[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-25 Thread Garth
Okay, I have some P50 fenders on my Bombadil, and I have a set of
Michelin 2 XC AT tires that would be okay for the rail trail come
snow time, but I wondered about using them with the 50mm fenders,
since the Michelins are more or less the same width. This would only
be for the snowy months, and my goal is only to keep some debris off
me and the bike. There is plenty of fender height clearance available
with the Bombadil, so I'm thinking it would be fine by just raising
the fenders a bit. Sure, the width isn't perfect, but i think it's
close enough. Does this sound OK or is there something I may have
overlooked?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-25 Thread PATRICK MOORE
FWIW, I've used 60 mm fenders on bikes with 60 mm + tires, and while
the sidewalls peak out from underneath the fenders still do a very
good job of keeping the slush and water and mud off me and the bike.
It seems that most of the throw-off is from the center of the tire --
I suppose the centrifugal force of the spinning tire draws the muck
up to the tire's center before chucking it out.


On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:
 Okay, I have some P50 fenders on my Bombadil, and I have a set of
 Michelin 2 XC AT tires that would be okay for the rail trail come
 snow time, but I wondered about using them with the 50mm fenders,
 since the Michelins are more or less the same width. This would only
 be for the snowy months, and my goal is only to keep some debris off
 me and the bike. There is plenty of fender height clearance available
 with the Bombadil, so I'm thinking it would be fine by just raising
 the fenders a bit. Sure, the width isn't perfect, but i think it's
 close enough. Does this sound OK or is there something I may have
 overlooked?

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Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com

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[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-25 Thread Garth
Great Patrick, thanks for the info. Woo-hoo  now for some snow!
Not really though. More like survival. I dream of the warm desert in
winter.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-25 Thread PATRICK MOORE
Tell us how the 50s work in snow. I've got 60s (BAs and Exiwolfs),
nyah, nyah nyah! (But very little, snow.)

On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:
 Great Patrick, thanks for the info. Woo-hoo  now for some snow!
 Not really though. More like survival. I dream of the warm desert in
 winter.

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[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-18 Thread Garth
If I can stick to riding on the flat rails-to-trails and its compacted
crushed stone surface when the snow hits, I think I'll stick to the
Bombadil and some Panaracer Fire Pro 700x45 or maybe Nokian W106. I've
read the studs do nothing for you on a crushed stone surface though,
so the Fire Pro's may be it. I could go a little wider, but I have P50
fenders on, so I may as well use them.

I could also ride my road bike on it with 35mm Nokians or maybe
another cross tire without studs. I don't know, the only way to know
is to try some tires.

Thankfully on the trail I have no worries about the chemicals and
salt. I've manged to keep my '99 pickup truck free of rust by rinsing
it every opportunity I could above freezing. It really does work when
you have to go out in the mess.

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[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-18 Thread Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
I have been riding as much as possible in Minnesota winter going back
to 2004, and I LOVE it! Nokians were my first studded tires, but now
I'm committed to Schwalbe studded models, which are lighter, have more
studs, and seem to roll easier. Winter riding is in many ways
different than summer riding, with a variety of challenges that fair-
weather cyclists never consider, but the result is generally stronger
spring legs and sharper bike handling skills. There is some danger, of
course, both from drivers and simply slipping on icy roads. I crash
several times each winter, generally with little or no injury. We have
great bike trails here, which are typically better maintained than
roads, so winter cycling is a no-brainer for me.

My now-elsewhere Atlantis saw me through a few winters. My 1984
Stumpjumper fixed-gear (now for sale, by the way) was my steed in the
most recent winter or two. This year, my utility winter bike will be
my 1992 Trek 750 fixed-gear and my fun/training bike will be my Surly
Pugstigator (Instigator with Pugsley fork) with the gnarliest
studded tires I can find (probably Schwalbe Ice Spiker Pro). I don't
generally shy away from using nice bikes in winter. A halfway regular
cleaning/lubrication schedule prevents most winter issues. Stainless
and nickel-plated chains seem to do ok without a ton of maintenance,
and Shimano derailleurs tend to work fine as long as they stay
somewhat clean and lubed once in awhile. Shimano freehubs and all
freewheels often seize in subzero temps (lower viscosity grease may
help), but I've never had a problem with Phil freehubs. Generator hubs
and internal gear hubs tend to die prematurely if ridden in snow/slush/
salt slop. Around here, I can generally avoid the sloppiest days,
since most of the time things are frozen solid, and then everything
melts all at once over the course of a few days.

On Oct 16, 12:16 pm, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm wondering what folks in the North do for the Winter.

 I've been riding rollers in the winters, but this year I'd like to get
 out on the road or tail some. I thought of putting together a
 sacrificial beater bike, but when you ride tall/long(62-63cm TT)
 frames, such things are rare to non existent.

 I sort of cringe at the thought of using my Bombadil on our local
 roads as they are always covered in steel mill slag(black steel making
 by-product) and calcium chloride, which is even worse than salt. It
 sticks to everything like glue, and eats steel like mad. Fenders help,
 but it's still a mess.

 I do have a rails to trails Panhandle Trail somewhat nearby, but it
 requires a vehicle to get to. If I got some Nokian studded tires, it
 would be okay. Dead flat, but at least there are no chemicals on the
 trail. I don't mind snow, rain or slush, but I really hate the
 chemicals.

 I have a long term goal to move somewhere I can ride year round
 without ice and snow, but for now here I am.

 What do you folks that live in the cold do for the winter?

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[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-17 Thread David T.
Conditions can change so much from hour to hour in the winter.
Sometimes the snow is hard and iced over in the morning, then by
afternoon it has softened and the going is really slow.

I ride my bike to work in the winter. Last winter it was a combination
of a mountain bike with spiked tires on some days, and my Quickbeam on
others.

I don’t find plain ice to be too much of a challenge, if it is flat.
The bike tends to keep going in a straight line if you let it. I can
ride on flat ice on my Marathon Supremes.

The difficult stuff is snow that has been walked on, and then frozen
over. It is very rough and hard as concrete, the front end bounces
around, you have to wrestle the bike and be ready to hop off at any
time.

Also, heavy soft snow that has been churned up by cars is not much
fun. At first you think you can’t go ten feet, then you go ten feet,
then you start to get a feel for it and eventually you finish the
trip. It demands so much concentration, you have to steer constantly
just to keep the front end going in the right direction.

I think these conditions make you a better cyclist, you learn to steer
by applying some torque to the rear wheel at just the right time. The
experienced mountain bikers would probably feel right at home.

But I do agree with the comments about drivers in winter, you have to
be ultra-defensive, allowing for the fact that cars now can skid
through a turn, and you have to constantly anticipate their potential
path and position yourself out of that zone.  I have learned a
strategy of avoidance in all seasons, I ride on streets that have
hardly any traffic, I avoid confrontations with cars, and try to avoid
doing anything that challenges them or causes them inconvenience. I
even avoid talking about how bad car drivers are, because most of them
are hopeless.

I think the biggest change in winter is the concentration that must be
on the whole time. It is not relaxing, but at the same time it allows
no other thoughts to intrude. When you do get the occasional calm
moment, like riding home in the evening when it is dark and quiet, it
can be really beautiful.

I am putting 40 mm Marathon Winter spiked tires on my Quickbeam this
winter, and fenders, which will let me ride on almost all days if I
want to. I will use the big chainring for mild days, of which there
are a lot here, and the small one for days with heavier snow. I will
post pictures once the bad weather is here.


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[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-17 Thread EricP
Have done beater bikes in the past.  This year am planning on riding
my Surly LHT with 26 wheels in the winter.  Probably also my Salsa
Fargo.  Both will have studded tires.  The Sam Hillborne will be
inside on the trainer.  Will also be my first winter using drop bars.
Previously have only had flat bars.  Hope the change is easy.

Admittedly, am not as big at riding during winter.  Drivers in my area
seem less tolerant in winter than summer.  More close calls.  And am
still too large to ride trails on a non-snowbike.

Cleaning and oiling is more hit and miss.  Although if the weather is
mild, am more likely to do it.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

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[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-16 Thread newenglandbike
I have an old dented-up '88 Trek 400 that has a 60cm top-tube.You
can find some older frames with longer TT's;  they might not fit you
as well as your Bombadil but compared to the agony of winter commuting
in the god forsaken salt-belt, who cares if it fits.

Also, Surly LHT's and cross-checks have 61cm top-tubes in the XL sizes
IIRC.

Plus, you can alway try a longer stem to extend your reach.



On Oct 16, 1:16 pm, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm wondering what folks in the North do for the Winter.

 I've been riding rollers in the winters, but this year I'd like to get
 out on the road or tail some. I thought of putting together a
 sacrificial beater bike, but when you ride tall/long(62-63cm TT)
 frames, such things are rare to non existent.

 I sort of cringe at the thought of using my Bombadil on our local
 roads as they are always covered in steel mill slag(black steel making
 by-product) and calcium chloride, which is even worse than salt. It
 sticks to everything like glue, and eats steel like mad. Fenders help,
 but it's still a mess.

 I do have a rails to trails Panhandle Trail somewhat nearby, but it
 requires a vehicle to get to. If I got some Nokian studded tires, it
 would be okay. Dead flat, but at least there are no chemicals on the
 trail. I don't mind snow, rain or slush, but I really hate the
 chemicals.

 I have a long term goal to move somewhere I can ride year round
 without ice and snow, but for now here I am.

 What do you folks that live in the cold do for the winter?

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[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-16 Thread Steve
I have an old Univega hybrid with fenders and studded Nokian tires:
works great around Ames, IA in the winter and I can cycle in all
weather save deep snow.  I use it more as a utility cycle than a road
bike and would not consider taking my Ram out on salty roads, even if
clear.

Steve

On Oct 16, 12:16 pm, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm wondering what folks in the North do for the Winter.

 I've been riding rollers in the winters, but this year I'd like to get
 out on the road or tail some. I thought of putting together a
 sacrificial beater bike, but when you ride tall/long(62-63cm TT)
 frames, such things are rare to non existent.

 I sort of cringe at the thought of using my Bombadil on our local
 roads as they are always covered in steel mill slag(black steel making
 by-product) and calcium chloride, which is even worse than salt. It
 sticks to everything like glue, and eats steel like mad. Fenders help,
 but it's still a mess.

 I do have a rails to trails Panhandle Trail somewhat nearby, but it
 requires a vehicle to get to. If I got some Nokian studded tires, it
 would be okay. Dead flat, but at least there are no chemicals on the
 trail. I don't mind snow, rain or slush, but I really hate the
 chemicals.

 I have a long term goal to move somewhere I can ride year round
 without ice and snow, but for now here I am.

 What do you folks that live in the cold do for the winter?

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[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-16 Thread Ian Dickson
I'm lucky (er, lucky) to live in a place so cold that there's no
point salting the roads, so I don't worry about corrosion.  I do worry
about sharing the road with drivers when the roads are covered with
ice or snow (from now till sometime in March).  Something about seeing
a car in the ditch every few miles makes me nervous on the bike.

Riding trails in the snow is a blast, though.  It takes a lot more
effort, but it's just ridiculously fun.  Right now I'm doing my snow
riding on my Hunqapillar with 29x2.1 Nokians, but sometime in the next
couple of years I'll get a fat bike.  The design has been refined
beyond the Surly Pugsley (I'm leaning towards one made by Wildfire
Designs: http://www.wildfirecycles.com/fatbikes.html ), but the
largest Pugsley does have a 62.4cm effective top tube.

Driving my bike to a trail was a psychological hurdle for me, but if
it gets you out there, it's not something to feel bad about.

On Oct 16, 9:16 am, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm wondering what folks in the North do for the Winter.

 I've been riding rollers in the winters, but this year I'd like to get
 out on the road or tail some. I thought of putting together a
 sacrificial beater bike, but when you ride tall/long(62-63cm TT)
 frames, such things are rare to non existent.

 I sort of cringe at the thought of using my Bombadil on our local
 roads as they are always covered in steel mill slag(black steel making
 by-product) and calcium chloride, which is even worse than salt. It
 sticks to everything like glue, and eats steel like mad. Fenders help,
 but it's still a mess.

 I do have a rails to trails Panhandle Trail somewhat nearby, but it
 requires a vehicle to get to. If I got some Nokian studded tires, it
 would be okay. Dead flat, but at least there are no chemicals on the
 trail. I don't mind snow, rain or slush, but I really hate the
 chemicals.

 I have a long term goal to move somewhere I can ride year round
 without ice and snow, but for now here I am.

 What do you folks that live in the cold do for the winter?

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[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-16 Thread Tim McNamara


On Oct 16, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Garth wrote:


What do you folks that live in the cold do for the winter?


Stay off the roads.  There's no reason to be unnecessarily  
miserable.  Winter means streets covered in ice and snow, shared  
with drivers who have 1/10 the traction they are used to and are  
still talking on their cell phones, drinking a latte, pissed off,  
late for work or the kid's hockey game, etc.  I have zero need to be  
out there on my bike in that malarkey.  Riding a bike is supposed to  
be enjoyable, IMHO.  Winter road riding is not (to me, YMMV) enjoyable.


Off road has more pleasant options, there are a number of maintained  
trails (e.g., plowed) in Minneapolis and, if the snow isn't too deep,  
there's a lot of riding opportunities on knobbies can be OK.  Some of  
it can be downright lovely.  Listmember Jim Thill has some great  
winter riding photos on Flickr.  For example:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/twowheelflight/407404841/in/ 
set-72157600216293053/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/twowheelflight/407405116/in/ 
set-72157600216293053/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/twowheelflight/388704690/in/ 
set-72157600216293053/


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[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-16 Thread Garth

Yes Tim, That's my conclusion after thinking about it. Our roads are
bad enough, add the hilly terrain, and it makes for some dirty, scary
riding.

The Bombadil and some 2.1 or 45mm Nokian studded tires should be okay
for the flat rails to trails. Maybe even some good knobbies. I have a
set of Michelin XC AT's that I've not tried yet. I guess It will
be time to try them.

 The Pugsly and the big tires are intriguing, so one can get some
float over the snow. The TT length is there, I'm just not sure about
the height of the steerer tube as bar height is the other
consideration. It needs a specially wide crank too with a 100mm BB
shell.

I can live with riding the rollers a few days a week as long as I can
get out a couple of days a week for a longer ride.   I was born/raised
in Minnesota  lots of great memories

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[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-16 Thread stevep33
My fendered 1983 Trek 610 fixie is the winter beater.  It has the rust
to justify why the pretty bikes hibernate.  Boston winters are cold
but not at all unbearable; salty roads and black ice are the worst
parts.

When the Trek expires, I'll probably get a Surly Cross Check with
mildly studded tires like a Nokian A10.  I pretty much avoid the
trails in the winter since it's a slushy muddy mess out there.  Maybe
I'll spring for an internal gear hub

On Oct 16, 6:27 pm, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:
 Yes Tim, That's my conclusion after thinking about it. Our roads are
 bad enough, add the hilly terrain, and it makes for some dirty, scary
 riding.

 The Bombadil and some 2.1 or 45mm Nokian studded tires should be okay
 for the flat rails to trails. Maybe even some good knobbies. I have a
 set of Michelin XC AT's that I've not tried yet. I guess It will
 be time to try them.

  The Pugsly and the big tires are intriguing, so one can get some
 float over the snow. The TT length is there, I'm just not sure about
 the height of the steerer tube as bar height is the other
 consideration. It needs a specially wide crank too with a 100mm BB
 shell.

 I can live with riding the rollers a few days a week as long as I can
 get out a couple of days a week for a longer ride.   I was born/raised
 in Minnesota  lots of great memories

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[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-16 Thread stevep33
Rollers make me crazy after an hour or so.  The weather has to be
rotten to make rollers preferable to riding outside.

The Cross Check or similar (Pake C'mute, Soma DC, etc) is probably a
good bet.  Cheap and well made.  Room for fenders and studs.

On Oct 16, 1:16 pm, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:

 I've been riding rollers in the winters, but this year I'd like to get
 out on the road or tail some. I thought of putting together a
 sacrificial beater bike, but when you ride tall/long(62-63cm TT)
 frames, such things are rare to non existent.

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[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-16 Thread Rick Smith
Everyone's more polite on the road during the winter. Drivers
included.

I've put my Saluki through two Cleveland hellish winters (salt, snow,
grime, and all) and it's made it just fine. Just take care of it after
salty rides (wash down and a dry, then lube the chain) and it will be
fine. The reason I have a Rivendell is so I will be riding the best
ride in the worst conditions.

YMMV.

Rick

On Oct 16, 7:11 pm, stevep33 steve...@gmail.com wrote:
 Rollers make me crazy after an hour or so.  The weather has to be
 rotten to make rollers preferable to riding outside.

 The Cross Check or similar (Pake C'mute, Soma DC, etc) is probably a
 good bet.  Cheap and well made.  Room for fenders and studs.

 On Oct 16, 1:16 pm, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:

  I've been riding rollers in the winters, but this year I'd like to get
  out on the road or tail some. I thought of putting together a
  sacrificial beater bike, but when you ride tall/long(62-63cm TT)
  frames, such things are rare to non existent.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-16 Thread John Blish
Hey Rick,

Just curious.  Not questioning your winter riding at all but where and how
do you wash your bike when it is that cold outside?  I can't seem to find
any place to do that.  Obviously it has to be brought into the house, yes?
I have no door that is close enough to the basement that the bike can make
the trip from outside to the basement where I would wash it without leaving
too much of its crud dripping off along the way.  I have no basement door so
I guess I am out of luck for the most part as far as washing it.  Thanks

John

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Rick Smith com...@yehudamoon.com wrote:

 Everyone's more polite on the road during the winter. Drivers
 included.

 I've put my Saluki through two Cleveland hellish winters (salt, snow,
 grime, and all) and it's made it just fine. Just take care of it after
 salty rides (wash down and a dry, then lube the chain) and it will be
 fine. The reason I have a Rivendell is so I will be riding the best
 ride in the worst conditions.

 YMMV.

 Rick

 On Oct 16, 7:11 pm, stevep33 steve...@gmail.com wrote:
  Rollers make me crazy after an hour or so.  The weather has to be
  rotten to make rollers preferable to riding outside.
 
  The Cross Check or similar (Pake C'mute, Soma DC, etc) is probably a
  good bet.  Cheap and well made.  Room for fenders and studs.
 
  On Oct 16, 1:16 pm, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   I've been riding rollers in the winters, but this year I'd like to get
   out on the road or tail some. I thought of putting together a
   sacrificial beater bike, but when you ride tall/long(62-63cm TT)
   frames, such things are rare to non existent.

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Minneapolis MN USA

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[RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-16 Thread Rick Smith
I fill a plastic bucket full of warmish water (from the tap inside)
and splash it on the bike and its bits outside. Then wheel it into the
garage for drying and lubing. It forms a nice ice puddle in the back
when it's really cold outside. I only do this when I come home on a
wet day or a day when the salt coats the frame. I also Boeshield
throughout the winter and detail clean at least twice.

On Oct 16, 7:41 pm, John Blish jbl...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hey Rick,

 Just curious.  Not questioning your winter riding at all but where and how
 do you wash your bike when it is that cold outside?  I can't seem to find
 any place to do that.  Obviously it has to be brought into the house, yes?
 I have no door that is close enough to the basement that the bike can make
 the trip from outside to the basement where I would wash it without leaving
 too much of its crud dripping off along the way.  I have no basement door so
 I guess I am out of luck for the most part as far as washing it.  Thanks

 John



 On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Rick Smith com...@yehudamoon.com wrote:
  Everyone's more polite on the road during the winter. Drivers
  included.

  I've put my Saluki through two Cleveland hellish winters (salt, snow,
  grime, and all) and it's made it just fine. Just take care of it after
  salty rides (wash down and a dry, then lube the chain) and it will be
  fine. The reason I have a Rivendell is so I will be riding the best
  ride in the worst conditions.

  YMMV.

  Rick

  On Oct 16, 7:11 pm, stevep33 steve...@gmail.com wrote:
   Rollers make me crazy after an hour or so.  The weather has to be
   rotten to make rollers preferable to riding outside.

   The Cross Check or similar (Pake C'mute, Soma DC, etc) is probably a
   good bet.  Cheap and well made.  Room for fenders and studs.

   On Oct 16, 1:16 pm, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:

I've been riding rollers in the winters, but this year I'd like to get
out on the road or tail some. I thought of putting together a
sacrificial beater bike, but when you ride tall/long(62-63cm TT)
frames, such things are rare to non existent.

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 --
 John Blish
 Minneapolis MN USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cycling in Northern Winters

2010-10-16 Thread John Blish
Thanks.  I look forward to trying that.  You also avoid bringing the cold
bike into the warm house and the condensation that can cause.

Good idea.  Sounds like with your method perfection is not really the goal
but just giving as much help as you can give it.  I like it.

John

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 6:50 PM, Rick Smith com...@yehudamoon.com wrote:

 I fill a plastic bucket full of warmish water (from the tap inside)
 and splash it on the bike and its bits outside. Then wheel it into the
 garage for drying and lubing. It forms a nice ice puddle in the back
 when it's really cold outside. I only do this when I come home on a
 wet day or a day when the salt coats the frame. I also Boeshield
 throughout the winter and detail clean at least twice.

 On Oct 16, 7:41 pm, John Blish jbl...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hey Rick,
 
  Just curious.  Not questioning your winter riding at all but where and
 how
  do you wash your bike when it is that cold outside?  I can't seem to find
  any place to do that.  Obviously it has to be brought into the house,
 yes?
  I have no door that is close enough to the basement that the bike can
 make
  the trip from outside to the basement where I would wash it without
 leaving
  too much of its crud dripping off along the way.  I have no basement door
 so
  I guess I am out of luck for the most part as far as washing it.  Thanks
 
  John
 
 
 
  On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Rick Smith com...@yehudamoon.com
 wrote:
   Everyone's more polite on the road during the winter. Drivers
   included.
 
   I've put my Saluki through two Cleveland hellish winters (salt, snow,
   grime, and all) and it's made it just fine. Just take care of it after
   salty rides (wash down and a dry, then lube the chain) and it will be
   fine. The reason I have a Rivendell is so I will be riding the best
   ride in the worst conditions.
 
   YMMV.
 
   Rick
 
   On Oct 16, 7:11 pm, stevep33 steve...@gmail.com wrote:
Rollers make me crazy after an hour or so.  The weather has to be
rotten to make rollers preferable to riding outside.
 
The Cross Check or similar (Pake C'mute, Soma DC, etc) is probably a
good bet.  Cheap and well made.  Room for fenders and studs.
 
On Oct 16, 1:16 pm, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I've been riding rollers in the winters, but this year I'd like to
 get
 out on the road or tail some. I thought of putting together a
 sacrificial beater bike, but when you ride tall/long(62-63cm TT)
 frames, such things are rare to non existent.
 
   --
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 Groups
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 .
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   .
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  --
  John Blish
  Minneapolis MN USA

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-- 
John Blish
Minneapolis MN USA

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