Re: [Simh] Various

[Johnny Billquist]

It's still all stuck with HP...
And unfortunately, at the moment I can't seem to raise Dave. :-(

  Johnny

On 2020-02-15 02:09, Paul Koning wrote:

Apart from "no because it's not open source" there is also "no, because DEC didn't use source 
control like that".  Late in the RSTS development there was a very primitive source control system that 
understood the notion of checking out a file in the sense of reserving it.  But that tool (known as 
"MOM") was not a revision control system that tracked deltas.

I wonder if XX2477 LLC could be talked into opening up the sources of the 
software they own.

paul


On Feb 14, 2020, at 5:26 PM, Stigall, BJ - Junk Mail  
wrote:

Is there an archive of source code for RT11, RSTS and other PDP operating 
software (with comments, hopefully)?


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Re: [Simh] Various

[Paul Koning]

Apart from "no because it's not open source" there is also "no, because DEC 
didn't use source control like that".  Late in the RSTS development there was a 
very primitive source control system that understood the notion of checking out 
a file in the sense of reserving it.  But that tool (known as "MOM") was not a 
revision control system that tracked deltas.

I wonder if XX2477 LLC could be talked into opening up the sources of the 
software they own.

paul

> On Feb 14, 2020, at 5:26 PM, Stigall, BJ - Junk Mail 
>  wrote:
> 
> Is there an archive of source code for RT11, RSTS and other PDP operating 
> software (with comments, hopefully)?

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Re: [Simh] Various

[Johnny Billquist]

Nope. Because it's still proprietary.

  Johnny

On 2020-02-14 23:26, Stigall, BJ - Junk Mail wrote:

Is there an archive of source code for RT11, RSTS and other PDP operating 
software (with comments, hopefully)?

-Original Message-
From: Simh  On Behalf Of Ken Hall
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2020 3:45 PM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] Various

I don't recall it ever working, and I've fooled with it on and off for over 10 
years.

Be nice to find out why it doesn't after all this time though.  Haven't had a 
chance to try the last few suggestions.


-Original Message-
From: Simh  On Behalf Of Bob Supnik
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 7:51 AM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] Various

1. I can confirm that RT11 V5.3 INIT does not work properly with an RL02 in 
3.10.

My next step is to trace back changes, because I think it used to work.

2. There's no card reader for the SDS 940 because

a) I hate card readers (from having used them way back when)
b) I thought there wouldn't be any demand

Rich Cornwell's library should make it easier to implement a card reader these 
days.

My first card reader story goes back to an RCA Spectra 70 I used in 1965.
It had a vacuum pick reader for high speed operation. The reader would 
gradually curl the front edge of the cards, so that after two or three passes, 
the deck was unreadable. It's failure mode was to spit cards out, past the 
receive hopper, at very high velocity and scatter them ten or fifteen feet out 
on the floor...

The second was a very slow mechanical reader on a PDP-7 in 1966. The only other 
keyboard device was a Teletype, so initial entry of programs was done from 
punched cards. It read, allegedly, 100 cards per minute using mechanical 
fingers with little star wheels on the end. DEC field service was in almost 
every week tuning or fixing the damned thing so that it could actually handle a 
decent-sized deck.

In my experience, only IBM built decent card readers. The reader/punch on the 
1620 (I used one in 1964) was very sturdy, and the 407 (used for offline 
printing of punched card output) could read almost anything.

/Bob


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Re: [Simh] Various

[Stigall, BJ - Junk Mail]

Is there an archive of source code for RT11, RSTS and other PDP operating 
software (with comments, hopefully)?

-Original Message-
From: Simh  On Behalf Of Ken Hall
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2020 3:45 PM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] Various

I don't recall it ever working, and I've fooled with it on and off for over 10 
years.

Be nice to find out why it doesn't after all this time though.  Haven't had a 
chance to try the last few suggestions.


-Original Message-
From: Simh  On Behalf Of Bob Supnik
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 7:51 AM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] Various

1. I can confirm that RT11 V5.3 INIT does not work properly with an RL02 in 
3.10.

My next step is to trace back changes, because I think it used to work.

2. There's no card reader for the SDS 940 because

a) I hate card readers (from having used them way back when)
b) I thought there wouldn't be any demand

Rich Cornwell's library should make it easier to implement a card reader these 
days.

My first card reader story goes back to an RCA Spectra 70 I used in 1965.
It had a vacuum pick reader for high speed operation. The reader would 
gradually curl the front edge of the cards, so that after two or three passes, 
the deck was unreadable. It's failure mode was to spit cards out, past the 
receive hopper, at very high velocity and scatter them ten or fifteen feet out 
on the floor...

The second was a very slow mechanical reader on a PDP-7 in 1966. The only other 
keyboard device was a Teletype, so initial entry of programs was done from 
punched cards. It read, allegedly, 100 cards per minute using mechanical 
fingers with little star wheels on the end. DEC field service was in almost 
every week tuning or fixing the damned thing so that it could actually handle a 
decent-sized deck.

In my experience, only IBM built decent card readers. The reader/punch on the 
1620 (I used one in 1964) was very sturdy, and the 407 (used for offline 
printing of punched card output) could read almost anything.

/Bob


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Re: [Simh] Various

[Ken Hall]

I don't recall it ever working, and I've fooled with it on and off for over 10 
years.

Be nice to find out why it doesn't after all this time though.  Haven't had a 
chance to try the last few suggestions.


-Original Message-
From: Simh  On Behalf Of Bob Supnik
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 7:51 AM
To: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] Various

1. I can confirm that RT11 V5.3 INIT does not work properly with an RL02 in 
3.10.

My next step is to trace back changes, because I think it used to work.

2. There's no card reader for the SDS 940 because

a) I hate card readers (from having used them way back when)
b) I thought there wouldn't be any demand

Rich Cornwell's library should make it easier to implement a card reader these 
days.

My first card reader story goes back to an RCA Spectra 70 I used in 1965.
It had a vacuum pick reader for high speed operation. The reader would 
gradually curl the front edge of the cards, so that after two or three passes, 
the deck was unreadable. It's failure mode was to spit cards out, past the 
receive hopper, at very high velocity and scatter them ten or fifteen feet out 
on the floor...

The second was a very slow mechanical reader on a PDP-7 in 1966. The only other 
keyboard device was a Teletype, so initial entry of programs was done from 
punched cards. It read, allegedly, 100 cards per minute using mechanical 
fingers with little star wheels on the end. DEC field service was in almost 
every week tuning or fixing the damned thing so that it could actually handle a 
decent-sized deck.

In my experience, only IBM built decent card readers. The reader/punch on the 
1620 (I used one in 1964) was very sturdy, and the 407 (used for offline 
printing of punched card output) could read almost anything.

/Bob


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Re: [Simh] Various

[Bob Eager]

Also not survived...

We had an NCR Elliott 4130, but when the CS degree started, the
students (four in the initial year) had a PDP-11 for various things.
One of the staff wrote an assembler AND a simulator to run on the 4130,
to reduce the need fro the real machine. It obviously helped with
debugging too.

On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 09:10:41 -0500
Paul Koning  wrote:

> > On Feb 14, 2020, at 3:03 AM, Lars Brinkhoff  wrote:
> > 
> > Paul Koning wrote:  
> >> It was pretty weird in that it ran a PDP-11 simulator (on the
> >> PDP-11) so students could write something approximating bare-metal
> >> software but get some debugging help if things go wrong.
> >> 
> >> They moved that course to CDC, and I helped write the analogous
> >> thing for our Cyber (a Cyber emulator on Cyber).  
> > 
> > Those sound marvellous.  I don't suppose either of them has
> > survived?  
> 
> No, unfortunately not.
> 
>   paul
> 
> 
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 14, 2020, at 3:03 AM, Lars Brinkhoff  wrote:
> 
> Paul Koning wrote:
>> It was pretty weird in that it ran a PDP-11 simulator (on the PDP-11)
>> so students could write something approximating bare-metal software
>> but get some debugging help if things go wrong.
>> 
>> They moved that course to CDC, and I helped write the analogous thing
>> for our Cyber (a Cyber emulator on Cyber).
> 
> Those sound marvellous.  I don't suppose either of them has survived?

No, unfortunately not.

paul


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Re: [Simh] Various

[Timothe Litt]

On 13-Feb-20 20:57, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2020-02-14 01:35, Timothe Litt wrote:
>> On 13-Feb-20 19:21, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> On 2020-02-13 17:42, Clem Cole wrote:


 On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:38 AM Clem Cole >>> > wrote:

     I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a PDP-6 IIRC, but it
     might have been a KA10.   I don't think I ever saw one on a
 PDP-8/11
     or Vaxen.

 The more I think about it, there must have been one or two in the
 mill or the machine room in MRO, but I just can not picture them.
>>>
>>> As far as I know, there was no punch for the PDP-8 or PDP-11.
>>> However, there were readers.
>>>
>>> And the PDP-11 reader controller sat on the Unibus, so it would not
>>> be hard to get it working on a VAX either. If that was officially
>>> supported or not I don't know, though.
>>>
>>> There were a bunch of PDP-11 Unibus peripherals that was never
>>> supported on a VAX. DECtape comes to mind, as well as RK05.
>>>
>>>   Johnny
>>>
>>
>> See my previous note.
>
> Came to yours later...
>
>> The punches you mention do exist, as do others (Not particularly
>> common or popular):
>>
>>   * PDP-11: CP11-UP Punch interface for Univac 1710 Card RDR/PUNCH
>
> Was that a CSS product perhaps? Even looking at the PDP-11 Peripherals
> handbook from 1976 don't mention it. There is only CM11, CR11 and
> CD11. All three are card reader only.

Special Systems, California. Responsible design engineer: Bob Edwards

Don't read anything into "Special Systems" - CSS just means "low volume"
- CSS would sell to anyone, though if a customer's request seemed
unique, the first (sometimes only) customer would pretty much pay the
NRE.  "Low volume" is relative - in the late 80s, line printers were CSS
products.

Can't say much about the CP11's volume - I only saw one.  I expect it
was low.

>
> Haven't manage to find anything on bitsavers yet, but there are a
> bunch of places to search, so I might just have missed it.
>
>> Card readers were sold and supported on all systems thru VAX.
>
> Thanks for clarifying that for me. I wasn't at all sure about the VAX.
>
>> Someone wrote a DECtape driver for VAX - I think Stan R., though it
>> wasn't supported.  DECtape controllers are odd devices - the TD10 is
>> reasonably smart, but the others put realtime constraints on the
>> drivers that could be hard to meet.  Anyhow, by the time the VAX came
>> out, TU58 and Floppies were cheaper and denser media.
>
> I actually do remember seeing it. Fun thing. :-)
>
>> There was also an unsupported DECtape driver for TOPS-20.
>
> KLs with DECtape was always only Tops-10?

Yup.

TOPS-20 had no official support for any IO bus device - except the AN20
(ARPAnet/IMP interface).  Except in that case, the DIA/DIB20 was
difficult to get on the 20 - it was standard on the 10.

However, several drivers for IOB devices existed.  Including the card
reader/punch.

The issue was simply that the IOB had been superseded by MASSBUS (for
DMA devices - disk, tape) - the DF10 channels were expensive in $ and in
memory ports.  For most unit record & Comm, cheaper and less overhead to
hang on the PDP-11 front end.  Unibus, and the drivers made the devices
smarter (and cheaper).  E.g. The 11 handled DMA, modem control, even
broadcast messaging.  And card images.  IOB card readers interrupt the
-10 for every column.  Even with BLKI in the interrupt locations, this
was annoying.  A typical IOB controller would be several rows of
modules, plus power and cooling.  Just the IOB paddle cards used more
backplane space than a Unibus SPC slot.

DECtape, the TD10, is an IOB (but not DMA) device.  Thus, no support. 
Customers who screamed loudly enough and were migrating from TOPS-10
could make it work- at the price of a DIB20 (a full cabinet) and a
TOPS-20 source kit.  When they heard the prices, most swallowed hard and
moved their data to disk or 9-Track.  The problem, of course, is that at
the time there was no replacement "personal media" on the -20 -- the FE
floppies (RX01) were not accessible to the OS, and there was no TU58
(even un-)support on TOPS20.

Both university and engineering shops liked personal media - mostly to
reduce demand for and clutter on expensive disk space.  But TOPS-20
management knew better.

>
>   Johnny
>
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Paul Koning wrote:
> It was pretty weird in that it ran a PDP-11 simulator (on the PDP-11)
> so students could write something approximating bare-metal software
> but get some debugging help if things go wrong.
>
> They moved that course to CDC, and I helped write the analogous thing
> for our Cyber (a Cyber emulator on Cyber).

Those sound marvellous.  I don't suppose either of them has survived?

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Re: [Simh] Various

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2020-02-14 01:35, Timothe Litt wrote:

On 13-Feb-20 19:21, Johnny Billquist wrote:

On 2020-02-13 17:42, Clem Cole wrote:



On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:38 AM Clem Cole > wrote:


    I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a PDP-6 IIRC, but it
    might have been a KA10.   I don't think I ever saw one on a PDP-8/11
    or Vaxen.

The more I think about it, there must have been one or two in the 
mill or the machine room in MRO, but I just can not picture them.


As far as I know, there was no punch for the PDP-8 or PDP-11. However, 
there were readers.


And the PDP-11 reader controller sat on the Unibus, so it would not be 
hard to get it working on a VAX either. If that was officially 
supported or not I don't know, though.


There were a bunch of PDP-11 Unibus peripherals that was never 
supported on a VAX. DECtape comes to mind, as well as RK05.


  Johnny



See my previous note.


Came to yours later...

The punches you mention do exist, as do others (Not particularly common 
or popular):


  * PDP-11: CP11-UP Punch interface for Univac 1710 Card RDR/PUNCH


Was that a CSS product perhaps? Even looking at the PDP-11 Peripherals 
handbook from 1976 don't mention it. There is only CM11, CR11 and CD11. 
All three are card reader only.


Haven't manage to find anything on bitsavers yet, but there are a bunch 
of places to search, so I might just have missed it.



Card readers were sold and supported on all systems thru VAX.


Thanks for clarifying that for me. I wasn't at all sure about the VAX.

Someone wrote a DECtape driver for VAX - I think Stan R., though it 
wasn't supported.  DECtape controllers are odd devices - the TD10 is 
reasonably smart, but the others put realtime constraints on the drivers 
that could be hard to meet.  Anyhow, by the time the VAX came out, TU58 
and Floppies were cheaper and denser media.


I actually do remember seeing it. Fun thing. :-)


There was also an unsupported DECtape driver for TOPS-20.


KLs with DECtape was always only Tops-10?

  Johnny

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Re: [Simh] Various

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2020-02-13 17:42, Clem Cole wrote:



On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:38 AM Clem Cole > wrote:


I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a PDP-6 IIRC, but it
might have been a KA10.   I don't think I ever saw one on a PDP-8/11
or Vaxen.

The more I think about it, there must have been one or two in the mill 
or the machine room in MRO, but I just can not picture them.


As far as I know, there was no punch for the PDP-8 or PDP-11. However, 
there were readers.


And the PDP-11 reader controller sat on the Unibus, so it would not be 
hard to get it working on a VAX either. If that was officially supported 
or not I don't know, though.


There were a bunch of PDP-11 Unibus peripherals that was never supported 
on a VAX. DECtape comes to mind, as well as RK05.


  Johnny

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Re: [Simh] Various

[John Dundas]

Did DEC actually sell that many? In my years of working around DEC gear
starting in the late 1960s, I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a
PDP-6 IIRC, but it might have been a KA10. I don't think I ever saw one
on a PDP-8/11 or Vaxen.



I used cards primarily with IBM, Univac, and CDC gear, but did use a 
mark-sense reader with a PDP-8.  Edusystem-30.  Same size as punch cards 
but 40 mark-sense columns.


John


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Re: [Simh] Various

[Bob Eager]

...of so many 'chips'!

I agree though. Thanks, Al.

On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 14:44:38 -0500
Timothe Litt  wrote:

> Thanks.  Me too. 
> 
> Might be a regional dialect - like "Hi" vs. "Hey" or "labor" vs.
> "labour"  Not worth arguing, especially since Al has been the savior
> (saviour) of so many bits :-)
> 
> On 13-Feb-20 14:38, Bob Eager wrote:
> > It was 'chad' back in 1971 when I was using punched cards.
> >
> > On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:37:15 -0800
> > Al Kossow  wrote:
> >
> >>>  "chad bin full"  
> >>
> >> "chips" not "chad" no matter what the Y2000 revisionists insist on
> >> saying.
> >>
> >>
> >>
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Timothe Litt]

Thanks.  Me too. 

Might be a regional dialect - like "Hi" vs. "Hey" or "labor" vs.
"labour"  Not worth arguing, especially since Al has been the savior
(saviour) of so many bits :-)

On 13-Feb-20 14:38, Bob Eager wrote:
> It was 'chad' back in 1971 when I was using punched cards.
>
> On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:37:15 -0800
> Al Kossow  wrote:
>
>>>  "chad bin full"  
>>
>> "chips" not "chad" no matter what the Y2000 revisionists insist on
>> saying.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Bob Eager]

It was 'chad' back in 1971 when I was using punched cards.

On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:37:15 -0800
Al Kossow  wrote:

> >  "chad bin full"  
> 
> 
> "chips" not "chad" no matter what the Y2000 revisionists insist on
> saying.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 13, 2020, at 1:09 PM, Lars Brinkhoff  wrote:
> 
> Paul Koning wrote:
>> At U of Illinois, the computer science department had a PDP-11 used
>> for teaching assembly language programming.
> 
> I hope it wasn't the same they attached to Arpanet.

No, the ARPAnet one was a Unix system in the advanced computer center, the 
building that was originally built to house Illiac-IV.  The one I'm talking 
about was standalone, a DOS system in the computer science building.

It was pretty weird in that it ran a PDP-11 simulator (on the PDP-11) so 
students could write something approximating bare-metal software but get some 
debugging help if things go wrong.

They moved that course to CDC, and I helped write the analogous thing for our 
Cyber (a Cyber emulator on Cyber).

paul


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Re: [Simh] Various

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Paul Koning wrote:
> At U of Illinois, the computer science department had a PDP-11 used
> for teaching assembly language programming.

I hope it wasn't the same they attached to Arpanet.

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Re: [Simh] Various

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 13, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Clem Cole  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:50 AM Timothe Litt  wrote:
> Among others, DEC OEM'd Documation card readers.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se0F1bLfFKY
> 
> Mark - sorry to go a little direct (simh) topic here [this sort of belongs on 
> Warren's COFF mailing list), but since the Card discussion started here as 
> I'm kinda curious and will ask it.
> 
> Did DEC actually sell that many?   In my years of working around DEC gear 
> starting in the late 1960s, I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a 
> PDP-6 IIRC, but it might have been a KA10.   I don't think I ever saw one on 
> a PDP-8/11 or Vaxen.

At U of Illinois, the computer science department had a PDP-11 used for 
teaching assembly language programming.  It had a CR11 which was the input 
device for student programs.

Note that these are just readers.  DEC did not sell a card punch for the PDP-11.

> I certainly saw and used them on IBM 1401/360 systems, the Univac 1100s and 
> CDC's.  I have not so fond memories of the IBM 1442, much less a 26 and 29 
> keypunch (and a couple of great stories too). 

CDC had its own card readers and punches, and those were also sold to some 
other manufacturers.  For example, the EL-X8 reader and punch are the CDC 415 
and 405.  On those machines paper tape was more common, but some installations 
did have punched card I/O.

One interesting aspect of the 405 is that it punches a row at a time.  Usually 
the program interface is with data in columns, so the controller had to do an 
80x12 matrix transpose.  Occasionally the job would be left to software (the X8 
did this).

paul

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Re: [Simh] Various

[Jonathan Welch]

Our VAX 11/780 had a card reader in the very early 1980s for reading in the
names and details of incoming freshmen so their accounts could be set up.

It usually required a few runs to obtain an uncorrupted read of the card
deck.

The IBM system that generated the cards was on the other side of a wall but
no attempt to have the two systems communicate with each other was ever
made.

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, 11:40 AM Clem Cole  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:50 AM Timothe Litt  wrote:
>
>> Among others, DEC OEM'd Documation card readers.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se0F1bLfFKY
>>
> Mark - sorry to go a little direct (simh) topic here [this sort of belongs
> on Warren's COFF mailing list), but since the Card discussion started here
> as I'm kinda curious and will ask it.
>
> Did DEC actually sell that many?   In my years of working around DEC gear
> starting in the late 1960s, I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a
> PDP-6 IIRC, but it might have been a KA10.   I don't think I ever saw one
> on a PDP-8/11 or Vaxen.
>
> I certainly saw and used them on IBM 1401/360 systems, the Univac 1100s
> and CDC's.  I have not so fond memories of the IBM 1442, much less a 26 and
> 29 keypunch (and a couple of great stories too).
>
> That said, when I think of DEC gear, my memories are of paper tape or
> either the original DEC-Tape units or a couple of cases the old
> cassette tape units DEC had on some of the laboratory PDP 11/05s.
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Clem Cole]

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:38 AM Clem Cole  wrote:

> I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a PDP-6 IIRC, but it might
> have been a KA10.   I don't think I ever saw one on a PDP-8/11 or Vaxen.
>
The more I think about it, there must have been one or two in the mill or
the machine room in MRO, but I just can not picture them.
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Clem Cole]

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:50 AM Timothe Litt  wrote:

> Among others, DEC OEM'd Documation card readers.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se0F1bLfFKY
>
Mark - sorry to go a little direct (simh) topic here [this sort of belongs
on Warren's COFF mailing list), but since the Card discussion started here
as I'm kinda curious and will ask it.

Did DEC actually sell that many?   In my years of working around DEC gear
starting in the late 1960s, I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a
PDP-6 IIRC, but it might have been a KA10.   I don't think I ever saw one
on a PDP-8/11 or Vaxen.

I certainly saw and used them on IBM 1401/360 systems, the Univac 1100s and
CDC's.  I have not so fond memories of the IBM 1442, much less a 26 and 29
keypunch (and a couple of great stories too).

That said, when I think of DEC gear, my memories are of paper tape or
either the original DEC-Tape units or a couple of cases the old
cassette tape units DEC had on some of the laboratory PDP 11/05s.
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Al Kossow]

>  "chad bin full"


"chips" not "chad" no matter what the Y2000 revisionists insist on saying.



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Re: [Simh] Various

[Toby Thain]

On 2020-02-13 9:49 AM, Mark Emmer wrote:
> Any good simulation would have to include the semi-real I/O instructions
> RCC (Read and Chew Card) and DPD (Drop and Pie Deck).

I was aware of the "pie" verb describing typesetters dropping made up
type... TIL it survived into the punch card era.

--Toby


> 
> I'm with you about never again struggling to remove a card from the read
> gate that had been converted to a mini-accordion or measuring the size
> of a progrram in boxes, not bytes.
> 
> I'm traveling for several weeks, but when back home I will assist Ken in
> getting an SDS driver for the reader/punch if he hasn't completed the
> task by then.  All needed documentation is in the 940 Reference Manual.
> 
> I wonder if anyone has sound recordings of a reader/punch?  That would
> be a nice addition to a blinkenlights implementation, which is on my To
> Do list.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> Get BlueMail for Android 
> On Feb 13, 2020, at 6:51 AM, Bob Supnik  > wrote:
> 
> 1. I can confirm that RT11 V5.3 INIT does not work properly with an RL02 
> in 3.10.
> 
> My next step is to trace back changes, because I think it used to work.
> 
> 2. There's no card reader for the SDS 940 because
> 
> a) I hate card readers (from having used them way back when)
> b) I thought there wouldn't be any demand
> 
> Rich Cornwell's library should make it easier to implement a card reader
> these days.
> 
> My first card reader story goes back to an RCA Spectra 70 I used in 1965.
> It had a vacuum pick reader for high speed operation. The reader would
> gradually curl the front edge of the cards, so that after two or three
> passes, the deck was unreadable. It's failure mode was to spit cards out,
> past the receive hopper, at very high velocity and scatter them ten or
> fifteen feet out on the floor...
> 
> The second was a very slow mechanical reader on a PDP-7 in 1966. The
> only other keyboard device was a Teletype, so initial entry of programs
> was done from punched cards. It read, allegedly, 100 cards per minute
> using mechanical fingers with little star wheels on the end. DEC field
> service was in almost every week tuning or fixing the damned thing so
> that it could actually handle a decent-sized deck.
> 
> In my experience, only IBM built decent card readers. The reader/punch
> on the 1620 (I used one in 1964) was very sturdy, and the 407 (used for
> offline printing of punched card output) could read almost anything.
> 
> /Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simh mailing list
> Simh@trailing-edge.com
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> 
> 
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Timothe Litt]

Among others, DEC OEM'd Documation card readers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se0F1bLfFKY

And old friend - the 1442 reader/punch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w62NC1R6WLs

And with the covers open

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfRxpmiScPA

I didn't find audio of the punch - which was quite noisy (and slow).

Note the dual output trays - program selectable.  Often one used for
accepted data, the other for rejects.

Operators interested in throughput (or lunch) would, contrary to
instructions, try to load and unload while the reader/punch was
running.  This could produce entertaining results.  (Jams - and avian
cards...)

So could the first time an operator encountered the "chad bin full"
error condition...


On 13-Feb-20 10:27, Richard Cornwell wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
>> Any good simulation would have to include the semi-real I/O
>> instructions RCC (Read and Chew Card) and DPD (Drop and Pie Deck).
>   I considered adding these to my card simulation. I could also add
>   the feature that it will once in a while overwrite the currently
>   reading card with random junk.
>
>   sim_card, basically give you translation from the various formats
>   into a punched image of the card. Or it takes a punched image of a
>   card and translates it to ASCII or other formats. It can also
>   auto detect most common card deck format. Currently supported formats
>   are ASCII, CBN, Binary, card, EBCDIC. Also if it can't translate a
>   card to ASCII it will generate an ~raw card with octal values.
>  
>> I'm with you about never again struggling to remove a card from the
>> read gate that had been converted to a mini-accordion or measuring
>> the size of a progrram in boxes, not bytes.
>>
>> I'm traveling for several weeks, but when back home I will assist Ken
>> in getting an SDS driver for the reader/punch if he hasn't completed
>> the task by then.  All needed documentation is in the 940 Reference
>> Manual.
>Let me know if you have any questions or need things added. sim_card
>is currently used by all of my simulators. You might need to tweak
>the translation tables, if so let me know.
>
>> I wonder if anyone has sound recordings of a reader/punch?  That
>> would be a nice addition to a blinkenlights implementation, which is
>> on my To Do list.
>I am sure we could get some clips.
>
> Rich
>  
>>
>> ⁣Get BlueMail for Android ​
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2020, 6:51 AM, at 6:51 AM, Bob Supnik 
>> wrote:
>>> 1. I can confirm that RT11 V5.3 INIT does not work properly with an
>>> RL02 
>>> in 3.10.
>>>
>>> My next step is to trace back changes, because I think it used to
>>> work.
>>>
>>> 2. There's no card reader for the SDS 940 because
>>>
>>> a) I hate card readers (from having used them way back when)
>>> b) I thought there wouldn't be any demand
>>>
>>> Rich Cornwell's library should make it easier to implement a card
>>> reader
>>> these days.
>>>
>>> My first card reader story goes back to an RCA Spectra 70 I used in
>>> 1965.
>>> It had a vacuum pick reader for high speed operation. The reader
>>> would gradually curl the front edge of the cards, so that after two
>>> or three passes, the deck was unreadable. It's failure mode was to
>>> spit cards out,
>>> past the receive hopper, at very high velocity and scatter them ten
>>> or fifteen feet out on the floor...
>>>
>>> The second was a very slow mechanical reader on a PDP-7 in 1966. The
>>> only other keyboard device was a Teletype, so initial entry of
>>> programs was done from punched cards. It read, allegedly, 100 cards
>>> per minute using mechanical fingers with little star wheels on the
>>> end. DEC field service was in almost every week tuning or fixing the
>>> damned thing so that it could actually handle a decent-sized deck.
>>>
>>> In my experience, only IBM built decent card readers. The
>>> reader/punch on the 1620 (I used one in 1964) was very sturdy, and
>>> the 407 (used for offline printing of punched card output) could
>>> read almost anything.
>>>
>>> /Bob
>>>
>>>
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>
>
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Richard Cornwell]

Hi Mark,

> Any good simulation would have to include the semi-real I/O
> instructions RCC (Read and Chew Card) and DPD (Drop and Pie Deck).

  I considered adding these to my card simulation. I could also add
  the feature that it will once in a while overwrite the currently
  reading card with random junk.

  sim_card, basically give you translation from the various formats
  into a punched image of the card. Or it takes a punched image of a
  card and translates it to ASCII or other formats. It can also
  auto detect most common card deck format. Currently supported formats
  are ASCII, CBN, Binary, card, EBCDIC. Also if it can't translate a
  card to ASCII it will generate an ~raw card with octal values.
 
> I'm with you about never again struggling to remove a card from the
> read gate that had been converted to a mini-accordion or measuring
> the size of a progrram in boxes, not bytes.
> 
> I'm traveling for several weeks, but when back home I will assist Ken
> in getting an SDS driver for the reader/punch if he hasn't completed
> the task by then.  All needed documentation is in the 940 Reference
> Manual.

   Let me know if you have any questions or need things added. sim_card
   is currently used by all of my simulators. You might need to tweak
   the translation tables, if so let me know.

> I wonder if anyone has sound recordings of a reader/punch?  That
> would be a nice addition to a blinkenlights implementation, which is
> on my To Do list.

   I am sure we could get some clips.

Rich
 
> 
> 
> ⁣Get BlueMail for Android ​
> 
> On Feb 13, 2020, 6:51 AM, at 6:51 AM, Bob Supnik 
> wrote:
> >1. I can confirm that RT11 V5.3 INIT does not work properly with an
> >RL02 
> >in 3.10.
> >
> >My next step is to trace back changes, because I think it used to
> >work.
> >
> >2. There's no card reader for the SDS 940 because
> >
> >a) I hate card readers (from having used them way back when)
> >b) I thought there wouldn't be any demand
> >
> >Rich Cornwell's library should make it easier to implement a card
> >reader
> >these days.
> >
> >My first card reader story goes back to an RCA Spectra 70 I used in
> >1965.
> >It had a vacuum pick reader for high speed operation. The reader
> >would gradually curl the front edge of the cards, so that after two
> >or three passes, the deck was unreadable. It's failure mode was to
> >spit cards out,
> >past the receive hopper, at very high velocity and scatter them ten
> >or fifteen feet out on the floor...
> >
> >The second was a very slow mechanical reader on a PDP-7 in 1966. The
> >only other keyboard device was a Teletype, so initial entry of
> >programs was done from punched cards. It read, allegedly, 100 cards
> >per minute using mechanical fingers with little star wheels on the
> >end. DEC field service was in almost every week tuning or fixing the
> >damned thing so that it could actually handle a decent-sized deck.
> >
> >In my experience, only IBM built decent card readers. The
> >reader/punch on the 1620 (I used one in 1964) was very sturdy, and
> >the 407 (used for offline printing of punched card output) could
> >read almost anything.
> >
> >/Bob
> >
> >
> >___
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> >Simh@trailing-edge.com
> >http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh  
> 



-- 
==
Richard Cornwell
r...@sky-visions.com
http://sky-visions.com
LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-cornwell-991076107
==
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Mark Emmer]

Any good simulation would have to include the semi-real I/O instructions RCC 
(Read and Chew Card) and DPD (Drop and Pie Deck).

I'm with you about never again struggling to remove a card from the read gate 
that had been converted to a mini-accordion or measuring the size of a progrram 
in boxes, not bytes.

I'm traveling for several weeks, but when back home I will assist Ken in 
getting an SDS driver for the reader/punch if he hasn't completed the task by 
then.  All needed documentation is in the 940 Reference Manual.

I wonder if anyone has sound recordings of a reader/punch?  That would be a 
nice addition to a blinkenlights implementation, which is on my To Do list.

Mark



⁣Get BlueMail for Android ​

On Feb 13, 2020, 6:51 AM, at 6:51 AM, Bob Supnik  wrote:
>1. I can confirm that RT11 V5.3 INIT does not work properly with an
>RL02
>in 3.10.
>
>My next step is to trace back changes, because I think it used to work.
>
>2. There's no card reader for the SDS 940 because
>
>a) I hate card readers (from having used them way back when)
>b) I thought there wouldn't be any demand
>
>Rich Cornwell's library should make it easier to implement a card
>reader
>these days.
>
>My first card reader story goes back to an RCA Spectra 70 I used in
>1965.
>It had a vacuum pick reader for high speed operation. The reader would
>gradually curl the front edge of the cards, so that after two or three
>passes, the deck was unreadable. It's failure mode was to spit cards
>out,
>past the receive hopper, at very high velocity and scatter them ten or
>fifteen feet out on the floor...
>
>The second was a very slow mechanical reader on a PDP-7 in 1966. The
>only other keyboard device was a Teletype, so initial entry of programs
>was done from punched cards. It read, allegedly, 100 cards per minute
>using mechanical fingers with little star wheels on the end. DEC field
>service was in almost every week tuning or fixing the damned thing so
>that it could actually handle a decent-sized deck.
>
>In my experience, only IBM built decent card readers. The reader/punch
>on the 1620 (I used one in 1964) was very sturdy, and the 407 (used for
>offline printing of punched card output) could read almost anything.
>
>/Bob
>
>
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Bob Supnik]

1. I can confirm that RT11 V5.3 INIT does not work properly with an RL02 
in 3.10.


My next step is to trace back changes, because I think it used to work.

2. There's no card reader for the SDS 940 because

a) I hate card readers (from having used them way back when)
b) I thought there wouldn't be any demand

Rich Cornwell's library should make it easier to implement a card reader
these days.

My first card reader story goes back to an RCA Spectra 70 I used in 1965.
It had a vacuum pick reader for high speed operation. The reader would
gradually curl the front edge of the cards, so that after two or three
passes, the deck was unreadable. It's failure mode was to spit cards out,
past the receive hopper, at very high velocity and scatter them ten or
fifteen feet out on the floor...

The second was a very slow mechanical reader on a PDP-7 in 1966. The
only other keyboard device was a Teletype, so initial entry of programs
was done from punched cards. It read, allegedly, 100 cards per minute
using mechanical fingers with little star wheels on the end. DEC field
service was in almost every week tuning or fixing the damned thing so
that it could actually handle a decent-sized deck.

In my experience, only IBM built decent card readers. The reader/punch
on the 1620 (I used one in 1964) was very sturdy, and the 407 (used for
offline printing of punched card output) could read almost anything.

/Bob


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[Simh] Various PDP11 fixes and enhancements

[Bob Supnik]

1. RK611 bug - RK07 not recognized on RSTS/E. Fixed. New version 
smoke-tested with VMS, M+, RSTS/E, and RT.
2. RS03/RS04 - third Massbus adapter with RS03/RS04 fixed head disk. 
Only tested with RT11, as M+ and RSTS/E support requires a unique 
SYSGENs. Feel free to hack on it.
3. PDP11 CPU - MMR1 no longer tracks changes to the PC. The issue that 
it should not track changes in floating point instructions is still open.


As usual, look for recent checkins in the GitHub repository, or new 
files in the interim corrections directory on the SimH web site 
(http://simh.trailing-edge.com/interim).


/Bob
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