Re: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples?
I think we've missed something important in this discussion. Deborah brought up other works by Snoopy, and, as Adam quotes, we are to look for preferred access points in resources associated with the person. There is a work called The wit and wisdom of Snoopy. (OCLC #6910980). I assume this might count as a resource associated with the person. That said, it seems fair to consider her concerns that Snoopy is not always presented as a doctor, and should not be entered as such. snip 9.2.2.2 Determine the preferred name for a person from the following sources (in order of preference): a) the preferred sources of information (see 2.2.2 rdalink) in resources associated with the person snip It was very instructive to have Adam's careful walk-through of the process of preferred access point choice with all its delightful wrinkles. This is where understanding comes from. -- Adger Williams Colgate University Library 315-228-7310 awilli...@colgate.edu
Re: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples?
Others have made many points in this discussion that I agree with, which I'd just like to summarize and reiterate; my opinion that the heading should be constructed as simply Snoopy remains unchanged. If one consults the OCLC bib file and other reference resources for the predominant form of name for Snoopy, the unadorned name clearly wins. Therefore, based on RDA 9.2.2.2a/c, the preferred form of the name should be Snoopy, without any mention of doctorness. As Mr. Creider has stated: The existence of the title 'Dr.' does not, by itself, imply two distinct identities; we've certainly seen resources before where name forms have varied, and included professional criteria on only some preferred sources of information. Unless one assumes that Dr. Snoopy is somehow different from plain Snoopy, and would advocate a series of maybe linked authorities for each differing guise of a character. Mr. Schouten, for example, claims that: even fictional characters are entitled to their own Personae. But I would argue against this route for multiple reasons. Fictitious character cannot truly have professions, so they aren't really different persons despite the guise; moreover, because of their fluid, unreal nature, they can have a plethora of possible guises, much more so than a real person, which would make creating authorities a nightmare. Do we really want to go down the route of providing linked (and constantly changing) authorities for characters like superheroes, who change aliases depending on storyline (like Spider Man, who for a brief period was Ben Reilly instead of Peter Parker--until it was determined that Ben Reilly was a clone, who is now the Scarlet Spider in a different series), or include personae created in one-off graphic novels exploring aspects of a character but intended to be part of a character's continuity? I believe that insisting on following real person rules too strictly for fictitious characters, without allowing common sense to influence the decision about headings, does a disservice to users, who would certainly not expect, need, or desire, to find information about Snoopy under Snoopy, Dr. Particularly since LC may void subject headings in favor of created name headings for fictitious characters, I believe it behooves catalogers to be conservative, and general, in their creation of such headings. It does not benefit access to force users to use multiple/related searches, with the dreaded attendant mouse clicks, to find everything about Snoopy under his supposed different personae. As Mr. Weinheimer has pointed out, headings and changes to headings should be made only because it has been demonstrated that these are the kinds of changes that will help our patrons find the materials they need. For all the reasons above, I still believe that the heading example should be changed to simply Snoopy, and I will be forwarding my requests to the appropriate channels. Deborah Tomaras, NACO Coordinator Librarian II Western European Languages Team New York Public Library Library Services Center 31-11 Thomson Ave. Long Island City, N.Y. 11101 (917) 229-9561 dtoma...@nypl.org Disclaimer: Alas, my ideas are merely my own, and not indicative of New York Public Library policy.
Re: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples?
Sorry, guys; I just can't resist: http://www.aardvarknet.info/access/number45/monthnews.cfm?monthnews=01 Nannette Naught nnau...@imteaminc.com 4/26/2011 4:45 PM Okay, are you laughing yet? -Original Message- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Deborah Tomares Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 12:53 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples? I'm wondering where to send questions about RDA examples that I believe need changing. Under 19.2.1.3 (Recording Creators), in the Examples of Two or More Persons, Families, or Corporate Bodies Responsible for the Creation of the Work Performing Different Roles we find Snoopy, Dr. listed as the author of a work, with Charles Schulz as the illustrator. The Snoopy choice is suspect to me for various reasons. Leaving aside the philosophical problems of creating person entries for fictitious characters, my problems are twofold. First, I've read that Dr. will no longer be allowed, under RDA, to disambiguate headings. So perhaps the heading should be Snoopy, Doctor. Except that--as a second consideration--if we're going to go ahead and create a record for Snoopy, wouldn't it make more sense to create a generic one? That way, if we have a military manual by Captain Snoopy later, or a philosophical treatise by Professor Snoopy, we won't need to create new Snoopy headings, or be forced to use the Dr. one everywhere. Particularly since a fictitious character can't actually BE a doctor, etc., it seems foolish to qualify things this way. And if these will be replacing subject headings, as the LCPS for RDA 9.0 seems to imply, it would behoove us to make the headings as generic as possible, so that books about Snoopy don't have to be about Snoopy, Dr. So, I would suggest the entry by changed to simply Snoopy, as I doubt there is an authority conflict. Who do I need to send my arguments to? Thanks in advance for information and help, or for alternate opinions if there are any. Deborah Tomaras, NACO Coordinator Librarian II Western European Languages Team New York Public Library Library Services Center 31-11 Thomson Ave. Long Island City, N.Y. 11101 (917) 229-9561 dtoma...@nypl.org Disclaimer: Alas, my ideas are merely my own, and not indicative of New York Public Library policy., ___ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message from Hamilton East Public Library (including all attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipients and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, copying or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Updated April 14, 2011
Re: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples?
Dear Adam, Thank you for showing you the thought process that we might follow in trying to come to a determination on such an access point. This is very helpful! Julie On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Adam L. Schiff asch...@u.washington.eduwrote: The resource being cataloging has this manifestation: Dr. Snoopy's advice to pet owners / by Dr. Snoopy ; illustrations by Charles M. Schulz. The author of it is clearly stated in both the title and the statement of responsibility as Dr. Snoopy. This is the usage that we have to work with. In RDA, it matters not that Dr. Snoopy is fictitious: 9.0 Purpose and scope. Persons include fictitious entities. Given the usage that we have, we then apply the instructions in RDA. 9.2.2.1 The preferred name for the person is the name or form of name chosen as the basis for the authorized access point representing that person. 9.2.2.2 Determine the preferred name for a person from the following sources (in order of preference): a) the preferred sources of information (see 2.2.2 rdalink) in resources associated with the person b) other formal statements appearing in resources associated with the person c) other sources (including reference sources). 9.2.2.3 In general, choose the name by which the person is commonly known as the preferred name for that person. The name chosen may be the persons real name, pseudonym, title of nobility, nickname, initials, or other appellation. The appellation for this person is Dr. Snoopy. Now you have to figure out which of the following instructions in RDA apply, 9.2.2.9.3, 9.2.2.18, 9.2.2.22, or 9.2.2.23: 9.2.2.9.3 Persons Known by a Surname Only If the name by which a person is known consists of a surname only, treat the word or phrase associated with the name in resources associated with the person or in reference sources as an integral part of the name. Deidier, abbe Read, Miss Seuss, Dr. Nichols, Grandma 9.2.2.18 General Guidelines on Recording Names Containing Neither a Surname nor a Title of Nobility Record a name that does not include a surname and that is borne by a person who is not identified by a title of nobility applying the general guidelines on recording names given under 8.5. Charles Nelly Riverbend Record as the first element the part of the name under which the person is listed in reference sources. In case of doubt, record the last part of the name as the first element, applying the instructions given under 9.2.2.9.2. Include as an integral part of the name any words or phrases denoting place of origin, domicile, occupation, or other characteristics that are commonly associated with the name in resources associated with the person or in reference sources. Precede such words or phrases by a comma. Paul, the Deacon Eric, the Red Rafa, el Tuerto Judah, ha-Levi Chayim, the Priest, of Hebron Iolo, Goch Feofan, Grek 9.2.2.22 General Guidelines on Recording Names Consisting of a Phrase Record a name consisting of: a) a phrase or appellation that does not contain a forename or b) a phrase that consists of a forename or forenames preceded by words other than a term of address or a title of position or office applying the general guidelines on recording names given under 8.5. Record the name in direct order. Dr. X Mother Hen Every Other Dad Sister Friend Poor Old No. 3 Buckskin Bill Boy George Little Richard Miss Piggy Happy Harry Special Ed D.J. Jazzy Jeff 9.2.2.23 Phrase Consisting of a Forename or Forenames Preceded by a Term of Address, Etc. Record a phrase consisting of a forename preceded by a term of address (e.g., a word indicating relationship) or a title of position or office (e.g., a professional appellation) applying the general guidelines on recording names given under 8.5. Record the forename as the first element. Record words or phrases denoting place of origin, domicile, occupation, or other characteristics that are commonly associated with the name applying the instructions given under 9.2.2.18. Jemima, Aunt Claire, Tante Sam, Cousin Fez, Uncle Robert, Chef Vittoria, Signora I believe that Snoopy is a forename rather than a surname. I would assert that Dr. is a term of address (specifically, a professional title).* Therefore, I believe that 9.2.2.22b) is excluded and that 9.2.2.23 applies and the name would be recorded as Snoopy, Dr. (authorized access point in MARC 21: 100 0_ $a Snoopy, $c Dr.). The abbreviated form is used because that is what the person uses in his name. * The American system of address is generally described as a choice between first names and Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms. with last names. In a job situation,
[RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples?
I'm wondering where to send questions about RDA examples that I believe need changing. Under 19.2.1.3 (Recording Creators), in the Examples of Two or More Persons, Families, or Corporate Bodies Responsible for the Creation of the Work Performing Different Roles we find Snoopy, Dr. listed as the author of a work, with Charles Schulz as the illustrator. The Snoopy choice is suspect to me for various reasons. Leaving aside the philosophical problems of creating person entries for fictitious characters, my problems are twofold. First, I've read that Dr. will no longer be allowed, under RDA, to disambiguate headings. So perhaps the heading should be Snoopy, Doctor. Except that--as a second consideration--if we're going to go ahead and create a record for Snoopy, wouldn't it make more sense to create a generic one? That way, if we have a military manual by Captain Snoopy later, or a philosophical treatise by Professor Snoopy, we won't need to create new Snoopy headings, or be forced to use the Dr. one everywhere. Particularly since a fictitious character can't actually BE a doctor, etc., it seems foolish to qualify things this way. And if these will be replacing subject headings, as the LCPS for RDA 9.0 seems to imply, it would behoove us to make the headings as generic as possible, so that books about Snoopy don't have to be about Snoopy, Dr. So, I would suggest the entry by changed to simply Snoopy, as I doubt there is an authority conflict. Who do I need to send my arguments to? Thanks in advance for information and help, or for alternate opinions if there are any. Deborah Tomaras, NACO Coordinator Librarian II Western European Languages Team New York Public Library Library Services Center 31-11 Thomson Ave. Long Island City, N.Y. 11101 (917) 229-9561 dtoma...@nypl.org Disclaimer: Alas, my ideas are merely my own, and not indicative of New York Public Library policy.,
Re: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples?
The resource being cataloging has this manifestation: Dr. Snoopy's advice to pet owners / by Dr. Snoopy ; illustrations by Charles M. Schulz. The author of it is clearly stated in both the title and the statement of responsibility as Dr. Snoopy. This is the usage that we have to work with. In RDA, it matters not that Dr. Snoopy is fictitious: 9.0 Purpose and scope. Persons include fictitious entities. Given the usage that we have, we then apply the instructions in RDA. 9.2.2.1 The preferred name for the person is the name or form of name chosen as the basis for the authorized access point representing that person. 9.2.2.2 Determine the preferred name for a person from the following sources (in order of preference): a) the preferred sources of information (see 2.2.2 rdalink) in resources associated with the person b) other formal statements appearing in resources associated with the person c) other sources (including reference sources). 9.2.2.3 In general, choose the name by which the person is commonly known as the preferred name for that person. The name chosen may be the persons real name, pseudonym, title of nobility, nickname, initials, or other appellation. The appellation for this person is Dr. Snoopy. Now you have to figure out which of the following instructions in RDA apply, 9.2.2.9.3, 9.2.2.18, 9.2.2.22, or 9.2.2.23: 9.2.2.9.3 Persons Known by a Surname Only If the name by which a person is known consists of a surname only, treat the word or phrase associated with the name in resources associated with the person or in reference sources as an integral part of the name. Deidier, abbe Read, Miss Seuss, Dr. Nichols, Grandma 9.2.2.18 General Guidelines on Recording Names Containing Neither a Surname nor a Title of Nobility Record a name that does not include a surname and that is borne by a person who is not identified by a title of nobility applying the general guidelines on recording names given under 8.5. Charles Nelly Riverbend Record as the first element the part of the name under which the person is listed in reference sources. In case of doubt, record the last part of the name as the first element, applying the instructions given under 9.2.2.9.2. Include as an integral part of the name any words or phrases denoting place of origin, domicile, occupation, or other characteristics that are commonly associated with the name in resources associated with the person or in reference sources. Precede such words or phrases by a comma. Paul, the Deacon Eric, the Red Rafa, el Tuerto Judah, ha-Levi Chayim, the Priest, of Hebron Iolo, Goch Feofan, Grek 9.2.2.22 General Guidelines on Recording Names Consisting of a Phrase Record a name consisting of: a) a phrase or appellation that does not contain a forename or b) a phrase that consists of a forename or forenames preceded by words other than a term of address or a title of position or office applying the general guidelines on recording names given under 8.5. Record the name in direct order. Dr. X Mother Hen Every Other Dad Sister Friend Poor Old No. 3 Buckskin Bill Boy George Little Richard Miss Piggy Happy Harry Special Ed D.J. Jazzy Jeff 9.2.2.23 Phrase Consisting of a Forename or Forenames Preceded by a Term of Address, Etc. Record a phrase consisting of a forename preceded by a term of address (e.g., a word indicating relationship) or a title of position or office (e.g., a professional appellation) applying the general guidelines on recording names given under 8.5. Record the forename as the first element. Record words or phrases denoting place of origin, domicile, occupation, or other characteristics that are commonly associated with the name applying the instructions given under 9.2.2.18. Jemima, Aunt Claire, Tante Sam, Cousin Fez, Uncle Robert, Chef Vittoria, Signora I believe that Snoopy is a forename rather than a surname. I would assert that Dr. is a term of address (specifically, a professional title).* Therefore, I believe that 9.2.2.22b) is excluded and that 9.2.2.23 applies and the name would be recorded as Snoopy, Dr. (authorized access point in MARC 21: 100 0_ $a Snoopy, $c Dr.). The abbreviated form is used because that is what the person uses in his name. * The American system of address is generally described as a choice between first names and Mr./Mrs./Miss/Ms. with last names. In a job situation, occupational titles such as doctor and professor, are also possible. -- Appropriateness in Terms of Address, http://exchanges.state.gov/media/oelp/teaching-pragmatics/takenoya-revised.pdf ^^ Adam L. Schiff Principal Cataloger
Re: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples?
Reminder of one channel of communication noted several times in various lists since last October: Questions about RDA (e.g., assumptions, decisions, clarifications, wording, examples) can be sent to the lchelp4...@loc.gov account. LC shares comments, questions, suggestions, corrections, etc., as appropriate with other members of the Joint Steering Committee, ALA Publishing, etc. Judy Kuhagen Policy and Standards Division Library of Congress Washington, D.C. -Original Message- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Mike Tribby Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 5:07 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples? Okay, are you laughing yet? Yes, yes I am. And not just about the detailed procedure from RDA being applied to a cartoon dog. I think that Snoopy, like Geronimo Stilton, Socks Clinton, and other non-human authors should be traced. And Mr. Schiff's path through the various instructions is, well, instructive. But I believe the original question was where to send questions about RDA examples that the person posting the question believes need changing. No answer on that specific question yet, but it would seem from a few recent postings in this august forum that questions about the assumptions and decisions that lie behind specifics of RDA are no longer to be questioned. At least here. Mike Tribby Senior Cataloger Quality Books Inc. The Best of America's Independent Presses mailto:mike.tri...@quality-books.com -Original Message- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Nannette Naught Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 3:46 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples? Okay, are you laughing yet? -Original Message- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Deborah Tomares Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 12:53 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples? I'm wondering where to send questions about RDA examples that I believe need changing. Under 19.2.1.3 (Recording Creators), in the Examples of Two or More Persons, Families, or Corporate Bodies Responsible for the Creation of the Work Performing Different Roles we find Snoopy, Dr. listed as the author of a work, with Charles Schulz as the illustrator. The Snoopy choice is suspect to me for various reasons. Leaving aside the philosophical problems of creating person entries for fictitious characters, my problems are twofold. First, I've read that Dr. will no longer be allowed, under RDA, to disambiguate headings. So perhaps the heading should be Snoopy, Doctor. Except that--as a second consideration--if we're going to go ahead and create a record for Snoopy, wouldn't it make more sense to create a generic one? That way, if we have a military manual by Captain Snoopy later, or a philosophical treatise by Professor Snoopy, we won't need to create new Snoopy headings, or be forced to use the Dr. one everywhere. Particularly since a fictitious character can't actually BE a doctor, etc., it seems foolish to qualify things this way. And if these will be replacing subject headings, as the LCPS for RDA 9.0 seems to imply, it would behoove us to make the headings as generic as possible, so that books about Snoopy don't have to be about Snoopy, Dr. So, I would suggest the entry by changed to simply Snoopy, as I doubt there is an authority conflict. Who do I need to send my arguments to? Thanks in advance for information and help, or for alternate opinions if there are any. Deborah Tomaras, NACO Coordinator Librarian II Western European Languages Team New York Public Library Library Services Center 31-11 Thomson Ave. Long Island City, N.Y. 11101 (917) 229-9561 dtoma...@nypl.org Disclaimer: Alas, my ideas are merely my own, and not indicative of New York Public Library policy., No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3598 - Release Date: 04/26/11 06:34:00
Re: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples?
On 4/26/2011 5:06 PM, Mike Tribby wrote: But I believe the original question was where to send questions about RDA examples that the person posting the question believes need changing. Proposal to revise RDA should be directed to the appropriate RDA author body. These are listed on the RDA website at: http://www.rda-jsc.org/revision.html Within the United States, proposals for revision may be directed to any member of the Committee on Cataloging: Description and Access, listed at: http://www.libraries.psu.edu/tas/jca/ccda/roster.html -- or to the ALA Representative to the JSC (see below). The JSC is willing to fast-track changes to examples that do not properly illustrate the instructions or contain some other error. Please send those to me, and I will forward them immediately. The example cited, however -- as Adam has shown -- does illustrate the instructions. Therefore, a proposal to change those instructions would need to be made, presenting a convincing case that the assumptions and decisions behind those instructions are invalid. The JSC is willing to consider such proposals and to change the instructions if we agree that a convincing case has been made. John Attig ALA Representative to the JSC jx...@psu.edu
Re: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples?
Deborah Tomares dtoma...@nypl.org wrote: First, I've read that Dr. will no longer be allowed, under RDA, to disambiguate headings. So perhaps the heading should be Snoopy, Doctor. Just commenting on this bit. Distinguishing terms for occupation and field of activity that are added to personal names are enclosed in parentheses according to RDA E.1.2.2. See also 9.19.1.6-9.19.1.7. -- Mark K. Ehlert Minitex Coordinator University of Minnesota Bibliographic Technical 15 Andersen Library Services (BATS) Unit 222 21st Avenue South Phone: 612-624-0805 Minneapolis, MN 55455-0439 http://www.minitex.umn.edu/
Re: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples?
Adam Schiff quoted examples:
Read, Miss
Seuss, Dr.
and
Dr. X
Miss Piggy
The distinctions escape me, as it would most patrons I expect. Why is
Read any more a surname than Piggy? And which would Snoopy be?
Or Seuss more than X?
Malcolm X is intered under X as surname:
100 1_ |a X, Malcolm, |d 1925-1965.
Don't defend this by saying it's no worse than AACR2. RDA is supposed to
be *better* than AACR2.
While cross references might get one from one to the other in the
catalogue, the form used does determine Cutter.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples?
Collette, - Jeanette Elsner will be back next Tuesday. I have left a note
for her to check the latest Books 24 x 7 package. There is a chance it or
the later edition will be there. So hold those Tenterfield horses.
Glad you had a great break. I did a lot of cooking. A vegetarian in the
family opens up a whole new wonderland of ingredients and recipes. Lemon
coconut dahl was a great hit!
Pamela Tonkin
Information Services (Scholarly Information and Research)
Griffith University
Nathan Campus, Queensland, 4411
p.ton...@griffith.edu.au
Phone: +61 (07) 3735 6418
PRIVILEGED - PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL
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From:
J. McRee Elrod m...@slc.bc.ca
To:
RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Date:
27/04/2011 12:43 PM
Subject:
Re: [RDA-L] Where to Direct Questions about RDA Examples?
Adam Schiff quoted examples:
Read, Miss
Seuss, Dr.
and
Dr. X
Miss Piggy
The distinctions escape me, as it would most patrons I expect. Why is
Read any more a surname than Piggy? And which would Snoopy be?
Or Seuss more than X?
Malcolm X is intered under X as surname:
100 1_ |a X, Malcolm, |d 1925-1965.
Don't defend this by saying it's no worse than AACR2. RDA is supposed to
be *better* than AACR2.
While cross references might get one from one to the other in the
catalogue, the form used does determine Cutter.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
