Re: [Scid-users] Scid.eco
Hello, 25 years ago when Chess Informator published the most important chess books and Chessbase started there was no other way to find games than to have a classification system like ECO or an opening tree like Chessbase. Today the help pages of Chessbase tells us not to use them anymore and use the position search mechanism instead. Performance of computers grew much faster than the number of games in databases and so searching the games for a position is much faster than searching in opening trees. I am sure no Profi is using ECO anymore. Gerd Lorscheid -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Gregor Cramer [mailto:rema...@gmx.net] Gesendet: Samstag, 19. April 2014 14:43 An: f...@libero.it; scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Scid.eco Hi Fulvio, I've very dumb about the eco codes. The ECO codes are not very useful, but some people are believing in this code, especially the so called Profis, and so it seems that it is unavoidable to display these unfortunate ECO codes. For example, the A26 code in the link you posted: every game that starts with 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g61. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 is ECO A26? Every game starting with 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.d3 should be assigned to A26, and also all games derived from this move sequence. And if so, what is the meaning of the second line 4. Bg2 Bg7 5.d3? 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.d3 is one line, I think that your email reader is not showing the line breaks correctly. Please have a look into the file scid.eco. Note that a two-liner A25 English: Closed, 5.d3 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.d3 * has to be read as one line (1. ECO code; 2. name of this line; 3. 'normalized' move order of this line; 4. result *). About the A00 - A06 code: how transpositions are managed? That's the unclear thing in ECO. So ChessBase assigns 1.f4 e5 2.d4 to A02, and 1.d4 e5 2.f4 to A40, but Scidb assigns both lines to A02. I think that the handling of ChessBase is confusing, Scidb is going a different way. The inventor of this ECO code, Sahovski Informator, does not give any rules about the handling of move transpositions. Therefore it's important that the user can overrule the automatic assignment of the code. Scid, and also Scidb, allows this. To classify a game it's used the longest matching line, or it's required to build the final positions of ECO lines and check if the game reached that position? This is unclear, ChessBase is using both methods, it depends on the line, but Scidb is unexceptional using a position match (the move transposition independent way). The current algorithm of Scid is a position match. Scid is traversing the main line of the game backwards until a position match with an ECO position occurs. I would like to have consistent ECO classification between scid and scidb Shane has invented his own ECO classifications like A00a, A00b, and so on, but this is unique to Scid, and Scidb does not use this. Scidb is using a private ECO classification table. Furthermore Scidb's handling is to search for the ECO forward (not backward), because the classification will be used for the position search acceleration, a backward search is not possible in this case. And currently I'm overworking the ECO table in a way that a forward search will find all move transpositions (played in practice). So I think that a 100% match between Scid and Scidb about the ECO classification is not possible. But I think that it should be possible to use common names for the chess variants, for example Scidb is using Zukertort Opening for the opening 1.Nf3, not Reti, because the Reti system is the move order 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4. But the name handling in Scidb is not yet the last word, currently a volunteer is working on Scidb's ECO table, his goal is that Scidb will use the best known names for each named variation. But this task is time confusing, I don't think that he will finish before end of year. (and possibibly with other chess open source software too) And ChessBase is going his own (confusing) way. could you write an email to chess informant asking for clarifications? Not necessary, the classification of 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.d3 to A26 is clear - see http://www.chessinformant.rs/content/eco/eco_a/eco_a2.html. And the decision about the move transposition handling is private to every application. In fact the ECO code of Chess Informant is a private invention of the company Sahovski Informator, but everybody is using this code for any reason. (In Scidb it is planned to provide information which is more related to the well known chess variants - like Spanish: Berlin Defence - and the ECO code is only an unavoidable extra information.) Hope that this information is useful. Happy Easter, Gregor -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases
Re: [Scid-users] Scid.eco
Joost 't Hart joost.t.h...@planet.nl writes: Personally I still like to see the codes in a written player report. me too. -- :: Igor Sosa Mayor :: joseleopoldo1...@gmail.com :: :: GnuPG: 0x1C1E2890 :: http://www.gnupg.org/ :: :: jabberid: rogorido :::: -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech ___ Scid-users mailing list Scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/scid-users
Re: [Scid-users] Scid.eco
Zukertort Opening for the opening 1.Nf3, not Reti, because the Reti system is the move order 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4. I thought Zukertort was 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 (à la Kramnik) , while Réti was 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4, the Nimzo-Larsen could be obtained through 1. Nf3 and 2. b3. Since 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 leads to the English opening, 2. b4 is an Orangoutang and 1.Nf3 c5 2. e4 is a Sicilian, I'd say that 1. Nf3 is simply 1. Nf3. A related and interesting quandary is the King's Indian attack. Does it go in the French defense? -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech___ Scid-users mailing list Scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/scid-users
Re: [Scid-users] Scid.eco
The opening is determined by playing a game backward. The first classified position found in the game determines the opening. For something usable you need probably 1000 of these positions. Nf3 d5 c4 is not Reti, if for example white plays d4 somewhere in the next moves. Gerd Von: Ben St-Pierre [mailto:benbon...@gmail.com] Gesendet: Samstag, 19. April 2014 16:17 An: Scid Users List Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Scid.eco Zukertort Opening for the opening 1.Nf3, not Reti, because the Reti system is the move order 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4. I thought Zukertort was 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 (à la Kramnik) , while Réti was 1. Nf3 d5 2. c4, the Nimzo-Larsen could be obtained through 1. Nf3 and 2. b3. Since 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 leads to the English opening, 2. b4 is an Orangoutang and 1.Nf3 c5 2. e4 is a Sicilian, I'd say that 1. Nf3 is simply 1. Nf3. A related and interesting quandary is the King's Indian attack. Does it go in the French defense? -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech___ Scid-users mailing list Scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/scid-users
Re: [Scid-users] Scid.eco
The opening is determined by playing a game backward I agree: the last theorical position classifies the game. Nf3 d5 c4 is not Reti, if for example white plays d4 somewhere in the next moves. The argument is too strong: 1. e4 c5 would not be a Sicilian because one can transpose into a King's Indian attack, an English opening (2.c4), or else. That we have decided that an accelerated Dragon is a Sicilian is more a matter of convention than anything else. In any case, this tends to argue that it would be simpler to agree that all ECO variants with only first moves should be nameless. That only leaves us with games like 1. c4 1-0, Fischer c. Najdorf. Does it really matter if we don't say that this is an English opening? *** Another solution would be to interpret first moves not as openings per se, but as move orders. There would be the Réti move order, the Zukertort move order, etc. Move orders are the bread and butter of many grand-masters. It is a pity we have no way to capture that knowledge. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech___ Scid-users mailing list Scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/scid-users
Re: [Scid-users] scid.eco
Charly Founès wrote: Hi! Thanks for the information. It is not clear yet for me as I am not copying or modifying an application, I just need some information in it. I'd like to use the eco file content as a text but not as an active part of an application. I'll do my own scripting with that information and do something completely different from Scid. If it is too complicated, may be someone know where I can get the eco detailed description on the web (eco code, opening name, moves) and use it freely. I agree with Fulvio. Being no lawyer either (luckily) I think everything is fine as long as your code stays in GPL, though I'm not even sure it's a requirement. So, just go along do your stuff. :) It would be nice if you state that the information provided it from Scid. Not only cause it would be nice to the project but, as the Scid ECO uses an extension to the usual ECO even your users would surely like to know where the all those funny characters come from. -- Kind regards,/ War is Peace. |Freedom is Slavery. Alexander Wagner| Ignorance is Strength. | | Theory : G. Orwell, 1984 / In practice: USA, since 2001 -- Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Scid-users mailing list Scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/scid-users
Re: [Scid-users] scid.eco
So it is already there http://cf29.com/design/chess_openings_eng.php Please check it out. I didn't use the extended Scid eco though. On 22 mars 2010, at 19:20, Alexander Wagner wrote: Charly Founès wrote: Hi! Thanks for the information. It is not clear yet for me as I am not copying or modifying an application, I just need some information in it. I'd like to use the eco file content as a text but not as an active part of an application. I'll do my own scripting with that information and do something completely different from Scid. If it is too complicated, may be someone know where I can get the eco detailed description on the web (eco code, opening name, moves) and use it freely. I agree with Fulvio. Being no lawyer either (luckily) I think everything is fine as long as your code stays in GPL, though I'm not even sure it's a requirement. So, just go along do your stuff. :) It would be nice if you state that the information provided it from Scid. Not only cause it would be nice to the project but, as the Scid ECO uses an extension to the usual ECO even your users would surely like to know where the all those funny characters come from. -- Kind regards,/ War is Peace. |Freedom is Slavery. Alexander Wagner| Ignorance is Strength. | | Theory : G. Orwell, 1984 / In practice: USA, since 2001 -- Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Scid-users mailing list Scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/scid-users
Re: [Scid-users] scid.eco
Charly Founès wrote: Greetings, I sent a message to Shane Hudson but I heard that he isn't working for Scid anymore so I'll ask here as well. Is it possible to use the data in scid.eco? I created a MySQL database for php practice with the content of this file, I use the eco code, opening name and moves. I find it very convenient to do text searches especially with the opening names. I thought it might be useful for chess players and I would like to put it on my website where I created some other scripts concerning chess. ( http://cf29.com/design/index_eng.php) I found Copyright (C) 1999-2003 Shane Hudson (@users.sourceforge.net) in the scid.eco file. It's the standard way to give credit to the people who contributed to the program. Scid is under a GPL license so I don't know what to do. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-howto.html I think it would be useful to add the standard copying permission statement in every source file to avoid confusion: # This file is part of Scid (Shane's Chess Information Database). # # Scid is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify # it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by # the Free Software Foundation. # # Scid is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, # but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of # MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the # GNU General Public License for more details. # # You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License # along with Scid. If not, see http://www.gnu.org/licenses/. May I put my script and the database online to make it available to the public? What do you think? http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLRequireSourcePostedPublic With GPL you can always use the code, but if you distribute a derivative work you need to release it under a compatible license. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#WhatDoesCompatMean Bye, Fulvio -- Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Scid-users mailing list Scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/scid-users
Re: [Scid-users] scid.eco
Thanks for the information. It is not clear yet for me as I am not copying or modifying an application, I just need some information in it. I'd like to use the eco file content as a text but not as an active part of an application. I'll do my own scripting with that information and do something completely different from Scid. If it is too complicated, may be someone know where I can get the eco detailed description on the web (eco code, opening name, moves) and use it freely. Best regards, Charly Founès On 19 mars 2010, at 17:50, Fulvio wrote: Charly Founès wrote: Greetings, I sent a message to Shane Hudson but I heard that he isn't working for Scid anymore so I'll ask here as well. Is it possible to use the data in scid.eco? I created a MySQL database for php practice with the content of this file, I use the eco code, opening name and moves. I find it very convenient to do text searches especially with the opening names. I thought it might be useful for chess players and I would like to put it on my website where I created some other scripts concerning chess. ( http://cf29.com/design/index_eng.php) I found Copyright (C) 1999-2003 Shane Hudson (@users.sourceforge.net) in the scid.eco file. It's the standard way to give credit to the people who contributed to the program. Scid is under a GPL license so I don't know what to do. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-howto.html I think it would be useful to add the standard copying permission statement in every source file to avoid confusion: # This file is part of Scid (Shane's Chess Information Database). # # Scid is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify # it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by # the Free Software Foundation. # # Scid is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, # but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of # MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the # GNU General Public License for more details. # # You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License # along with Scid. If not, see http://www.gnu.org/licenses/. May I put my script and the database online to make it available to the public? What do you think? http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLRequireSourcePostedPublic With GPL you can always use the code, but if you distribute a derivative work you need to release it under a compatible license. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#WhatDoesCompatMean Bye, Fulvio -- Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Scid-users mailing list Scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/scid-users
Re: [Scid-users] scid.eco
Charly Founès wrote: Thanks for the information. It is not clear yet for me as I am not copying or modifying an application, I just need some information in it. I'd like to use the eco file content as a text but not as an active part of an application. I'll do my own scripting with that information and do something completely different from Scid. I'm not a lawyer, but in my opinion you can use it without problems if you release your script under the GPL licence or if you don't release your script at all (for example using it only on your own website). Bye, Fulvio -- Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Scid-users mailing list Scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/scid-users
Re: [Scid-users] scid.eco
Charly Founès wrote: Hi! I sent a message to Shane Hudson but I heard that he isn't working for Scid anymore so I'll ask here as well. Is it possible to use the data in scid.eco? I created a MySQL database for php practice with the content of this file, I use the eco code, opening name and moves. I find it very convenient to do text searches especially with the opening names. I thought it might be useful for chess players and I would like to put it on my website where I created some other scripts concerning chess. ( http://cf29.com/design/index_eng.php) I found Copyright (C) 1999-2003 Shane Hudson (@users.sourceforge.net) in the scid.eco file. Scid is under a GPL license so I don't know what to do. May I put my script and the database online to make it available to the public? What do you think? Please CC to me in your reply. To the best of my knowledge it is GPL and you may use the file according to GPL. -- Kind regards,/ War is Peace. |Freedom is Slavery. Alexander Wagner| Ignorance is Strength. | | Theory : G. Orwell, 1984 / In practice: USA, since 2001 -- Download Intel#174; Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev ___ Scid-users mailing list Scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/scid-users
Re: [Scid-users] Scid.eco B98n Sicilian Najdorf bug...
Hans Eriksson wrote: Hi! I have looked at the B98n Sicilian Najdorf line and seen this: [...] with the footnotes 13-48 on page 257-259 covering alternative moves after 9 O-O-O Nbd7 , so : B98n Sicilian: Najdorf, 8...Qc7 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Be7 8.Qf3 Qc7 * B98n Sicilian: Najdorf, 8...Qc7 9.O-O-O 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Be7 8.Qf3 Qc7 9.O-O-O Nc6 * in scid.eco should be B98n Sicilian: Najdorf, 8...Qc7 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Be7 8.Qf3 Qc7 9.O-O-O Nbd7 * Some other user came up (by PM) with the following solution to the problem: B98n Sicilian: Najdorf, 8...Qc7 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Be7 8.Qf3 Qc7 * B98n Sicilian: Najdorf, 8...Qc7 9.O-O-O 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Be7 8.Qf3 Qc7 9.O-O-O * How about this? 9...Nbd7 should then probably be included in the second B98n? (I can do only formal checking here, both of your solution give valid epd files after conversion. The rest of these details here is a bit beyond me ;) Many thanks for the huge amount of work to both contributors! -- Kind regards,/ War is Peace. |Freedom is Slavery. Alexander Wagner| Ignorance is Strength. | | Theory : G. Orwell, 1984 / In practice: USA, since 2001 -- SF.Net email is Sponsored by MIX09, March 18-20, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada. The future of the web can't happen without you. Join us at MIX09 to help pave the way to the Next Web now. Learn more and register at http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;208669438;13503038;i?http://2009.visitmix.com/ ___ Scid-users mailing list Scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/scid-users
