[Repeater-Builder] Re: Mirage B-320-G as a Repeater Amp
Now that I am home from the hospital I can respond a bit better. The amp does fine without the duplexer inline. Full power and it follows the Mirage chart. But I had a thought (that's SCARY) I pulled out my seldom used MFJ 259 and dialed in my output. I plugged it into the duplexer TX side and noted that it reads 39 ohms. I disconnected the remaining two cans and attached a dummy load to the output of the can and still read 39 ohms. I'm not sure what conclusion to take from this. I mean, low tech! To your question about tripping, the amp has a relay when activated that deactivates when the SWR/Load light illuminates. One can then read the exciter power on the Mirage meter. Yes, it does not fault with a lower exciter level. We never intended to run the amp beyond roughly 40%. Thank you for your best wishes re: my daughter. She has had a tremendously bad week. The high dose chemo has burned her body and worse that I won't share. But she's a sick little 8 year old. http://princessrachael.com --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Jeff DePolo j...@... wrote: The grungy audio isn't related to the amp. Yes, I know, you said that. My question was whether the grunge was there whether or not the repeater transmitter was keyed. The TKR may be turned down to 20-30 watts and not trip the amp. By not trip, do you mean not key or not cause the amp to fault? I'm guessing the latter. What power output do you measure at 20-30 watts drive? The amp may easily be made continuous duty by driving it at a lower level and adding fans and blowing on it from an inch or so away, or by sucking on it. For the heck of it, I looked at Mirage's specs on their web site. They have a handy-dandy chart showing power in to power out. They're showing that with 25 watts of drive it puts out 165 watts. Doubling the drive to 50 watts, it puts out 200 watts. In other words, a 3 dB increase in drive is yielding only a 0.8 dB increase in output. That tells me you're way into saturation at 200 watts output. Now, saturation in class C is generally a good thing, but that's kind of pushing it. Looking at the power saturation profile, it seems to me that somewhere in the 150-175 watt range is really where that amp would seem to want to be run. And that's based on the intermittant mobile/HT kind of use it was designed for. I think you're only asking for trouble trying to run that amp continuous duty at 20-30 watts of drive no matter how much forced air cooling you push through the fins. We know that the repeater, amp and antenna play nicely and show a 1.1:1 SWR. It's just the duplexer and it appears that the tuning was not done based on the reference I was given earlier. But you said that the VSWR from the amp to the duplexer shows 1.1:1 and the cans are tuned right on the money, so why do you think the duplexer is the problem? Yes, it's a G6-144 and I typed in a state of near exhaustion. I'm living in a children's hospital with a seriously ill daughter. My best wishes for your harmonic. Again, without being there with a spectrum analyzer, it sure sounds like your Mirage is off wandering in the weeds. There's more to building a repeater-grade amplifier than just being able to make gobs of power... --- Jeff WN3A
[Repeater-Builder] Re: TKR-750 Crunchy/Grungy Weak Signal Audio
I have a DB224-E on order along with hard line and a receive filter and crystal assembly. It seems that I have a 147.435 high power remote with a 12 element beam and 600 watts aimed through me from 1.105MHz away and only two city blocks. The 435 repeater is legendary. We've picked up commitments for public safety nets throughout the week and I need to get as much done on a limited budget as possible. Funny thing, members don't pay to join the ARC UNTIL it is dialed and tweaked. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Kelsey wb2...@... wrote: Probably the LMR-400 cable is the cause. Well documented and discussed here regularly. Are the other repeaters with the same problem also using the same type cable? Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Bob - AF6D b...@... To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 4:46 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] TKR-750 Crunchy/Grungy Weak Signal Audio My 2 meter TKR has worked fine for about a year but has always had a problem on our frequent weak signals. We're a mountain community and CERT/RACES/ARES/Skywarn users are often on HT's. There are a couple of towers in the neighborhood at 6,400 feet over southern California (it's kewl living at a repeater site) and on my own gear I don't hear anything on a weak signal beyond the norm. But on the TKR it just sounds dirty. Grungy. Crunchy. There are commercial sites within one mile with high power paging but we've detected no intermod. We did have a bout were grungy audio was breaking PL and hanging until timeout. But that went away. The Wacom 6 cavity WP-642 is tuned dead on and offers excellent isolation and rejection (at a cost of 2-3dB loss on TX sigh). Another TKR user at a high elevation commercial site reports similar experiences. Yet another TKR owner reported that his is excellent and yes the audio is good. Just not for us on weak signals. He suggested perhaps an RFI issue but from where? Our installation is modest and constrained only by my lack of time and funds. My daughter is sick and I live in a hospital with her, so be gentle HI HI. The very large guard dog watches the house. The antenna is a Hustler G5-144 tuned with a MFJ 259, dead on and above the repeater through an insulated roof by about 30 feet. We have no desense. It is fed with LMR-400 just because I haven't put hard line on it. No preamps are installed. At 6,400 feet not much is needed. The receiver is .18uV. The TKR hears very well compared to my FT-847 with an antenna 20 feet lower. Why the grungy audio? Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3059 - Release Date: 08/08/10 13:57:00
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Sorry everyone
I haven't read all of the relies on this, but I also haven't read that there is proof that your computer actually sent the messages. All that is needed is your email address int he reply-to field in the message header and you get the blame. I own and operate a mid-sized web hosting company and we deal with spam issues daily. Recipients running anti-spam software that rejects and sends back to the real sender actually end up causing backscatter and getting their own IP blacklisted. SPAM will never end... --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Dave E Stephens Sr kf6...@... wrote: i would like to thank all of you for understanding. right after i sent out my original appology i figured out which computer might be sending the cause of this. not long ago i got mom a new HP laptop. She wanted a computer just so she could play a few games. well mom is what i call a techno-tard (didnt even know how to turn it on). Before i knew it, her friend got her on facebook playing farmville and who knows what. Its the WHO KNOWS WHAT that i am worried about.  not long ago the YL was over there on the computer, checking her email. next day i discovered her account sent out a similar email to what mine sent. i used it the day before yesterday and BAM, i discover the same email sent out.  There is no evidence of a message being sent in my sent box here on Yahoo BUT i got 2 replys saying they couldnt be delivered.  I was going to fix the issue yesterday but i got busy. AVG and Spybot SD will be installed a little later on today.  You know, its funny... i spend 8 to 12 hours a day, 6 to 7 days a week, dealing with this issue and others like that. For 16 years i have never had an account of mine hit till now. i am supprised it didnt hit sooner.  Thanks again everyone for understanding... 73's  Dave Stephens Sr KF6WJA Grants Pass Or    --- On Thu, 8/12/10, Mark Tomany n9...@... wrote: From: Mark Tomany n9...@... Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Sorry everyone To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, August 12, 2010, 6:51 AM  AVG Free anti-virus software also has a built-in spyware removal tool. I also use the ones George captioned below - and even I get bit every once in a while by some new bug.  It's amazing that so many people have the time on their hands to be able to propagate all this crap...  Mark - N9WYS --- On Wed, 8/11/10, George Henry wrote: Nonsense! Spybot Search Destroy, Ad-Aware, Malwarebytes Anti-Malware, and SuperAntiSpyware are all EXCELLENT free anti-spyware programs. I routinely use all 4 of them to clean up infections for people. No spyware in ANY of them and, between the four programs, I have yet to run into something I couldn't clean. George, KA3HSW / WQGJ413 - Original Message - From: Tim Sawyer Was your machine on while you were away? If so you may have gotten a virus or spyware. Sounds like your wife got it too. Spamers like to infect machines just to get control of them for sending spam. The really bad news is that most free spyware removal software is spyware itself. A really good PC guy might be able to remove it. Good luck man! -- Tim
[Repeater-Builder] Re: 50 Watt Repeater
Kind of a delayed reply here, but relevent. I bought my RC210 and TKR-750 from Ken and have run the low usage TKR at 50 watts with no ill effects. Even with moderate key downs it just doesn't get hot. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Ken Arck ah...@... wrote: At 08:36 AM 12/11/2009, NORM KNAPP wrote: Agreed, but here we have many '750's running at 50watts and have had no issues. Of course, they are not transmitting 24/7. As an Authorized Kenwood Dealer, we have a ton of TKR's that we sold into amateur service, running either 40 (UHF) or 50 (VHF) watts with no ill effects. Sure, they're not 24/7 keydown but since the redesigned PA, we simply don't see failures. And while we can't officially recommend it, we've never seen a problem from doing so. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
[Repeater-Builder] TKR-750 Crunchy/Grungy Weak Signal Audio
My 2 meter TKR has worked fine for about a year but has always had a problem on our frequent weak signals. We're a mountain community and CERT/RACES/ARES/Skywarn users are often on HT's. There are a couple of towers in the neighborhood at 6,400 feet over southern California (it's kewl living at a repeater site) and on my own gear I don't hear anything on a weak signal beyond the norm. But on the TKR it just sounds dirty. Grungy. Crunchy. There are commercial sites within one mile with high power paging but we've detected no intermod. We did have a bout were grungy audio was breaking PL and hanging until timeout. But that went away. The Wacom 6 cavity WP-642 is tuned dead on and offers excellent isolation and rejection (at a cost of 2-3dB loss on TX sigh). Another TKR user at a high elevation commercial site reports similar experiences. Yet another TKR owner reported that his is excellent and yes the audio is good. Just not for us on weak signals. He suggested perhaps an RFI issue but from where? Our installation is modest and constrained only by my lack of time and funds. My daughter is sick and I live in a hospital with her, so be gentle HI HI. The very large guard dog watches the house. The antenna is a Hustler G5-144 tuned with a MFJ 259, dead on and above the repeater through an insulated roof by about 30 feet. We have no desense. It is fed with LMR-400 just because I haven't put hard line on it. No preamps are installed. At 6,400 feet not much is needed. The receiver is .18uV. The TKR hears very well compared to my FT-847 with an antenna 20 feet lower. Why the grungy audio?
[Repeater-Builder] Mirage B-320-G as a Repeater Amp
Before adding a Mirage 320 our TKR 750 was putting out 50 watts into a 6 cavity Wacom WP-642 at the cost of 2-3dB loss on TX (as the spec sheet said.) The cans are tuned right on the money and the Hustler G5-144 fed with LMR-400 is 1.1:1. This has worked for over a year just fine (except for grungy weak signal audio.) Now add the Mirage B-320-G 200 watt amplifier. It seems to work just fine outside of the repeater chain. On its low setting 3 watts will drive it to 200 watts. On its high setting 50 watts will drive it to 200 watts. We plan on adding two fans on the heat sinks and rack mounting it and running it with only 25 watts drive. The power meter lights up all the way to the red. But as soon as we tune it all up and connect it to the duplexer the Mirage SWR/Drive trips and the amp goes to sleep. A SWR meter between the repeater and the amp shows 1.1:1. The amp to the duplexer shows 1.1:1. The duplexer to the antenna shows 1.1:1. I've lost my mojo. Waz up?
[Repeater-Builder] Re: TKR-750 Crunchy/Grungy Weak Signal Audio
No, they use hard line. Other suggestions is a repeater output 15KHz off of our input that is pulling the receive over. I've got hard line just no time. We were buried under snow for months and then when it cleared my daughter started chemo. No time. But I'll have to make time. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Kelsey wb2...@... wrote: Probably the LMR-400 cable is the cause. Well documented and discussed here regularly. Are the other repeaters with the same problem also using the same type cable? Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Bob - AF6D b...@... To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 4:46 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] TKR-750 Crunchy/Grungy Weak Signal Audio My 2 meter TKR has worked fine for about a year but has always had a problem on our frequent weak signals. We're a mountain community and CERT/RACES/ARES/Skywarn users are often on HT's. There are a couple of towers in the neighborhood at 6,400 feet over southern California (it's kewl living at a repeater site) and on my own gear I don't hear anything on a weak signal beyond the norm. But on the TKR it just sounds dirty. Grungy. Crunchy. There are commercial sites within one mile with high power paging but we've detected no intermod. We did have a bout were grungy audio was breaking PL and hanging until timeout. But that went away. The Wacom 6 cavity WP-642 is tuned dead on and offers excellent isolation and rejection (at a cost of 2-3dB loss on TX sigh). Another TKR user at a high elevation commercial site reports similar experiences. Yet another TKR owner reported that his is excellent and yes the audio is good. Just not for us on weak signals. He suggested perhaps an RFI issue but from where? Our installation is modest and constrained only by my lack of time and funds. My daughter is sick and I live in a hospital with her, so be gentle HI HI. The very large guard dog watches the house. The antenna is a Hustler G5-144 tuned with a MFJ 259, dead on and above the repeater through an insulated roof by about 30 feet. We have no desense. It is fed with LMR-400 just because I haven't put hard line on it. No preamps are installed. At 6,400 feet not much is needed. The receiver is .18uV. The TKR hears very well compared to my FT-847 with an antenna 20 feet lower. Why the grungy audio? Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3059 - Release Date: 08/08/10 13:57:00
[Repeater-Builder] Re: Mirage B-320-G as a Repeater Amp
The grungy audio isn't related to the amp. The TKR may be turned down to 20-30 watts and not trip the amp. The amp may easily be made continuous duty by driving it at a lower level and adding fans and blowing on it from an inch or so away, or by sucking on it. I like to use two 6 fans and they keep the amp cool. The 320 has its own fan on the bottom that pulls air in. We know that the repeater, amp and antenna play nicely and show a 1.1:1 SWR. It's just the duplexer and it appears that the tuning was not done based on the reference I was given earlier. We tuned for maximum output and isolation. Yes, it's a G6-144 and I typed in a state of near exhaustion. I'm living in a children's hospital with a seriously ill daughter. The LMR will go when the antenna is replaced with either a DB-224 or a Telewave before first snow. As I've indicated time is not on my side at the moment but I have time to ask questions of more experienced repeater operators and learn whiloe sitting here. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Jeff DePolo j...@... wrote: Before adding a Mirage 320 our TKR 750 was putting out 50 watts into a 6 cavity Wacom WP-642 at the cost of 2-3dB loss on TX (as the spec sheet said.) The cans are tuned right on the money and the Hustler G5-144 fed with LMR-400 is 1.1:1. I'm guessing that's a G6...? This has worked for over a year just fine (except for grungy weak signal audio.) Is that grungy weak signal audio with the repeater transmitter keyed, unkeyed, or both? Now add the Mirage B-320-G 200 watt amplifier. Egads. If you have problems without a high-power amplifier, seems only prudent that you should deal with those issues first... Unless I'm mistaken, the B-320G isn't a continuous-duty amp, is it? But as soon as we tune it all up and connect it to the duplexer the Mirage SWR/Drive trips and the amp goes to sleep. A SWR meter between the repeater and the amp shows 1.1:1. The amp to the duplexer shows 1.1:1. How do you know the VSWR is 1.1:1 between the PA and the duplexer if the amp shuts down before you can measure it? In other words, how do you know the amp isn't shutting down because it's going spurious, resulting in high reflected power coming back from the duplexer, tripping the VSWR overload? At the risk of disparaging a particular manufacturer in a public forum, my experience with Mirage repeater amps has been horrific. I wouldn't expect the results of one of their non-repeater amps pressed into repeater service to be any better... Before we go spelunking into the dark underworld of making your Mirage play nice, let's work on fixing your original noise problem. Start by answering the above questions and we can go from there... And for the love of John, get rid of the LMR400 before this turns into a Holy War. --- Jeff WN3A
[Repeater-Builder] db224 Down Tilt
Is it possible to order a new db224 with a down tilt harness? I've only found one other open dipole with down tilt and at three times the price. I run a high elevation repeater and we need to contour down below us.
