Again, controlling deviation has nothing to do with the audio components
of the signal. The audio does not change based on the deviation. (short
of audible distortion if it exceeds the passband)
I agree it is your responsibility to make sure that your TX does not
overdeviate, but there is
Commercial radios also used fixed values. The Micor is one example of fixed
values for tone deviation.
Chuck
WB2EDV
- Original Message -
From: Mike Morris WA6ILQ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 11:37 PM
Subject: Re:
dear all
i have a problem of Alignment of motorola P020 ..
when i read it to access service mode it has request password ,so i enter the
password i think it ,but it's re request patchfile or something ??
i use Alfa series RSS ,,,
thanks
2.5 kHz channel spacing? Where is that used? It's not in the commercial
USA market. Or did you mean 7.5 kHz?
Joe M.
James wrote:
And most ever ICOM (I - It, C - constantly, O - over, M - modulates)
over modulates. Every one I set my hands on will do 6.5Kc (never mind
the poor stability).
skipp025 wrote:
mch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, most of the two-way industry doesn't really care about
repeater audio the way hams do.
And your point is..?
The point is that you cannot compare an industry where 'intelligible is
good enough' is the standard for most to an industry
Most times when we hear or read about the term flat audio... our
attention is normally directed toward the demodulated audio sections
of the repeater hardware. Or at least our attention should normally
be directed at the demodulated audio stages.
When you look at the global repeater
Nate Duehr wrote:
A...
We haven't had a good What kind of audio is it REALLY mini-debate on
the list in quite a while... good to see it again... heh. I agree
with Bob that people keep mixing the term flat with discriminator
and that's just downright confusing to new folks. Some of us
Nate Duehr wrote:
Sure would be nice to see ARRL labs do a shootout of repeater
controllers with tests like this one... they spend days and days (and
page after page) testing out $10,000 HF rigs...
And people wonder why I don't join...
If I could afford to blow $10K on an HF pos rig, I
Eric Lemmon wrote:
Nate,
Several years ago, I chastised ARRL Labs for failing to report the basic
2-way radio performance parameters of 12dB SINAD sensitivity, voice
deviation limit, CTCSS deviation limit, and center frequency accuracy. I
did not get a satisfactory answer, but I suspect
Doesn't the MSR-2000 use the crystal element that has an internal range
adjustment? Seems to me that when we converted one about four years ago, it
wouldn't warp high (maybe it was low) enough. We opened the thing up and
found a trimmer in there, moved it slightly and put it back together. We
You're right, at least right about one we converted to 220 a year or so ago
http://home.comcast.net/~micorrepeater/ . I don't know the model number,
but it's a hi-band VHF 100W continuous machine in the tall cabinet. How do
you handle the IDC adjustment? We ended up having to adjust IDC for 800
Yikes!. You mean that spark gap is dead!
Lance N2HBA
- Original Message -
From: Jim B.
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Amateur-Grade Radios (Was: Fixed Audio)
Eric Lemmon wrote:
Nate,
skipp025 wrote:
mch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In the real world, if someone's radio sounds crappy, it needs
fixed by someone or the radio will get a (well deserved) reputation
as a POS and people need to know to not buy that model.
But an over deviated new radio doesn't sound crappy in
Real world transmitters always have limiters. Those DO change
flatness. Just look at the EIA/TIA specication for testing
transmitter pre-emphasis. The test is not run at system deviation.
It is not even run at 60% of system deviation. It is run at 20% of
system deviation. [that's +/-
Most two-way radio people never use the term flat audio repeater. We
would assume most standard voice audio repeaters operate as the
mentioned so the flat audio repeater has never really been applied
by Industry as a real description. Some Amateurs seem to want to
apply the label and
mch wrote:
2.5 kHz channel spacing? Where is that used? It's not in the commercial
USA market. Or did you mean 7.5 kHz?
Joe M.
FWIW-He said channel steps, not spacing.
James wrote:
It even does 2.5 KHz channel steps to
comply with modern narrow band channel planning
--
Jim Barbour
Jeff DePolo wrote:
Real world transmitters always have limiters. Those DO change
flatness.
That keeps throwing me. I hear 'limiter' and I go towards the receiver.
A limiter is a low IF amplifier that is biased to go into saturation
with very little input. This clips off amplitude peaks,
Hi Mike,
I'd like to see a controller that has enough in it that all you need
to interface
to is discriminator audio and modulator audio. On the receive side it
could
have a Micor-type squelch and a de-emphasis network built with 1%
parts.
On the transmit side it has pre-emphasis and feeds
At 3/14/2007 22:04, you wrote:
Robin,
I'm guessing that you ordered bare crystals to put into channel elements
that had been previously compensated for other crystals. It's not
surprising that they did not operate properly.
Wait a minute - he said the new xtals were 36 kHz off frequency @
Hi NJ,
... The solution seems to be to run flat audio within
the controller, ...
I couldn't agree more. Coming from the commercial two-way world,
this is how we do everything, but I do understand why some repeater
builders want to go the other way. I just wouldn't call it flat
audio - it's just
Hi Robin,
There is a range adjustment under the cover of In/on some msr-2000
mitrek channels. You simply need to range the coarse adjustment
within the ball park.
Also know the crystals will age and change a bit over the first
few months of operation.
Some people cut open the channel
Jim B. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jeff DePolo wrote:
Real world transmitters always have limiters. Those DO
change flatness.
That keeps throwing me. I hear 'limiter' and I go towards the
receiver. A limiter is a low IF amplifier that is biased to go
into saturation with very little
Real world transmitters always have limiters. Those DO change
flatness.
That keeps throwing me. I hear 'limiter' and I go towards the
receiver.
Actually, it wasn't me that said Real world transmitters always have
limiters. I know it was just a cut n' paste mistake, no offense
Hi Jeff,
Bottom line: limiting after preemphasis results in a reduction in the
noise-limited dynamic range at higher frequencies; that's a natural
byproduct of a process which originated in the user's radio. The
repeater,
following the same preemphasis/deemphasis curve as the user's radio,
has
But an over deviated new radio doesn't sound crappy in the typical
operators hands. It often sounds pretty darn good/loud. So the
mfgrs keep sending them out hot and few people complain about
it.
And repeaters which 'fix' the problem for them doesn't help, either.
By the nature of the
'nj902' wrote:
Real world transmitters always have limiters. Those DO change
flatness.
That keeps throwing me. I hear 'limiter' and I go towards the
receiver.
Jeff DePolo wrote:
Actually, it wasn't me that said Real world transmitters always have
limiters. I know it was just a
Hi,
I need advise and recommendation from any of you repeater guru's here and
help me to choose between this two filter. Sinclair Q202GR or Q2220E?
Thanks
Azam
hi can any one help pls i have 6 marconi rc690s vhf.all on 2m. thay
all trainsmit on the corrcet freqs and recive,but the audio sounds
like muffled,like in the back of the box. u can just make out what
people r saying .any one ever converted one b4?from what i know, this
is all u need to do is
Thanks Bob...glad to see someone else on this list has done what I've
done in the past. I too have had no problems putting crystals in
elements and having them work properly. The repeater environment is
stable; it's co-located with a UHF TV transmitter, and the owner pays
close attention to
Hi Skipp,
I've looked and not found such an adjustment. The RBTI page shows a
hidden variable inductor, but that isn't the element I have. The
element I have is labeled KXN1095A; maybe that's not what I have, but
that's the label on it.
This element has the IDC adjustment, and one variable
Wait a minute - he said the new xtals were 36 kHz off frequency @
147.105 MHz. That's a long ways off, more than you would normally
be able to warp them with capacitance.
Yes it is a long way off the desired xtal frequency...
The hidden channel element coarse frequency adjustment would
At 3/14/2007 05:27 PM, you wrote:
On 3/14/07, nj902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Another post suggested checking the frequency response of your
repeater. Definitely - do that. Try it a various deviations. You
may be surprised at how ugly it gets.
Sure would be nice to see ARRL labs do a
Then there's DTMF..
DTMF decoders HATE the high tone being louder than the low tone.
With pre-emphasized audio and a flat receiver, that's what you'll get.
In the telco world, this is called reverse twist.
Typical DTMF chips work over a 30dB range in amplitude.
If your DTMF decode shows any
skipp025 wrote:
But an over deviated new radio doesn't sound crappy in the typical
operators hands. It often sounds pretty darn good/loud. So the
mfgrs keep sending them out hot and few people complain about
it.
And repeaters which 'fix' the problem for them doesn't help, either.
Why yes, John, I believe there is.
- Original Message -
From: WD7F - John in Tucson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] ICM Crystals Off Frequency?
Doesn't the MSR-2000 use the crystal element
At 3/15/2007 09:48 AM, you wrote:
Then there is the adjacent channel interference they create. There
is nothing you can say that will convince me that any repeater can
solve that problem.
Wide doesn't always equal an interference problem.
..if your channel spacing is 20 or 25 kHz. At
When you ordered the crystals, did you specify that they were for a 1095A
element? If ICM assumed that they were for a 1088B (.0005%), that might
account for the difference maybe... maybe not ?
George, KA3HSW / WQGJ413
-Original Message-
From: Robin Midgett [EMAIL
Yes, you should de-emph the audio going to a DTMF deocder and autopatch,
and pre-emph the audio coming from the autopatch is using a flat audio
response system.
Joe M.
david vanhorn wrote:
Then there's DTMF..
DTMF decoders HATE the high tone being louder than the low tone.
With
Bingo!
Thanks George. That is exactly what happened. Apparently if I can
find a set (actually a pair; main back up) of the 5PPM elements I
will be in good shape.
At 01:43 PM 3/15/2007, you wrote:
When you ordered the crystals, did you specify that they were for a
1095A element? If ICM
At 3/15/2007 12:48 PM, you wrote:
Yes, you should de-emph the audio going to a DTMF deocder and autopatch,
and pre-emph the audio coming from the autopatch is using a flat audio
response system.
...hence the source of all the confusion: to build a flat audio response
system you need to put
Hi Guys:
A couple weeks ago, I asked whether anyone had a spare
internal harness for an IC-RP4020 UHF repeater. I found a
VHF unit and used it as parts.
After all the work of changing the wires around, I
find that the repeater has an output of only 3 watts.
I snapped the brick apart and found
At 12:06 AM 3/15/2007, you wrote:
Hi,
I need advise and recommendation from any of you repeater guru's
here and help me to choose between this two filter. Sinclair Q202GR or Q2220E?
---When in doubt, always go for the bigger cans. Then again, you
haven't said what kind of power you're
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So that's one vote for running pre-emphasized audio throughout the
controller.
To do that, all receivers must provide discriminator audio, and the
controller's internal tone generation and digital audio playback must
have pre-emphasis. The DTMF decoders must have
At 08:39 AM 03/15/07, you wrote:
Hi Mike,
I'd like to see a controller that has enough in it that all you need
to interface
to is discriminator audio and modulator audio. On the receive side it
could
have a Micor-type squelch and a de-emphasis network built with 1%
parts.Â
On the transmit
If you need the compact footprint go for the Q2220E. If size is not an
issue, I highly recommend the Q202 or Q201, especially for high power
operation.
Another good option, especially for a 600Khz split, is a Q2330E, 6
cavity. Stay away from the compact duplexers sinclair makes.
I use two
At 04:06 PM 3/15/2007, you wrote:
(A Q201 is a Q202 with a single bandpass cavity on each of the TX
and RX legs).
My Q201G has 3 Bp/Br cavities in each leg, not simply extra
bandpass cavities.
Ken
--
President and
Shorty,
I use GE Mastr II repeaters Mastr II mobiles for links. All these flat
audio modifications are a waste of time. We have over 4 hops of links.
The difference in simplex duplex audio, if any, ain't enough to worry
about. I don't understand the need to carve on perfectly good radios,
I have a Nice Coaxial Dynamics Wattmeter Like the bird and it uses the
same elements but nice Big Display for us older People.
Anyway it is Made very Well and not much RF gets out , So the question
is How can I make Something get a sample Of RF enough for the
Freq Counter to read . I was
Marconi RC690 is a 25w AM radio.
Perhaps thats why your rx audio is so bad,its slope detecting the FM.
You could use the radios just talking to each other on an AM only net...
Ian G8PWE
UK
- Original Message -
From: vince
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday,
Does anyone have a UHF Mastr III manual that you can sell to me?
Fred N4GER
Fred,
There is no one precise thing as a manual. Every radio made by GE was
delivered with a combination manual that comprised as many as 12 separate
LBI documents collected into one binder. Each of the individual LBIs was
selected, based upon the specific modules in the radio. Since each
Eric,
I understand all that. Any of them will have the shelf, the TX RX,
system module. Beggars can't be choosers. I can get started with about
anything.
Fred
-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Lemmon
Sent: Thursday,
At 06:05 PM 03/15/07, you wrote:
I have a Nice Coaxial Dynamics Wattmeter Like the bird and it uses the
same elements but nice Big Display for us older People.
Anyway it is Made very Well and not much RF gets out , So the question
is How can I make Something get a sample Of RF enough for the
At 06:05 PM 03/15/07, you wrote:
I have a Nice Coaxial Dynamics Wattmeter Like the bird and it uses the
same elements but nice Big Display for us older People.
Anyway it is Made very Well and not much RF gets out , So the question
is How can I make Something get a sample Of RF enough for the
Also Bird makes a element that has a bnc connector.
Fred N4GER
-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Morris WA6ILQ
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:33 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder]
Chuck,
You are absolutely correct! However, the specific resistor value used for
R405 in each MICOR station was deliberately selected to result in the
desired deviation level. Thus, the R405 resistor value (nominally 33 kohms)
varies from one station to the next. Note 409 on the schematic for
Yes, you have to make all the audio preemphasized (from the autopatch IF
USED) to match the user's audio which is preemphasized. I would not
phrase it as put de-emphasis on this that pre-emphasis that the
other since that also describes processed audio systems.
In most current configurations,
OK. Let me approach this from another angle. What is the deviation on
your system that is not the standard 5.0 kHz or so (running 16K0F3E)?
Joe M.
James wrote:
Yes, thank you Jim .. I did say channel steps not spacing. 2.5 Khz
channel step tends to go with 12.5 KHz channel spacing. 7.5
Yes, they do, and they are quite happy to charge over $100 for it.
In that article Kevin shows you how to do the same thing for
under $10.
Yes, it's uncalibrated, but a counter doesn't care.
And if you really want to get a calibration on your home-brew one,
it's not that hard to measure the
I see them a hamfests for less.
-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Morris WA6ILQ
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:41 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] RF Sampler
Yes, they do, and
At 3/15/2007 20:13, you wrote:
The point I made was that Alinco, among many other manufacturers, simply
used a certain value in almost every radio built, rather than a selected
value, with the assumption that it would result in enough CTCSS deviation.
As I pointed out, that value more often than
At 3/15/2007 20:18, you wrote:
Yes, you have to make all the audio preemphasized (from the autopatch IF
USED) to match the user's audio which is preemphasized. I would not
phrase it as put de-emphasis on this that pre-emphasis that the
other since that also describes processed audio systems.
Don,
I have been using UHF and N tees with the center conductor on one side
of the tee removed as RF sample ports for more than forty years. Also make
great way to inject RF into a system for receiver tests with the antenna and
other hardware in place. Cheap enough to leave in line for
I picked up a new Bird Sampling slug for $25.00 from a CB shop that
didn't know what it was. I just got lucky.
Paul Metzger
K6EH
Paul , the only reason You got that from the CB Shop it would ONLY handle
1500 Watts and they could not use it , Ha Ha
Thanks Back to Repeater Building
Don KA9QJG
On 3/15/07, Paul Metzger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I picked up a new Bird Sampling slug for $25.00 from a CB shop that
didn't know what it was. I just got lucky.
Paul Metzger
K6EH
Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.
:-)
Nate WY0X
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