[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Lester Lammers]

In summary, there is a seat for every butt but butts are different.

On Wednesday, May 8, 2019 at 7:53:07 PM UTC-4, Tim Bantham wrote:
>
> In referring back to the original post I too had a similar dilemma. I ride 
> a Sam with an Albatross and a Appaloosa with Billie's. I had a B-17 on 
> both. I have made a choice to not use animal products so I decided to sell 
> the leather Brooks. I since tried replacing them with every variation of 
> the Cambium series in the carved variety but just did not agree with any of 
> them. For me the takeaway is this. Nobody other than you can decide which 
> saddle is right for you. The only way to know is to try a variety of 
> choices until you find one that works with you anatomy. I would suggest 
> focusing on saddle shape as a primary factor. If you are looking for 
> choices try to find some with different shapes. At the advice of my friend 
> James @Analog cycles I settled on a WTB SST that they stopped making the 
> mid 90's. Luckily for me they made these by the gazillions so there are a 
> ton to choose from hanging around on eBay. I wouldn't have expected this 
> saddle to be "the one" but it goes to show you that you have to try a 
> variety before finding what works for YOU. Good luck in your search.  
>
> On Wednesday, May 8, 2019 at 1:31:11 PM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> Internet incredulity notwithstanding, if your new Brooks saddle hurts, 
>> you either have the wrong saddle or have it in the wrong position.  
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Chris Birkenmaier]

I think we can all agree that everyone is different and therefore saddles 
vary as to suitability.  I have  B17s and B68s on my various bikes and all 
are set up with alt bars and pretty upright riding position.  I'm perfectly 
fine with the B17 in that usage..  For the most part I don't have that 
painful period for breaking in unless I go longer miles on an outing.  Also 
agreed - for me - the Cambium is too rounded and makes for a very 
uncomfortable saddle.  I also enjoy the Berthoud Mente and the newer 
Albruis which both have the flat back portion.  For my folders I use the 
WTB Sports Comfort saddle and have had good results.

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 1:16:30 PM UTC-4, Sean B. wrote:
>
> Hey Bunch!
>
> So I've recently set up my new MIT AHH with the albatross bars and the B17 
> special. I've only ridden it about half a dozen times (approx 50-60 miles). 
> I know there's to be some breaking in for the Brooks. But I'm wondering if 
> the B17 was the wrong choice with the upright Albatross bars. My ride this 
> morning has my tailbone quite sore. I haven't ridden much since last summer 
> and it could be due to shifting my weight since my sitbones were sore from 
> a long ride on Saturday. 
>
> Does anyone else ride with this same setup? Should I wait and see how it 
> breaks in or try another saddle like the Selle Anatomica X1?
>
> Any advice would be appreciated. 
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Tim Bantham]

In referring back to the original post I too had a similar dilemma. I ride 
a Sam with an Albatross and a Appaloosa with Billie's. I had a B-17 on 
both. I have made a choice to not use animal products so I decided to sell 
the leather Brooks. I since tried replacing them with every variation of 
the Cambium series in the carved variety but just did not agree with any of 
them. For me the takeaway is this. Nobody other than you can decide which 
saddle is right for you. The only way to know is to try a variety of 
choices until you find one that works with you anatomy. I would suggest 
focusing on saddle shape as a primary factor. If you are looking for 
choices try to find some with different shapes. At the advice of my friend 
James @Analog cycles I settled on a WTB SST that they stopped making the 
mid 90's. Luckily for me they made these by the gazillions so there are a 
ton to choose from hanging around on eBay. I wouldn't have expected this 
saddle to be "the one" but it goes to show you that you have to try a 
variety before finding what works for YOU. Good luck in your search.  

On Wednesday, May 8, 2019 at 1:31:11 PM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Internet incredulity notwithstanding, if your new Brooks saddle hurts, you 
> either have the wrong saddle or have it in the wrong position.  
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Ron Mc]

Internet incredulity notwithstanding, if your new Brooks saddle hurts, you 
either have the wrong saddle or have it in the wrong position.  

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Lester Lammers]

I had issues with a Berthoud Aspin on my MIT Atlantis with Billie bars. I 
got a Brooks Cambium C-19 carved. Problem solved.

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 3:01:51 PM UTC-4, Kevin Lindsey wrote:
>
> At the risk of sparking disagreement, I think the problem lies with the 
> B17 saddle which, in my experience, generally doesn’t support a comfortable 
> upright riding posture.  It flares up in back which seems designed to 
> accommodate a forward-leaning torso, not one that’s sitting more nearly 
> vertical.  It’s why so many of us have had to raise the noses of our B17s: 
> to compensate for the fact that the back of the saddle slopes upward just 
> at the point where the width of the saddle matches our sit bones.  It’s 
> also, I think, why so many of us complain of constantly sliding forward on 
> our Brooks seats. 
> I solved this problem by gradually dumping all my Brooks saddles and 
> replacing them with Rivet Imogenes, which are flat, relatively wide, 
> extremely well made, and beautiful, to boot.   
> Kevin Lindsey 
> Alexandria, VA 
> USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Patrick Moore]

FWIW, long ago when I was still experimenting with Brookses, I found the
B17 N more comfortable than the B17 regular; this for drop bars 3" and more
below saddle -- the regular 17 was too wide for me and the skirts chafed.
The Pro was even nicer feeling.

The Flyer, B17 on springs, was fine on a slightly more upright drop-barred
mtb, but I couldn't get the springs to workd.



On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 9:25 AM tc  wrote:

> Agreed, Eric.
>
> I would also assert that folks who think the B17 is too hard or
> uncomfortable -- *after *confirming they have it adjusted/placed
> correctly -- try the B17 *Imperial*.  The cutout does make a difference,
> but it still quite supportive.
>
> I have also tried the C19 carved.  I like the B17's flatter shape better.
> The C19 is more rounded and basically has a lot of extra width that doesn't
> offer support under the sit bones.
>
> Tom
>
> On Wednesday, May 8, 2019 at 10:29:55 AM UTC-4, Eric Norris wrote:
>>
>> Huh? Let’s agree that not all butts are the same. I have B17s in almost
>> all my bikes, which are almost entirely drop bar.
>>
>> Personally, I find the Brooks Professional and other narrower Brooks
>> variants to be *too* narrow. But that’s just me. Your pelvis may vary.
>>
>> –Eric N
>>
>>
>> > On May 8, 2019, at 6:56 AM, Ron Mc  wrote:
>> >
>> > The B-17 is too wide for a drop-bar road bike
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[tc]

Agreed, Eric. 

I would also assert that folks who think the B17 is too hard or 
uncomfortable -- *after *confirming they have it adjusted/placed correctly 
-- try the B17 *Imperial*.  The cutout does make a difference, but it still 
quite supportive. 

I have also tried the C19 carved.  I like the B17's flatter shape better.  
The C19 is more rounded and basically has a lot of extra width that doesn't 
offer support under the sit bones.

Tom 

On Wednesday, May 8, 2019 at 10:29:55 AM UTC-4, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Huh? Let’s agree that not all butts are the same. I have B17s in almost 
> all my bikes, which are almost entirely drop bar. 
>
> Personally, I find the Brooks Professional and other narrower Brooks 
> variants to be *too* narrow. But that’s just me. Your pelvis may vary. 
>
> –Eric N 
>
>
> > On May 8, 2019, at 6:56 AM, Ron Mc > 
> wrote: 
> > 
> > The B-17 is too wide for a drop-bar road bike 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

['Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Huh? Let’s agree that not all butts are the same. I have B17s in almost all my 
bikes, which are almost entirely drop bar. 

Personally, I find the Brooks Professional and other narrower Brooks variants 
to be *too* narrow. But that’s just me. Your pelvis may vary. 

–Eric N


> On May 8, 2019, at 6:56 AM, Ron Mc  wrote:
> 
> The B-17 is too wide for a drop-bar road bike

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Ron Mc]

Breaking-in Brooks saddles is an internet myth resulting from 
misapplication and improper adjustment.  Leather stretch is the 
life-limiting mechanism for Brooks saddles, and anything you do to 
accelerate it is simply shortening the life of the saddle.  
The B-17 is too wide for a drop-bar road bike, and a brand-new B-15 is the 
most invisible saddle I've ever ridden in that application.  B-17 fits me 
perfectly on 2 semi-upright bikes.  
If you haven't gone through different positions on the saddle nose, that's 
the place to start.  
Otherwise, you probably need the B-67 if B-17 isn't working for you.  

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Pancake]

Reading this thread makes me remember all that led up to my current setup, 
most of the same steps and problems. *Unlike *you (I suspect) I'm quite 
heavy (6'0" 260 lbs, though I started riding closer to 290). *Like* you I 
tried different seats and seatposts for my dropbar Sam and Bosco bar 
Cheviot:

Saddles:

   - Brooks B67 --> modified to add a cutout and shoe laces between the 
   sides to make an imitation "imperial" 
   - Brooks Flyer Imperial ... essentially a sprung version of my next 
   saddle the C19
   - Ergon SFC3-L Gel 
   

   - Brooks C19 
   - Sella Anatomica H2

Seatposts:

   - Nitto S-65 23mm setback
   - Velo Orange Grand Cru Long Setback MKII: 30.2mm setback 
   

   - Nitto S-84 37mm setback


I ended up needing some extra setback while on the Sam, but I'd always used 
all the setback I could so when I installed the seat on the S84 it was 
actually *too far back*. Never had the problem before, figured the tilt was 
off as it was painful in the front contact point (when I didn't have enough 
setback it was painful on the rear contact points / sit bones). Now with 
the C19 or the Flyer (nearly the exact same width) positions in the middle 
of hte seat rails I'm *very* comfy. Until I moved it forward a bit (rather 
than using all the setback the rails and S84 would allow) I was worried I'd 
never get it right. 

Based on my own mistakes, I'd suggest going back to the start and working 
through the usual steps of fitting the seat height, seat position 
forward/back, bars and seat level:

   1. Correct PBH measurement and seat height? Check again.
   2. Is your knee over the pedal (KOPS *is *flawed but an okay start point 
   ) axle at 3:00 position? It's a 
   rough estimate of how far forward/back your seat should be, rarely ideal 
   but often close. Finally having enough setback available but using too much 
   of it was where I went wrong myself.
   3. Positioning the bars where you want them and assuming your stem 
   length is about right, adjust the saddle level to match the bars for 
   comfort. I've found that to mean pointing almost at the stem clamp: if the 
   bars are above the seat, tilt up a little but not quite pointing at the 
   stem clamp. If the bars are below the seat, tilt the seat to about level, 
   maybe slightly downward in front ... not a common Riv position though.
   4. Still feels wrong? Different stem length, different bar width, 
   different crank arm length, build up your core/glutes, acupuncture ... at 
   that point consult a professional for a fit?

Good luck on the fit adventure, it's worth it when you get dialed in. All 
advise taking with large rocks of salt please. 
Abe

On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 10:49:14 AM UTC-7, masmojo wrote:
>
> It's a delicate dance; regarding the fore/aft adjustment of the saddle, I 
> wouldn't monkey with it too much, your knees should be properly positioned 
> in relation to the pedals/spindles and that's it. With that set you can 
> analyze handlebar position. I didn't see what size frame you are messing 
> with, but on my 53 Toyo Atlantis & medium Clementine I run 100mm Technomic 
> stems. So 110mm doesn't sound surprising. 
> Yes, the Brooks is going to take considerable breaking in, but should work 
> fine assuming you don't have a very broad frame or are extremely upright, 
> although I run B17s on a couple BMX cruisers that I sit very upright on, 
> with no issues. I might suggest playing with stem height; a centimeter up 
> or down can make a big difference. I don't think the Selle will solve your 
> dilemma. Possibly a c-17 all weather carved or a C-19 carved. I  personally 
> found the regular C-19 to be overly stiff and uncomfortable over longer 
> distances.

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[masmojo]

It's a delicate dance; regarding the fore/aft adjustment of the saddle, I 
wouldn't monkey with it too much, your knees should be properly positioned in 
relation to the pedals/spindles and that's it. With that set you can analyze 
handlebar position. I didn't see what size frame you are messing with, but on 
my 53 Toyo Atlantis & medium Clementine I run 100mm Technomic stems. So 110mm 
doesn't sound surprising. 
Yes, the Brooks is going to take considerable breaking in, but should work fine 
assuming you don't have a very broad frame or are extremely upright, although I 
run B17s on a couple BMX cruisers that I sit very upright on, with no issues. I 
might suggest playing with stem height; a centimeter up or down can make a big 
difference. I don't think the Selle will solve your dilemma. Possibly a c-17 
all weather carved or a C-19 carved. I  personally found the regular C-19 to be 
overly stiff and uncomfortable over longer distances.

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Sean B.]

Thanks everyone for the responses! I've tried most things. Tilting the 
saddle more, putting on proofide, a different saddle, and a different 
seatpost. I have purchased a Nitto S84 seat post and a Selle Anatomica 
saddle. The S84 and the B17 got it a little bit closer to where I needed 
it, but I wanted to try a different saddle too. I rode the Selle Anatomica 
on the Kalloy Uno that came with my AHH, and it still hurt my tail bone. So 
to get it further back, I put the Selle Anatomica on the S84. I have yet to 
ride it, but it does look a little ridiculously far back. I should also 
mention that my sitbones are nor longer sore with either setup.   

My PBH is 78.74 so the frame (51cm) should be a good size even if it's 
slightly small. I'm now thinking about getting a 130mm Tallux to bring it 
all together. But it is getting quite expensive trying to get this dialed 
into cycling bliss. 

With that said, anyone selling a 130mm Tallux? I might make another post 
too. 

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[phil k]

Hey Sean,

IIRC, the B17 specials have a bit thicker leather, so it takes some time to 
break in. If you're a lighter rider, it will probably take longer. If you 
haven't ridden awhile, your core muscles might not be used to biking, so 
your body make be tempted to shift forward to put the weight on your hands, 
thus you are probably sitting more towards the nose of the saddle than the 
saddle itself.

I suggest you put some proofhide on the saddle, let it work in the leather 
for a couple of days and go out for a ride. I would suggest tilting the 
nose of the saddle upward so it creates sort of a hammock to keep your 
glutes on the back of the saddle.

I usually put proof hide on, once every few months until it breaks in. Also 
helps to tilt saddle nose upward, so it create sort of a hammock to keep 
your glutes on the saddle. Raise your bars up to help with this as well. 
Ride like that for a couple of months and your saddle should be broken in. 
Your body will also adjust and get stronger, and you'll probably be able to 
lower your bars slowly back to where it was. If you're a lighter rider, 
it'll take you longer to break in the saddle. I had a Brooks swift that 
took me 2 years to break in.

Hope that helps!


On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 1:16:30 PM UTC-4, Sean B. wrote:
>
> Hey Bunch!
>
> So I've recently set up my new MIT AHH with the albatross bars and the B17 
> special. I've only ridden it about half a dozen times (approx 50-60 miles). 
> I know there's to be some breaking in for the Brooks. But I'm wondering if 
> the B17 was the wrong choice with the upright Albatross bars. My ride this 
> morning has my tailbone quite sore. I haven't ridden much since last summer 
> and it could be due to shifting my weight since my sitbones were sore from 
> a long ride on Saturday. 
>
> Does anyone else ride with this same setup? Should I wait and see how it 
> breaks in or try another saddle like the Selle Anatomica X1?
>
> Any advice would be appreciated. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

['Eric Myers' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Regarding the Flyer, I've found that the springs work better as suspension 
the more upright you are, but I always had my bars at or slightly above 
saddle height.  This was true back when I weighed 175+, and is still true 
now at about 160.  But more than the overall suspension, I found that the 
Flyer can rock a bit side to side, which may not be great form but can 
certainly make up for a saddle which is an imperfect fit or not adjusted to 
normal standards.  I wouldn't argue for dramatic hip rocking, but enough of 
us are slightly lopsided that a little accommodation goes a long way.  I 
can't remember which saddle company had a bunch of videos about this 10 
years ago or so, was it Selle Anatomica?  Now it seems there are several 
options for saddles which "move".

On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 6:16:43 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Interesting about the Flyer; I installed one on a mountain bike and though 
> I weigh about 175 I couldn't feel any give. Is it a matter of setup? I did 
> have the bar 2 or 3 cm below saddle; does that affect its efficacy?
>
> A Flyer would be nice on the Matthews because much of the terrain I ride 
> is choppy.
>
> On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 6:17 AM Surlyprof > 
> wrote:
>
>> I agree with Joe.  I didn’t like the width of the b67 when I was riding a 
>> more upright setup. I also found my butt getting sore early in a ride on 
>> the b17 despite preferring the shape.  I shifted to Flyer (sprung b17) and 
>> love it.  I know everyone says the springs don’t do anything unless you 
>> weigh a lot but I disagree.  I think Brooks nailed it with the really tight 
>> springs.  I weigh between 165 and 170 and found the Flyer saddle to have 
>> just enough spring to make upright riding comfortable for long distances 
>> without an overly bouncey feel (which I detest).  Even thinking about 
>> getting a Flyer Imperial to take the edge off my hardtail mountain bike.
>>
>> John
>>
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>
>
> *Still 'round the corner there may waitA new road or a secret gate,And 
> though we pass them by today,Tomorrow we may come this wayAnd take the 
> hidden paths that runTowards the Moon or to the Sun.*
> --- J.R.R. Tolkien
> ---
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Re: [RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Patrick Moore]

Interesting about the Flyer; I installed one on a mountain bike and though
I weigh about 175 I couldn't feel any give. Is it a matter of setup? I did
have the bar 2 or 3 cm below saddle; does that affect its efficacy?

A Flyer would be nice on the Matthews because much of the terrain I ride is
choppy.

On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 6:17 AM Surlyprof  wrote:

> I agree with Joe.  I didn’t like the width of the b67 when I was riding a
> more upright setup. I also found my butt getting sore early in a ride on
> the b17 despite preferring the shape.  I shifted to Flyer (sprung b17) and
> love it.  I know everyone says the springs don’t do anything unless you
> weigh a lot but I disagree.  I think Brooks nailed it with the really tight
> springs.  I weigh between 165 and 170 and found the Flyer saddle to have
> just enough spring to make upright riding comfortable for long distances
> without an overly bouncey feel (which I detest).  Even thinking about
> getting a Flyer Imperial to take the edge off my hardtail mountain bike.
>
> John
>
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hidden paths that runTowards the Moon or to the Sun.*
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---
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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Surlyprof]

I agree with Joe.  I didn’t like the width of the b67 when I was riding a more 
upright setup. I also found my butt getting sore early in a ride on the b17 
despite preferring the shape.  I shifted to Flyer (sprung b17) and love it.  I 
know everyone says the springs don’t do anything unless you weigh a lot but I 
disagree.  I think Brooks nailed it with the really tight springs.  I weigh 
between 165 and 170 and found the Flyer saddle to have just enough spring to 
make upright riding comfortable for long distances without an overly bouncey 
feel (which I detest).  Even thinking about getting a Flyer Imperial to take 
the edge off my hardtail mountain bike.

John

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[lconley]

Saddle sizing is mostly about perch bone (sit bone) width, just like frames 
are mostly about PBH. The Rivet site has a procedure for measuring your sit 
bone width. It is not a be-all end-all for determining the correct saddle, 
but knowing your sit bone width is another tool in your arsenal. If you 
have narrow sit bones a B17 is probably the correct seat even upright. I 
ride a B68 with drops (mounted fairly high) and a B67, B71, or B73 upright 
(I am heavy enough for the springs to be functional). But I also need a 54 
cm frame with a 60 cm top tube (6' with an 83 PBH). It is the reason that I 
have a pile of stems and handlebars for experimentation. Not easy if you 
are on a budget.

Laing
Cocoa FL

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 12:47:40 AM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:

> Yeah, I bought the hype for B67/8 being better for upright, too. Not for 
> me, that wide "shelf" you sit on the edge of drove me crazy. All my bikes 
> have upright positions - I ain't no racer boy! - and they all have B17. 

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Joe Bernard]

Yeah, I bought the hype for B67/8 being better for upright, too. Not for me, 
that wide "shelf" you sit on the edge of drove me crazy. All my bikes have 
upright positions - I ain't no racer boy! - and they all have B17. 

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Ash]

What's most comfortable would vary based on your shape, size, weight etc.   
That aside, in general, tuning your setup will get your B17 to 95% comfort 
level of that ideal saddle, whichever it is going to be.  The process of 
finding out which would be an expensive one :)

I started with B-17.  Later bought B-67 with theory that it is more suited 
for upright riding.  I have Boscos on both my bikes (Appaloosa and a road 
bike), which is as upright as it gets.   Ultimately I settled with B17 on 
one and C19 carved on another (for rain friendliness).  Moved away from B67 
because once the nose-up position, setback and stems were all dialed in, 
B-17 felt perfectly comfortable.  It did take a few iterations to get the 
correct stem for each bike.  

Also, in my experience with these saddles, break in made them incrementally 
a little more comfy.  Once the setup was fine-tuned, they felt pretty 
comfortable before the break in.  I have done a few 50+ miles rides without 
much discomfort.

Perhaps you could post a side view picture of your bike so we get an idea 
how it is setup currently..



On Monday, 22 April 2019 10:16:30 UTC-7, Sean B. wrote:
>
> Hey Bunch!
>
> So I've recently set up my new MIT AHH with the albatross bars and the B17 
> special. I've only ridden it about half a dozen times (approx 50-60 miles). 
> I know there's to be some breaking in for the Brooks. But I'm wondering if 
> the B17 was the wrong choice with the upright Albatross bars. My ride this 
> morning has my tailbone quite sore. I haven't ridden much since last summer 
> and it could be due to shifting my weight since my sitbones were sore from 
> a long ride on Saturday. 
>
> Does anyone else ride with this same setup? Should I wait and see how it 
> breaks in or try another saddle like the Selle Anatomica X1?
>
> Any advice would be appreciated. 
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[REC (Roberta)]

Hi Sean.
I took off my selle anatomica non slotted saddle to try one of their 
slotted ones (that I recently got from another poster because I was curious 
about slotted saddles).  So, the non slotted one is just sitting in a box.  
If you would like to borrow it to check it out for the longer rails, just 
pm me and I'd be happy to loan it to you for a week or two, as long as you 
pay shipping.  It's nearly new.  I want to ride more on the slotted one 
before I decide which to keep on the bike.

Roberta (philadelphia)


On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 1:16:30 PM UTC-4, Sean B. wrote:
>
> Hey Bunch!
>
> So I've recently set up my new MIT AHH with the albatross bars and the B17 
> special. I've only ridden it about half a dozen times (approx 50-60 miles). 
> I know there's to be some breaking in for the Brooks. But I'm wondering if 
> the B17 was the wrong choice with the upright Albatross bars. My ride this 
> morning has my tailbone quite sore. I haven't ridden much since last summer 
> and it could be due to shifting my weight since my sitbones were sore from 
> a long ride on Saturday. 
>
> Does anyone else ride with this same setup? Should I wait and see how it 
> breaks in or try another saddle like the Selle Anatomica X1?
>
> Any advice would be appreciated. 
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[lambbo]

I ride a B17 on my Cheviot with Boscos - so very upright.  I switched from 
C19, which is theoretically wider, and find the B17 more comfortable.


On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 1:16:30 PM UTC-4, Sean B. wrote:
>
> Hey Bunch!
>
> So I've recently set up my new MIT AHH with the albatross bars and the B17 
> special. I've only ridden it about half a dozen times (approx 50-60 miles). 
> I know there's to be some breaking in for the Brooks. But I'm wondering if 
> the B17 was the wrong choice with the upright Albatross bars. My ride this 
> morning has my tailbone quite sore. I haven't ridden much since last summer 
> and it could be due to shifting my weight since my sitbones were sore from 
> a long ride on Saturday. 
>
> Does anyone else ride with this same setup? Should I wait and see how it 
> breaks in or try another saddle like the Selle Anatomica X1?
>
> Any advice would be appreciated. 
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Drw]

to the orignal questions re: selle anatomica.  the new models (while i am 
not wildly impressed with the quality, and have serious doubts about long 
term durability), are quite comfortable out of the box and have slightly 
longer rails that may get you an additional cm of setback. not sure i'd use 
them for fully upright though. 

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Joe Bernard]

+1 about break in. It's almost impossible to describe to someone breaking in 
their first Brooks (I don't know if this applies to the OP) how different it 
will feel once the madness of break in is over. I'm still working in a B17 on a 
bike I don't ride much, and it's a torture rack. The broken in versions on two 
other bikes are so comfortable that I literally forget about them on a ride.   

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[John A. Bennett]

The Brooks B-67 is --for most anatomies -- a better choice than the B-17 
when paired with upright bars. 

Your pelvis rotates backward when you sit upright, and the B-67 (or the 
unfortunately discontinued B-68) makes for a better "sit-bones platform."

Leather saddles are like leather shoes, though. They require a little 
break-in time to mold to your body, but once they do, they're more 
comfortable than anything else out there. 

John (in Portland at Rivelo)

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 10:16:30 AM UTC-7, Sean B. wrote:
>
> Hey Bunch!
>
> So I've recently set up my new MIT AHH with the albatross bars and the B17 
> special. I've only ridden it about half a dozen times (approx 50-60 miles). 
> I know there's to be some breaking in for the Brooks. But I'm wondering if 
> the B17 was the wrong choice with the upright Albatross bars. My ride this 
> morning has my tailbone quite sore. I haven't ridden much since last summer 
> and it could be due to shifting my weight since my sitbones were sore from 
> a long ride on Saturday. 
>
> Does anyone else ride with this same setup? Should I wait and see how it 
> breaks in or try another saddle like the Selle Anatomica X1?
>
> Any advice would be appreciated. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[David Bivins]

For a while, I was feeling like my 52cm Clem was too small for me. I felt
like I had really achieved a good balance between bar height and saddle
height. When I felt pressure on my hands, I would raise the bars. When I
felt pressure on the sits bones, I would lower the bars.
But it still felt just a little cramped. I too was looking for a seatpost
with more setback, but coincidentally I was having a lot of trouble with my
non-moose bars and really wanted to try an integrated stem/bar so I got the
chocomoose bars. Suddenly I had a little more space and a more comfortable
ride. It's perfect for now.

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 3:33 PM Sean B.  wrote:

> Does anyone think a seat post with an additional 1cm setback would make
> any difference?
>
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Garth]

Speaking for myself, Saddle fore/aft on a given bike is a rather fixed 
position, meaning there is a sweet spot of "centered-ness" within the 
frame. As far as I'm concerned you don't change this just top get more 
reach.  

Whether or not you're there , It's really an intuitive sense. You should be 
able to pedal no handed and feel smack dab centered in the bike, not 
falling forward or back. 

As for getting the saddle back further if needed the best choice bar none 
is the Nitto S84. It has over 40mm of setback. Don't cheap out and get the 
lesser quality VO with only 30mm. 

As for the reach and height of bars, sheesh  that is again is really 
intuitive. An Albatross bar *may* allow you to ride more upright if you 
wish, but the amount is also a function of frame design/reach, bar and stem 
and rider, all together combined. No single part exists and functions in a 
vacuum everything works with everything. 

All that said  enjoy the ride :) 

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Sean B.]

Does anyone think a seat post with an additional 1cm setback would make any 
difference? 

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 2:28:28 PM UTC-5, John Phillips wrote:
>
> Joe, I would concur as I have an 11cm Tallux and Alba's on my Hunqapillar 
> (original build from RBW), and I'm thinking about moving to a 13cm stem, or 
> maybe drops and a different stem altogether.
>
> John
>
> On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 11:42:20 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> I'm surprised an 11 was recommended, I wouldn't even THINK of using an 
>> Alba on that bike with anything less than a 13cm Tallux. 
>>
>> I don't remember what I did with that AHH before I sold it, but my 
>> current similar-size road bike - a Paul Taylor - was running a 13 Tallux 
>> and V-O Milan before I switched it to drops. The Milan worked. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[John Phillips]

Joe, I would concur as I have an 11cm Tallux and Alba's on my Hunqapillar 
(original build from RBW), and I'm thinking about moving to a 13cm stem, or 
maybe drops and a different stem altogether.

John

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 11:42:20 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I'm surprised an 11 was recommended, I wouldn't even THINK of using an 
> Alba on that bike with anything less than a 13cm Tallux. 
>
> I don't remember what I did with that AHH before I sold it, but my current 
> similar-size road bike - a Paul Taylor - was running a 13 Tallux and V-O 
> Milan before I switched it to drops. The Milan worked. 
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Drw]

I think both things are true. the B17 seems to have a relatively small 
comfortable/usable area, and the rear of it is somehow the worst. that 
said, i cant imagine riding a bike where my tailbone contacted the saddle 
on any sort of regular basis. i had a sam for a while and for about a week 
it had a B17 with albatross bars on one of the longer tallux stems. My 
feeling was that the bars were making the ride really cramped and kept 
making me want to scoot back or find a way to stretch out. eventually i 
went to the map ahearne bars and was very happy. thats just me though, and 
the final position was not bolt upright. i think super upright would 
require a different saddle for sure. 

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Joe Bernard]

To be clear so there's no risk in disagreement, I tend to voice my opinions 
strongly, which sounds like I think they are facts. They are not facts, they 
are my opinions from my experiences. 

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Kevin Lindsey]

At the risk of sparking disagreement, I think the problem lies with the B17 
saddle which, in my experience, generally doesn’t support a comfortable upright 
riding posture.  It flares up in back which seems designed to accommodate a 
forward-leaning torso, not one that’s sitting more nearly vertical.  It’s why 
so many of us have had to raise the noses of our B17s: to compensate for the 
fact that the back of the saddle slopes upward just at the point where the 
width of the saddle matches our sit bones.  It’s also, I think, why so many of 
us complain of constantly sliding forward on our Brooks seats.
I solved this problem by gradually dumping all my Brooks saddles and replacing 
them with Rivet Imogenes, which are flat, relatively wide, extremely well made, 
and beautiful, to boot.  
Kevin Lindsey
Alexandria, VA
USA

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[John Phillips]

Hi Seam,
 If I used a seatpost with more setback on my AHH, I'd also have to 
lower my saddle a bit to maintain the same distance to my pedals, which 
would move my saddle forward a bit. A different stem and handelbars combo 
would give you more reach for the buck.

   Have you checked out the What Bars? website: http://whatbars.com/   
Great for comparing handlebars.

I also ride a Berthoud Aspin on my AHH, which allows me to scoot my 
butt back a little compared to the B17 Select I used before, but again, a 
tiny difference, but my butt was much happier.

John


On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 11:31:03 AM UTC-7, Sean B. wrote:
>
> John,
>
> I'm using an 11cm stem and a seat post with a setback of at least 2cm (I'm 
> currently unsure and unable to measure). I'm using the seat post that came 
> with the bike. I'm also looking at a seat post that can give me a larger 
> setback.  
>
> On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 1:26:44 PM UTC-5, John Phillips wrote:
>>
>> Sean, what is the reach of the stem you're using with the Albatross bars? 
>> And what is the setback of the seatpost you're using?
>>
>> On my AHH, I'm using a Nitton S83 seatpost with 2cm setback, and Noodle 
>> bars with an 8cm stem. I think Albatross bars would have me sitting on my 
>> tailbone too unless I used a stem with a whole lot of reach.
>>
>> You might need a stem with more reach, and/or as others have said, you 
>> might need other handlebars with some more reach.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 10:16:30 AM UTC-7, Sean B. wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey Bunch!
>>>
>>> So I've recently set up my new MIT AHH with the albatross bars and the 
>>> B17 special. I've only ridden it about half a dozen times (approx 50-60 
>>> miles). I know there's to be some breaking in for the Brooks. But I'm 
>>> wondering if the B17 was the wrong choice with the upright Albatross bars. 
>>> My ride this morning has my tailbone quite sore. I haven't ridden much 
>>> since last summer and it could be due to shifting my weight since my 
>>> sitbones were sore from a long ride on Saturday. 
>>>
>>> Does anyone else ride with this same setup? Should I wait and see how it 
>>> breaks in or try another saddle like the Selle Anatomica X1?
>>>
>>> Any advice would be appreciated. 
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Joe Bernard]

I'm surprised an 11 was recommended, I wouldn't even THINK of using an Alba on 
that bike with anything less than a 13cm Tallux. 

I don't remember what I did with that AHH before I sold it, but my current 
similar-size road bike - a Paul Taylor - was running a 13 Tallux and V-O Milan 
before I switched it to drops. The Milan worked. 

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Sean B.]

John,

I'm using an 11cm stem and a seat post with a setback of at least 2cm (I'm 
currently unsure and unable to measure). I'm using the seat post that came 
with the bike. I'm also looking at a seat post that can give me a larger 
setback.  

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 1:26:44 PM UTC-5, John Phillips wrote:
>
> Sean, what is the reach of the stem you're using with the Albatross bars? 
> And what is the setback of the seatpost you're using?
>
> On my AHH, I'm using a Nitton S83 seatpost with 2cm setback, and Noodle 
> bars with an 8cm stem. I think Albatross bars would have me sitting on my 
> tailbone too unless I used a stem with a whole lot of reach.
>
> You might need a stem with more reach, and/or as others have said, you 
> might need other handlebars with some more reach.
>
> John
>
> On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 10:16:30 AM UTC-7, Sean B. wrote:
>>
>> Hey Bunch!
>>
>> So I've recently set up my new MIT AHH with the albatross bars and the 
>> B17 special. I've only ridden it about half a dozen times (approx 50-60 
>> miles). I know there's to be some breaking in for the Brooks. But I'm 
>> wondering if the B17 was the wrong choice with the upright Albatross bars. 
>> My ride this morning has my tailbone quite sore. I haven't ridden much 
>> since last summer and it could be due to shifting my weight since my 
>> sitbones were sore from a long ride on Saturday. 
>>
>> Does anyone else ride with this same setup? Should I wait and see how it 
>> breaks in or try another saddle like the Selle Anatomica X1?
>>
>> Any advice would be appreciated. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[John Phillips]

Sean, what is the reach of the stem you're using with the Albatross bars? 
And what is the setback of the seatpost you're using?

On my AHH, I'm using a Nitton S83 seatpost with 2cm setback, and Noodle 
bars with an 8cm stem. I think Albatross bars would have me sitting on my 
tailbone too unless I used a stem with a whole lot of reach.

You might need a stem with more reach, and/or as others have said, you 
might need other handlebars with some more reach.

John

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 10:16:30 AM UTC-7, Sean B. wrote:
>
> Hey Bunch!
>
> So I've recently set up my new MIT AHH with the albatross bars and the B17 
> special. I've only ridden it about half a dozen times (approx 50-60 miles). 
> I know there's to be some breaking in for the Brooks. But I'm wondering if 
> the B17 was the wrong choice with the upright Albatross bars. My ride this 
> morning has my tailbone quite sore. I haven't ridden much since last summer 
> and it could be due to shifting my weight since my sitbones were sore from 
> a long ride on Saturday. 
>
> Does anyone else ride with this same setup? Should I wait and see how it 
> breaks in or try another saddle like the Selle Anatomica X1?
>
> Any advice would be appreciated. 
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Sean B.]

Thanks Joe! What did you end up going with? 

I really like these bars, even went with a longer stem like Grant 
recommended. I might try another seat post. VO has one with 30mm of set 
back, I'm not sure what my current is so will have to measure or call. Then 
again I might just abandon upright-ness and go back to drops. 

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 12:44:18 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> My first guess based on the bike you bought, and your desire to move the 
> saddle further back, is you need more room than the Albatross provides. All 
> Hilsens - MIT and otherwise - are designed as road bikes which can fit with 
> drop bars, which is the polar opposite of what you have. I owned a Toyo 
> 54cm AHH - the biggest one I could straddle - and the toptube was still too 
> short for the long reachback of Albas..I had the same problem you're 
> experiencing. 
>
> I think you'd be happier with a more forward bar like Wavie, original 
> Bullmoose, V-O Milan, or even a Jones Loop. 
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Sean B.]

Adam,

I have. The nose is pretty far up currently. 

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 12:42:50 PM UTC-5, Adam Leibow wrote:
>
> with upright riding positions people usually tilt the nose of the saddle 
> up a little more than you'd expect. try that?
>
> On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 10:16:30 AM UTC-7, Sean B. wrote:
>>
>> Hey Bunch!
>>
>> So I've recently set up my new MIT AHH with the albatross bars and the 
>> B17 special. I've only ridden it about half a dozen times (approx 50-60 
>> miles). I know there's to be some breaking in for the Brooks. But I'm 
>> wondering if the B17 was the wrong choice with the upright Albatross bars. 
>> My ride this morning has my tailbone quite sore. I haven't ridden much 
>> since last summer and it could be due to shifting my weight since my 
>> sitbones were sore from a long ride on Saturday. 
>>
>> Does anyone else ride with this same setup? Should I wait and see how it 
>> breaks in or try another saddle like the Selle Anatomica X1?
>>
>> Any advice would be appreciated. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Joe Bernard]

My first guess based on the bike you bought, and your desire to move the saddle 
further back, is you need more room than the Albatross provides. All Hilsens - 
MIT and otherwise - are designed as road bikes which can fit with drop bars, 
which is the polar opposite of what you have. I owned a Toyo 54cm AHH - the 
biggest one I could straddle - and the toptube was still too short for the long 
reachback of Albas..I had the same problem you're experiencing. 

I think you'd be happier with a more forward bar like Wavie, original 
Bullmoose, V-O Milan, or even a Jones Loop. 

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Sean B.]

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 12:42:50 PM UTC-5, Adam Leibow wrote:
>
> with upright riding positions people usually tilt the nose of the saddle 
> up a little more than you'd expect. try that?
>
> On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 10:16:30 AM UTC-7, Sean B. wrote:
>>
>> Hey Bunch!
>>
>> So I've recently set up my new MIT AHH with the albatross bars and the 
>> B17 special. I've only ridden it about half a dozen times (approx 50-60 
>> miles). I know there's to be some breaking in for the Brooks. But I'm 
>> wondering if the B17 was the wrong choice with the upright Albatross bars. 
>> My ride this morning has my tailbone quite sore. I haven't ridden much 
>> since last summer and it could be due to shifting my weight since my 
>> sitbones were sore from a long ride on Saturday. 
>>
>> Does anyone else ride with this same setup? Should I wait and see how it 
>> breaks in or try another saddle like the Selle Anatomica X1?
>>
>> Any advice would be appreciated. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Adam Leibow]

with upright riding positions people usually tilt the nose of the saddle up 
a little more than you'd expect. try that?

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 10:16:30 AM UTC-7, Sean B. wrote:
>
> Hey Bunch!
>
> So I've recently set up my new MIT AHH with the albatross bars and the B17 
> special. I've only ridden it about half a dozen times (approx 50-60 miles). 
> I know there's to be some breaking in for the Brooks. But I'm wondering if 
> the B17 was the wrong choice with the upright Albatross bars. My ride this 
> morning has my tailbone quite sore. I haven't ridden much since last summer 
> and it could be due to shifting my weight since my sitbones were sore from 
> a long ride on Saturday. 
>
> Does anyone else ride with this same setup? Should I wait and see how it 
> breaks in or try another saddle like the Selle Anatomica X1?
>
> Any advice would be appreciated. 
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Sean B.]

I believe it was today (hitting the saddle), as it's the only time riding 
this set up that I've had the issue. I was riding a bit different to 
lighten the load on my sit bones. I would like to move the saddle further 
back a bit but cant due to the rails.  

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 12:24:32 PM UTC-5, Drw wrote:
>
> Hmm. is your tailbone actually hitting the saddle? that seems like more of 
> a fit/adjustment issue than breaking in. 
>

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[RBW] Re: New bike woes - Albatross bars and Brooks B17 Special saddle

[Drw]

Hmm. is your tailbone actually hitting the saddle? that seems like more of 
a fit/adjustment issue than breaking in. 

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