Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

[Steve Higgins]

Hey Guys you do have some great points.Here are my comments.

*Taking Readings while EQ'ing. *

Yes, this is not fun, and one of the big reasons I'm not a big fan of
EQ'ing at all.   As a matter of fact, I tell people all the time if you
properly charge your battery bank on a regular basis, you should NEVER have
to EQ.   Last fall I retired a battery bank that was 8 S530's that were
purchased in late 2002... This battery bank had been EQ'ed a total of two
times, over the years and still had SG readings that were between 1.255 and
1.275.The capacity of the battery bank had fallen off over the past few
years and was estimated to be around 60%.

When you are EQing you should open all the doors and windows and get as
much ventilation as possible.   Even so, the Hydrogen-Sulfide case can give
you headaches and other symptoms,  In the last few years I have resulted
using a full-face respirator mask when I work on battery banks as I'm too
old and tired to deal with the symptoms of hydrogen gas inhalation.   Even
so, when you are EQ'ing you are often only checking the cells that you are
attempting to balance, you are not checking the entire bank while under the
EQ process.   Normally this is only 3-4 cells at the most.

When taking readings, I use a standard refractometer that is about 23 years
old at this point.  To collect the sample,  I use a glass 8-inch stir stick
(Chemistry Stir Stick) to take the drop of electrolyte out of the battery
and place it on the slide of the refractometer read it, wipe it with a
microfiber towel, and move on to the next cell. I can read a string of
24 cells in less than 9 mins if I'm taking my time, (I have done it in less
than 7 mins).  and I use an mp3 recorder or the audio recording function of
my phone to record the sg readings.

*Acid Stratification. *

Stratification is an issue for some batteries not all.  Rolls batteries are
going to gas more and at a lower point than many of the batteries on the
market today.  Yes, we use more water, the reason for this is we use over
4.25% Antimony in our lead mix, most of our competition is around 1%.
The reason for this is the higher antimony content lowers the gassing
voltage.   This will help mix the battery electrolyte, even when in float.
Some companies even have tubes installed so you can inject air into them to
help them mix.With this higher antimony content, I have only ever seen
a Rolls Battery stratify when they sit in a warehouse for a long period of
time.  In today's world with the lead times from most battery
manufacturers, this issue has pretty much gone away.

Stratification can be an issue, but once you put the battery under a
nominal Bulk/Absorb Cycle this should be enough to mix the
electrolyte enough to get a consistent reading from a good quality
hydrometer or refractometer.  Try to keep your customers away from those EZ
Red hydrometers, I like the refractometer because you can calibrate them
and cleaning is easy.

*Water Levels and Fill Levels*

William, Yes and Yes... Water levels and, when you check the SG's will
affect your readings.

When I come to the battery room I will often spot check SG's before I add
water and go thru the charging process, The after a charge I do a full
recoding after the charge just before you top off.

If you add enough to make sure you don't run them dry go thru a charging/EQ
process and then add the 1-2 cups to finish the top off after you are
finished isn't going to affect the SG's that much, maybe .0005 to .0010
points at the most.

Now when you do EQ you definitely want to loosen the 1/4 turn bayonet caps,
or flip caps.  You want to do this because if you do get an ignition event
and it's likely possible that you will at some point have this happen.
The fumes you smell is hydrogen sulfide.   The hydrogen gas fumes are very
flammable, almost as flammable as gasoline fumes.So if you do have an
ignition event you want the caps loose, you don't want to take them fully
off, unless they are hydrocaps which will melt.   The reason for this is
compression!

If you hold a firecracker in your open palm and light it what happens?
You get 2nd-3rd degree burns and you may keep all your fingers.

If you hold that same firecracker in a closed fist, what happens?   It's a
good chance you are going to lose fingers.

When you get an ignition event on a battery, those fumes ignite and the
ignited fumes trace back the source of those fumes.if the cap is in
place there is enough compression to blow the top off the battery, if the
cap is loose then it'll just flame out.  While this flame out even is
scary, loud, and may singe a few hairs the system should be okay with very
little damage.






 
 
 
 
 

[RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues

[Ben's Solar and Battery]

Jay,
That was probably me.  I did try it again (on camera again) and it started
the compressor 3 times in a row.  There could have been an unbalanced load
on 1 leg, but I'm not sure.  Sol-Ark says they've mostly fixed this issue,
so I'll be doing a firmware update and trying the test again.  I'll shut
the rest of the house down this time and see what happens.  I have 2 of
them at off grid houses presently with no issues whatsoever.

Ben


To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues
Message-ID: <5f2998be-9e10-4d7d-9325-92f5b439a...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can?t run a 15 amp 120v air
compressor

I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed
installer who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and
specifically mentioned that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw
inverter down. He didn?t mention if there is a fix coming.

I guess I?ll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out.

Jay

Peltz power.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

[Dana Orzel]

My recommendation on the HUPS that I install are:

 

Use a refractometer!

 

Check your SG, & compare all cells & if highest to lowest – If 0.02 or less no 
need to EQ.

 If 0.04 or greater time to EQ.

I water every 8 weeks with a pump watering system, winter about 2-3 gallons per 
 2 months summer 4-4.5 gallons per 2 months.

 

IMHO – EQ is rough on most batteries & this recommendation from NWES  almost 
30+ years ago has served me very well.

 

I have many clients that have gotten 23+ years on their HUPS. I use them & I 
have only had to EQ once a year for 4years.

2500 AHR @48 VDC on 6000 watts tracked in a narrow N/S canyon, 4 hours of 
direct sun Nov 25-Jan 25.

 

 

Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc. 

C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com

Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374

NABCEP # 051112-136   www.solarwork.com 
 

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  

P Please consider the environment before printing this email.

 

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Dave 
Angelini Offgrid Solar
Sent: Tuesday, February 9, 2021 1:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

 

A main point to the choir is that each manufacturer has their own 
recommendations. The US battery I often use has monthly EQ.

Looking at 30 years of batteries here and the Offgrid manufactures seem to 
change what they like over time. Sometimes it is so complicated that I can't 
expect my client to succeed. I dumb it down,  just the basics, and they still 
get 10 years or more on a set of L16's.
 
I think it is because battery companies are in the business of selling 
batteries. I appreciate that also! 
 
This is not rocket science though, If I had them do all of the things on that 
list, well, they would not listen to me on the basics.
 
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net  
text 209 813 0060
 
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:29:12 -0500, Ray mailto:r...@solarray.com> > wrote:
> Dave makes a good point; I also don't recommend opening the cells while 
> they are charging at a high rate.   I like to get SG readings with the 
> electrolyte being mixed by bubbling, but I turn off the charging 
> sources, and let it settle down for a few minutes, before opening caps.
> 
> And I second Steve's comments: over charging and over filling the cells 
> can both lead to more problems than EQing might solve.
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> 
> On 2/9/21 10:35 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>> That does not sound  best to me. I get the point but there are much
>> better
>> ways. Not good for you to be close around a bank in EQ. If you are
>> checking
>> water level every month the level should not be really low. You do this
>> in
>> case you miss a cell a month back! You should be counting as the water
>> goes
>> in to see if you have put about the same amount in. I have never noticed
>> any advantage to mixing the cells after watering. They will get mixed the
>> next day. If this concerned you, you could run a 30 minute absorb after
>> watering.
>> 
>> I like to EQ before watering so my customer does not over fill and start
>> the corrosion process. Just open all of the cells and look before they
>> EQ.
>> 
>> I also like to mark 2 of the lower SG cells and 2 of the good ones. This
>> makes it easier for my clients to check the bank. Once every summer or 2
>> they need to look at all of the cells. Summer is best because it is the
>> time when you can do long corrective EQ's if you find trouble.
>> 
>> 
>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net  
>> text 209 813 0060
>> 
>> On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 05:36:39 -0800, Mark Frye >  >
>> wrote:
>>> My Rolls manual says:
>>> 
>>> "It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the
>>> equalization. This is to
>>> assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte."
>>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

[Steve Higgins]

Good morning everyone.

The reason you don't fill to full before you EQ is you want to prevent
water loss due to pressure.During the EQ process, there is lots of
gassing and pressure, part of the reason you should loosen the 1/4 bayonet
caps on the tops of the battery   If the water level is filled to the top
level that you should normally fill to you could potentially push
electrolyte out of the battery and over time this loss of electrolyte will
also dilute your electrolyte and this will cause a mess but will also
cause the losses of sulfur, and you will eventually lose capacity.
Unfortutniloy this is very common because many people overfill their
batteries.

You can tell this by using a voltmeter.   Place the negative lead on the
negative of the battery, and the positive lead on the top plastic of the
battery, if you get voltage, someone has overfilled and spilled acid.   You
need to keep this in mind as you will no longer get max SG out of the
battery if the client has been overfilling for a long time.

Many are still EQ'ing too much,   Equalizing is bad for a healthy battery
bank,   There are really only two reasons to EQ,

1.  When SG's are more than .025 to .030 points indifference.
2.  When the Customers Array can only produce less than 5% of the total max
current of the battery bank.

What causes the sg indifference is chronic undercharging, if the client got
the battery bank to a full charge 2-3 times a week you should never have to
Eq a battery bank!

Also, you should run the system thru a full Bulk/Absorb cycle before you
trigger the EQ.

So you goto a site to do some maintenance... you check sg's and there
is indifference between cells.

With this, you know you *may* have to EQ. Below are not all the steps
you would take for this process... See here:
http://support.rollsbattery.com/a/solutions/articles/430  for more detail.

1.  Check SG's
2.  Check and retorque connections.   Loosen the connection and retorque,
DO NOT "TUG TEST" if already welded you won't detect a loose connection.
3.  Check Charging settings, if your SG's are low or have large differences
it's a good chance this is a symptom of chronic undercharging and you may
need to make corrections or adjustments to settings.   Often you have to be
more aggressive in the winter and less aggressive in the summer.
4.  Fill water to about an inch lower than the bottom of the fill tube, you
don't want to fully top off the battery.   This is typically 1/2 to a full
inch below where you would normally fill them to.
5.  Start a Full Bulk/Absorb cycle using the Generator/Grid
6.  At the completion of the Absorb Cycle, Recheck SG's if you still have
an SG indifference, then loosen the fill caps on all the batteries, you
don't need to remove them unless they are hydrocaps.
7. Start EQ.
8  Monitor SG's every 30-60 mins, after target cells stop rising for more
than 60 mins the EQ isn't doing much good so you want to terminate the EQ
at that time.  EQ time is generally 1/2 to 2/3rd of the calculated absorb
timers.
9  If imbalance was corrected, then move on but you should consider raising
Absorb timers or lowering End amps settings as again the need for EQ is due
to chronic undercharging,  Have the discussion with the customer that the
battery bank is starting to show signs of sulfation and they need to make
certain the SG's get to recommended levels at least once if not two or
three times a week to prevent sulfation.

If the Imbalance was not corrected then the customer is having charging
problems, this time of year this is common because many don't like to hear
the sound or expense of that generator.  If this is the case have the
customer run the generator every morning for 2-4 hours before the sun hits
the panels.   When the sun hits the panels let the panels finish the absorb
charge.Have the customer spot check the lower cells every week.   If
the cells do not recover after 1-2 weeks the try another EQ.  Unless the
battery bank is in really bad shape do not EQ back to back,   This is just
going to cook the battery bank and kill them.

As for a filling device, stay away from those auto shut off (blue) bottles,
they are designed for golf cart batteries and often overfill. You can
go out and by a filling station from Philadelphia scientific, but they are
costly between $600 and $2,000.

https://www.phlsci.com/product-lines/battery-watering-gun/

Me I'm cheap... I got one of these, and it has to be new...

https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-1-Gal-Pump-Sprayer-1501HDXA/307766754?source=shoppingads=en-US=Shopping-B-F_D28O-G-D28O-28_1_CHEMICALS-MULTI-NA-Feed-LIA-NA-NA-BASE_SHP_mmc=Shopping-B-F_D28O-G-D28O-28_1_CHEMICALS-MULTI-NA-Feed-LIA-NA-NA-BASE_SHP-7170041086586-5875116788847-92700044875627027=Cj0KCQiAgomBBhDXARIsAFNyUqNOz0X4CH1NhJjSMQOVWjzp7FK3cXZ3ryeRT1eK2QyxM29mHgeyMFQaAjOxEALw_wcB=aw.ds

You cut off the spray nozzle and mark the normal fill line with white
electrical tape and the EQ fill level with the Red Electrical tape. 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Yes that has happened with 2 of mine Jerry. I like the Transformer
Devils that I know. Might check these out in 2 or 3 years. The whole all in
one does not really appeal to me either but I will keep an open mind, in 2
or 3 years!   

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:19:44 -0800, Jerry Shafer 
wrote:  It is also interesting how sol ark sells over the counter to end
users and also through distributors but at nearly the same price so it
makes it difficult for our distributors to carry the sol ark products.
Jerry  
  On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 7:42 AM Jay  wrote: It is odd that the 12kw
20kw surge sol ark can't run a 15 amp 120v air compressor

 I saw a you
tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed installer who
mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and specifically mentioned
that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw inverter down. He didn't
mention if there is a fix coming. 

 I guess I'll wait to buy one until
they have that issue sorted out. 

 Jay

 Peltz power. 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

A main point to the choir is that each manufacturer has their own
recommendations. The US battery I often use has monthly EQ. 
Looking at 30
years of batteries here and the Offgrid manufactures seem to change what
they like over time. Sometimes it is so complicated that I can't expect my
client to succeed. I dumb it down, just the basics, and they still get 10
years or more on a set of L16's.

I think it is because battery companies
are in the business of selling batteries. I appreciate that also! 

This is
not rocket science though, If I had them do all of the things on that list,
well, they would not listen to me on the basics.

Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 14:29:12 -0500,
Ray  wrote:
> Dave makes a good point; I also don't recommend opening the
cells while 
> they are charging at a high rate. I like to get SG readings
with the 
> electrolyte being mixed by bubbling, but I turn off the
charging 
> sources, and let it settle down for a few minutes, before
opening caps.
> 
> And I second Steve's comments: over charging and over
filling the cells 
> can both lead to more problems than EQing might
solve.
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> 
> On 2/9/21 10:35
AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>> That does not sound best to me. I
get the point but there are much
>> better
>> ways. Not good for you to be
close around a bank in EQ. If you are
>> checking
>> water level every
month the level should not be really low. You do this
>> in
>> case you
miss a cell a month back! You should be counting as the water
>> goes
>> in
to see if you have put about the same amount in. I have never noticed
>>
any advantage to mixing the cells after watering. They will get mixed
the
>> next day. If this concerned you, you could run a 30 minute absorb
after
>> watering.
>>
>> I like to EQ before watering so my customer does
not over fill and start
>> the corrosion process. Just open all of the
cells and look before they
>> EQ.
>>
>> I also like to mark 2 of the lower
SG cells and 2 of the good ones. This
>> makes it easier for my clients to
check the bank. Once every summer or 2
>> they need to look at all of the
cells. Summer is best because it is the
>> time when you can do long
corrective EQ's if you find trouble.
>>
>>
>> Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
>> text
209 813 0060
>>
>> On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 05:36:39 -0800, Mark Frye 
>>
wrote:
>>> My Rolls manual says:
>>>
>>> "It is recommended to water the
battery cells half way through the
>>> equalization. This is to
>>> assure
the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte."
>>>
>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

[RE Ellison]

Probably preaching to the choir here and I’m sure not gonna argue with Surrette

But the purpose of equalization is to stir up the electrolyte so you have the 
same strength from the top to the bottom

Some of the older industrial cells had a tube where you could sample it all the 
way down to the bottom and the top to see what the difference was
I have seen them but I’ve never used them in our industry, but it was an 
interesting thought !

I have heard of batteries where they have taken them apart and had the lower 
portion of the cells considerably more wore than the upper portion, presumably 
from the electrolyte being stronger and never having been stirred up by a good 
charge

It seems that came from a class at Trojan many years ago but I could be wrong

Just my two cents worth and worth everything that you paid for it !

Bob Ellison


> On Feb 9, 2021, at 10:35 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>  wrote:
> 
> That does not sound  best to me. I get the point but there are much better
> ways. Not good for you to be close around a bank in EQ. If you are checking
> water level every month the level should not be really low. You do this in
> case you miss a cell a month back! You should be counting as the water goes
> in to see if you have put about the same amount in. I have never noticed
> any advantage to mixing the cells after watering. They will get mixed the
> next day. If this concerned you, you could run a 30 minute absorb after
> watering.
> 
> I like to EQ before watering so my customer does not over fill and start
> the corrosion process. Just open all of the cells and look before they EQ.
> 
> I also like to mark 2 of the lower SG cells and 2 of the good ones. This
> makes it easier for my clients to check the bank. Once every summer or 2
> they need to look at all of the cells. Summer is best because it is the
> time when you can do long corrective EQ's if you find trouble.
> 
> 
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
> 
> On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 05:36:39 -0800, Mark Frye 
> wrote:
>> My Rolls manual says:
>> 
>> "It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the 
>> equalization. This is to
>> assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte."
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

[William Miller]

Friends:



Thanks for the replies.  I am going to assume Howie is not eating his
batteries during any point of the recharge process.



A few respondents are not aware of constraints against watering batteries
prior to charging.  Here is a typical passage from a battery O manual,
below.  This is from the Deka manual:



Distilled or de-ionized water should only be added to batteries

while the batteries are on charge and gassing or as soon

after recharge as possible. This will prevent overfilling because

the electrolyte is at its maximum level during this time.



No one has yet provided any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, to answer the
primary question.  It is rephrased here:  Will adding water to a cell
change the specific gravity reading?



The implied question is:  To get accurate SG readings, do all cells need to
be at a consistent fill level?



My intuition tells me the answers are yes and yes.  If correct, I need to
change my maintenance procedure to make sure I am getting accurate SG
readings.



I am curious enough that I will continue to research this.  Here is what is
on my agenda:  I will continue to monitor this forum in case information
from a case study arises.  I will contact the engineers at Deka with this
question.  I have a test set of batteries that I am going to record SG
before and after watering.  The after watering will include SG readings
over a period of time to see how long mixing requires.



Thanks to everyone who replied.  Battery systems present a level of
complexity way beyond regular GT systems and deserve a lot of thought and
research-- but then you all know that.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Howie Michaelson [mailto:howie.michael...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 9, 2021 5:13 AM
*To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte
Level



William,

It certainly is possible I've missed something, but I've never seen any
references to not eating batteries before equalizing. If anything, there is
statements saying make sure to check levels before equalizing. I'm not sure
why you wouldn't bring levels up before equalizing...

Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service
802-272-0004



On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 2:05 AM William Miller  wrote:

Friends:



Here is a conundrum I have often pondered.  Maybe someone can solve this
for me:



Flooded cell O manuals instruct not to top off battery electrolyte levels
before equalizing.  They also instruct to check SG before adding water.



Imagine two identical cells, one low on water, but above the moss-guard,
and one at the recommended level.  You equalize the array and then check
the SG on both.



I am imagining that if the cells were equivalent in capacity, they have the
same amount of acid.  However if one has less water, it has a higher ratio
of acid to water, therefore it will read higher in SG.  If the above is
true, it is not accurate to compare the SG in cells unless the water level
is equal, or close to.



If you were to add distilled water to the cell that was low, the water
would not immediately mix thoroughly.  Then to accurately compare SG, you
need to wait some time after watering and you would need to be somewhat
accurate in keeping all cells at the same water level.  How long would this
be?



Checking SG is but one part of flooded cell maintenance.  My monthly
procedure is this:



1.   Check to see if water is above moss-guard on all cells.  (I sometime
skip this if I am confident the cells historically do not dry out in one
month.)

2.   Initiate an EQ charge cycle.

3.   Shortly after the EQ cycle, check and record SG in all cells.

4.   Re-water batteries to correct level.



The above takes long enough.  If I have to add water and let it mix before
I test SG, the process takes even longer.  Nonetheless, I want accurate
results.  My advice to clients and actions taken are dependent on these
readings.



Anyone have any wisdom to pour in?  I am going to experiment to see what I
can learn.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

[Ray]

Dave makes a good point; I also don't recommend opening the cells while 
they are charging at a high rate.   I like to get SG readings with the 
electrolyte being mixed by bubbling, but I turn off the charging 
sources, and let it settle down for a few minutes, before opening caps.


And I second Steve's comments: over charging and over filling the cells 
can both lead to more problems than EQing might solve.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 2/9/21 10:35 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

That does not sound  best to me. I get the point but there are much better
ways. Not good for you to be close around a bank in EQ. If you are checking
water level every month the level should not be really low. You do this in
case you miss a cell a month back! You should be counting as the water goes
in to see if you have put about the same amount in. I have never noticed
any advantage to mixing the cells after watering. They will get mixed the
next day. If this concerned you, you could run a 30 minute absorb after
watering.

I like to EQ before watering so my customer does not over fill and start
the corrosion process. Just open all of the cells and look before they EQ.

I also like to mark 2 of the lower SG cells and 2 of the good ones. This
makes it easier for my clients to check the bank. Once every summer or 2
they need to look at all of the cells. Summer is best because it is the
time when you can do long corrective EQ's if you find trouble.


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 05:36:39 -0800, Mark Frye 
wrote:

My Rolls manual says:

"It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the
equalization. This is to
assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte."

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues

[Jerry Shafer]

It is also interesting how sol ark sells over the counter to end users and
also through distributors but at nearly the same price so it makes it
difficult for our distributors to carry the sol ark products.
Jerry

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 7:42 AM Jay  wrote:

> It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can’t run a 15 amp 120v air
> compressor
>
> I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed
> installer who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and
> specifically mentioned that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw
> inverter down. He didn’t mention if there is a fix coming.
>
> I guess I’ll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out.
>
> Jay
>
> Peltz power.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues

[Roland - RES]

We have been successful with double and triple Sol-Arks being able to start 
just about any single phase loads, the imbalance tolerance is multiplied per 
inverter. 

Like others we had numerous single inverter sites having issues offgrid, 
primarily while completing construction, chop saws and air compressors being 
the main culprits. We measured a max surge amp as high as 60a for a 1hp 
compressor and large chop saw. 

We have been successful in using an Outback X240 balancing transformer to 
resolve the bus unbalance shut downs. 

Does anyone know of a non outback balancing transformer available on the market?

> Sent from a IPhone, with touch screen keys on the fly. Please excuse 
> shortcuts and typos. 
> 
Roland Shackelford
NABCEP CERTIFIED PV INSTALLER
President 
Renewable Energy Services (RES), Inc. 
Mobile:  808-938-9239
www.renewablenergy.com

> On Feb 9, 2021, at 5:40 AM, Jason Szumlanski 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Is anyone aware if this is alleviated with a parallel connected pair of 
> inverters? I'm not saying that is the right solution, but it might not matter 
> in a larger parallel connected system. 
> 
>> On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 10:24 AM Jay  wrote:
>> It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can’t run a 15 amp 120v air 
>> compressor
>> 
>> I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed 
>> installer who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and specifically 
>> mentioned that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw inverter down. He 
>> didn’t mention if there is a fix coming. 
>> 
>> I guess I’ll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out. 
>> 
>> Jay
>> 
>> Peltz power. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues

[Jason Szumlanski]

Is anyone aware if this is alleviated with a parallel connected pair of
inverters? I'm not saying that is the right solution, but it might not
matter in a larger parallel connected system.

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 10:24 AM Jay  wrote:

> It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can’t run a 15 amp 120v air
> compressor
>
> I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed
> installer who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and
> specifically mentioned that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw
> inverter down. He didn’t mention if there is a fix coming.
>
> I guess I’ll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out.
>
> Jay
>
> Peltz power.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

That does not sound  best to me. I get the point but there are much better
ways. Not good for you to be close around a bank in EQ. If you are checking
water level every month the level should not be really low. You do this in
case you miss a cell a month back! You should be counting as the water goes
in to see if you have put about the same amount in. I have never noticed
any advantage to mixing the cells after watering. They will get mixed the
next day. If this concerned you, you could run a 30 minute absorb after
watering.

I like to EQ before watering so my customer does not over fill and start
the corrosion process. Just open all of the cells and look before they EQ.

I also like to mark 2 of the lower SG cells and 2 of the good ones. This
makes it easier for my clients to check the bank. Once every summer or 2
they need to look at all of the cells. Summer is best because it is the
time when you can do long corrective EQ's if you find trouble.


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 05:36:39 -0800, Mark Frye 
wrote:
> My Rolls manual says:
> 
> "It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the 
> equalization. This is to
> assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte."
> 
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[RE-wrenches] Fwd: Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

[Tump]

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Jeff Myles 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level
> Date: February 9, 2021 at 8:54:04 AM EST
> T
> Cc: 
> The main reason the manual instructs not to top up all cells before 
> equalizing is to avoid overfilling to/up in the vent and having a spillover 
> when they bubble. 
> 
> We suggest inspecting and topping them up after because they also go through 
> water running the equalization. If a cell is noticeably lower than others it 
> would make sense to top it up slightly to bring the electrolyte to a similar 
> level as the others before beginning the process.  If it's just one cell in 
> the bank I would expect the SG reading on that one will be off from the 
> others to begin with. If it's going through more water than others it's 
> getting hotter.  Why?
> 
> Lower liquid level doesn't always equate to higher acid concentration. The SG 
> reading in the cell with lower electrolyte would only read higher than others 
> if the cell, like the others, wasn't suflated.  If it is sulfated, the SG 
> readings at full charge are lower because the sulfate has accumulated on the 
> plate and not released back into the electrolyte during charging.
> 
> First, he should check all cells at float charge before beginning the 
> equalization so he knows where they're all starting from. Is the cell with 
> the lower electrolyte level reading higher or lower SG than the others?  Are 
> the rest completely balanced and this one is off?
> 
> SG readings immediately after equalization and before adding water will be 
> elevated due to temperature. To get accurate readings after adding water he 
> should cycle the batteries 2-3 times, allowing it to mix normally, and then 
> check SG at float charge. SG results after an equalization are accurate after 
> the bank has been cycled a few times. If cell(s) were sulfated, they will 
> continue to desulfate as they're cycled normally so the results aren't 
> immediate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>    
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
>   
> Jeff Myles ⋅ Marketing Manager
> t +1.902.597.4012 m +1.902.802.6962
> f +1.902.597.8447 e j...@rollsbattery.com 
> international mobile +1.917.463.8389
>   
>   
>  <>   <> 
>   <> 
>  <> 
>  
>  
> 
> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for the 
> addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

[Ray]

I think the instructions to "not add water before EQing" are just that 
the fluid levels will rise as the batteries come to full charge, so you 
don't want to end up with over filled cells.  I would advise to just 
fill all the cells to at least a 1/4 to 1/2" over the moss plates, but 
to be a 1/4" to 1/2" below the bottom of the filler tubes.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 2/9/21 8:52 AM, Jay wrote:

Hi william

My experience shows me that first filling with water to normal full mark and 
then  eq provides the best results

Many years ago I had my own battery bank that needed an eq.  Newer batteries 
well maintained   They were low on water but within the normal range. After 2 
eq the sg were not moving as much as I expected.

After filling and giving it a few days of normal charging to mix I eq again and 
the numbers came out perfectly. Every battery I’ve done this technique with has 
worked well.

It was explained this way to me.
With less water you have higher acid ratio  meaning you need a higher charge 
voltage to eq making it harder to achieve.  Higher voltages create higher heat 
causing more damage to the battery.



Jay
Peltz Power







On Feb 9, 2021, at 6:36 AM, Mark Frye  wrote:

My Rolls manual says:

"It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the 
equalization. This is to
assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte."

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[RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues

[Jay]

It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can’t run a 15 amp 120v air 
compressor

I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed installer 
who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and specifically mentioned 
that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw inverter down. He didn’t 
mention if there is a fix coming. 

I guess I’ll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out. 

Jay

Peltz power. 




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

[Jay]

Hi william

My experience shows me that first filling with water to normal full mark and 
then  eq provides the best results

Many years ago I had my own battery bank that needed an eq.  Newer batteries 
well maintained   They were low on water but within the normal range. After 2 
eq the sg were not moving as much as I expected. 

After filling and giving it a few days of normal charging to mix I eq again and 
the numbers came out perfectly. Every battery I’ve done this technique with has 
worked well. 

It was explained this way to me. 
With less water you have higher acid ratio  meaning you need a higher charge 
voltage to eq making it harder to achieve.  Higher voltages create higher heat 
causing more damage to the battery. 



Jay
Peltz Power






> On Feb 9, 2021, at 6:36 AM, Mark Frye  wrote:
> 
> My Rolls manual says:
> 
> "It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the 
> equalization. This is to
> assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte."
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

[Mark Frye]

My Rolls manual says:

"It is recommended to water the battery cells half way through the 
equalization. This is to

assure the water is completely mixed into the electrolyte."

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Specific Gravity versus Electrolyte Level

[Howie Michaelson]

William,
It certainly is possible I've missed something, but I've never seen any
references to not eating batteries before equalizing. If anything, there is
statements saying make sure to check levels before equalizing. I'm not sure
why you wouldn't bring levels up before equalizing...

Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service
802-272-0004

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 2:05 AM William Miller  wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> Here is a conundrum I have often pondered.  Maybe someone can solve this
> for me:
>
>
>
> Flooded cell O manuals instruct not to top off battery electrolyte
> levels before equalizing.  They also instruct to check SG before adding
> water.
>
>
>
> Imagine two identical cells, one low on water, but above the moss-guard,
> and one at the recommended level.  You equalize the array and then check
> the SG on both.
>
>
>
> I am imagining that if the cells were equivalent in capacity, they have
> the same amount of acid.  However if one has less water, it has a higher
> ratio of acid to water, therefore it will read higher in SG.  If the above
> is true, it is not accurate to compare the SG in cells unless the water
> level is equal, or close to.
>
>
>
> If you were to add distilled water to the cell that was low, the water
> would not immediately mix thoroughly.  Then to accurately compare SG, you
> need to wait some time after watering and you would need to be somewhat
> accurate in keeping all cells at the same water level.  How long would this
> be?
>
>
>
> Checking SG is but one part of flooded cell maintenance.  My monthly
> procedure is this:
>
>
>
> 1.   Check to see if water is above moss-guard on all cells.  (I sometime
> skip this if I am confident the cells historically do not dry out in one
> month.)
>
> 2.   Initiate an EQ charge cycle.
>
> 3.   Shortly after the EQ cycle, check and record SG in all cells.
>
> 4.   Re-water batteries to correct level.
>
>
>
> The above takes long enough.  If I have to add water and let it mix before
> I test SG, the process takes even longer.  Nonetheless, I want accurate
> results.  My advice to clients and actions taken are dependent on these
> readings.
>
>
>
> Anyone have any wisdom to pour in?  I am going to experiment to see what I
> can learn.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
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