a used car. A few years later, once a company has replaced it with a new model, if I went to sell it, I wouldn't expect to set its price directly compared to a new car, I have to look at the price for which used ones of its same year are selling, regardless of the new model being the one that's most like it. I had a Subaru,
Re: [RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
This is an interesting thread. One aspect not yet discussed concerns the economics of being an early adapter. For example, I bought a first-generation Atlantis when the frame was about $900. I rode it hard and was able to sell it later for about what I paid, not so much because the frame had appreciated but because a new frame had about doubled in price. I went on to buy a Bombadil when the pre-release price was $1400. The current price is now $2500. (This example is perhaps not as parallel because my 60 cm frame has the double tube whereas the current models have the diagonal tube). As others have pointed out, interest in the Quickbeam remains high, so one imagines that those who bought the SimpleOne at its introductory price will find that those frames hold their value well. David Sprunger Fargo, ND Bikes: http://www.cord.edu/faculty/sprunger/bikes/ On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Joe Bernard joerem...@gmail.com wrote: I'd love to score a Bleriot, for completely shallow reasons: It's my favorite Riv name/graphics package. I don't know the story of them being pulled from the market, and didn't realize they disappeared quickly (I was in recumbent world the last three years). About the mythical Legolas: I was at Rivendell a few years ago, cash in hand, staring at one in my size. I was *this* close to buying...and bailed out. They only made 80!? Oh my heart.. On Jun 15, 4:06 am, islaysteve alkire...@verizon.net wrote: Leslie, No offense taken by me at all! I understand what you're saying about some people overpaying for nice-looking restored car, while more knowledgable folks know that there is an upper limit to reasonable prices for any given model. This may be similar to the pricing on the Ram we are discussing, but of course the final sale price will determine that (if we ever find out.) I'm also amazed by the high asking prices for some older bikes on CL. It may seem reasonable to the seller that if a $700 (when new) bike is like new, it should be worth $400 now. They don't realize that the technology has moved on so much in 10, 15 or 20 years, that their bike is pretty much obsolete to most buyers. I guess the fixed-gear/single-speed trend has been a boon to those selling older steel bikes. I'm just glad that I bought my Bleriot when I did, for what I paid. Steve On Jun 14, 9:45 pm, Leslie leslie.bri...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 14, 7:08 am, islaysteve alkire...@verizon.net wrote: In view of the other thread about the nice Rambo for sale on CList, I thought I'd start a general discussion of used Riv prices. Just because it's kind of interesting. Someone on the other thread implied that it's not reasonable to compare the asking price of a used frame to the price of a new frame, esp. if it's a different model. I disagree. Long ago I had a job processing claims. The principles apply, I argue. To use my own example, you can't buy a new Bleriot. If you want a new Riv frame that's close to a Bleriot in geometry and function, you buy a Sam. Back when they were sold, Bleriots cost $750 (such a deal!). Today new Sams cost $1100 (?) or $1500, and that is a whole other discussion in itself. In my size (small), they cost $1500. So when I paid more than the original cost for my pristine Bleriot frame/fork, was I foolish? I don't think so. Riv frames in my size on the used market are not available all that often. So the other part of this equation is depreciation: the word that insurance companies love and claimants hate. I think you have to agree that most things, Riv frames included, depreciate. If you'd rather have a new frame out of the box from Walnut Creek than a used frame from Joe on eBay, that's depreciation. If the used frame has some paint chipping around the dropouts, that's.you get the picture. We can argue about how much to depreciate a Riv frame, or anything else. I wouldn't depreciate it down to 25% after say 10 years, like some claims payers might. So to wrap this up, my point is that it's reasonable to look at the price of a comparable new frame (bike), decide what kind of depreciation to apply to the used bike in question, and go from there. And of course the buyers emotions and wants play into this a good bit. I would have rather had an orange Sam with Hillborne graphics than the blue Bleriot. But it just wasn't worth nearly double the price to me. Cheers, Steve I suppose I should reply here, as it might very well be me that was implying that it's not quite appropriate to do a direct price comparison between a discontinued used model and a new current model. And, I should go ahead and say, anything I say isn't meant to offend, is simply my perspective, YMMV. I will agree, if you want to have insurance replace a bike with a very comparable brand/model,
Re: [RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
JimD, Any chance you might be willing to trade your raftered 61 cm Blériot for my 59 cm Blériot? I often think that mine is just a little too small for me. What a deal, too, as ,ine's worth $910 compared to the $750 you paid for yours! ;^) Serious about that, contact me off-list. Cheers, Brett -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/jsZlpjukZPcJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
Sorry, 59 is small/ish for me with a 91.5 pbh. Plus I do plan to keep it. I really do intend to re-configure the Bleriot. The dream is to outfit it to tour parts/maybe all of the Great Divide route. Then there are the true adventurers (or insert your own characterization) who race it. Which reminds me - they're at it again: http://tourdivide.org/leaderboard http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=d321513640565be93d686e15dd91527ftopic=2179.440 Cheers, JimD On Jun 16, 2011, at 7:26 AM, Brett Lindenbach wrote: JimD, Any chance you might be willing to trade your raftered 61 cm Blériot for my 59 cm Blériot? I often think that mine is just a little too small for me. What a deal, too, as ,ine's worth $910 compared to the $750 you paid for yours! ;^) Serious about that, contact me off-list. Cheers, Brett -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/jsZlpjukZPcJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 18:45 -0700, Leslie wrote: Maybe I'm too pessimistic. I usually think of myself as being overly optimistic, but, I really wouldn't see paying 'more' for a frame than what it originally cost. In which case, I hope you never get the urge to have a Herse or a Singer or even a Jack Taylor, because there is absolutely zero chance you would ever find one going for what one cost new. A Schwinn P15 Paramount in July 1971 cost $352. What is one worth now? What is a new XTR M900 crank set worth? Ten years ago, you could find one NOS for around $185. Last week, one was available on ebay for $500. I bought my Mafac RAID brakes for around $60, NOS around 6 years ago, when there was still a supply of them. These days, a NOS RAID brake set will cost you a couple of hundred dollars, if you can find one. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
Interesting topic indeed. I'm pretty new to the 'dell so I don't have much historical perspective or data to add. One idea, though - would it be any use to have the Group admin set up a database where we could list transactions in used Rivs? I know of other collector groups that do something similar... you can enter data as either buyer or seller, or as a 3rd party (ie, I saw this one sold on ebay...) as long it is clearly stated -Pete -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/oeTGWIN96eoJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
OK this cinches it. I'm keeping the 61 cm Bleriot frame that hangs from the rafters in my garage. the Bleriot's components went to outfit a Saluki. Who knew it would become a collectors item? Of course if the 'recession' carries on all bets are off. -JimD On Jun 14, 2011, at 11:10 AM, Brett Lindenbach wrote: I bought a 59 cm Blériot frame and fork in very good condition on ebay late last year, and paid $910. That was the market rate on that day, and I was almost outbid. I was glad to pay it too, as it is a great frameset. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/cFvyxU9mjO0J. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
I find this idea a litlte counter to the spirit of Rivendell in general as it seems like these bikes were always meant to be ridden and beat-up. If you really want to see the price of things you can get a sense of it from the archives, but the ranges that people have been throwing out are pretty accurate i think On Jun 15, 9:39 am, Peter Pesce petepe...@gmail.com wrote: Interesting topic indeed. I'm pretty new to the 'dell so I don't have much historical perspective or data to add. One idea, though - would it be any use to have the Group admin set up a database where we could list transactions in used Rivs? I know of other collector groups that do something similar... you can enter data as either buyer or seller, or as a 3rd party (ie, I saw this one sold on ebay...) as long it is clearly stated -Pete -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
On Jun 15, 7:17 am, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 18:45 -0700, Leslie wrote: Maybe I'm too pessimistic. I usually think of myself as being overly optimistic, but, I really wouldn't see paying 'more' for a frame than what it originally cost. In which case, I hope you never get the urge to have a Herse or a Singer or even a Jack Taylor, because there is absolutely zero chance you would ever find one going for what one cost new. A Schwinn P15 Paramount in July 1971 cost $352. What is one worth now? What is a new XTR M900 crank set worth? Ten years ago, you could find one NOS for around $185. Last week, one was available on ebay for $500. I bought my Mafac RAID brakes for around $60, NOS around 6 years ago, when there was still a supply of them. These days, a NOS RAID brake set will cost you a couple of hundred dollars, if you can find one. No, I have no urge to have any of those; however, it's not like you can watch Rene putting one together now, can you? At a certain point, yes, a collector value on turn the price decline around, and things will start to be worth more.It enters the 'antique' market, as would cars. At one point, old Mustangs were just an older car, and not worth a lot, but, now they are.That's what those bikes are, they're old enough to have a collectable value. Rivendell started in '94.They're not old enough yet.When my Rambouillet is has many decades under its belt, then maybe I might expect the price to go up, but, that's not why I bought a Riv I bought it to ride -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
I don't post much but do have some comments here. I was talking last week with Rivendell about the purchase of a Betty Foy or the possibility of a custom Hunqapillar type mixte. I currently ride a 48 cm Hunqa and have an original never built 52cm mixte hanging in the rafters. I ride very upright and would like a little higher handlebar position than the Hunqa provides - thus the discussion about a 58 cm Betty or a custom mixte with a high handlebar position. I now have my doubts that the 52 mixte would provide any higher handle bar position than the Hunqa. Anyway - my point - Keven said if I sold the mixte not to take less than to $2000 - and also offered $1600 on a trade toward a custom - which is what I paid for it several years ago. Charlie PS: The mixte is not for sale. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
You mean you have a new Glorius/ Wilbury hanging in your garage? Do you have any pics? These bikes seem to have just disappeared and attained an almost mythical status-- I knew a guy who knew a guy who once rode with a guy who had one. Cheers! cm On Jun 15, 10:31 am, Charlie cromano...@cox.net wrote: I don't post much but do have some comments here. I was talking last week with Rivendell about the purchase of a Betty Foy or the possibility of a custom Hunqapillar type mixte. I currently ride a 48 cm Hunqa and have an original never built 52cm mixte hanging in the rafters. I ride very upright and would like a little higher handlebar position than the Hunqa provides - thus the discussion about a 58 cm Betty or a custom mixte with a high handlebar position. I now have my doubts that the 52 mixte would provide any higher handle bar position than the Hunqa. Anyway - my point - Keven said if I sold the mixte not to take less than to $2000 - and also offered $1600 on a trade toward a custom - which is what I paid for it several years ago. Charlie PS: The mixte is not for sale. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
Maybe I'm being optimistic here (probably). But feel sorta like Rivendell owners are often more critical in their bike needs (in a good way). So are willing to pay a premium to get a specific bike. Not necessarily the vintage idea, which is a whole 'nother thing. But more towards the boutique end, yet still practical. Like a good Collings or Santa Cruz guitar, which holds value much better than a Martin or Gibson. On the udder hand (to milk it some more) not all bikes are the same to all folks. Personally might pay a premium for an old lugged Specialized Stumpjumper, while others would go meh. On the Rambouillet, it does nothing for me. However, I do like, nay love, the look of the AHH. My money would be for the latter. Eric Platt St. Paul, MN On Jun 15, 10:27 am, Leslie leslie.bri...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 15, 7:17 am, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 18:45 -0700, Leslie wrote: Maybe I'm too pessimistic. I usually think of myself as being overly optimistic, but, I really wouldn't see paying 'more' for a frame than what it originally cost. In which case, I hope you never get the urge to have a Herse or a Singer or even a Jack Taylor, because there is absolutely zero chance you would ever find one going for what one cost new. A Schwinn P15 Paramount in July 1971 cost $352. What is one worth now? What is a new XTR M900 crank set worth? Ten years ago, you could find one NOS for around $185. Last week, one was available on ebay for $500. I bought my Mafac RAID brakes for around $60, NOS around 6 years ago, when there was still a supply of them. These days, a NOS RAID brake set will cost you a couple of hundred dollars, if you can find one. No, I have no urge to have any of those; however, it's not like you can watch Rene putting one together now, can you? At a certain point, yes, a collector value on turn the price decline around, and things will start to be worth more. It enters the 'antique' market, as would cars. At one point, old Mustangs were just an older car, and not worth a lot, but, now they are. That's what those bikes are, they're old enough to have a collectable value. Rivendell started in '94. They're not old enough yet. When my Rambouillet is has many decades under its belt, then maybe I might expect the price to go up, but, that's not why I bought a Riv I bought it to ride- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
You're right on both accounts. The Blériot was a steal to begin with, and there is no good replacement anywhere near in value. Also, because it was pulled from the market sooner than expected, I think there was less fatigue. One might argue that the Ram market suffers from Ram-fatigue. And, the Blériot fit a niche that hasn't been replaced, namely the 650 market. Sure, Rivendell still makes 650Bs, but only in smaller frame sizes. I ride a 59 cm, and they just don't make them. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/-AzRv5ol1WoJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
$352 in 1971 means rougly $1890 today... On Jun 15, 6:17 am, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 18:45 -0700, Leslie wrote: Maybe I'm too pessimistic. I usually think of myself as being overly optimistic, but, I really wouldn't see paying 'more' for a frame than what it originally cost. In which case, I hope you never get the urge to have a Herse or a Singer or even a Jack Taylor, because there is absolutely zero chance you would ever find one going for what one cost new. A Schwinn P15 Paramount in July 1971 cost $352. What is one worth now? What is a new XTR M900 crank set worth? Ten years ago, you could find one NOS for around $185. Last week, one was available on ebay for $500. I bought my Mafac RAID brakes for around $60, NOS around 6 years ago, when there was still a supply of them. These days, a NOS RAID brake set will cost you a couple of hundred dollars, if you can find one. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
Leslie, No offense taken by me at all! I understand what you're saying about some people overpaying for nice-looking restored car, while more knowledgable folks know that there is an upper limit to reasonable prices for any given model. This may be similar to the pricing on the Ram we are discussing, but of course the final sale price will determine that (if we ever find out.) I'm also amazed by the high asking prices for some older bikes on CL. It may seem reasonable to the seller that if a $700 (when new) bike is like new, it should be worth $400 now. They don't realize that the technology has moved on so much in 10, 15 or 20 years, that their bike is pretty much obsolete to most buyers. I guess the fixed-gear/single-speed trend has been a boon to those selling older steel bikes. I'm just glad that I bought my Bleriot when I did, for what I paid. Steve On Jun 14, 9:45 pm, Leslie leslie.bri...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 14, 7:08 am, islaysteve alkire...@verizon.net wrote: In view of the other thread about the nice Rambo for sale on CList, I thought I'd start a general discussion of used Riv prices. Just because it's kind of interesting. Someone on the other thread implied that it's not reasonable to compare the asking price of a used frame to the price of a new frame, esp. if it's a different model. I disagree. Long ago I had a job processing claims. The principles apply, I argue. To use my own example, you can't buy a new Bleriot. If you want a new Riv frame that's close to a Bleriot in geometry and function, you buy a Sam. Back when they were sold, Bleriots cost $750 (such a deal!). Today new Sams cost $1100 (?) or $1500, and that is a whole other discussion in itself. In my size (small), they cost $1500. So when I paid more than the original cost for my pristine Bleriot frame/fork, was I foolish? I don't think so. Riv frames in my size on the used market are not available all that often. So the other part of this equation is depreciation: the word that insurance companies love and claimants hate. I think you have to agree that most things, Riv frames included, depreciate. If you'd rather have a new frame out of the box from Walnut Creek than a used frame from Joe on eBay, that's depreciation. If the used frame has some paint chipping around the dropouts, that's.you get the picture. We can argue about how much to depreciate a Riv frame, or anything else. I wouldn't depreciate it down to 25% after say 10 years, like some claims payers might. So to wrap this up, my point is that it's reasonable to look at the price of a comparable new frame (bike), decide what kind of depreciation to apply to the used bike in question, and go from there. And of course the buyers emotions and wants play into this a good bit. I would have rather had an orange Sam with Hillborne graphics than the blue Bleriot. But it just wasn't worth nearly double the price to me. Cheers, Steve I suppose I should reply here, as it might very well be me that was implying that it's not quite appropriate to do a direct price comparison between a discontinued used model and a new current model. And, I should go ahead and say, anything I say isn't meant to offend, is simply my perspective, YMMV. I will agree, if you want to have insurance replace a bike with a very comparable brand/model, then sure, you can insure it for a declared amount to make sure that if stolen, you could go and replace it (ie, replace a Rambouillet with a Roadeo). That would be a $1600 frame, being replaced with a $2000 frame. And, I love my Rambouillet, it's an awesome bike. I really would like to think that, it'd be reasonable to expect that an insurance company would replace it with a brand new Roadeo if anything ever happened to it. And if I had an Atlantis that was a year or two old, maybe it'd not be too unreasonable to argue with insurance that they could just buy a new one to replace it. But, realistically, as soon as you drive a car off a lot, it's a used car. A few years later, once a company has replaced it with a new model, if I went to sell it, I wouldn't expect to set its price directly compared to a new car, I have to look at the price for which used ones of its same year are selling, regardless of the new model being the one that's most like it. I had a Subaru, a month old, 2nd payment not-yet-made on it, and it was rear-ended. Shouldn't have been totaled, but, as it was a new model that had just came out, the parts weren't available to repair it, they were all going into making new ones, so insurance decided to total it out instead. And I couldn't even get them to do a replacement on it with another. It had less miles on it than some new cars that have been test-driven a lot, and they still wouldn't. There is a lot of truth in that old statement, tho', that it's worth what someone will pay for it. I deal with
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
Two posts in one day for me. This is to Eric. If hanging next to the Wilbury mixte referenced a few messages above, there was a red, lugged, 19 1/2 inch, 1985 Stumpjumper frame and fork, made by Toyo (I think) - one owner - purchased new by me in 1985 - what sort of premium might one expect? Charlie Personally might pay a premium for an old lugged Specialized Stumpjumper, while others would go meh. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
Interesting. I've noticed Rivs going for considerably less here than on CL or eBay, prolly because this group has a better sense of what they are really worth. Prices also seem to vary considerably based on location. There are a lot of Rivs in the bay area for obvious reasons, so there is a decent supply of (and demand for) used frame sets and complete bikes. Actually throughout the west coast, with a strong pocket in the NW as well. At least with my limited experience trying to source on CL, west coast sellers only deal locally, won't even reply to an earnest inquiry from out of state. Where I live on the east coast Riv bikes are considerably more exotic, and the used bike market reflects that. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/HkLmLqmFkG0J. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
Honestly, no idea. I think that's the lugged unicrown fork model. (Too lazy to look it up.) If it doesn't have a U brake fitting under the seatstays, it's worth more. But really have no idea on a price. Montclair BobbyB might know more. He's had more of those bikes through his hands. I'd want one because it's a bike I rode before the big hiatus. The few I've ridden since then are not great performing bikes, but it's the memory of what I used to have that I'd pay for. And that is only if I wanted it when one came along. Eric Platt St. Paul, MN On Jun 15, 12:48 pm, Charlie cromano...@cox.net wrote: Two posts in one day for me. This is to Eric. If hanging next to the Wilbury mixte referenced a few messages above, there was a red, lugged, 19 1/2 inch, 1985 Stumpjumper frame and fork, made by Toyo (I think) - one owner - purchased new by me in 1985 - what sort of premium might one expect? Charlie Personally might pay a premium for an old lugged Specialized Stumpjumper, while others would go meh. - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
This is a great topic! I hate when people say it, but anything is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. When you have something that was mass-produced all of those individual transactions help form a market value. In some cases things can actually appreciate in value if the cost of a replacement has gone up and demand is high. I think your Bleriot is a great example. I know that I wouldn't sell a new Bleriot for $750 today if I had one in some magical basement. Rolex watches are a good example of used items appreciating in value. In the Ram case above, I dont think that it is so much that the price is too high compared to the new comparable models, but too high according to the value the market has established. If research vintage cars, you often find that people put way more into restoring a car than they could ever hope to get back selling it-- putting $15,000 into a VW Beetle that they would be lucky to get $5,000. No matter how nice, it is still a Beetle and people will only pay so much. I think that is what the Ram owner is facing-- yes it is a very very nice bike, but it is still a Ram. Cheers! cm -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
It seems that only the Bleriot is worth more than original retail in the resale market. Single top tube Hillbornes seem to be worth about $700-$800 on the resale market. Atlantis and Hilsens and Salukis seem to go for $1200-$1400. Bombadils do not hold their value well at all, from what I've seen. Maybe $1000-$1200. I'd be interested to see what a Wilbury or Glorius would go for, since they seem to come up VERY rarely. Rambouillets seem to go in the $800-$1000 range. Quickbeams can pull very close to their retail price. On Jun 14, 11:10 am, Brett Lindenbach brett.lindenb...@gmail.com wrote: I bought a 59 cm Blériot frame and fork in very good condition on ebay late last year, and paid $910. That was the market rate on that day, and I was almost outbid. I was glad to pay it too, as it is a great frameset. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
Curious what price a Legolas would bring... I don't recall ever seeing one for sale. On Jun 14, 2:17 pm, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: It seems that only the Bleriot is worth more than original retail in the resale market. Single top tube Hillbornes seem to be worth about $700-$800 on the resale market. Atlantis and Hilsens and Salukis seem to go for $1200-$1400. Bombadils do not hold their value well at all, from what I've seen. Maybe $1000-$1200. I'd be interested to see what a Wilbury or Glorius would go for, since they seem to come up VERY rarely. Rambouillets seem to go in the $800-$1000 range. Quickbeams can pull very close to their retail price. On Jun 14, 11:10 am, Brett Lindenbach brett.lindenb...@gmail.com wrote: I bought a 59 cm Blériot frame and fork in very good condition on ebay late last year, and paid $910. That was the market rate on that day, and I was almost outbid. I was glad to pay it too, as it is a great frameset. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
Keven at RBW sold his last year. It had a chainstay replaced and was repainted by Joe Bell. IIRC, it sold for about 75% of retail. There were only about 80 Leg's made and I think I've only seen one other for sale. Mine's a keeper for sure. jim m wc ca On Jun 14, 11:30 am, stevep33 steve...@gmail.com wrote: Curious what price a Legolas would bring... I don't recall ever seeing one for sale. On Jun 14, 2:17 pm, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: It seems that only the Bleriot is worth more than original retail in the resale market. Single top tube Hillbornes seem to be worth about $700-$800 on the resale market. Atlantis and Hilsens and Salukis seem to go for $1200-$1400. Bombadils do not hold their value well at all, from what I've seen. Maybe $1000-$1200. I'd be interested to see what a Wilbury or Glorius would go for, since they seem to come up VERY rarely. Rambouillets seem to go in the $800-$1000 range. Quickbeams can pull very close to their retail price. On Jun 14, 11:10 am, Brett Lindenbach brett.lindenb...@gmail.com wrote: I bought a 59 cm Blériot frame and fork in very good condition on ebay late last year, and paid $910. That was the market rate on that day, and I was almost outbid. I was glad to pay it too, as it is a great frameset. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
Since we're not arguing how much an insurance claim should pay... and I know I don't understand all the nuances about how the replacement value clause is applied, I'd argue that the ultimate price any bike/frame would command would be driven by market demand, and not by how much it went for when it was manufactured/sold as new. In the case of Rivendell bikes, my position would be that if I absolutely want that bike/frame for whatever reason, I'd be willing to pay more for them. If I just consider them older/used, then I'd expect to pay less for them than a brand new equivalent I'd buy from Rivendell. An analogy, although perhaps not the best one, would be that as soon as production was stopped on a given model, just like a photographer destroying the negative of a given picture (Ansel Adams did this), the price for existing ones could actually go up as they are now potential collector's items. Should an original parallel top tube Bombadil command a higher, equal or lower price than a new diagonal tube Bombadil? It all depends on what you're after. René -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
On Jun 14, 2:17 pm, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: Bombadils do not hold their value well at all, from what I've seen. Maybe $1000-$1200. I'd be interested to see Have many Bombadils come up for sale?I think I've only seen one, and it was a very small size. I don't think many people have them, and those that do seem to love them too much to sell. On Jun 14, 7:08 am, islaysteve alkire...@verizon.net wrote: In view of the other thread about the nice Rambo for sale on CList, I thought I'd start a general discussion of used Riv prices. Just because it's kind of interesting. It seems perfectly logical to me to compare a frame that Riv doesn't sell anymore to one that they do sell, that is made to the same standards. Especially if that no-longer-made frame is new.You can't go back in time and order a Rambouillet from Rivendell at the original price, just as you can't buy a new AHH for $1500, which is what they retailed for when they came out.Inflation happens. Bank bailouts, war... what you gonna do. Also, in my experience, nice stuff appreciates in value over time, because nice stuff is hard to come by- 'nice' having a completely different meaning than 'expensive', though it often is expensive. -Matt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
Have many Bombadils come up for sale? Not a whole lot but I've seen a few. The small one you are thinking of maybe tilts my perception of value. I have a parallel tube 56cm Bomba, bought from Riv for $2000, and I do love it and will keep it. If I was ever forced financially to do a big liquidation, and decided to sell the Bomba, I'd anticipate taking a major hit. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Maybe the diago-bomba for $2500 will make mine really desireable! On Jun 14, 1:30 pm, newenglandbike matthiasbe...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 14, 2:17 pm, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: Bombadils do not hold their value well at all, from what I've seen. Maybe $1000-$1200. I'd be interested to see Have many Bombadils come up for sale? I think I've only seen one, and it was a very small size. I don't think many people have them, and those that do seem to love them too much to sell. On Jun 14, 7:08 am, islaysteve alkire...@verizon.net wrote: In view of the other thread about the nice Rambo for sale on CList, I thought I'd start a general discussion of used Riv prices. Just because it's kind of interesting. It seems perfectly logical to me to compare a frame that Riv doesn't sell anymore to one that they do sell, that is made to the same standards. Especially if that no-longer-made frame is new. You can't go back in time and order a Rambouillet from Rivendell at the original price, just as you can't buy a new AHH for $1500, which is what they retailed for when they came out. Inflation happens. Bank bailouts, war... what you gonna do. Also, in my experience, nice stuff appreciates in value over time, because nice stuff is hard to come by- 'nice' having a completely different meaning than 'expensive', though it often is expensive. -Matt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
On Jun 14, 7:08 am, islaysteve alkire...@verizon.net wrote: In view of the other thread about the nice Rambo for sale on CList, I thought I'd start a general discussion of used Riv prices. Just because it's kind of interesting. Someone on the other thread implied that it's not reasonable to compare the asking price of a used frame to the price of a new frame, esp. if it's a different model. I disagree. Long ago I had a job processing claims. The principles apply, I argue. To use my own example, you can't buy a new Bleriot. If you want a new Riv frame that's close to a Bleriot in geometry and function, you buy a Sam. Back when they were sold, Bleriots cost $750 (such a deal!). Today new Sams cost $1100 (?) or $1500, and that is a whole other discussion in itself. In my size (small), they cost $1500. So when I paid more than the original cost for my pristine Bleriot frame/fork, was I foolish? I don't think so. Riv frames in my size on the used market are not available all that often. So the other part of this equation is depreciation: the word that insurance companies love and claimants hate. I think you have to agree that most things, Riv frames included, depreciate. If you'd rather have a new frame out of the box from Walnut Creek than a used frame from Joe on eBay, that's depreciation. If the used frame has some paint chipping around the dropouts, that's.you get the picture. We can argue about how much to depreciate a Riv frame, or anything else. I wouldn't depreciate it down to 25% after say 10 years, like some claims payers might. So to wrap this up, my point is that it's reasonable to look at the price of a comparable new frame (bike), decide what kind of depreciation to apply to the used bike in question, and go from there. And of course the buyers emotions and wants play into this a good bit. I would have rather had an orange Sam with Hillborne graphics than the blue Bleriot. But it just wasn't worth nearly double the price to me. Cheers, Steve I suppose I should reply here, as it might very well be me that was implying that it's not quite appropriate to do a direct price comparison between a discontinued used model and a new current model. And, I should go ahead and say, anything I say isn't meant to offend, is simply my perspective, YMMV. I will agree, if you want to have insurance replace a bike with a very comparable brand/model, then sure, you can insure it for a declared amount to make sure that if stolen, you could go and replace it (ie, replace a Rambouillet with a Roadeo). That would be a $1600 frame, being replaced with a $2000 frame. And, I love my Rambouillet, it's an awesome bike. I really would like to think that, it'd be reasonable to expect that an insurance company would replace it with a brand new Roadeo if anything ever happened to it. And if I had an Atlantis that was a year or two old, maybe it'd not be too unreasonable to argue with insurance that they could just buy a new one to replace it. But, realistically, as soon as you drive a car off a lot, it's a used car. A few years later, once a company has replaced it with a new model, if I went to sell it, I wouldn't expect to set its price directly compared to a new car, I have to look at the price for which used ones of its same year are selling, regardless of the new model being the one that's most like it. I had a Subaru, a month old, 2nd payment not-yet-made on it, and it was rear-ended. Shouldn't have been totaled, but, as it was a new model that had just came out, the parts weren't available to repair it, they were all going into making new ones, so insurance decided to total it out instead. And I couldn't even get them to do a replacement on it with another. It had less miles on it than some new cars that have been test-driven a lot, and they still wouldn't. There is a lot of truth in that old statement, tho', that it's worth what someone will pay for it. I deal with old Land Rovers (have a '72 and a '60), and all the time, see people pricing them ridiculously high, thinking they're overly collectable. (Orvis had a nice 'restoration' done that was recently priced at $80k). And, often, someone with one to sell gets lucky: someone with disposable income sees one, catches a fancy, and can drop a lot of money on one. But the long and short of it is, it's an old Rover, even if nicely done, even if like new, shouldn't really ever go for more than $20k, and really, $10k is high for one in even pretty good daily driver condition. But, if someone's willing to $30k for one, who am I to say that it 'shouldn't' sell for that? Bikes aren't cars. And, I understand that, perhaps, someone is willing to pay a premium because it's got a Joe Bell paintjob, because it's a great paint. But for me, if I was buying a used bike, the fact it has a JB paint job or not wouldn't influence me to want to offer more; IMO, that's something that was worth more to the
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
Here's some data from my buying and selling Rivs if anyone's interested: (1) new Bleriot f/f at bought at retail, think I sold it for $500; (2) used but virtually new Saluki f/f: $1,200; (3) used but great condition Rambouillet f/f: $800; (4) used Quickbeam: I think I sold the bike for $900 or so; (5) used but great condition Bleriot: I think I bought and sold the f/f for $600 or so. There's also a lot of community within the Riv marketplace so I think buyers and sellers generally try to treat one another fairly. Ryan On Jun 14, 4:08 am, islaysteve alkire...@verizon.net wrote: In view of the other thread about the nice Rambo for sale on CList, I thought I'd start a general discussion of used Riv prices. Just because it's kind of interesting. Someone on the other thread implied that it's not reasonable to compare the asking price of a used frame to the price of a new frame, esp. if it's a different model. I disagree. Long ago I had a job processing claims. The principles apply, I argue. To use my own example, you can't buy a new Bleriot. If you want a new Riv frame that's close to a Bleriot in geometry and function, you buy a Sam. Back when they were sold, Bleriots cost $750 (such a deal!). Today new Sams cost $1100 (?) or $1500, and that is a whole other discussion in itself. In my size (small), they cost $1500. So when I paid more than the original cost for my pristine Bleriot frame/fork, was I foolish? I don't think so. Riv frames in my size on the used market are not available all that often. So the other part of this equation is depreciation: the word that insurance companies love and claimants hate. I think you have to agree that most things, Riv frames included, depreciate. If you'd rather have a new frame out of the box from Walnut Creek than a used frame from Joe on eBay, that's depreciation. If the used frame has some paint chipping around the dropouts, that's.you get the picture. We can argue about how much to depreciate a Riv frame, or anything else. I wouldn't depreciate it down to 25% after say 10 years, like some claims payers might. So to wrap this up, my point is that it's reasonable to look at the price of a comparable new frame (bike), decide what kind of depreciation to apply to the used bike in question, and go from there. And of course the buyers emotions and wants play into this a good bit. I would have rather had an orange Sam with Hillborne graphics than the blue Bleriot. But it just wasn't worth nearly double the price to me. Cheers, Steve -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
Rene, I agree with all you said. You said that value COULD go up when production stopped. Maybe, but it depends on the desirability of the frame in the first place. And also perhaps in the number produced. The Rivendell name certainly provides a hedge against depreciation, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it confers automatic collector's status. IMHO. Steve On Jun 14, 4:22 pm, Rene Sterental orthie...@gmail.com wrote: Since we're not arguing how much an insurance claim should pay... and I know I don't understand all the nuances about how the replacement value clause is applied, I'd argue that the ultimate price any bike/frame would command would be driven by market demand, and not by how much it went for when it was manufactured/sold as new. In the case of Rivendell bikes, my position would be that if I absolutely want that bike/frame for whatever reason, I'd be willing to pay more for them. If I just consider them older/used, then I'd expect to pay less for them than a brand new equivalent I'd buy from Rivendell. An analogy, although perhaps not the best one, would be that as soon as production was stopped on a given model, just like a photographer destroying the negative of a given picture (Ansel Adams did this), the price for existing ones could actually go up as they are now potential collector's items. Should an original parallel top tube Bombadil command a higher, equal or lower price than a new diagonal tube Bombadil? It all depends on what you're after. René -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
If William's statement is true, and I imagine that it is, it's mainly because Bleriots had such a low price to begin with AND that the pricing on its replacement has taken such a jump. It's too bad that RBW couldn't have maintained the Bleriot and its pricing for longer. (We've all read GPs reasons for pulling it, I'm sure.) On Jun 14, 2:17 pm, William tapebu...@gmail.com wrote: It seems that only the Bleriot is worth more than original retail in the resale market. Single top tube Hillbornes seem to be worth about $700-$800 on the resale market. Atlantis and Hilsens and Salukis seem to go for $1200-$1400. Bombadils do not hold their value well at all, from what I've seen. Maybe $1000-$1200. I'd be interested to see what a Wilbury or Glorius would go for, since they seem to come up VERY rarely. Rambouillets seem to go in the $800-$1000 range. Quickbeams can pull very close to their retail price. On Jun 14, 11:10 am, Brett Lindenbach brett.lindenb...@gmail.com wrote: I bought a 59 cm Blériot frame and fork in very good condition on ebay late last year, and paid $910. That was the market rate on that day, and I was almost outbid. I was glad to pay it too, as it is a great frameset.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
On Jun 14, 4:08 am, islaysteve alkire...@verizon.net wrote: In view of the other thread about the nice Rambo for sale on CList, I thought I'd start a general discussion of used Riv prices. Just because it's kind of interesting. Someone on the other thread implied that it's not reasonable to compare the asking price of a used frame to the price of a new frame, esp. if it's a different model. I disagree. Long ago I had a job processing claims. The principles apply, I argue. To use my own example, you can't buy a new Bleriot. If you want a new Riv frame that's close to a Bleriot in geometry and function, you buy a Sam. Back when they were sold, Bleriots cost $750 (such a deal!). Today new Sams cost $1100 (?) or $1500, and that is a whole other discussion in itself. In my size (small), they cost $1500. So when I paid more than the original cost for my pristine Bleriot frame/fork, was I foolish? I don't think so. Riv frames in my size on the used market are not available all that often. So the other part of this equation is depreciation: the word that insurance companies love and claimants hate. I think you have to agree that most things, Riv frames included, depreciate. If you'd rather have a new frame out of the box from Walnut Creek than a used frame from Joe on eBay, that's depreciation. If the used frame has some paint chipping around the dropouts, that's.you get the picture. We can argue about how much to depreciate a Riv frame, or anything else. I wouldn't depreciate it down to 25% after say 10 years, like some claims payers might. So to wrap this up, my point is that it's reasonable to look at the price of a comparable new frame (bike), decide what kind of depreciation to apply to the used bike in question, and go from there. And of course the buyers emotions and wants play into this a good bit. I would have rather had an orange Sam with Hillborne graphics than the blue Bleriot. But it just wasn't worth nearly double the price to me. Cheers, Steve This is interesting. On SFCL, there were like 5 Riv bikes/framesets for sale a couple of weeks ago. The prices varied from about $1300 for a blierot bike to over $3k for custom Riv. Today, there is only one listed a custom Riv complete bike (Curt built) for $1350: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bik/2436837304.html Seems like a great deal, if you fit it! Good Luck! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
I bought a 59 cm Blériot frame and fork in very good condition on ebay late last year, and paid $910. That was the market rate on that day, and I was almost outbid. I was glad to pay it too, as it is a great frameset. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/cFvyxU9mjO0J. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Market Prices for Riv Frames
I know... Wouldn't it be nice if they were automatic collector's items? I really meant that if there was a high demand at a given point in time, the price would go up. Reality doesn't quite seem to support that... yet! Rene Sent from my iPhone 4 On Jun 14, 2011, at 9:39 PM, islaysteve alkire...@verizon.net wrote: Rene, I agree with all you said. You said that value COULD go up when production stopped. Maybe, but it depends on the desirability of the frame in the first place. And also perhaps in the number produced. The Rivendell name certainly provides a hedge against depreciation, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it confers automatic collector's status. IMHO. Steve On Jun 14, 4:22 pm, Rene Sterental orthie...@gmail.com wrote: Since we're not arguing how much an insurance claim should pay... and I know I don't understand all the nuances about how the replacement value clause is applied, I'd argue that the ultimate price any bike/frame would command would be driven by market demand, and not by how much it went for when it was manufactured/sold as new. In the case of Rivendell bikes, my position would be that if I absolutely want that bike/frame for whatever reason, I'd be willing to pay more for them. If I just consider them older/used, then I'd expect to pay less for them than a brand new equivalent I'd buy from Rivendell. An analogy, although perhaps not the best one, would be that as soon as production was stopped on a given model, just like a photographer destroying the negative of a given picture (Ansel Adams did this), the price for existing ones could actually go up as they are now potential collector's items. Should an original parallel top tube Bombadil command a higher, equal or lower price than a new diagonal tube Bombadil? It all depends on what you're after. René -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
