[RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question
I put in a bottom bracket yesterday. Just though I would share a simple technique to avoid cross threading. First off, reach through the other side and support the spindle end with a least a fingertip to help with the alignment. Turn the threads the wrong way until you feel a slight bump of the first thread lining up. Then try threading the right way - it should go in with no resistance. If you feel resistance, immediately reverse direction, feel again for the bump. When you can make several turns without feeling resistance, you're there. On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 9:09:31 PM UTC-6, drew beckmeyer wrote: curiosity got the best of me and i had it taken out/replaced (with a lovely phil bb purchased from this group). most of your analysis' were right on the money. some uncleanliness, slightly imperfect fit, possibly unchased shell etc made the initial install hard, but all is well and the threads are intact. thanks for calming me down. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question
curiosity got the best of me and i had it taken out/replaced (with a lovely phil bb purchased from this group). most of your analysis' were right on the money. some uncleanliness, slightly imperfect fit, possibly unchased shell etc made the initial install hard, but all is well and the threads are intact. thanks for calming me down. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question
Tools used for cutting or chasing BB threads are used enough that there is wear of material form them, including that of re-sharpening, can leave less perfect threads. If the tool has wear, the cuts are not as deep and more metal remains than if it was done by a new cutter. A new BB threaded into them may feel more snug and less smooth. Nothing you'll sense if a shop puts it in for you. Chasing the threads in a local shop will usually bring off some metal but resulting in a higher tolerance to the threading specification, and a smoother install. I doubt your installer had anything seriously wrong going on since a mis-threaded BB would be a bear to actually turn after a turn or two. If the component ended up on-axis and the other cup could even go in it finished being screwed in on the threads There may have been some abuse of the first thread of the part from not starting perfectly on line and that may have produced the drag you witnessed; the component's threading is seldom stronger than the frame's now that the piece we are screwing on isn't the actual race for the ball bearing like the old days. Those ball and cup units had a much shorter length of total threading and could be cross-threaded all the way in, then with a goliath finishing effort, turned just enough more to collapse threads (the frame's or the part's), regain on-axis alignment and finish flush against the frame's BB face. Those destructive outcomes were never appreciated until you or another shop tried to disassemble to service or replace such an installed BB and see the band of resultant missing threads in the frame. They could go on unnoticed for years or be the part that comes loose very quickly, causing a click when pedaling. BB designs have evolved in a way which circumvents the not fully proficient local installation of their parts and distances their manufacturers from frame damage claim situations in or by local shops. Andy Cheatham Pittsburgh On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 at 1:05:24 AM UTC-5, Jeremy Till wrote: As a professional mechanic, I would say that there are numerous reasons a BB might go in slightly tightly or not as easily as a perfect tool video might show: 1. It is true that not all frames from Rivendell are faced and chased before they are delivered to customers. I had to end up facing and chasing my Quickbeam when I got it. 2. Shimano BB's now ship with a thread locking compound pre-applied to their threads, so there is resistance from that the first time you thread in a BB. 3. Even perfectly faced/chased BB shells and BB's with clean threads will not always thread together 100% smoothly. To a certain extent it depends on the production tolerances of the BB shell and BB cups, how much deformation there was in joining the tubes and BB shell, etc. If anything, I would take comfort in the fact that it took them a while and that they backed it out to check things as they were installing it. They were taking the time to make sure it was done right. The hamfisted mechanic forces things in quickly and doesn't give it a second thought. On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 5:28:03 PM UTC-8, drew beckmeyer wrote: preface: im not much of a mechanic. i can install and adjust most allen wrenchy components, but beyond that, i go to a bike shop. so, i got my hunqapillar frame a few months ago and i got a standard issue shimano bb to have installed. took it to a local used bike shop and had the guys put it in, since i dont have the tool or previous knowledge of how to do this. i watched them and it looked like it was taking some work. hard cranking, working it in and out etc. grease was used, but they didnt chase it. it struck me as not the easiest/somewhat rough install, but id never seen one installed before, so what did i know... bike rides fine. bb is smooth, no sounds, no wiggle, no complaints. Cut to me, now, watching instructional videos. i stumble upon a bb install video and it seems like theirs went in much easier than mine. this makes me nervous. i call a higher end and reputable bike shop and tell them this story. mechanic says it might just be that it wasn't chased. it might be that they stripped the threads and if we take the bottom bracket out, one will never go back in again. i ask if what he would do if he was in this predicament. we can check it out, but i would maybe just ride it until you need a new bottom bracket because if the threads are gone, we cant fix it. obviously, this makes me infinitely more nervous and sick to my stomach. what can you tell me? what would you do? how likely is it that this is a deathblow? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to
Re: [RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question
Dear Patrick, It isn't the end of the world, though it is a hassle. If the threads are actually mangled, you may be able to fix them as Patrick outlines. You also can re-thread BSC bottom brackets to Italian threads. Worst case, brass in the munged up ones and recut them and repaint the bike. Best Regards, Will William M. deRosset Fort Collins, CO On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 6:39:30 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote: Note that cross threaded bb shells (if they are steel) can be (1) sometimes fixed by chasing; (2) repaired by a framebuild; (3) salvaged by using a non-threading-type bb bearing assembly. But Deacon P is right: if the shop messed the threads up, they owe you. On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.com javascript: wrote: I'm not the expert others here are, but I've done my BB a number of times. It sounds to my like the second shop gave you good advice with the following additional thoughts: -- can you get the first shop to stand by their work and if the frame is ruined to pay for the new frame? I wouldn't recommend using them again, even if it is threaded properly, but find out if Rivendell chases their BB area before selling the frame? (Rivendell built up both my bikes, so I don't know on frame only purchases). -- Can a good frame shop chase it even if it's been misthreaded? Good hunting! With abandon, Patrick -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript:. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. Other professional writing services. http://www.resumespecialties.com/ www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten * *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question
i echo everyone's statement about not getting too worried about it. i've had an issue in the past where i had a frame and bb-cup that just didn't agree (other bb-cups worked fine, and other frames worked fine with that particular bb-cup). in the end i just bought a new bb-cup so i could re-use that bb. for me at least, i tend not to wear out bbs and replace them that often, so this is possibly a problem to be dealt with many years in the future if at all. so don't think about it too much, and don't go messing around with it out of curiosity, if it's working and all buttoned up, just leave it alone! On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 11:50:24 PM UTC-5, drew beckmeyer wrote: thanks all for the one-way-or-another reassuring thoughts, experiences and ideas. i agree that the better shop may not be as prepared to do a creative workaround as i want. if it comes to that point, ill have to find a place that knows all the tricks you guys know. joe, im holding out that my experience will mirror your many non destructive experiences. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question
Note that cross threaded bb shells (if they are steel) can be (1) sometimes fixed by chasing; (2) repaired by a framebuild; (3) salvaged by using a non-threading-type bb bearing assembly. But Deacon P is right: if the shop messed the threads up, they owe you. On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote: I'm not the expert others here are, but I've done my BB a number of times. It sounds to my like the second shop gave you good advice with the following additional thoughts: -- can you get the first shop to stand by their work and if the frame is ruined to pay for the new frame? I wouldn't recommend using them again, even if it is threaded properly, but find out if Rivendell chases their BB area before selling the frame? (Rivendell built up both my bikes, so I don't know on frame only purchases). -- Can a good frame shop chase it even if it's been misthreaded? Good hunting! With abandon, Patrick -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. Other professional writing services. http://www.resumespecialties.com/ www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten * *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question
honestly, i doubt i kept a receipt for the work that was done. i figured that they must install bottom brackets multiple times a day, and everything was normal. the whole install took 10 minutes. it would be hard to prove and i can't imagine them willingly admitting to it. it seems like if it is all mucked up in there, that i still have options. which is very reassuring and i am sort of breathing normal again. i dont know if i can stand not knowing, so ill probably have it taken out to see what, if anything, is ruined. fingers crossed that you wont be replying to the thread where i ask for frame builder recommendations. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question
Oh Drew, I should add that my experiences include 5 Riv frames I installed/replaced BBs on, including a Saluki which had never been built up before it was sold to me. In general I would say they were easier to work on than other older bikes I've fiddled with, but there was still much variation in effort, and it varied according to which cartridge bottom bracket I was working with. On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 6:53:25 PM UTC-8, drew beckmeyer wrote: pb, yeah you're hitting on what i was just wondering about myself. the frame was new, but not straight from the factory. it had been at rivendell for a while. the riv bb install video says that they face+chase before sending out, but that video is from 2010, so i dont know if it still applies... IIRC the bottom bracket shell was not sparkling with cleanliness. i think there was a little oxidation and stuff. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question
I'm not the expert others here are, but I've done my BB a number of times. It sounds to my like the second shop gave you good advice with the following additional thoughts: -- can you get the first shop to stand by their work and if the frame is ruined to pay for the new frame? I wouldn't recommend using them again, even if it is threaded properly, but find out if Rivendell chases their BB area before selling the frame? (Rivendell built up both my bikes, so I don't know on frame only purchases). -- Can a good frame shop chase it even if it's been misthreaded? Good hunting! With abandon, Patrick -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question
If there was some crud in there, you most likely saw them slowly grinding through it with greased threads..backing off and going back in further a few times. I've done exactly this literally dozens of times. In my experience modern Shimano bottom brackets can be a bit of a tight fit compared to the ease with which we used to screw in old cup-and-cone assemblies. Regardless of the instructions to fit one side all the way in, then the other, I find that sometimes I have to back the first side halfway out a bit, then work the other side, then back to the first. And I've had different levels of install effort on the same frame with different cartridge BBs. If you really want to get your hands dirty and put your mind at ease, get yourself a crank-bolt wrench, crank puller, BB tool, and an adjustable wrench (or socket wrench); bring up the install page at parktool.com so you know which side turns which; and start removing both cups a bit. You'll probably find that they pull out and go back in straight, but with some effort. This should ease your mind that's it's in there..and you'll know how to replace it! Joe cartridges are maintenance free, but they ain't sweet like the old stuff Bernard Vallejo, CA. On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 6:53:25 PM UTC-8, drew beckmeyer wrote: pb, yeah you're hitting on what i was just wondering about myself. the frame was new, but not straight from the factory. it had been at rivendell for a while. the riv bb install video says that they face+chase before sending out, but that video is from 2010, so i dont know if it still applies... IIRC the bottom bracket shell was not sparkling with cleanliness. i think there was a little oxidation and stuff. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question
pb, yeah you're hitting on what i was just wondering about myself. the frame was new, but not straight from the factory. it had been at rivendell for a while. the riv bb install video says that they face+chase before sending out, but that video is from 2010, so i dont know if it still applies... IIRC the bottom bracket shell was not sparkling with cleanliness. i think there was a little oxidation and stuff. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question
Drew, was it a new, never-before-assembled frame? I don't know how clean those frames are when Riv sends them out. For clarification -- I'm not saying they aren't clean -- I'm saying I don't know. Does Riv have a policy of facing and chasing before shipping? Or was it a used and dirty frame? If the BB was never chased, or if it was dirty or oxidized, the installer could very well have had to wrestle a bit, but that doesn't mean he stripped anything. My sense is, 80-90% chance you will have no problem in the future, but when it's time to replace the BB, you might be wise to chase out the threads at that time. BTW, there's one other bail-out/fall-back for badly stripped English BB's: tap out to Italian threading. No, I don't consider that an ideal strategy, but it amuses me that I know about it. Very unlikely you're going to need to ask for framebuilder recommendations. Breathe normally. ~pb -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question
thanks all for the one-way-or-another reassuring thoughts, experiences and ideas. i agree that the better shop may not be as prepared to do a creative workaround as i want. if it comes to that point, ill have to find a place that knows all the tricks you guys know. joe, im holding out that my experience will mirror your many non destructive experiences. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question
As a professional mechanic, I would say that there are numerous reasons a BB might go in slightly tightly or not as easily as a perfect tool video might show: 1. It is true that not all frames from Rivendell are faced and chased before they are delivered to customers. I had to end up facing and chasing my Quickbeam when I got it. 2. Shimano BB's now ship with a thread locking compound pre-applied to their threads, so there is resistance from that the first time you thread in a BB. 3. Even perfectly faced/chased BB shells and BB's with clean threads will not always thread together 100% smoothly. To a certain extent it depends on the production tolerances of the BB shell and BB cups, how much deformation there was in joining the tubes and BB shell, etc. If anything, I would take comfort in the fact that it took them a while and that they backed it out to check things as they were installing it. They were taking the time to make sure it was done right. The hamfisted mechanic forces things in quickly and doesn't give it a second thought. On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 5:28:03 PM UTC-8, drew beckmeyer wrote: preface: im not much of a mechanic. i can install and adjust most allen wrenchy components, but beyond that, i go to a bike shop. so, i got my hunqapillar frame a few months ago and i got a standard issue shimano bb to have installed. took it to a local used bike shop and had the guys put it in, since i dont have the tool or previous knowledge of how to do this. i watched them and it looked like it was taking some work. hard cranking, working it in and out etc. grease was used, but they didnt chase it. it struck me as not the easiest/somewhat rough install, but id never seen one installed before, so what did i know... bike rides fine. bb is smooth, no sounds, no wiggle, no complaints. Cut to me, now, watching instructional videos. i stumble upon a bb install video and it seems like theirs went in much easier than mine. this makes me nervous. i call a higher end and reputable bike shop and tell them this story. mechanic says it might just be that it wasn't chased. it might be that they stripped the threads and if we take the bottom bracket out, one will never go back in again. i ask if what he would do if he was in this predicament. we can check it out, but i would maybe just ride it until you need a new bottom bracket because if the threads are gone, we cant fix it. obviously, this makes me infinitely more nervous and sick to my stomach. what can you tell me? what would you do? how likely is it that this is a deathblow? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
