Re: [Rosegarden-user] Humanizing MIDI tracks

2016-04-18 Thread Silas Mortimer
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 3:59 AM, Lorenzo Sutton
 wrote:
> Not sure if this has been mentioned / is relevant, but in both matrix
> and notation editors you can 'jog' (move in time) by 1/32 increments
> selected notes with ALT + Right / ALT+Left - For certain scenarios this
> (using the keyboard) could speed up adjusting note onsets e.g. creating
> quick 'arpeggio' effects
> But of course YMMV :-)

I will definitely have to try that! Man, there's so much stuff to learn, lol.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Humanizing MIDI tracks

2016-04-18 Thread Abrolag
On Mon, 18 Apr 2016 10:59:58 +0200
Lorenzo Sutton  wrote:

> On 16/04/2016 16:59, Fernando A. Martin wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > 1 - For strumming arpeggiated chords: we can place each note of the
> > chord in a different segment and then set the delay of each segment. I
> > think this is faster than writing the whole chord in a single segment
> > and then changing the delay of each note individually.  
> 
> Not sure if this has been mentioned / is relevant, but in both matrix 
> and notation editors you can 'jog' (move in time) by 1/32 increments 
> selected notes with ALT + Right / ALT+Left - For certain scenarios this 
> (using the keyboard) could speed up adjusting note onsets e.g. creating 
> quick 'arpeggio' effects
> But of course YMMV :-)
> 
> Lorenzo.

You can also select and jog all the notes in a segment without changing the
segment's overall position - very useful for latency correction.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Humanizing MIDI tracks

2016-04-16 Thread Fernando A. Martin
I'm the one who some months ago asked for an automatic strummer/arpeggiator
function and also asked for a custom key signature creator. As Michael said
above he doesn't have plans to implement it by now.
So we have both ways to deal with by now:
1 - For strumming arpeggiated chords: we can place each note of the chord
in a different segment and then set the delay of each segment. I think this
is faster than writing the whole chord in a single segment and then
changing the delay of each note individually.
2 - For key signature: you can choose any key signature you want. Then if
you're going to input notes using mouse and keyboard, before typing a note
hold ctrl and then place the note and it'll be flat or before typing the
note hold shift and then place the note and it'll be sharp. (Currently I've
been writing arabic music then imagine how laborious it is write staves in
maqamat hijaz (D Eb F# G A Bb C D) or Saba (D Eb F Gb A bB C D) without
custom key signatures. The best way I found was to hold ctrl or shift.)

2016-04-14 8:16 GMT-03:00 :

> With respect to all the issues with respect to notation, compositional
> aids, humanized tracks, etc:
>
> I kinda hate to bring it up, but perhaps the RoseGarden developers should
> take a look at another Open Source project --- Impro-Visor
> and "lift a whole bunch of tools out of it.
>
> As computers continue to get more powerful, I can envisage the two
> projects merging.  Right now, nearly all professionals using Impro-Visor
> and the vast majority of students generate files they touch up and
> orchestrate in RoseGarden.
>
> Such an application would not be "thin", I've got around 2000 cores
> working on Impro-Visor routinely with another thousand or so readily
> available, so that is serious music AI.  RoseGarden then applies serious
> leverage to Impro-Visor results.
>
> OK, I've said it.  A live grenade in the room.
>
> Have fun,
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > On 14/04/2016 03:32, D. Michael McIntyre wrote:
> >> On 04/13/2016 06:52 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
> >>
> >>> No problem. I just need to work out how to add the arpeggio notation
> >>> in Lilypond.
> >>
> >> It's hacky and weird.  Use the text tool.  Choose type "LilyPond
> >> Directive" and insert an "Arp."
> >>
> >> That prints the squiggly arpeggio symbol on the score.  I never gave
> >> Rosegarden the ability to represent this natively, and no one else ever
> >> bothered either, so this is what we've got.  Hacky and weird.
> >
> > IMHO Rosegarden *shoud not* become / be a fully-fledged notation /
> > lilypond editor and focus on being the (great) free (as in freedom)
> > sequencer it is :)
> >
> > I mean, I don't want to bash discussions etc. about notation, but
> > Rosegarden already has some of the best notation support for any
> > sequencer around, and personally I would like to see (possible) effort
> > go into bugfixing and improvements in the sequencer / production
> > department.
> >
> > Randomization, 'humanisation', groove quantize etc. (the subject of the
> > thread) would be cool and are IMHO part of those possible improvements ;)
> >
> > Just my two cents :)
> > Lorenzo.
> >
> >
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Humanizing MIDI tracks

2016-04-14 Thread ram
With respect to all the issues with respect to notation, compositional
aids, humanized tracks, etc:

I kinda hate to bring it up, but perhaps the RoseGarden developers should
take a look at another Open Source project --- Impro-Visor
and "lift a whole bunch of tools out of it.

As computers continue to get more powerful, I can envisage the two
projects merging.  Right now, nearly all professionals using Impro-Visor
and the vast majority of students generate files they touch up and
orchestrate in RoseGarden.

Such an application would not be "thin", I've got around 2000 cores
working on Impro-Visor routinely with another thousand or so readily
available, so that is serious music AI.  RoseGarden then applies serious
leverage to Impro-Visor results.

OK, I've said it.  A live grenade in the room.

Have fun,



>
>
> On 14/04/2016 03:32, D. Michael McIntyre wrote:
>> On 04/13/2016 06:52 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>>
>>> No problem. I just need to work out how to add the arpeggio notation
>>> in Lilypond.
>>
>> It's hacky and weird.  Use the text tool.  Choose type "LilyPond
>> Directive" and insert an "Arp."
>>
>> That prints the squiggly arpeggio symbol on the score.  I never gave
>> Rosegarden the ability to represent this natively, and no one else ever
>> bothered either, so this is what we've got.  Hacky and weird.
>
> IMHO Rosegarden *shoud not* become / be a fully-fledged notation /
> lilypond editor and focus on being the (great) free (as in freedom)
> sequencer it is :)
>
> I mean, I don't want to bash discussions etc. about notation, but
> Rosegarden already has some of the best notation support for any
> sequencer around, and personally I would like to see (possible) effort
> go into bugfixing and improvements in the sequencer / production
> department.
>
> Randomization, 'humanisation', groove quantize etc. (the subject of the
> thread) would be cool and are IMHO part of those possible improvements ;)
>
> Just my two cents :)
> Lorenzo.
>
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Humanizing MIDI tracks

2016-04-13 Thread Silas Mortimer
On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 8:32 PM, D. Michael McIntyre
 wrote:
> On 04/13/2016 06:52 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>
>> No problem. I just need to work out how to add the arpeggio notation
>> in Lilypond.
>
> It's hacky and weird.  Use the text tool.  Choose type "LilyPond Directive"
> and insert an "Arp."

Thanks for the tip. I haven't figured out yet how to open a GUI for
it, which it seems like you're describing. I'll look that up.

> That prints the squiggly arpeggio symbol on the score.  I never gave
> Rosegarden the ability to represent this natively, and no one else ever
> bothered either, so this is what we've got.  Hacky and weird.

Better than nothing. In that piece I sent you, you probably know the
arpeggiation I'm talking about. It worked out pretty well using
sixteenth notes or whatever it was, don't you think? I could have used
something smaller for a faster arpeggio, as well.

> Somebody did a feature request for that fairly recently.  I have no plans to
> implement it myself.  Our key signature support model is based on the MIDI
> standard, tonic pitch, number of accidentals, major or minor.

All these years and I wish I had gotten into MIDI sooner. It used to
be super expensive, though. I remember that was part of what kept me
away.

> I did a little research, and Finale didn't support non-standard key
> signatures until 2009.  It had been under development for 21 years at that
> point.

Wow.

> Everything I've ever seen in D harmonic minor is just written with a D minor
> key signature and the sharps spelled out manually.

Yeah, I suppose that's better.

> Same thing with a keyboard though.  In my own work, if I'm focusing on the
> score, the performance is secondary.  If I'm focusing on the performance,
> the score is secondary.

I'm having trouble making myself just deal with one or the other, lol.
I suppose it just takes time and discipline.

> Sometimes I have two sets of parts in the same
> file, because even as good as Rosegarden is at letting you have a good
> performance and tidy notation, it isn't THAT good.

It's a LOT better than I expected I'd find, to be honest. It's
certainly not the pain in the butt it was when I first tried making
notation on a computer (which was a long time ago, of course, and I
did give up). If it sounds like I'm complaining a lot, trust me, I'm
really happy with what I've been doing. Maybe after I've used it
enough to take it for granted, I'll get annoyed by something, lol.

> Complication
> up the bazzoo, and math math math.  I don't know how to calculate no
> logarithmic dingleflummy Miss Scarlet, I is just a truck driver with a
> liberal arts degree.

I laughed out loud at that.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Humanizing MIDI tracks

2016-04-13 Thread Silas Mortimer
Ignore that last question. Since you're using the matrix editor, I
suppose it's entirely possible there, where I wouldn't be able to use
it via the notation editor.

On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Silas Mortimer  wrote:
> This is excellent! Good find! But tell me if I have this right: This
> only works across multiple staves, right? Meaning, if you're making a
> chord in a nonpercussion instrument, you couldn't use this method to
> arpeggiate the chord, right?
>
> If that's case, I wonder if it could be extended that way. In the
> piece I recently wrote here about, I made an arpeggio using 16th notes
> or something like that, but I'd rather leave the arpeggiation up to
> the musician.
>
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Fernando A. Martin
>  wrote:
>> I found this topic interesting. Once I tried to make a percussion ensemble
>> with several latin percussion instruments. But some different percussion
>> instruments when played at exactly the same time sound like a single
>> instrument. At that time I added some delay to some notes manually. It was a
>> laborious task. But recently I found an option that could do this quickly.
>> Select one or more segments, go to the left pane "special parameters" /
>> segment parameters / delay. Then choose the appropriate delay and all the
>> notes in the selected segments will be played with that delay. (See the
>> attached file. Measures 1-4 have no delay. Then hear the difference in
>> measures 5-8 with delay.)
>> What happens in a real ensemble is that musicians don't play their
>> instruments at exactly the same time. There's a delay of some mileseconds
>> from one to another. You can simulate this with the feature above. The
>> leading musician would start at the exact measure and others would receive
>> small delays. That combined with interpret function would create very
>> realistic music.
>>
>> 2016-03-29 8:06 GMT-03:00 Lorenzo Sutton :
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Further to the above, RoseGarden can use the Hydrogen drum synthesizer
>>> > so
>>> > if you are looking for just randomization of rhythm that would be a way
>>> > to
>>> > go.  On physical pitched instruments real humans don't actually make
>>> > "random" errors but instead tend to particular errors due to physical
>>> > difficulty of executing that part of the performance.
>>>
>>> I think there is a difference between systematic errors (e.g. a hard to
>>> play part, physical constraints of an intrument) or intentional
>>> deviations from what a sequencer reproduces when perfectly quantizing
>>> (e.g. rallentando, crescendo, sforzando...) and the 'natural' randomness
>>> in tempo and velocity deriving from a human playing.
>>>
>>> Ideally the former should be intentially 'programmed' in the MIDI
>>> writing on a sequencer. The second can be addressed by adding some
>>> randomness in tempo (note onsets, duration) and velocity.
>>>
>>> Hence the use of
>>> > "Amateur" soundfonts when one wants to simulate a high school band or
>>> > drunken performers.
>>>
>>> I think that it's much easier to do some randombess by hand in the
>>> matrix editor in Rosegarden than editing a soundfont to get that effect.
>>> It wouldn't be that hard to implement a live 'randomizer' e.g. in Pure
>>> Data but then you'd have to playback the midi and re-record it in
>>> Rosegarden which would be a bit cumbersome.
>>>  From a meta-programming/logical point of view randomization isn't that
>>> hard, once you establish the max randomisation (maybe a percentage of
>>> something) you just cycle through all notes and change e.g. note onset.
>>> I know easier said than done, but I'm sure some of the code which
>>> already does bulk operations on selected notes (e.g. velocity changes)
>>> could be reused? :)
>>>
>>> Of course a humanizer/randomiser could be part of a wider 'groove
>>> quantize' feature for Rosegarden, but I imagine that would be rather
>>> complicated.
>>>
>>> Lorenzo.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Humanizing MIDI tracks

2016-04-13 Thread Fernando A. Martin
I found this topic interesting. Once I tried to make a percussion ensemble
with several latin percussion instruments. But some different percussion
instruments when played at exactly the same time sound like a single
instrument. At that time I added some delay to some notes manually. It was
a laborious task. But recently I found an option that could do this
quickly. Select one or more segments, go to the left pane "special
parameters" / segment parameters / delay. Then choose the appropriate delay
and all the notes in the selected segments will be played with that delay.
(See the attached file. Measures 1-4 have no delay. Then hear the
difference in measures 5-8 with delay.)
What happens in a real ensemble is that musicians don't play their
instruments at exactly the same time. There's a delay of some mileseconds
from one to another. You can simulate this with the feature above. The
leading musician would start at the exact measure and others would receive
small delays. That combined with interpret function would create very
realistic music.

2016-03-29 8:06 GMT-03:00 Lorenzo Sutton :

>
>
>
> >
> > Further to the above, RoseGarden can use the Hydrogen drum synthesizer so
> > if you are looking for just randomization of rhythm that would be a way
> to
> > go.  On physical pitched instruments real humans don't actually make
> > "random" errors but instead tend to particular errors due to physical
> > difficulty of executing that part of the performance.
>
> I think there is a difference between systematic errors (e.g. a hard to
> play part, physical constraints of an intrument) or intentional
> deviations from what a sequencer reproduces when perfectly quantizing
> (e.g. rallentando, crescendo, sforzando...) and the 'natural' randomness
> in tempo and velocity deriving from a human playing.
>
> Ideally the former should be intentially 'programmed' in the MIDI
> writing on a sequencer. The second can be addressed by adding some
> randomness in tempo (note onsets, duration) and velocity.
>
> Hence the use of
> > "Amateur" soundfonts when one wants to simulate a high school band or
> > drunken performers.
>
> I think that it's much easier to do some randombess by hand in the
> matrix editor in Rosegarden than editing a soundfont to get that effect.
> It wouldn't be that hard to implement a live 'randomizer' e.g. in Pure
> Data but then you'd have to playback the midi and re-record it in
> Rosegarden which would be a bit cumbersome.
>  From a meta-programming/logical point of view randomization isn't that
> hard, once you establish the max randomisation (maybe a percentage of
> something) you just cycle through all notes and change e.g. note onset.
> I know easier said than done, but I'm sure some of the code which
> already does bulk operations on selected notes (e.g. velocity changes)
> could be reused? :)
>
> Of course a humanizer/randomiser could be part of a wider 'groove
> quantize' feature for Rosegarden, but I imagine that would be rather
> complicated.
>
> Lorenzo.
>
>
> --
> Transform Data into Opportunity.
> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
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delay.rg
Description: audio/rosegarden
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Humanizing MIDI tracks

2016-03-29 Thread Lorenzo Sutton



>
> Further to the above, RoseGarden can use the Hydrogen drum synthesizer so
> if you are looking for just randomization of rhythm that would be a way to
> go.  On physical pitched instruments real humans don't actually make
> "random" errors but instead tend to particular errors due to physical
> difficulty of executing that part of the performance.

I think there is a difference between systematic errors (e.g. a hard to 
play part, physical constraints of an intrument) or intentional 
deviations from what a sequencer reproduces when perfectly quantizing 
(e.g. rallentando, crescendo, sforzando...) and the 'natural' randomness 
in tempo and velocity deriving from a human playing.

Ideally the former should be intentially 'programmed' in the MIDI 
writing on a sequencer. The second can be addressed by adding some 
randomness in tempo (note onsets, duration) and velocity.

Hence the use of
> "Amateur" soundfonts when one wants to simulate a high school band or
> drunken performers.

I think that it's much easier to do some randombess by hand in the 
matrix editor in Rosegarden than editing a soundfont to get that effect. 
It wouldn't be that hard to implement a live 'randomizer' e.g. in Pure 
Data but then you'd have to playback the midi and re-record it in 
Rosegarden which would be a bit cumbersome.
 From a meta-programming/logical point of view randomization isn't that 
hard, once you establish the max randomisation (maybe a percentage of 
something) you just cycle through all notes and change e.g. note onset. 
I know easier said than done, but I'm sure some of the code which 
already does bulk operations on selected notes (e.g. velocity changes) 
could be reused? :)

Of course a humanizer/randomiser could be part of a wider 'groove 
quantize' feature for Rosegarden, but I imagine that would be rather 
complicated.

Lorenzo.

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Humanizing MIDI tracks

2016-03-27 Thread Steve Conrad
Two good things to randomize are timing and velocity, obviously.

Note velocities can be tweeked in the velocity ruler to get a faux random 
effect.

The start time and duration of notes can be given individual micro-adjustments 
in the note properties pop up. Pushing the tempo or just plain screwing it up 
can easily be replicated in this manner.

Maybe more labour intensive than one would hope, but certainly enough to breath 
some life into the rendering.

Playing with the pitch ruler can also get some of the starch out of a midi 
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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Humanizing MIDI tracks

2016-03-27 Thread ram

>
> On 25.03.2016 09:00, r...@hydrophones.com wrote:
>> The "interpret" function under the notation editor in the menu "adjust"
>> probably will do what you want, at least if you want your piece to sound
>> like it was played by human orchestral professionals.
>
> No, I am afraid that will not be enough.
>
>
>> If you want something more "amateur" that can also be achieved but by
>> using an
>> appropriate "amateur" soundfont or making one of your own with a bit of
>> editing using Swami.
>
> Uh, that would be a stretch for just getting some randomness in there.
>
>
> I think I'll just go with Cubase for this task. On the FLOSS side I hear
> Qtractor has something like it, so I might also give that a shot.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Florian
>

Further to the above, RoseGarden can use the Hydrogen drum synthesizer so
if you are looking for just randomization of rhythm that would be a way to
go.  On physical pitched instruments real humans don't actually make
"random" errors but instead tend to particular errors due to physical
difficulty of executing that part of the performance.  Hence the use of
"Amateur" soundfonts when one wants to simulate a high school band or
drunken performers.




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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Humanizing MIDI tracks

2016-03-27 Thread Florian Berger
Hi Rich,

thanks for the reply.

On 25.03.2016 09:00, r...@hydrophones.com wrote:
> The "interpret" function under the notation editor in the menu "adjust"
> probably will do what you want, at least if you want your piece to sound
> like it was played by human orchestral professionals.

No, I am afraid that will not be enough.


> If you want something more "amateur" that can also be achieved but by using an
> appropriate "amateur" soundfont or making one of your own with a bit of
> editing using Swami.

Uh, that would be a stretch for just getting some randomness in there.


I think I'll just go with Cubase for this task. On the FLOSS side I hear
Qtractor has something like it, so I might also give that a shot.

Thanks,

Florian


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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Humanizing MIDI tracks

2016-03-25 Thread D. Michael McIntyre
On 03/25/2016 03:47 AM, Florian Berger wrote:

> Does Rosegarden have any randomizing features for MIDI tracks, or any
> other features to make MIDI arrangements sound more human?

You haven't missed discovering anything.

-- 
D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: [Rosegarden-user] Humanizing MIDI tracks

2016-03-25 Thread ram
The "interpret" function under the notation editor in the menu "adjust"
probably will do what you want, at least if you want your piece to sound
like it was played by human orchestral professionals.  If you want
something more "amateur" that can also be achieved but by using an
appropriate "amateur" soundfont or making one of your own with a bit of
editing using Swami.

Regards,

Rich Marschall




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