Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs

2018-07-03 Thread William Miller
Wrenches:



I think the trick is to remove the roofing from the category of “likely to
become energized.”  If your wire management is such that there is no way
that any PV wire can come into contact with the metal roofing, then you are
not obligated under 250.4(A)4 to bond.



How one accomplishes this relies on one’s own ingenuity, seeing as how the
industry is way behind on developing wire management hardware.  I do not
believe ties and clips are adequate.  Instead some form of raceway is
required.  We love Snap-n-rack racking because the channel is deep enough
to accept PV wire and Gen4 MC connectors and has snap-on covers available.
The racking is your raceway and contains PV wire absolutely.  You of course
need to bond the racking and module frames, all of which is accomplished
using the SnR hardware.



We mount transition boxes near enough to the end of a string that the
factory module wire connects directly to the box without extensions
required.  We order MC connectors as bulkhead mounts and then drill and tap
Schedule 80 plugs to accept the MC connector threads.



If you invite an inspector to look under your array and nary a hint of PV
wire can be seen, you can make the case that the roofing is not likely to
become energized.



William Miller



[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Glenn Burt
*Sent:* Monday, June 18, 2018 11:28 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'; 'AE Solar'
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs



NEC 250.4(A)4 Also states that normally non-current-carrying electrically
conductive materials that are likely to become energized shall be connected
together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes
an effective ground-fault current path.



So the logic goes if an array develops a ground fault, and the faulted
conductor contacts a metal roof surface, there is a possibility that the
roof may become energized. So for many reasons, bond the roof to ground.



-Glenn

Renewable Energy Engineer – Cadmus

Principal Engineer – Power Guru

Principal – glb, Consulting Company



*From:* RE-wrenches  *On Behalf
Of *br...@willpowerelect.com
*Sent:* Monday, June 18, 2018 1:42 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches ; AE Solar <
autonomousenerg...@gmail.com>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs



NEC 690.47 (A) requires the array to be grounded, not necessarily the roof.
If you have bonded the rails and modules and your grounding conductor goes
back to the service you should be good. 690.47 (B) allows installation of
an auxiliary grounding electrode (ground rod or building steel). Not a bad
idea in lightning prone areas. ;) Local AHJ may have different opinions.



Bruce Fiero-RMI





*"Energizing the Rogue Valley"*



*4115 S Pacific Hwy*

*Medford, OR 97501*



*P:* 541.535.3965
*F:* 541.512.0061
*E:* br...@willpowerelect.com
*W:* Willpower Electric, LLC <http://www.willpower-electric.com>



*CCB **191852*
*Oregon Electrical Contractor **C681*
*NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer **031409-38*

*DUNS* *191470363*

*Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally **Solar (PV) Installation & Energy
Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs  *




***This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or
otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the
addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error,
please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents
confidential, and immediately delete the message and any attachments from
your system. *





 Original Message ----
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs
From: "glenn.b...@glbcc.com" 
Date: Sun, June 17, 2018 6:17 pm
To: AE Solar 
Cc: RE-wrenches 

Depends on the seam profile. Same device may be used in many cases. We have
Also drilled and used the standard direct burial lugs on the underside of
the pans, at the wave when they hang over enough to get working space. Then
a horizontal run of copper wire to connect.



Don't be lulled into thinking that S-5 clamps are listed for grounding roof
pans - they are not. They are only listed for module bonding to ground.



Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos.



-- Original message--

*From: *AE Solar

*Date: *Sun, Jun 17, 2018 8:46 PM

*To: glenn.b...@glbcc.com ;*

*Cc: RE-wrenches;*

*Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs*



*thanks glenn. and what about commercial? anyone have code references
regarding grounding when doing solar on metal roofs? i thought a few years
back there was a conversation on this but i can't seem to find it.*




*Adam KatzmanAutonomous EnergiesPO Box 1245*



*Kingston, NY 12402www.autonomousenergies.com
<http://www.autonomousenergies.com>(518) 567-1468 <(518)%20567-1468>*



*On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:46 PM, gl

Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs

2018-07-03 Thread Jason Szumlanski
Local AHJs here have sometimes required/accepted a single listed lug on a
single pan. How you seal that effectively and permanently is a mystery to
me, but what's more of a mystery is the sensibility of the conclusions they
reach. Unless every pan, cap, and flashing within reach of an energized
conductor is bonded using a listed lug, how would this work effectively?
S-5 clamps or other attachment fasteners are probably just as effective at
creating a bonding path as and roof pan fastener, but definitely can't be
relied upon from a code/listing perspective. Maybe we need to encourage
metal roofing manufacturers to get 2703 listing (haha - right).

Side note: I don't see AHJ's worrying about overhead service conductors
potentially energizing a metal roof. I've seen some pretty shaky rusted out
weatherhead pipes and downed poles in storms with overhead conductors
laying on roofs.


Jason Szumlanski





On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:32 PM Glenn Burt  wrote:

> NEC 250.4(A)4 Also states that normally non-current-carrying electrically
> conductive materials that are likely to become energized shall be connected
> together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes
> an effective ground-fault current path.
>
>
>
> So the logic goes if an array develops a ground fault, and the faulted
> conductor contacts a metal roof surface, there is a possibility that the
> roof may become energized. So for many reasons, bond the roof to ground.
>
>
>
> -Glenn
>
> Renewable Energy Engineer – Cadmus
>
> Principal Engineer – Power Guru
>
> Principal – glb, Consulting Company
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *br...@willpowerelect.com
> *Sent:* Monday, June 18, 2018 1:42 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches ; AE Solar <
> autonomousenerg...@gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs
>
>
>
> NEC 690.47 (A) requires the array to be grounded, not necessarily the
> roof. If you have bonded the rails and modules and your grounding conductor
> goes back to the service you should be good. 690.47 (B) allows installation
> of an auxiliary grounding electrode (ground rod or building steel). Not a
> bad idea in lightning prone areas. ;) Local AHJ may have different opinions.
>
>
>
> Bruce Fiero-RMI
>
>
>
>
>
> *"Energizing the Rogue Valley"*
>
>
>
> *4115 S Pacific Hwy*
>
> *Medford, OR 97501*
>
>
>
> *P:* 541.535.3965
> *F:* 541.512.0061
> *E:* br...@willpowerelect.com
> *W:* Willpower Electric, LLC <http://www.willpower-electric.com>
>
>
>
> *CCB **191852*
> *Oregon Electrical Contractor **C681*
> *NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer **031409-38*
>
> *DUNS* *191470363*
>
> *Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally **Solar (PV) Installation & Energy
> Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs  *
>
>
>
>
> ***This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or
> otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the
> addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error,
> please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents
> confidential, and immediately delete the message and any attachments from
> your system. *
>
>
>
>
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs
> From: "glenn.b...@glbcc.com" 
> Date: Sun, June 17, 2018 6:17 pm
> To: AE Solar 
> Cc: RE-wrenches 
>
> Depends on the seam profile. Same device may be used in many cases. We
> have Also drilled and used the standard direct burial lugs on the underside
> of the pans, at the wave when they hang over enough to get working space.
> Then a horizontal run of copper wire to connect.
>
>
>
> Don't be lulled into thinking that S-5 clamps are listed for grounding
> roof pans - they are not. They are only listed for module bonding to ground.
>
>
>
> Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos.
>
>
>
> -- Original message--
>
> *From: *AE Solar
>
> *Date: *Sun, Jun 17, 2018 8:46 PM
>
> *To: glenn.b...@glbcc.com ;*
>
> *Cc: RE-wrenches;*
>
> *Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs*
>
>
>
> *thanks glenn. and what about commercial? anyone have code references
> regarding grounding when doing solar on metal roofs? i thought a few years
> back there was a conversation on this but i can't seem to find it.*
>
>
>
>
> *Adam KatzmanAutonomous EnergiesPO Box 1245*
>
>
>
> *Kingston, NY 12402www.autonomousenergies.com
> <http://www.autonomousenergies.com>(518) 567-1468 <(518)%20567-1468>*
>
>
>
> *On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:46 PM, glenn.b...@glbc

Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs

2018-06-18 Thread Glenn Burt
NEC 250.4(A)4 Also states that normally non-current-carrying electrically 
conductive materials that are likely to become energized shall be connected 
together and to the electrical supply source in a manner that establishes an 
effective ground-fault current path.

 

So the logic goes if an array develops a ground fault, and the faulted 
conductor contacts a metal roof surface, there is a possibility that the roof 
may become energized. So for many reasons, bond the roof to ground.

 

-Glenn

Renewable Energy Engineer – Cadmus

Principal Engineer – Power Guru

Principal – glb, Consulting Company

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
br...@willpowerelect.com
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2018 1:42 PM
To: RE-wrenches ; AE Solar 

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs

 

NEC 690.47 (A) requires the array to be grounded, not necessarily the roof. If 
you have bonded the rails and modules and your grounding conductor goes back to 
the service you should be good. 690.47 (B) allows installation of an auxiliary 
grounding electrode (ground rod or building steel). Not a bad idea in lightning 
prone areas. ;) Local AHJ may have different opinions.

 

Bruce Fiero-RMI

 



 

"Energizing the Rogue Valley"

 

4115 S Pacific Hwy

Medford, OR 97501

 

P: 541.535.3965
F: 541.512.0061
E: br...@willpowerelect.com <mailto:br...@willpowerelect.com> 
W: Willpower Electric, LLC <http://www.willpower-electric.com>  

 

CCB 191852
Oregon Electrical Contractor C681
NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38

DUNS 191470363 

Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient 
Commercial Lighting Programs  


 

**This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or 
otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the 
addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error, please 
advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents confidential, and 
immediately delete the message and any attachments from your system. 

 

 

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs
From: "glenn.b...@glbcc.com <mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com> " 
mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com> >
Date: Sun, June 17, 2018 6:17 pm
To: AE Solar mailto:autonomousenerg...@gmail.com> >
Cc: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >

Depends on the seam profile. Same device may be used in many cases. We have 
Also drilled and used the standard direct burial lugs on the underside of the 
pans, at the wave when they hang over enough to get working space. Then a 
horizontal run of copper wire to connect.

 

Don't be lulled into thinking that S-5 clamps are listed for grounding roof 
pans - they are not. They are only listed for module bonding to ground.

 

Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos.

 

-- Original message--

From: AE Solar

Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 8:46 PM

To: glenn.b...@glbcc.com <mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com> ;

Cc: RE-wrenches;

Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs

 

thanks glenn. and what about commercial? anyone have code references regarding 
grounding when doing solar on metal roofs? i thought a few years back there was 
a conversation on this but i can't seem to find it.




Adam Katzman
Autonomous Energies
PO Box 1245

Kingston, NY 12402
www.autonomousenergies.com <http://www.autonomousenergies.com> 
(518) 567-1468  

 

On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:46 PM, glenn.b...@glbcc.com 
<mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com>  mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com> > wrote:

We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for residential 
systems.

 

-Glenn

 

Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone

 

-- Original message--

From: AE Solar

Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PM

To: RE-wrenches;

Cc: 

Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs

 

wrenchers,

what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanks

adam




Adam Katzman
Autonomous Energies
PO Box 1245

Kingston, NY 12402
www.autonomousenergies.com <http://www.autonomousenergies.com> 
(518) 567-1468  

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs

2018-06-18 Thread bruce
NEC 690.47 (A) requires the array to be grounded, not necessarily the roof. If you have bonded the rails and modules and your grounding conductor goes back to the service you should be good. 690.47 (B) allows installation of an auxiliary grounding electrode (ground rod or building steel). Not a bad idea in lightning prone areas. ;) Local AHJ may have different opinions.Bruce Fiero-RMI"Energizing the Rogue Valley"4115 S Pacific HwyMedford, OR 97501P: 541.535.3965F: 541.512.0061E: br...@willpowerelect.comW: Willpower Electric, LLC CCB 191852Oregon Electrical Contractor C681NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38DUNS 191470363 Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs   **This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error, please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents confidential, and immediately delete the message and any attachments from your system.  


 Original Message ----
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs
From: "glenn.b...@glbcc.com" <glenn.b...@glbcc.com>
Date: Sun, June 17, 2018 6:17 pm
To: AE Solar <autonomousenerg...@gmail.com>
Cc: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

   Depends on the seam profile. Same device may be used in many cases. We have Also drilled and used the standard direct burial lugs on the underside of the pans, at the wave when they hang over enough to get working space. Then a horizontal run of copper wire to connect.Don't be lulled into thinking that S-5 clamps are listed for grounding roof pans - they are not. They are only listed for module bonding to ground.Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos.-- Original message--From: AE SolarDate: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 8:46 PMTo: glenn.b...@glbcc.com;Cc: RE-wrenches;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofsthanks glenn. and what about commercial? anyone have code references regarding grounding when doing solar on metal roofs? i thought a few years back there was a conversation on this but i can't seem to find it.Adam KatzmanAutonomous EnergiesPO Box 1245Kingston, NY 12402www.autonomousenergies.com(518) 567-1468 On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:46 PM, glenn.b...@glbcc.com <glenn.b...@glbcc.com> wrote:  We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for residential systems.-GlennSent from my Verizon LG Smartphone-- Original message--From: AE SolarDate: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofswrenchers,what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanksadamAdam KatzmanAutonomous EnergiesPO Box 1245Kingston, NY 12402www.autonomousenergies.com(518) 567-1468 ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs

2018-06-18 Thread glenn.b...@glbcc.com
Just beneath the array, and usually the pan on either side of the array 
footprint.
Glenn
Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos.
-- Original message--From: Benn KilburnDate: Mon, Jun 18, 2018 11:31 
AMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs
Glenn,Would you Bond/ground every metal pan or only the ones beneath the array?

Benn KilburnSkyFire Energy780-906-7807
On Jun 17, 2018, at 11:46 AM, "glenn.b...@glbcc.com"  
wrote:










We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for 
residential systems.
-Glenn
Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone
-- Original message--From: AE SolarDate: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PMTo: 
RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs
wrenchers,what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? 
thanksadam
Adam Katzman
Autonomous Energies
PO Box 1245Kingston, NY 12402
www.autonomousenergies.com
(518) 567-1468






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Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs

2018-06-18 Thread Benn Kilburn
Glenn,
Would you Bond/ground every metal pan or only the ones beneath the array?

Benn Kilburn
SkyFire Energy
780-906-7807

> On Jun 17, 2018, at 11:46 AM, "glenn.b...@glbcc.com"  
> wrote:
> 
> We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for 
> residential systems.
> 
> -Glenn
> 
> Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone
> 
> -- Original message--
> From: AE Solar
> Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PM
> To: RE-wrenches;
> Cc:
> Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs
> 
> wrenchers,
> what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanks
> adam
> 
> Adam Katzman
> Autonomous Energies
> PO Box 1245
> Kingston, NY 12402
> www.autonomousenergies.com
> (518) 567-1468
> 
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs

2018-06-17 Thread glenn.b...@glbcc.com
Depends on the seam profile. Same device may be used in many cases. We have 
Also drilled and used the standard direct burial lugs on the underside of the 
pans, at the wave when they hang over enough to get working space. Then a 
horizontal run of copper wire to connect.
Don't be lulled into thinking that S-5 clamps are listed for grounding roof 
pans - they are not. They are only listed for module bonding to ground.
Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos.
-- Original message--From: AE SolarDate: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 8:46 PMTo: 
glenn.b...@glbcc.com;Cc: RE-wrenches;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on 
metal roofs
thanks glenn. and what about commercial? anyone have code references regarding 
grounding when doing solar on metal roofs? i thought a few years back there was 
a conversation on this but i can't seem to find it.
Adam Katzman
Autonomous Energies
PO Box 1245Kingston, NY 12402
www.autonomousenergies.com
(518) 567-1468



On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:46 PM, glenn.b...@glbcc.com  
wrote:









We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for 
residential systems.
-Glenn
Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone
-- Original message--From: AE SolarDate: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PMTo: 
RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs
wrenchers,what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? 
thanksadam
Adam Katzman
Autonomous Energies
PO Box 1245Kingston, NY 12402
www.autonomousenergies.com
(518) 567-1468








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Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs

2018-06-17 Thread AE Solar
thanks glenn. and what about commercial? anyone have code references
regarding grounding when doing solar on metal roofs? i thought a few years
back there was a conversation on this but i can't seem to find it.

Adam Katzman
Autonomous Energies
PO Box 1245
Kingston, NY 12402
www.autonomousenergies.com
(518) 567-1468


On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:46 PM, glenn.b...@glbcc.com 
wrote:

> We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for
> residential systems.
>
> -Glenn
>
> *Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone*
>
> -- Original message--
> *From: *AE Solar
> *Date: *Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PM
> *To: *RE-wrenches;
> *Cc: *
> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs
>
> wrenchers,
> what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanks
> adam
>
> Adam Katzman
> Autonomous Energies
> PO Box 1245
> Kingston, NY 12402
> www.autonomousenergies.com
> (518) 567-1468
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs

2018-06-17 Thread RE Ellison
I always recommend grounding the metal roof also, even without panels on them.
 most of the sealing methods we use can insulate the rack from the roof
S5 type clamps being an exception

Just a couple thoughts from an overheated brain !

Bob Ellison

> On Jun 17, 2018, at 1:46 PM, "glenn.b...@glbcc.com"  
> wrote:
> 
> We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for 
> residential systems.
> 
> -Glenn
> 
> Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone
> 
> -- Original message--
> From: AE Solar
> Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PM
> To: RE-wrenches;
> Cc:
> Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs
> 
> wrenchers,
> what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanks
> adam
> 
> Adam Katzman
> Autonomous Energies
> PO Box 1245
> Kingston, NY 12402
> www.autonomousenergies.com
> (518) 567-1468
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs

2018-06-17 Thread glenn.b...@glbcc.com
We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for residential 
systems.
-Glenn
Sent from my Verizon LG Smartphone
-- Original message--From: AE SolarDate: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PMTo: 
RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs
wrenchers,what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? 
thanksadam
Adam Katzman
Autonomous Energies
PO Box 1245Kingston, NY 12402
www.autonomousenergies.com
(518) 567-1468



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