Re: [RBW] Re: On Topic / Off Topic

[Jonathan D.]

Jim - thank you for all you do for this forum to keep it going. I do really 
value it and the community. I also see how some threads digress and lose 
civility and I don’t envy your role to manage that. 

I don’t think Jan’s post was off topic or inappropriate though and I think the 
Blahg is evidence of this.  Rivendell’s values and mission align with the BLM 
movement. There are years of systemic racism and sexism in bike culture and 
history that Grant highlighted this week and many times before, and I hope we 
can also continue to challenge this history wherever and whenever we can.  I do 
think there is a level of white privilege to expect to come to this forum and 
not have to hear about what our neighbors face everyday just for being black or 
brown, or gay, or trans, etc and be confronted with what is happening in this 
world.  I do think everyone should be expected to be civil to each other, be 
respectful and at times let the thread stop. 

Again thank you for all you do. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: On Topic / Off Topic

[Joe Bernard]

"What I observed was a really reasonable, civil topic highlighting BLM and an 
fundraising effort that Jan is making with Bicycle Quarterly. Maybe I missed 
something inflammatory in it, but the email is now lost."

It shouldn't be necessary to keep repeating this, it's in the original post on 
this thread. Jim was getting a lot of private feedback we have not seen. His 
decision was based on information we are not privy to. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: On Topic / Off Topic

[Steve Palincsar]

On 6/3/20 3:10 PM, William Henderson wrote:
What I observed was a really reasonable, civil topic highlighting BLM 
and an fundraising effort that Jan is making with Bicycle Quarterly. 
Maybe I missed something inflammatory in it, but the email is now lost 
(along with the link 
).



The initial email was informative rather than inflammatory.  It also 
asked that there be no follow-on discussion on the list, asking that if 
anyone wanted to discuss the subject to do so on the Rene Herse blog.




Like others, I want this to remain a civil community. However, I find 
the judgement call about what is "on topic" problematic. If this is 
about civility, let's focus on that and not muddy the waters with any 
other areas for subjectivity.


Here are some different actions that could be taken:
- Write a code of conduct for the group and post it as a sticky post. 
Be clear about what constitutes uncivil behavior, what kinds of topics 
are explicitly disallowed, and what the consequences are when someone 
breaks the rules.
- When it comes to deleting threads, I think it's really important to 
preserve the thread so that people can see how the code is being 
enforced. This provides accountability in both directions. The obvious 
exception would be for threads or messages that are hateful or 
abusive. I'd suggest a policy like this:


 1. When someone posts something uncivil, it will be deleted.
 2. When someone posts something about a topic that is explicitly
disallowed, the thread will be locked (but not deleted) along with
a reminder about the code of conduct.
 3. When someone posts something that isn't uncivil seems like it
could be taking the thread in that direction, the thread will be
locked (but not deleted) along with a personal statement from the
moderator about them making the call to shut it down in order to
protect the community sense of safety and civility.



This would work nicely if this was a forum.  But there is a technical 
problem.  It is not a forum, it is a google group. While a google group 
may look like a forum to those who access it via a web browser, it also 
acts like an email discussion group / listserv, and a significant number 
of participants get list postings by email.  Google group software can't 
delete already delivered emails and doesn't provide a way to lock a 
topic so that email replies to already received emails in the discussion 
topic aren't delivered.


From a moderator / list owner's perspective, this makes the moderation 
job more complicated.


Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: On Topic / Off Topic

[MCT]

Thanks Jim for all the work you do for the group.  

This is a simple one. Jim is the moderator and decides the rules and what is 
acceptable to post.  If don’t like the rules, then start your own group/forum 
where you can make the rules you want. 


Matt in OKC

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Re: [RBW] Re: On Topic / Off Topic

[William Henderson]

What I observed was a really reasonable, civil topic highlighting BLM and an 
fundraising effort that Jan is making with Bicycle Quarterly. Maybe I missed 
something inflammatory in it, but the email is now lost (along with the link ( 
https://www.renehersecycles.com/a-small-thing-bq-fund-drive-to-benefit-black-lives-matter/
 ) ).

Like others, I want this to remain a civil community. However, I find the 
judgement call about what is "on topic" problematic. If this is about civility, 
let's focus on that and not muddy the waters with any other areas for 
subjectivity.

Here are some different actions that could be taken:

- Write a code of conduct for the group and post it as a sticky post. Be clear 
about what constitutes uncivil behavior, what kinds of topics are explicitly 
disallowed, and what the consequences are when someone breaks the rules.

- When it comes to deleting threads, I think it's really important to preserve 
the thread so that people can see how the code is being enforced. This provides 
accountability in both directions. The obvious exception would be for threads 
or messages that are hateful or abusive. I'd suggest a policy like this:

* When someone posts something uncivil, it will be deleted.

* When someone posts something about a topic that is explicitly disallowed, the 
thread will be locked (but not deleted) along with a reminder about the code of 
conduct.

* When someone posts something that isn't uncivil seems like it could be taking 
the thread in that direction, the thread will be locked (but not deleted) along 
with a personal statement from the moderator about them making the call to shut 
it down in order to protect the community sense of safety and civility.

Again, this is ultimately your community Jim and you have the power & 
responsibility to make the call here. The rest of us have the power & 
responsibility to make sure that we are participating in a community that is 
compatible with our core values.

William

William
Sent from my iPhone

On Wed, Jun 03, 2020 at 9:42 AM, Philip Williamson < 
philip.william...@gmail.com > wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your thoughtful post, Franklyn. I agree that race is an
> in-bounds topic here, but name-calling is unacceptable and
> counter-persuasive. I’ve seen more people bend away from their reflexive
> answers in the last few days than ever before on the internet, and only in
> response to kindness while explaining a different perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> I’m sorry that stuff happens to you. It sounds much worse than my
> experience with people in cars who feel I’m a just target for being on
> “their” roads. I’m glad you persist in riding. I also particularly enjoy
> your photos of Berkeley views.
> 
> 
> 
> Philip
> Santa Rosa, CA
> 
> 
> 
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[RBW] Re: On Topic / Off Topic

[Philip Williamson]

Thank you for your thoughtful post, Franklyn. I agree that race is an in-bounds 
topic here, but name-calling is unacceptable and counter-persuasive. I’ve seen 
more people bend away from their reflexive answers in the last few days than 
ever before on the internet, and only in response to kindness while explaining 
a different perspective. 

I’m sorry that stuff happens to you. It sounds much worse than my experience 
with people in cars who feel I’m a just target for being on “their” roads. I’m 
glad you persist in riding. I also particularly enjoy your photos of Berkeley 
views. 


Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: On Topic / Off Topic

[Joe Bernard]

To reiterate because I think it's going to get lost, Jim has stated the thread 
was pulled because public and private comments led him to determine the 
discussion was going to get out of control. He didn't pull it because of the 
charitable organization itself. 

Joe Bernard

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Re: [RBW] Re: On Topic / Off Topic

[Patrick Moore]

Garth, sometimes you actually make sense. Good points.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:41 AM Garth  wrote:

>
>I appreciate this place because we don't talk politics, religion and
> social issues of the day.  As stated, there are many other places to do
> that, and many places that decidedly do not. Would I expect to hear about
> the issues of the day on a website about say cooking, auto repair,
> living/hanging out in the wilderness and such ?  Decidedly nay. Do the site
> admins there welcome such diversions ? Not if they wish to stay on topic.
>
>   It's impossible to "talk about the pressing issues of the day because I
> care"  and not get swept away in playing out the very representative
> roles that those issues encompass. What drives the story ? Conflict,
> division, taking/making sides . _ vs._ .   When does it end ?
> Not by playing it out, that's for sure. It "ends" by having no ground from
> which to begin in the first place.
>
>   - Garth
>
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> .
>


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---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[RBW] Re: On Topic / Off Topic

[franklyn]

I appreciate the work Jim does to moderate the forum. I haven't owned a 
Rivendell in 10 years but all my bikes reflect preferences I gained because 
of Rivendell's influence, and I still use many parts and accessories that 
Riv sells. 

I think drawing a line on the metric of civility, tones, and respect is 
very reasonable. I remember members requesting moderators to shut down a 
thread on helmet debate. The fact is, we can get pretty worked up on 
bike-exclusive issues like low/high trail; long/short chainstays, etc. 
Disagreement ain't bad, we just don't want to call each other names!

I appreciate Grant's newest blahg entry, as he makes plain that bicycles 
are inextricably linked to human history and activities, and racial and 
other social justice are no exceptions. In the worst pandemic we have faced 
for 100 years, even public health experts support protest and assembly 
because racial injustice to them is a "public health" issue.

Personally, I can speak to how my experience with biking are tied to the 
issue of race. I love doing long-distance rides; brevets, mixed-terrain 
ramblings, short and long tours, S24Os. Even in places that are considered 
"diverse" and "progressive" I have experienced hostility that are thrown my 
way because I am not white, anywhere from race-tinted jokes and names, fake 
accents, sometimes those comes in combination with things thrown my way; 
one time a passenger of a truck swung a plastic soda bottle at me as they 
drove by, while saying some racial epithets. Riding our bikes to beautiful 
and remote places is liberating, but this type of activities also makes us 
vulnerable. On a tour, bike trip, or long rides, in addition to all the 
usual bike-related logistics, I always wonder, and sometimes look into, 
whether a locale is 1) friendly to cyclists; 2) does it have a reputation 
of treating POCs poorly. Obviously, we are still sheltering in place and I 
don't have plans to do any bike travel right now, but the 
anti-asian/anti-chinese sentiments and attacks that came with pandemic give 
me more pause on traveling to some locations. 

My point is, we talk a lot about life circumstances when it intercept 
cycling/bikes: commute; city infrastructure; traffic; bike-friendly 
services/locales; aging and health. For people of color, especially the 
African American community, race intercepts/cuts deeper and affects us just 
as much, if not more than some or all of these other categories that are OK 
to talk about on this list. Many of these other issues are "political" 
and/or controversial, too. Whether local transportation and urban planning 
policies (funding for bike-specific infrastructure; lowering the speed 
limit, etc.) appropriately address the needs of non-car modes are deeply 
political and can be divisive, and no one bats an eye if a lister shares 
the experience that residents of a particular neighborhood are especially 
anti-bikes (as shown by anti-bike signs or laying tacks on the road, etc.). 
A year or so ago, someone set up a booby trap on a popular bike path in 
Portland (OR) and seriously injured a cyclist. The perpetrator was arrested 
and later put on trial. I don't think anyone would object talking about 
that on this list, so why is racial injustice any different, after all, it 
serious endanger some people, including when they are riding bikes (or 
jogging, as in the case of Armaud Arbery).

We never had any problem when Grant and sometimes even other listers 
announce a charitable cause, why should we block Jan from announcing his? 
After all, even if we are allergic to "racial" stuff, (as I mentioned 
earlier) public health experts support the protesters congregating despite 
the pandemic because racial injustice is a serious "public health" issue. 
How is soliciting contribution for a public health cause any different than 
other cause that other listers solicit for?

I am not opposed to banning and removing certain threads, and I think 
negativity/uncivility/lack of respect is a good criterion for that, not the 
fact that we are talking about something related to race or other social 
justice issues.
with respect,
Franklyn
Berkeley, CA

On Tuesday, June 2, 2020 at 10:58:12 PM UTC-7, Cyclofiend Jim wrote:
>
> I appreciate the honesty of your feedback. 
>
> It may have been absolutely the wrong move. We are all decidedly 
> imperfect. 
>
> My decision was related more to the tone of the responses (both public and 
> moderated) which seemed to be quickly going off-course. it seemed to be 
> boiling up, which is happening quite a bit of late. 
>
> - Jim
>

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[RBW] Re: On Topic / Off Topic

[Garth]

   I appreciate this place because we don't talk politics, religion and 
social issues of the day.  As stated, there are many other places to do 
that, and many places that decidedly do not. Would I expect to hear about 
the issues of the day on a website about say cooking, auto repair, 
living/hanging out in the wilderness and such ?  Decidedly nay. Do the site 
admins there welcome such diversions ? Not if they wish to stay on topic. 

  It's impossible to "talk about the pressing issues of the day because I 
care"  and not get swept away in playing out the very representative 
roles that those issues encompass. What drives the story ? Conflict, 
division, taking/making sides . _ vs._ .   When does it end ?  
Not by playing it out, that's for sure. It "ends" by having no ground from 
which to begin in the first place. 

  - Garth 

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[RBW] Re: On Topic / Off Topic

[Cyclofiend Jim]

I appreciate the honesty of your feedback. 

It may have been absolutely the wrong move. We are all decidedly imperfect. 

My decision was related more to the tone of the responses (both public and 
moderated) which seemed to be quickly going off-course. it seemed to be 
boiling up, which is happening quite a bit of late. 

- Jim

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