Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[heath bunting]

My position is that state actors bombing civilians is the main issue.


understood, but none of this will be resolved without factoring in sub and 
super state actors


nation states are bound by international laws - judicial

sub and super state actors get to do what they want - extra-judicial

hence the empires/EU alliance with isis/ paramilitaries/ mafia

__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Chris Oakley]

You're not drawing me into that well-trodden rabbit hole. My position is 
that state actors bombing civilians is the main issue.


Don't worry, I'll be leaving the group. I've really heard enough.

On 08/03/2022 16:26, heath bunting wrote:

chris

what is your position on the west supported white helmets ?

(i ask as the syria dirty war is a prelude to the ukraine war)

do you think they are heroes, as portrayed in the oscar winning 
documentary about them ?


or do you think they harvested organs from the people they 'rescued' 
for the israeli bio-market ?


i am happy to unsubscribe from the list if i am making people 
uncomfortable - let me know


hope all is well

heath



On Tue, 8 Mar 2022, contact wrote:

Right. I think we've heard it all now. I'm not sure how we're 
supposed to read this. Is this culture jammin? Best poetry? Or deranged
nonsense? It's an argument that dosen't even stand up to its own 
internal logic, if it can be called that. It's also pretty offensive
on many levels. It could also pass quite convincingly as 
disinformation. I really give up trying to understand what the game 
is behind
this. I find Steve Bannon's motto- "flood the field with shit" coming 
to mind.


This thread is becoming pretty pointless is this is the calibre of 
response to a situation so serious.





  On 8 Mar 2022 at 11:27, heath bunting 
 wrote:


> Personally, I would prefer to start the conversation with the 
simple > question, what is required so that everybody can live in 
peace and > freedom? And rather than assume a trope like the "spheres 
of influence" > as a given, I would only want to discuss how this war 
can be stopped, > and how a situation in which future wars can be 
prevented.
we have to constantly choose peace and freedom in all our 
interactions, but also be courageous enough to acknowledge and 
integrate the horror

of the will to power in ourselves and others
ignoring the crimes against humanity of our 'leaders' will not bring 
peace

in ourselves or for others
are we willing occasionally to engage in the means of black 
activities such child sex blackmail operations and human organ 
traffic financing to obtained the ends ?
are we then willing to integrate these activities into our peaceful 
and free lives ?
having a non-constituted extra-legal supra-national body, which can 
only engaged in covert horror to survive, in our lives makes choosing 
peace and freedom almost impossible
imperialism is the supreme crime against humanity and should be the 
first subject addressed in any conversation with intent to better the 
world
"There are roughly 750 US foreign military bases; they are spread 
across 80 nations! After the U.S is the UK, but they only have 145 
bases. Russia has about 3 dozen bases, and China just five."
it is completely disproportionate to compare USA empire [USA, UK, 
Israel, Saudi Arabia ...] with russia. the differential factor is 300/1.

in my opinion, another word for wisdom is proportionality
the first task of the day should always be to confront the USAE
until is is gone
russia [and others] are confronting the horror of USAE supported 
euro-fascism, as they confronted islamo-fascism [and beat] in syria

remember russia lost 20,000,000 people to euro-fascism in WWII
this is not a regional war, this is a world war to kill USAE and its 
proxy fighters
the sooner ukraine surrenders and accepts the conditions of 
de-nazification the less damage there will be

this can be said for all of us as well
all of us in 'the west' need to go through a process of imperial 
decontamination

__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre




__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[heath bunting]

chris

what is your position on the west supported white helmets ?

(i ask as the syria dirty war is a prelude to the ukraine war)

do you think they are heroes, as portrayed in the oscar winning 
documentary about them ?


or do you think they harvested organs from the people they 'rescued' for 
the israeli bio-market ?


i am happy to unsubscribe from the list if i am making people 
uncomfortable - let me know


hope all is well

heath



On Tue, 8 Mar 2022, contact wrote:


Right. I think we've heard it all now. I'm not sure how we're supposed to read 
this. Is this culture jammin? Best poetry? Or deranged
nonsense? It's an argument that dosen't even stand up to its own internal 
logic, if it can be called that. It's also pretty offensive
on many levels. It could also pass quite convincingly as disinformation. I 
really give up trying to understand what the game is behind
this. I find Steve Bannon's motto- "flood the field with shit" coming to mind.

This thread is becoming pretty pointless is this is the calibre of response to 
a situation so serious.




  On 8 Mar 2022 at 11:27, heath bunting  wrote:

> Personally, I would prefer to start the conversation with the simple 
> question, what is required so that everybody can live in peace and 
> freedom? And rather than assume a trope like the "spheres of influence" 
> as a given, I would only want to discuss how this war can be stopped, 
> and how a situation in which future wars can be prevented.
we have to constantly choose peace and freedom in all our interactions, 
but also be courageous enough to acknowledge and integrate the horror

of the will to power in ourselves and others
ignoring the crimes against humanity of our 'leaders' will not bring peace
in ourselves or for others
are we willing occasionally to engage in the means of black activities 
such child sex blackmail operations and human organ traffic financing to 
obtained the ends ?
are we then willing to integrate these activities into our peaceful 
and free lives ?
having a non-constituted extra-legal supra-national body, which can only 
engaged in covert horror to survive, in our lives makes choosing peace and 
freedom almost impossible
imperialism is the supreme crime against humanity and should be the first 
subject addressed in any conversation with intent to better the world
"There are roughly 750 US foreign military bases; they are spread across 
80 nations! After the U.S is the UK, but they only have 145 bases. Russia 
has about 3 dozen bases, and China just five."
it is completely disproportionate to compare USA empire [USA, UK, Israel, 
Saudi Arabia ...] with russia. the differential factor is 300/1.

in my opinion, another word for wisdom is proportionality
the first task of the day should always be to confront the USAE
until is is gone
russia [and others] are confronting the horror of USAE supported 
euro-fascism, as they confronted islamo-fascism [and beat] in syria

remember russia lost 20,000,000 people to euro-fascism in WWII
this is not a regional war, this is a world war to kill USAE and its proxy 
fighters
the sooner ukraine surrenders and accepts the conditions of 
de-nazification the less damage there will be

this can be said for all of us as well
all of us in 'the west' need to go through a process of imperial 
decontamination

__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre




__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[contact]

 
 
Right. I think we've heard it all now. I'm not sure how we're supposed to read 
this. Is this culture jammin? Best poetry? Or deranged nonsense? It's an 
argument that dosen't even stand up to its own internal logic, if it can be 
called that. It's also pretty offensive on many levels. It could also pass 
quite convincingly as disinformation. I really give up trying to understand 
what the game is behind this. I find Steve Bannon's motto- "flood the field 
with shit" coming to mind.
 

 
This thread is becoming pretty pointless is this is the calibre of response to 
a situation so serious.
 

 

 

 

 

 
 
 
 
>  
> On 8 Mar 2022 at 11:27, heath buntingwrote:
>  
>  
>   >  Personally, I would prefer to start the conversation with the simple 
> >  question, what is required so that everybody can live in peace and 
> >  freedom? And rather than assume a trope like the "spheres of influence" 
> >  as a given, I would only want to discuss how this war can be stopped, 
> >  and how a situation in which future wars can be prevented.
>
> we have to constantly choose peace and freedom in all our interactions, 
> but also be courageous enough to acknowledge and integrate the horror
> of the will to power in ourselves and others
>
> ignoring the crimes against humanity of our 'leaders' will not bring peace
> in ourselves or for others
>
> are we willing occasionally to engage in the means of black activities 
> such child sex blackmail operations and human organ traffic financing to 
> obtained the ends ?
>
> are we then willing to integrate these activities into our peaceful 
> and free lives ?
>
> having a non-constituted extra-legal supra-national body, which can only 
> engaged in covert horror to survive, in our lives makes choosing peace and 
> freedom almost impossible
>
> imperialism is the supreme crime against humanity and should be the first 
> subject addressed in any conversation with intent to better the world
>
> "There are roughly 750 US foreign military bases; they are spread across 
> 80 nations! After the U.S is the UK, but they only have 145 bases. Russia 
> has about 3 dozen bases, and China just five."
>
> it is completely disproportionate to compare USA empire [USA, UK, Israel, 
> Saudi Arabia ...] with russia. the differential factor is 300/1.
>
> in my opinion, another word for wisdom is proportionality
>
> the first task of the day should always be to confront the USAE
> until is is gone
>
> russia [and others] are confronting the horror of USAE supported 
> euro-fascism, as they confronted islamo-fascism [and beat] in syria
>
> remember russia lost 20,000,000 people to euro-fascism in WWII
>
> this is not a regional war, this is a world war to kill USAE and its proxy 
> fighters
>
> the sooner ukraine surrenders and accepts the conditions of 
> de-nazification the less damage there will be
>
> this can be said for all of us as well
>
> all of us in 'the west' need to go through a process of imperial 
> decontamination
> __
> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
> Info, archive and help:
> http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
>
 __
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[heath bunting]

Personally, I would prefer to start the conversation with the simple 
question, what is required so that everybody can live in peace and 
freedom? And rather than assume a trope like the "spheres of influence" 
as a given, I would only want to discuss how this war can be stopped, 
and how a situation in which future wars can be prevented.


we have to constantly choose peace and freedom in all our interactions, 
but also be courageous enough to acknowledge and integrate the horror

of the will to power in ourselves and others

ignoring the crimes against humanity of our 'leaders' will not bring peace
in ourselves or for others

are we willing occasionally to engage in the means of black activities 
such child sex blackmail operations and human organ traffic financing to 
obtained the ends ?


are we then willing to integrate these activities into our peaceful 
and free lives ?


having a non-constituted extra-legal supra-national body, which can only 
engaged in covert horror to survive, in our lives makes choosing peace and 
freedom almost impossible


imperialism is the supreme crime against humanity and should be the first 
subject addressed in any conversation with intent to better the world


"There are roughly 750 US foreign military bases; they are spread across 
80 nations! After the U.S is the UK, but they only have 145 bases. Russia 
has about 3 dozen bases, and China just five."


it is completely disproportionate to compare USA empire [USA, UK, Israel, 
Saudi Arabia ...] with russia. the differential factor is 300/1.


in my opinion, another word for wisdom is proportionality

the first task of the day should always be to confront the USAE
until is is gone

russia [and others] are confronting the horror of USAE supported 
euro-fascism, as they confronted islamo-fascism [and beat] in syria


remember russia lost 20,000,000 people to euro-fascism in WWII

this is not a regional war, this is a world war to kill USAE and its proxy 
fighters


the sooner ukraine surrenders and accepts the conditions of 
de-nazification the less damage there will be


this can be said for all of us as well

all of us in 'the west' need to go through a process of imperial 
decontamination

__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Andreas Broeckmann]

Dear Lanfranco,

I would like to come back briefly to your long argument, and make two 
points.


Am 02.03.22 um 19:42 schrieb Lanfranco Aceti:

Like you, I very much like facts, but I think
you might be too confident in the 'innocence of NATO' 


I didn't say, and I didn't mean to say that NATO is inncocent per se; I 
do however believe that Putin's government and the Russian military are 
responsible for the military attack on Ukraine, for the ongoing killing 
and destruction. In your message, you remind us of many historical 
facts, and it is not entirely clear from your argument whether you see 
those historical events as a way to explain, or to justify the Russian 
attacks. I presume that it is the former, i.e. that you want to offer a 
historical analysis. But you basically only write about faults of the US 
and NATO over the past 60 years, and not half as much about the current 
war. - The impression that your discourse thus creates is that you think 
the West, NATO, and consecutive US governments in particular somehow 
provoked and necessitated the Russian attack. - As a German pacifist and 
voter of the Green Party who is currently represented by Annalena 
Baerbock as the German minister of foreign affairs, I find your argument 
untenable (and to me it sounds revanchist, even though I find it hard to 
imagine that you intend that).


My second point concerns something that you appear to firmly believe and 
that you reiterate five or six times (see some further examples, below):


and yes, unfortunately so, the world is divided into imperialistic 
spheres of influence. 


I'm not a political scientist, but my feeling is that this is not 
necessarily a fact, but a trope that is used to explain the geopolitical 
situation. I think that it was definitely like that until the 1990s, 
large parts of the world divided between the spheres of influence of the 
US on one side, and the USSR  on the other. But I wonder whether this is 
still the case, whether (for example) the NATO of 1988 is still the same 
as the NATO of 2022 - with Poland, Hungary, Romania, and others as 
member states, and governments including Biden/Harris, 
Scholz/Baerbock/Habeck, Orban, Morawiecki/Duda, Sanchez, etc.


What if the hypothesis of the "spheres of influence" was incorrect? What 
if there is now a more diverse, less consistent, also more fluid 
geopolitical situation in which agency is not primarily determined by 
the acknowledgement of the efficacy of such "spheres of influence"? 
(Isn't this hypothesis one of the main points of Putin's justification 
of the war on Ukraine?)


Personally, I would prefer to start the conversation with the simple 
question, what is required so that everybody can live in peace and 
freedom? And rather than assume a trope like the "spheres of influence" 
as a given, I would only want to discuss how this war can be stopped, 
and how a situation in which future wars can be prevented.


Best regards,
-a


NATO represents the arm of a sphere of influence in Europe to protect 
American interests. Why has it not been dismantled after the Cold War?


The sphere of influence of the United States expands to Central and 
Latin American countries with over a century of policies that have 
produced some of the worst dictatorships in the world. 


It appears that for whatever reason, economic or strategic that it might 
be, for President Biden and its administration was necessary to push for 
a conflict with disregard for the consequences for the people of 
Ukraine, for the Russians (may remind you all that the soldiers are 
human beings as well), and for the security of all Europeans.


To look at this with naive eyes is dangerous for our own future. Ukraine 
is a participant in this conflict with what I consider to be 
unreasonable demands, backed by the United States that wants to keep on 
reducing the sphere of influence of Russia to its own advantage. It has 
failed with Georgia and it seemed destined to fail again.


Having said all of this, and there is much more that I would like to 
add, I have been obsessed by this question: why hasn't President 
Zelensky pursued a policy similar to that of Finland, that is to achieve 
a status of neutrality and demilitarization, perhaps even with the entry 
in the EU, without joining NATO? To answer Andreas' statement earlier, 
yes I do not believe that Ukraine had or has a right to join a military 
alliance like NATO without expecting retaliation, when instead it had 
every right to join in the EU as a neutral and demilitarized state, 
freely negotiating to do so, without fear. Perhaps our role as European 
is that of striking a balance between competing interests and not siding 
with one part or the other. It is finding solutions or even imposing 
them to both the United States and Russia that they might be unwilling 
to consider.

__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[heath bunting]

dan

Going against the propaganda machine, is simply not possible, its too 
vast, too huge, too extended and it molds reality in every possible way. 
Counterpropaganda even when supported by private parties and governments 
has little or no effect. and to make it just worse, in case you get 
really good and effective you may become the next Assange; is that a 
desired option?


i know people in NATO who assess artists' EFFECTIVENESS and either support 
them materially or disable/ kill them depending on whether their message 
supports the desired narrative


I grew up under military dictatorships sponsored and well orchestrated 
by powers who spiritually cleansed and plundered a continent through 500 
years Market rules this world.


As to the other world…I work together with an extended family of makers, 
artists of all sorts whom we build together the air we all breathe, 
here, there and everywhere.


do you try to protect yourself and loved ones from propaganda in your own 
personal life and practice ?


how do you deal with friends, family and comrades that start to subject 
you to propaganda ? do you have a security strategy you can make public ?


i have learnt to navigate situations emotionally and to weaponise 
intimacy in extreme situations of dentention, stalking and isolation


i have been very inspired by assange conceiving two children with his
lawyer whilst in arbitary detention - not sure how i would feel about
this though if i was one of his kids, knowing i was the embodiment of
an act of rebellion

hope all is well

heath__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Hanna Haaslahti]

Hello from Helsinki and many thanks for opening up this thread!

As many of my fellow citizens, I have grown up with constant fear of our 
ominous and unpredictable neighbor, Russia. Being a small nation at the 
direct geographical contact with the moody giant has shaped the 
psychology of postwar Finland. We are constantly on our knees making 
sure that the temper of our eastern neighbor stays on the positive side. 
Some call this approach effective foreign policy, the only way to survive.


In 1939 Finland asked for international help on the eve of Soviet 
attack. Very few replied. Now Ukraine is asking the same thing and many 
have replied. It seems to me, that this is the way to fight the despots, 
by joining all the forces against them and showing unity, instead of 
self-interest.


Please, keep the pressure on together, we will need it here on the 
eastern edges of EU.


/Hanna


On 02/03/2022 17.19, carsten stabenow wrote:

depends on how you define ‚disinformation‘
crimethInc has a clear history, easily to track 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CrimethInc.)


thanks andreas for opening up the discussion here!
i’m personally shocked by the war rhetoric from all sides. i worked 
the past 25 years with artists from ukraine and russia in context 
trying to make borders unnecessary, call me naive, but i’m still 100% 
that we have to stand together against any kind of war - boycotts in 
the cultural sector would be confession of failure. (my subjective 
position)


there was just a post by geert lovink on nettime with many proposals 
for constructive action:

https://nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-2203/msg5.html

best, carsten



Am 02.03.2022 um 15:49 schrieb Matias Schüttenberg :

Is this the same desinformation campaign from Social Networks??

Has someone researched on this subject there?


On 2 Mar 2022 10:39, "Nicolas Montgermont"  wrote:

Hello everyone,

Maybe it is good to have the point of view of some political
groups in Ukraine and Russia.

Here is an article from some anti anti-authoritarian ukrainian
groups that is two weeks old:

https://en.crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine

Here is one by russian anarchists, updated one week ago.

https://en.crimethinc.com/2022/02/26/russian-anarchists-on-resisting-the-invasion-of-ukraine-updates-and-analysis

They really helped me to understand the political situation!
Best,
n

PS : forgive me if these were already posted here.

https://nimon.org

Le 02/03/2022 à 11:48, Spyros Boukas a écrit :


Hi everyone,

I would like to share some thoughts that I have had since last
week.
I apologize in advance for my English :)


This is a world war that didn’t start last week.

It has started many years ago.

It has started straight after the end of the ‘’cold war’’ that
was not cold at all.

It started with the first Gulf War in 1990, were the western
Alliances attacked Iraq.
And it continued with the occupation and destruction of many
eastern countries since then.
But in western countries and western media this was not a
problem, because we were the ones that were bombing.
And because the dead people were Muslims.

In 1995 there was a massacre in Kosovo, the biggest massacre
after the second world war, in which all the European countries
took part, by their silence.
And still, this was not a problem, because the dead people were
Muslims. Here in Greece, the media were saying that the people
were bombing their city by themselves
because they were fanatic Muslims (the same ideology that
continued with the second war in Iraq)

Now that the country that is attacking is not a western country,
it is called war.
As if previously we were having peace in the world.

In Ukraine from 2014 there is a war and since then, 14000 people
have died.
If we look back when this started, we can see that this is
something that was pushed from the western countries back then.
By sending weapons and supporting the para-military of Ukraine
and helping to establish a Fascist regime that oppresses the
people and the working class of Ukraine
and forwards neonazi ideologies and practices.


As the global Capitalistic crisis rises more and more, the war
probably will come closer to us.
But whenever the Bosses of this world are making wars to compete
for their geopolitical thirst and capitalism expansion, we are
the ones who always die...

As the war expands, our personal or collective dilemmas for
participation for sure will get stronger.
We should not join any National flag. We should fight in our
countries against their participation in any war,
because we will be the victims of something that we only have to
lose.
We have to lose our friends and beloved people’s lives or even
our lives.

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Arkadiusz Półtorak]

Just a quick reminder to all that complain about NATO propaganda - NATO is
not a monolithic political entity. It is an alliance and thus, by
definition, it includes representatives of united but incongruous bodies.
To equate NATO with the United States and present it in a perfectly
symmetrical relation to Russia - or, if you prefer, Putin's regime - is not
a "nuanced" account of the situation. Quite the opposite - it is a binary
representation of the geopolitical scene, in which the voice of Central
European countries like Poland, Slovakia or Lithuania is neatly voided.
Although I am not the greatest fan of military organizations (to say the
least), it is difficult for me to imagine how countries in our region could
maintain their relative safety and sovereignty without adhering to the
alliance in question. To think that dissolution of NATO right after the end
of the Cold War would have prevented Russia from imperial expansion is - to
me - a wishful thought, and I encourage everyone to try to shed the Cold
War binaries, and view the current situation through the eyes of Ukrainians
and its neighbours.
Best,
a


śr., 2 mar 2022 o 21:51 D A N Arenzon  napisał(a):

> Going against the propaganda machine, is simply not possible, its too
> vast, too huge, too extended and it molds reality in every possible way.
> Counterpropaganda even when supported by private parties and governments
> has little or no effect.
> and to make it just worse, in case you get really good and effective you
> may become the next Assange; is that a desired option?
>
> I grew up under military dictatorships sponsored and well orchestrated by
> powers who spiritually cleansed and plundered a continent through 500 years
> Market rules this world.
>
> As to the other world…I work together with an extended family of makers,
> artists of all sorts whom we build together the air we all breathe, here,
> there and everywhere.
> d
> a
> n
> https://dan.openeurope.de/
>
> On 02/03/2022 19:42 Lanfranco Aceti  wrote:
>
>
> Dear Carsten,
>
>
> I wanted to say that I totally agree with you. I am shocked by the war
> rhetoric and its poisonous influence. It makes it more difficult for me to
> write since I am a slow and careful writer, particularly when posting
> online in these threads and on these topics. The reason is that I like to
> achieve a balance and make sure that I contribute something. Contrary to
> most, I still believe that words are stones and one has to carefully
> balance issues.
>
>
> The propaganda is intolerable as much as the a-historical representation
> of facts.
>
>
> Andreas, I did not want to write immediately about your 'smackdown' of
> Mathias Fuchs at the beginning of this thread. Like you, I very much like
> facts, but I think you might be too confident in the 'innocence of NATO'
> and yes, unfortunately so, the world is divided into imperialistic spheres
> of influence. There are three links that I would like to provide in order
> to show, with facts, that NATO is not innocent: the first is this link to
> an old article from November 14, 1990:
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1990/11/14/cia-organized-secret-army-in-western-europe/e0305101-97b9-4494-bc18-d89f42497d85/
>
> "Andreotti said he believes the operation should now be dismantled, given
> the new "'climate which has freed us from the nightmare of wars and
> divisions.''
>
> When Andreotti is speaking of *divisions*, he refers to political
> internal divisions for which the right side of the political spectrum would
> have weapons to use against the other side. He refers to the Gladio
> Organization which was a CIA/NATO operation that created a secret
> organization that kept stashes of weapons in the Western States and trained
> men to fight in case of war with Russia but also in case of internal
> political divisions that would move the country away from the US approved
> political thinking.
>
>
> The second link is to an announcement titled "Gladio: The Short Sword of
> State Sponsored Terrorism" of a book *NATO's Secret Armies
> https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2010/4/1/853084/-
>  .*
>
>
> The third link is to this documentary by the BBC (a non-biased source for
> those who prefer a more institutional news outlet)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3IkbhKv598 .
>
>
> NATO represents the arm of a sphere of influence in Europe to protect
> American interests. Why has it not been dismantled after the Cold War?
>
> It is too easy to write that NATO is innocent, assuming the righteousness
> of the Ukrainian cause, in this case, or in any other war of 'our' side
> versus 'theirs'. It is, unfortunately, a historically correct fact that
> NATO has interfered to promote US interests, even with state sponsored
> terrorisms within the borders of its own allies. To assume the innocence of
> NATO means to blindly participate and support imperialist causes. I would
> like to remind everyone of the Cuban 

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Lanfranco Aceti]

Dear Carsten,


I wanted to say that I totally agree with you. I am shocked by the war
rhetoric and its poisonous influence. It makes it more difficult for me to
write since I am a slow and careful writer, particularly when posting
online in these threads and on these topics. The reason is that I like to
achieve a balance and make sure that I contribute something. Contrary to
most, I still believe that words are stones and one has to carefully
balance issues.


The propaganda is intolerable as much as the a-historical representation of
facts.


Andreas, I did not want to write immediately about your 'smackdown' of
Mathias Fuchs at the beginning of this thread. Like you, I very much like
facts, but I think you might be too confident in the 'innocence of NATO'
and yes, unfortunately so, the world is divided into imperialistic spheres
of influence. There are three links that I would like to provide in order
to show, with facts, that NATO is not innocent: the first is this link to
an old article from November 14, 1990:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1990/11/14/cia-organized-secret-army-in-western-europe/e0305101-97b9-4494-bc18-d89f42497d85/

"Andreotti said he believes the operation should now be dismantled, given
the new "'climate which has freed us from the nightmare of wars and
divisions.''

When Andreotti is speaking of *divisions*, he refers to political internal
divisions for which the right side of the political spectrum would have
weapons to use against the other side. He refers to the Gladio Organization
which was a CIA/NATO operation that created a secret organization that kept
stashes of weapons in the Western States and trained men to fight in case
of war with Russia but also in case of internal political divisions that
would move the country away from the US approved political thinking.


The second link is to an announcement titled "Gladio: The Short Sword of
State Sponsored Terrorism" of a book *NATO's Secret Armies
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2010/4/1/853084/-
 .*


The third link is to this documentary by the BBC (a non-biased source for
those who prefer a more institutional news outlet)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3IkbhKv598 .


NATO represents the arm of a sphere of influence in Europe to protect
American interests. Why has it not been dismantled after the Cold War?

It is too easy to write that NATO is innocent, assuming the righteousness
of the Ukrainian cause, in this case, or in any other war of 'our' side
versus 'theirs'. It is, unfortunately, a historically correct fact that
NATO has interfered to promote US interests, even with state sponsored
terrorisms within the borders of its own allies. To assume the innocence of
NATO means to blindly participate and support imperialist causes. I would
like to remind everyone of the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 when the
Russians placed their missiles on the island threatening the mainland of
the US in response to US installation of missiles installed in Italy and
Turkey and directed to the former U.S.S.R. Cubans are still under embargo
from the United States and the restrictions were not lifted, not even
during COVID. I haven't seen the Europeans' outrage against this Cold War
archaic foreign policy that has hindered the social development of Cuba. No
outrage, not even during the current pandemic. I see that there is a
wonderful selection of what to be conveniently outraged at. Certainly not
the same outrage for Libya and for the ousting and killing of Muammar
Gaddafi, for example, or the many other wars and destabilization of
democracies across the world. The consequence has been the death toll that
an Obama administration policy has had on African and all other immigrants
attempting to reach Europe via Greece and Italy by passing through what is
now a failed state and making the Mediterranean a tomb for children, women,
and men alike. The racialized outrage of Europe for worthy and unworthy
victims continues to be particularly problematic and largely unaddressed.


The sphere of influence of the United States expands to Central and Latin
American countries with over a century of policies that have produced some
of the worst dictatorships in the world. Pinochet's dictatorship is just
one of the very many that first comes to mind.

This is a good handbook to begin with if anyone has any interest in reading
about this topic:
https://www.amazon.com/US-Power-Latin-America-Routledge-ebook/dp/B072L187Q5/ref=sr_1_5?crid=38JGYE9MTLKZO=us+foreign+policy+latin+america=1646235180=us+foreign+policy+latin+america%2Caps%2C154=8-5=B072L187Q5==2=1


Regarding the role of NATO in Europe, may I remind you all that Italy, by
having one of the strongest communist parties in Europe, was at the
forefront of some of the worst operations carried out by a foreign power,
through local groups, to keep Italians firmly in the center-right of the
political spectrum and aligned with NATO.


I 

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[carsten stabenow]

depends on how you define ‚disinformation‘
crimethInc has a clear history, easily to track 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CrimethInc.)

thanks andreas for opening up the discussion here!
i’m personally shocked by the war rhetoric from all sides. i worked the past 25 
years with artists from ukraine and russia in context trying to make borders 
unnecessary, call me naive, but i’m still 100% that we have to stand together 
against any kind of war - boycotts in the cultural sector would be confession 
of failure. (my subjective position)

there was just a post by geert lovink on nettime with many proposals for 
constructive action:
https://nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-2203/msg5.html

best, carsten


> Am 02.03.2022 um 15:49 schrieb Matias Schüttenberg :
> 
> Is this the same desinformation campaign from Social Networks?? 
> 
> Has someone researched on this subject there?
> 
> 
> On 2 Mar 2022 10:39, "Nicolas Montgermont"  > wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> Maybe it is good to have the point of view of some political groups in 
> Ukraine and Russia.
> 
> Here is an article from some anti anti-authoritarian ukrainian groups that is 
> two weeks old:
> https://en.crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine
>  
> 
> 
> Here is one by russian anarchists, updated one week ago.
> https://en.crimethinc.com/2022/02/26/russian-anarchists-on-resisting-the-invasion-of-ukraine-updates-and-analysis
>  
> 
> 
> They really helped me to understand the political situation!
> Best,
> n
> 
> PS : forgive me if these were already posted here.
> 
> https://nimon.org 
> Le 02/03/2022 à 11:48, Spyros Boukas a écrit :
>> 
>> Hi everyone, 
>> 
>> I would like to share some thoughts that I have had since last week.
>> I apologize in advance for my English :) 
>> 
>> 
>> This is a world war that didn’t start last week.
>>   
>> It has started many years ago.
>>   
>> It has started straight after the end of the ‘’cold war’’ that was not cold 
>> at all.
>>   
>> It started with the first Gulf War in 1990, were the western Alliances 
>> attacked Iraq. 
>> And it continued with the occupation and destruction of many eastern 
>> countries since then. 
>> But in western countries and western media this was not a problem, because 
>> we were the ones that were bombing.
>> And because the dead people were Muslims.
>> 
>> In 1995 there was a massacre in Kosovo, the biggest massacre after the 
>> second world war, in which all the European countries took part, by their 
>> silence. 
>> And still, this was not a problem, because the dead people were Muslims. 
>> Here in Greece, the media were saying that the people were bombing their 
>> city by themselves 
>> because they were fanatic Muslims (the same ideology that continued with the 
>> second war in Iraq)
>> 
>> Now that the country that is attacking is not a western country, it is 
>> called war.
>> As if previously we were having peace in the world.
>>   
>> In Ukraine from 2014 there is a war and since then, 14000 people have died. 
>> If we look back when this started, we can see that this is something that 
>> was pushed from the western countries back then. 
>> By sending weapons and supporting the para-military of Ukraine and helping 
>> to establish a Fascist regime that oppresses the people and the working 
>> class of Ukraine 
>> and forwards neonazi ideologies and practices.
>>   
>>  
>> As the global Capitalistic crisis rises more and more, the war probably will 
>> come closer to us. 
>> But whenever the Bosses of this world are making wars to compete for their 
>> geopolitical thirst and capitalism expansion, we are the ones who always 
>> die...
>>   
>> As the war expands, our personal or collective dilemmas for participation 
>> for sure will get stronger. 
>> We should not join any National flag. We should fight in our countries 
>> against their participation in any war, 
>> because we will be the victims of something that we only have to lose. 
>> We have to lose our friends and beloved people’s lives or even our lives.
>> 
>> We won’t fight for anyone. 
>> 
>> Peace among the people, War among the Classes.
>>   
>> Together with the Oppressed people of Ukraine who are fighting against this 
>> war.
>>   
>> Together with the Oppressed and arrested people of Russia, who are fighting 
>> against this war.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  Virus-free. www.avast.com 
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 3:36 PM Lanfranco Aceti > 

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Matias Schüttenberg]

Is this the same desinformation campaign from Social Networks??

Has someone researched on this subject there?


On 2 Mar 2022 10:39, "Nicolas Montgermont"  wrote:

Hello everyone,

Maybe it is good to have the point of view of some political groups in
Ukraine and Russia.

Here is an article from some anti anti-authoritarian ukrainian groups that
is two weeks old:
https://en.crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine

Here is one by russian anarchists, updated one week ago.
https://en.crimethinc.com/2022/02/26/russian-anarchists-on-resisting-the-invasion-of-ukraine-updates-and-analysis

They really helped me to understand the political situation!
Best,
n

PS : forgive me if these were already posted here.

https://nimon.org

Le 02/03/2022 à 11:48, Spyros Boukas a écrit :


Hi everyone,

I would like to share some thoughts that I have had since last week.
I apologize in advance for my English :)


This is a world war that didn’t start last week.

It has started many years ago.

It has started straight after the end of the ‘’cold war’’ that was not cold
at all.

It started with the first Gulf War in 1990, were the western Alliances
attacked Iraq.
And it continued with the occupation and destruction of many eastern
countries since then.
But in western countries and western media this was not a problem, because
we were the ones that were bombing.
And because the dead people were Muslims.

In 1995 there was a massacre in Kosovo, the biggest massacre after the
second world war, in which all the European countries took part, by their
silence.
And still, this was not a problem, because the dead people were Muslims.
Here in Greece, the media were saying that the people were bombing their
city by themselves
because they were fanatic Muslims (the same ideology that continued with
the second war in Iraq)

Now that the country that is attacking is not a western country, it is
called war.
As if previously we were having peace in the world.

In Ukraine from 2014 there is a war and since then, 14000 people have died.
If we look back when this started, we can see that this is something that
was pushed from the western countries back then.
By sending weapons and supporting the para-military of Ukraine and helping
to establish a Fascist regime that oppresses the people and the working
class of Ukraine
and forwards neonazi ideologies and practices.


As the global Capitalistic crisis rises more and more, the war probably
will come closer to us.
But whenever the Bosses of this world are making wars to compete for their
geopolitical thirst and capitalism expansion, we are the ones who always
die...

As the war expands, our personal or collective dilemmas for participation
for sure will get stronger.
We should not join any National flag. We should fight in our countries
against their participation in any war,
because we will be the victims of something that we only have to lose.
We have to lose our friends and beloved people’s lives or even our lives.

We won’t fight for anyone.

Peace among the people, War among the Classes.

Together with the Oppressed people of Ukraine who are fighting against this
war.

Together with the Oppressed and arrested people of Russia, who are fighting
against this war.







Virus-free.
www.avast.com


On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 3:36 PM Lanfranco Aceti 
wrote:

> *April 5, 2021*
> https://www.cato.org/commentary/joe-bidens-ukraine-policy-repeat-george-w-bush-georgia
>
> *April 21, 2021*
> https://www.cato.org/commentary/time-cure-americas-clientitis-over-ukraine
>
> Dear Andreas, and everyone else, I hope you are well... Nice to see that
> you still can keep this unruly flock to toe the red line :
>
> I hope you will enjoy the links. I do not approve or disapprove of the
> Cato Institute, I just find their writing very telling of a US mindset and
> liked the fact that these opinions were voiced almost a year ago.
>
> This clarification is in case someone would want to accuse me of being a
> puppet or client of the Cato Institute. By the way, to be a client one
> should have been paid something. Unfortunately, I haven't. :) (For
> those who might misunderstand, I would like to alert you to the fact that
> this paragraph is a sarcasm, including the present disclaimer.)
>
>
>
> Lanfranco Aceti, Ph.D.
> Artist, Curator, and Academic
>
> *Preferring Sinking to Surrender*, Venice Architecture Biennale, 2021
>
> *Tools for Catching Clouds*
> https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/tools-for-catching-clouds/
> *Preferring Sinking to Surrender*, Part I
> https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/preferring-sinking-to-surrender-part-i/
>
> *Preferring Sinking to Surrender*, Part II
> 

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Nicolas Montgermont]

Hello everyone,

Maybe it is good to have the point of view of some political groups in 
Ukraine and Russia.


Here is an article from some anti anti-authoritarian ukrainian groups 
that is two weeks old:

https://en.crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine

Here is one by russian anarchists, updated one week ago.
https://en.crimethinc.com/2022/02/26/russian-anarchists-on-resisting-the-invasion-of-ukraine-updates-and-analysis

They really helped me to understand the political situation!
Best,
n

PS : forgive me if these were already posted here.

https://nimon.org

Le 02/03/2022 à 11:48, Spyros Boukas a écrit :


Hi everyone,

I would like to share some thoughts that I have had since last week.
I apologize in advance for my English :)


This is a world war that didn’t start last week.

It has started many years ago.

It has started straight after the end of the ‘’cold war’’ that was not 
cold at all.


It started with the first Gulf War in 1990, were the western Alliances 
attacked Iraq.
And it continued with the occupation and destruction of many eastern 
countries since then.
But in western countries and western media this was not a problem, 
because we were the ones that were bombing.

And because the dead people were Muslims.

In 1995 there was a massacre in Kosovo, the biggest massacre after the 
second world war, in which all the European countries took part, by 
their silence.
And still, this was not a problem, because the dead people were 
Muslims. Here in Greece, the media were saying that the people were 
bombing their city by themselves
because they were fanatic Muslims (the same ideology that continued 
with the second war in Iraq)


Now that the country that is attacking is not a western country, it is 
called war.

As if previously we were having peace in the world.

In Ukraine from 2014 there is a war and since then, 14000 people have 
died.
If we look back when this started, we can see that this is something 
that was pushed from the western countries back then.
By sending weapons and supporting the para-military of Ukraine and 
helping to establish a Fascist regime that oppresses the people and 
the working class of Ukraine

and forwards neonazi ideologies and practices.


As the global Capitalistic crisis rises more and more, the war 
probably will come closer to us.
But whenever the Bosses of this world are making wars to compete for 
their geopolitical thirst and capitalism expansion, we are the ones 
who always die...


As the war expands, our personal or collective dilemmas for 
participation for sure will get stronger.
We should not join any National flag. We should fight in our countries 
against their participation in any war,

because we will be the victims of something that we only have to lose.
We have to lose our friends and beloved people’s lives or even our lives.

We won’t fight for anyone.

Peace among the people, War among the Classes.

Together with the Oppressed people of Ukraine who are fighting against 
this war.


Together with the Oppressed and arrested people of Russia, who are 
fighting against this war.







 
	Virus-free. www.avast.com 
 




On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 3:36 PM Lanfranco Aceti 
 wrote:


*April 5, 2021*

https://www.cato.org/commentary/joe-bidens-ukraine-policy-repeat-george-w-bush-georgia

*April 21, 2021*
https://www.cato.org/commentary/time-cure-americas-clientitis-over-ukraine

Dear Andreas, and everyone else, I hope you are well... Nice to
see that you still can keep this unruly flock to toe the red
line :

I hope you will enjoy the links. I do not approve or disapprove of
the Cato Institute, I just find their writing very telling of a US
mindset and liked the fact that these opinions were voiced almost
a year ago.

This clarification is in case someone would want to accuse me of
being a puppet or client of the Cato Institute. By the way, to be
a client one should have been paid something. Unfortunately, I
haven't. :) (For those who might misunderstand, I would like
to alert you to the fact that this paragraph is a sarcasm,
including the present disclaimer.)



Lanfranco Aceti, Ph.D.
Artist, Curator, and Academic

/Preferring Sinking to Surrender/, Venice Architecture Biennale, 2021

/Tools for Catching Clouds/
https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/tools-for-catching-clouds/
/Preferring Sinking to Surrender/, Part I

https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/preferring-sinking-to-surrender-part-i/

/Preferring Sinking to Surrender/, Part II

https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/preferring-sinking-to-surrender-part-ii/
/Sacred Waters/

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Spyros Boukas]

Hi everyone,

I would like to share some thoughts that I have had since last week.
I apologize in advance for my English :)


This is a world war that didn’t start last week.

It has started many years ago.

It has started straight after the end of the ‘’cold war’’ that was not cold
at all.

It started with the first Gulf War in 1990, were the western Alliances
attacked Iraq.
And it continued with the occupation and destruction of many eastern
countries since then.
But in western countries and western media this was not a problem, because
we were the ones that were bombing.
And because the dead people were Muslims.

In 1995 there was a massacre in Kosovo, the biggest massacre after the
second world war, in which all the European countries took part, by their
silence.
And still, this was not a problem, because the dead people were Muslims.
Here in Greece, the media were saying that the people were bombing their
city by themselves
because they were fanatic Muslims (the same ideology that continued with
the second war in Iraq)

Now that the country that is attacking is not a western country, it is
called war.
As if previously we were having peace in the world.

In Ukraine from 2014 there is a war and since then, 14000 people have died.
If we look back when this started, we can see that this is something that
was pushed from the western countries back then.
By sending weapons and supporting the para-military of Ukraine and helping
to establish a Fascist regime that oppresses the people and the working
class of Ukraine
and forwards neonazi ideologies and practices.


As the global Capitalistic crisis rises more and more, the war probably
will come closer to us.
But whenever the Bosses of this world are making wars to compete for their
geopolitical thirst and capitalism expansion, we are the ones who always
die...

As the war expands, our personal or collective dilemmas for participation
for sure will get stronger.
We should not join any National flag. We should fight in our countries
against their participation in any war,
because we will be the victims of something that we only have to lose.
We have to lose our friends and beloved people’s lives or even our lives.

We won’t fight for anyone.

Peace among the people, War among the Classes.

Together with the Oppressed people of Ukraine who are fighting against this
war.

Together with the Oppressed and arrested people of Russia, who are fighting
against this war.







Virus-free.
www.avast.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 3:36 PM Lanfranco Aceti 
wrote:

> *April 5, 2021*
> https://www.cato.org/commentary/joe-bidens-ukraine-policy-repeat-george-w-bush-georgia
>
> *April 21, 2021*
> https://www.cato.org/commentary/time-cure-americas-clientitis-over-ukraine
>
> Dear Andreas, and everyone else, I hope you are well... Nice to see that
> you still can keep this unruly flock to toe the red line :
>
> I hope you will enjoy the links. I do not approve or disapprove of the
> Cato Institute, I just find their writing very telling of a US mindset and
> liked the fact that these opinions were voiced almost a year ago.
>
> This clarification is in case someone would want to accuse me of being a
> puppet or client of the Cato Institute. By the way, to be a client one
> should have been paid something. Unfortunately, I haven't. :) (For
> those who might misunderstand, I would like to alert you to the fact that
> this paragraph is a sarcasm, including the present disclaimer.)
>
>
>
> Lanfranco Aceti, Ph.D.
> Artist, Curator, and Academic
>
> *Preferring Sinking to Surrender*, Venice Architecture Biennale, 2021
>
> *Tools for Catching Clouds*
> https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/tools-for-catching-clouds/
> *Preferring Sinking to Surrender*, Part I
> https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/preferring-sinking-to-surrender-part-i/
>
> *Preferring Sinking to Surrender*, Part II
> https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/preferring-sinking-to-surrender-part-ii/
> *Sacred Waters*
> https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/sacred-waters/
> *Le Schiavone*
> https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/le-schiavone/
> *Orthós* https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/orthos/
> *Seven Veils* https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/seven-veils/
>
>
>
> Lanfranco Aceti http://www.lanfrancoaceti.com
> Director and Founder, MoCC http://www.museumofcontemporarycuts.org
> Editor in Chief LEA, MIT Press http://www.leoalmanac.org
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 1:50 PM Andreas Broeckmann 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> folks,
>>
>> please, refrain from personal insults; it's one of the "red lines" that
>> this co-moderator and co-list-owner draws.
>>
>> best regards,
>>
>> -a
>> 

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Lanfranco Aceti]

*April 5, 2021*
https://www.cato.org/commentary/joe-bidens-ukraine-policy-repeat-george-w-bush-georgia

*April 21, 2021*
https://www.cato.org/commentary/time-cure-americas-clientitis-over-ukraine

Dear Andreas, and everyone else, I hope you are well... Nice to see that
you still can keep this unruly flock to toe the red line :

I hope you will enjoy the links. I do not approve or disapprove of the Cato
Institute, I just find their writing very telling of a US mindset and liked
the fact that these opinions were voiced almost a year ago.

This clarification is in case someone would want to accuse me of being a
puppet or client of the Cato Institute. By the way, to be a client one
should have been paid something. Unfortunately, I haven't. :) (For
those who might misunderstand, I would like to alert you to the fact that
this paragraph is a sarcasm, including the present disclaimer.)



Lanfranco Aceti, Ph.D.
Artist, Curator, and Academic

*Preferring Sinking to Surrender*, Venice Architecture Biennale, 2021

*Tools for Catching Clouds*
https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/tools-for-catching-clouds/
*Preferring Sinking to Surrender*, Part I
https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/preferring-sinking-to-surrender-part-i/

*Preferring Sinking to Surrender*, Part II
https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/preferring-sinking-to-surrender-part-ii/
*Sacred Waters*
https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/sacred-waters/
*Le Schiavone* https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/le-schiavone/
*Orthós* https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/orthos/
*Seven Veils* https://www.lanfrancoaceti.com/portfolio-items/seven-veils/



Lanfranco Aceti http://www.lanfrancoaceti.com
Director and Founder, MoCC http://www.museumofcontemporarycuts.org
Editor in Chief LEA, MIT Press http://www.leoalmanac.org



On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 1:50 PM Andreas Broeckmann 
wrote:

>
> folks,
>
> please, refrain from personal insults; it's one of the "red lines" that
> this co-moderator and co-list-owner draws.
>
> best regards,
>
> -a
> __
> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
> Info, archive and help:
> http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
>
__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Helen Varley Jamieson]

for a feminist & pacifist response, see WILPF's statement: 
https://www.wilpf.org/call-to-action-no-more-wars-not-now-not-ever-again/ 
- it's a call for unity around the message of no more wars.


however that statement is dated 14th february so before the actual 
invasion. more current is this open letter to fridays for future, 
written yesterday, calling to unite ecological and pacifist movements, 
and appealing to youth: 
https://www.wilpf.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Letter-WILPF-Ukraine-for-FFF-1.pdf.


so the feminist pacifist response is calls for unity and non-violence.

On 25.02.22 11:13, Mathias Fuchs wrote:


Dear Andreas,

thanks for your thoughtful reply to my quick email. You have a point 
there, of course, and I would like to draw back the "not innocent" notion.


When you ask about the "feminist and pacifist response", I can only 
offer a kind of politics that seems to have gone out of fashion: 
Neutrality. No weapons pointing towards any neighbouring borders, no 
membership in any military organisation.


The country that you know I come from made a decision in October 1955 
to declare itself as a nation of  "immerwährender Neutralität" 
(eternal neutrality). Well, this everlasting condition did not last 
forever, but it at least the agreement kept the US and the USSR from 
stationing troops in Austria.


And once more: my full sympathies for the Ucranian people who has to 
suffer now.


Best

Mathias

On 25.02.22 10:13, Andreas Broeckmann wrote:

Dear Mathias,

I hesitate because this argument will change nothing, and more 
knowledgeable people are making it more elegantly elsewhere, I hope. 
But I want to shortly respond to your claim that "NATO is not 
completely innocent of what is going on". From my point of view, this 
is only true if you regard the Russian claims for its "security" as 
legitimate and (I find it hard to imagine that you would condone 
this) if you think that the specific current Russian "response" to 
the "threat" posed by NATO is therefore in some way justifiable. 
(What else, from an ethical point of view, could the phrase "not 
innocent" mean?)


Do you believe that, in order not to become co-responsible for the 
current situation (what you call "not innocent"), when the Baltic 
countries requested membership in NATO around 2000, the Western 
alliance should have said, "no, sorry folks, we cannot do this out of 
respect for the security concerns of the Russian Federation"?


To the contrary, I would claim that, whatever the circumstances, the 
Russian military attack on Ukraine, the threats and brutality towards 
deposing the elected Ukrainian government, the quasi-annexation of 
the eastern Ukrainian region (and of the Crimean peninsula, we should 
not forget) are illegitimate, and the misery, death and destruction 
that this war is bringing to people is unjustifiable and awful.


However, what concerns me more than such weird "shares of guilt" 
discussions is the question what a feminist and pacifist response or 
attitude can be in the current situation.


Best regards,

-a


Am 24.02.22 um 19:11 schrieb Mathias Fuchs:

Dear friends and neighbours,

with all shared emotions about the horrible things that happen in 
the Ukraine and with particular sympathies for the victims of 
Russia's invasion, might I still put up a thought for discussion?


I saw elderly ladies in the streets of Berlin today carrying signs 
saying "Fuck Putin". This is maybe understandable at a private level 
of anger, but it underanalysis what is going on there.


Putin is not an individual devil who wants to destroy a nation. The 
actions taking are in my view a reaction to international politics 
that are a well coordinated maneuvres of Russian Intelligence, 
Russian Business and Russian Military. Not Putin as a person.


The Capitalist West has expanded zones of monetary interest and of 
military influence towards the East since 1991. NATO countries are 
at the border of Russia. This is as if Russia would have installed 
missiles in Canada, Cuba, and Mexico. Do you remember the histeria 
when the Soviet Union set up missiles in Cuba?



I hope that this conflict will be solved without costs of life and 
the Ukrainian friends have my full sympathies, but we should not 
fool ourselves into "Putin did it". This is a much more complex 
issue and the NATO is not completely innocent of what is going on 
there.


Do you remember that NATO is short for "North Atlantic Treaty 
Organization"? Is the Ukraine on the North Atlantic? Why does NATO 
want to expand to control the entire continent? Could you consider 
to be a Russian citizen and be frightened by a military organisation 
trying to take over the whole of Europe?



Thanks for your thoughts

Mathias

--
Dr. habil. Mathias Fuchs
IFK Internationales Forschungszentrum Kulturwissenschaften
  Reichsratsstraße 17
  1010 Wien, Austria

Institute of Culture and Aesthetics of Digital Media (ICAM)
  Universitätsstr. 1
  21335 Lüneburg

Co-Editor 

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Andreas Broeckmann]

folks,

please, refrain from personal insults; it's one of the "red lines" that 
this co-moderator and co-list-owner draws.


best regards,

-a
__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Joseph Rabie]

> Le 25 févr. 2022 à 11:26, heath bunting  a écrit :
> 
> but i became uncomfortable when it was revealed that another source of income 
> was organ harvesting of captured living serbian police and soldiers


Pity you didn't take advantage of that to get a brain with a little more 
discernment.



__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Raivo Kelomees]

Hello all,

Just to answer your sentence Mathias Fuchs: "The Capitalist West has 
expanded zones of monetary interest and of military influence towards 
the East since 1991. NATO countries are at the border of Russia."


You write like here, in the East, is some sort of desert or swamp where 
NATO entered. You can assume that it could be the peoples will here as 
well to join NATO, or in fact any non-Russian protective military power, 
which is the way to detach yourself from your neighbor. Why? The 
historic experience living in this corner of Europe (Estonia, and 
probably all Baltic) has shown consistency of behavior of our neighbor 
Russia through the centuries. It wants to "expand" their borders as 
their is constantly some "threat" from outside. This induced paranoia 
prevails their leaders. The NATO provides opportunity to move "further" 
into West, to build stronger walls and protect nations living here. As 
the experience being alone we have had already in the 1930ies.


What concerns war in Ukraine, then mostly Putin is responsible. You are 
underestimating personal traits of autocrats which influences their 
decisions. My impression after seeing the meeting of defense board and 
hearing that parliament allowed to use military force outside the 
Russia, that there is no parliament and collective leadership in Russia 
anymore. There is no alternative opinions among decision makers. You can 
call it new Stalinism or reincarnation of it, but the fact is that some 
grim times are ahead. It is similar as during Soviet time, except the 
official power is Russia is much more "intelligent", which means they 
let to exist few alternative channels (with the label "foreign agent"), 
allowing to release steam, but all other society is fed by official TV news.


best regards

Raivo

Tallinn

On 24/02/2022 20:11, Mathias Fuchs wrote:

Dear friends and neighbours,

with all shared emotions about the horrible things that happen in the 
Ukraine and with particular sympathies for the victims of Russia's 
invasion, might I still put up a thought for discussion?


I saw elderly ladies in the streets of Berlin today carrying signs 
saying "Fuck Putin". This is maybe understandable at a private level 
of anger, but it underanalysis what is going on there.


Putin is not an individual devil who wants to destroy a nation. The 
actions taking are in my view a reaction to international politics 
that are a well coordinated maneuvres of Russian Intelligence, Russian 
Business and Russian Military. Not Putin as a person.


The Capitalist West has expanded zones of monetary interest and of 
military influence towards the East since 1991. NATO countries are at 
the border of Russia. This is as if Russia would have installed 
missiles in Canada, Cuba, and Mexico. Do you remember the histeria 
when the Soviet Union set up missiles in Cuba?



I hope that this conflict will be solved without costs of life and the 
Ukrainian friends have my full sympathies, but we should not fool 
ourselves into "Putin did it". This is a much more complex issue and 
the NATO is not completely innocent of what is going on there.


Do you remember that NATO is short for "North Atlantic Treaty 
Organization"? Is the Ukraine on the North Atlantic? Why does NATO 
want to expand to control the entire continent? Could you consider to 
be a Russian citizen and be frightened by a military organisation 
trying to take over the whole of Europe?



Thanks for your thoughts

Mathias




On 24.02.22 11:41, Andreas Broeckmann wrote:

Dear friends,

after the build-up of the last days and weeks, this morning we woke 
up to a terrible new situation. The Russian attack on Ukraine is a 
catastrophe, for the people and the country of Ukraine, and thus for 
Europe, and I believe also for Russia. This war will not only bring 
futile and awful destruction, but it will also change many things, 
not only in the Ukrainian territories now under attack.


I'm writing to open up this space for debate. You may have other 
channels for such discussions elsewhere (... it has been more than 
twenty years ago that the Syndicate list, the precursor to Spectre, 
was an important channel for such discussions during the conflict in 
Kosovo and the NATO attacks on Serbia). But this list, with its 
legacy of reflecting the diversity and solidarity of artists and 
cultural practitioners in "Deep Europe" and beyond, is certainly 
available for exchange, analysis and coordination if required.


If there are people here on the list who can report about the 
situation in Ukraine, they may want to inform their international 
colleagues about what forms of help and solidarity might be useful.


And if there are people (especially in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, 
etc.) who would like to write anonymously, please, feel free to write 
to me and I will anonymise and forward any reasonable messages.


Andreas
__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep 

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Oliver Grau]

Dear Andreas, dear Folks,

getting out of all this terrible development would be possible, if the old idea 
of bringing Russia into NATO would be readdressed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93NATO_relations#Suggestions_of_Russia_joining_NATO
If the corrupt Ukraine has a theoretical chance to get in, then also Russia 
(not the Putin Regime now, but if the country gets a perspective, things might 
get better again..)
Already during my last lecture tour throughout the Ukraine the colleagues were 
split: In the west, they were oriented towards Poland and Austria and Germany, 
in the Center Kiew approx.. 60:40 pro EU etc. in Charkiv towards Russia. It is 
sad that the EU could not develop a plan to support the Ukraine becoming a 
bridge towards Russia, so that the country could have benefitted from both 
sites.

We have no interest in an authoritarian (capitalist-oligarchic) Russia (almost 
like the Trump US..) building a superpower block with the dictatorship of the 
communist party in China, which will now see its chance to attack the democracy 
of Taiwan..

Best, Oliver



Von: SPECTRE  Im Auftrag von Mathias Fuchs
Gesendet: Freitag, 25. Februar 2022 11:13
An: Andreas Broeckmann ; spectre 

Betreff: Re: [spectre] a terrible day


Dear Andreas,

thanks for your thoughtful reply to my quick email. You have a point there, of 
course, and I would like to draw back the "not innocent" notion.

When you ask about the "feminist and pacifist response", I can only offer a 
kind of politics that seems to have gone out of fashion: Neutrality. No weapons 
pointing towards any neighbouring borders, no membership in any military 
organisation.

The country that you know I come from made a decision in October 1955 to 
declare itself as a nation of  "immerwährender Neutralität" (eternal 
neutrality). Well, this everlasting condition did not last forever, but it at 
least the agreement kept the US and the USSR from stationing troops in Austria.

And once more: my full sympathies for the Ucranian people who has to suffer now.

Best

Mathias

On 25.02.22 10:13, Andreas Broeckmann wrote:
Dear Mathias,

I hesitate because this argument will change nothing, and more knowledgeable 
people are making it more elegantly elsewhere, I hope. But I want to shortly 
respond to your claim that "NATO is not completely innocent of what is going 
on". From my point of view, this is only true if you regard the Russian claims 
for its "security" as legitimate and (I find it hard to imagine that you would 
condone this) if you think that the specific current Russian "response" to the 
"threat" posed by NATO is therefore in some way justifiable. (What else, from 
an ethical point of view, could the phrase "not innocent" mean?)

Do you believe that, in order not to become co-responsible for the current 
situation (what you call "not innocent"), when the Baltic countries requested 
membership in NATO around 2000, the Western alliance should have said, "no, 
sorry folks, we cannot do this out of respect for the security concerns of the 
Russian Federation"?

To the contrary, I would claim that, whatever the circumstances, the Russian 
military attack on Ukraine, the threats and brutality towards deposing the 
elected Ukrainian government, the quasi-annexation of the eastern Ukrainian 
region (and of the Crimean peninsula, we should not forget) are illegitimate, 
and the misery, death and destruction that this war is bringing to people is 
unjustifiable and awful.

However, what concerns me more than such weird "shares of guilt" discussions is 
the question what a feminist and pacifist response or attitude can be in the 
current situation.

Best regards,

-a


Am 24.02.22 um 19:11 schrieb Mathias Fuchs:

Dear friends and neighbours,

with all shared emotions about the horrible things that happen in the Ukraine 
and with particular sympathies for the victims of Russia's invasion, might I 
still put up a thought for discussion?

I saw elderly ladies in the streets of Berlin today carrying signs saying "Fuck 
Putin". This is maybe understandable at a private level of anger, but it 
underanalysis what is going on there.

Putin is not an individual devil who wants to destroy a nation. The actions 
taking are in my view a reaction to international politics that are a well 
coordinated maneuvres of Russian Intelligence, Russian Business and Russian 
Military. Not Putin as a person.

The Capitalist West has expanded zones of monetary interest and of military 
influence towards the East since 1991. NATO countries are at the border of 
Russia. This is as if Russia would have installed missiles in Canada, Cuba, and 
Mexico. Do you remember the histeria when the Soviet Union set up missiles in 
Cuba?


I hope that this conflict will be solved without costs of life and the 
Ukrainian friends have my full sympathies, but we should not

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[heath bunting]

i don't understand discursive protocols anymore - so tell me to shut-up if 
i am being out of order, but i feel artists must be able to attempt to 
speak truth - at least to each other



NATO must intervene now to stop this bloody bath to help suffering Ukrainian 
population.


i was involved in the nato intervention in kosova

i worked for the nato championed kla maintaining their radio stations
and attempted to build them a tv station from war debris - failed

i accepted that they funded their operations through drug trafficking as 
rogue heroes, but i became uncomfortable when it was revealed that another 
source of income was organ harvesting of captured living serbian police 
and soldiers


this was my personal entry into the dark reality of nato operations such 
as the assassination of oppositional artists


imperial armies use un-imaginable evil to secure victory over 
non-compliant nation states__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Mathias Fuchs]

Dear Andreas,

thanks for your thoughtful reply to my quick email. You have a point 
there, of course, and I would like to draw back the "not innocent" notion.


When you ask about the "feminist and pacifist response", I can only 
offer a kind of politics that seems to have gone out of fashion: 
Neutrality. No weapons pointing towards any neighbouring borders, no 
membership in any military organisation.


The country that you know I come from made a decision in October 1955 to 
declare itself as a nation of  "immerwährender Neutralität" (eternal 
neutrality). Well, this everlasting condition did not last forever, but 
it at least the agreement kept the US and the USSR from stationing 
troops in Austria.


And once more: my full sympathies for the Ucranian people who has to 
suffer now.


Best

Mathias

On 25.02.22 10:13, Andreas Broeckmann wrote:

Dear Mathias,

I hesitate because this argument will change nothing, and more 
knowledgeable people are making it more elegantly elsewhere, I hope. 
But I want to shortly respond to your claim that "NATO is not 
completely innocent of what is going on". From my point of view, this 
is only true if you regard the Russian claims for its "security" as 
legitimate and (I find it hard to imagine that you would condone this) 
if you think that the specific current Russian "response" to the 
"threat" posed by NATO is therefore in some way justifiable. (What 
else, from an ethical point of view, could the phrase "not innocent" 
mean?)


Do you believe that, in order not to become co-responsible for the 
current situation (what you call "not innocent"), when the Baltic 
countries requested membership in NATO around 2000, the Western 
alliance should have said, "no, sorry folks, we cannot do this out of 
respect for the security concerns of the Russian Federation"?


To the contrary, I would claim that, whatever the circumstances, the 
Russian military attack on Ukraine, the threats and brutality towards 
deposing the elected Ukrainian government, the quasi-annexation of the 
eastern Ukrainian region (and of the Crimean peninsula, we should not 
forget) are illegitimate, and the misery, death and destruction that 
this war is bringing to people is unjustifiable and awful.


However, what concerns me more than such weird "shares of guilt" 
discussions is the question what a feminist and pacifist response or 
attitude can be in the current situation.


Best regards,

-a


Am 24.02.22 um 19:11 schrieb Mathias Fuchs:

Dear friends and neighbours,

with all shared emotions about the horrible things that happen in the 
Ukraine and with particular sympathies for the victims of Russia's 
invasion, might I still put up a thought for discussion?


I saw elderly ladies in the streets of Berlin today carrying signs 
saying "Fuck Putin". This is maybe understandable at a private level 
of anger, but it underanalysis what is going on there.


Putin is not an individual devil who wants to destroy a nation. The 
actions taking are in my view a reaction to international politics 
that are a well coordinated maneuvres of Russian Intelligence, 
Russian Business and Russian Military. Not Putin as a person.


The Capitalist West has expanded zones of monetary interest and of 
military influence towards the East since 1991. NATO countries are at 
the border of Russia. This is as if Russia would have installed 
missiles in Canada, Cuba, and Mexico. Do you remember the histeria 
when the Soviet Union set up missiles in Cuba?



I hope that this conflict will be solved without costs of life and 
the Ukrainian friends have my full sympathies, but we should not fool 
ourselves into "Putin did it". This is a much more complex issue and 
the NATO is not completely innocent of what is going on there.


Do you remember that NATO is short for "North Atlantic Treaty 
Organization"? Is the Ukraine on the North Atlantic? Why does NATO 
want to expand to control the entire continent? Could you consider to 
be a Russian citizen and be frightened by a military organisation 
trying to take over the whole of Europe?



Thanks for your thoughts

Mathias


--
Dr. habil. Mathias Fuchs
IFK Internationales Forschungszentrum Kulturwissenschaften
 Reichsratsstraße 17
 1010 Wien, Austria

Institute of Culture and Aesthetics of Digital Media (ICAM)
 Universitätsstr. 1
 21335 Lüneburg

Co-Editor Journal Digital Culture & Society
http://www.transcript-verlag.de/zeitschriften/digital-culture-und-society/


Residential Address: Kleistgasse 9, 1030 Wien, Austria
http://creativegames.org.uk/
__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Matias Schüttenberg]

Nice to make a Thread about the subject.
Was it Covid the end of the world. Or is this situation now the end?
What a especial times we are facing. And it looks it happens from time to
time. So I am not sure till which point technology is helping societies
today.
Who is to blame?
Ukraine has given away their nuclear power in exchange of protection. And
economic Blockade are really efficient today. But what makes this leaders
take that decisions and no others?

Something to think about.
Hope to see you somewhere in EU soon

Mattti


On Thu, 24 Feb 2022, 07:42 Andreas Broeckmann, 
wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
> after the build-up of the last days and weeks, this morning we woke up
> to a terrible new situation. The Russian attack on Ukraine is a
> catastrophe, for the people and the country of Ukraine, and thus for
> Europe, and I believe also for Russia. This war will not only bring
> futile and awful destruction, but it will also change many things, not
> only in the Ukrainian territories now under attack.
>
> I'm writing to open up this space for debate. You may have other
> channels for such discussions elsewhere (... it has been more than
> twenty years ago that the Syndicate list, the precursor to Spectre, was
> an important channel for such discussions during the conflict in Kosovo
> and the NATO attacks on Serbia). But this list, with its legacy of
> reflecting the diversity and solidarity of artists and cultural
> practitioners in "Deep Europe" and beyond, is certainly available for
> exchange, analysis and coordination if required.
>
> If there are people here on the list who can report about the situation
> in Ukraine, they may want to inform their international colleagues about
> what forms of help and solidarity might be useful.
>
> And if there are people (especially in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc.)
> who would like to write anonymously, please, feel free to write to me
> and I will anonymise and forward any reasonable messages.
>
> Andreas
> __
> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
> Info, archive and help:
> http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre
>
__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[heath bunting]

fortunately, most interested parties in the ukraine conflict are using 
their standard modus operandi, making studies of previous operations 
instructive.


syria is an obvious example to guide us in narratives management, 
trusted voices, innocence and outcomes.


eva bartlett and vanessa beeley would be good starting points.




On Fri, 25 Feb 2022, Andreas Broeckmann wrote:


Dear Mathias,

I hesitate because this argument will change nothing, and more 
knowledgeable people are making it more elegantly elsewhere, I hope. But 
I want to shortly respond to your claim that "NATO is not completely 
innocent of what is going on". From my point of view, this is only true 
if you regard the Russian claims for its "security" as legitimate and (I 
find it hard to imagine that you would condone this) if you think that 
the specific current Russian "response" to the "threat" posed by NATO is 
therefore in some way justifiable. (What else, from an ethical point of 
view, could the phrase "not innocent" mean?)


Do you believe that, in order not to become co-responsible for the 
current situation (what you call "not innocent"), when the Baltic 
countries requested membership in NATO around 2000, the Western alliance 
should have said, "no, sorry folks, we cannot do this out of respect for 
the security concerns of the Russian Federation"?


To the contrary, I would claim that, whatever the circumstances, the 
Russian military attack on Ukraine, the threats and brutality towards 
deposing the elected Ukrainian government, the quasi-annexation of the 
eastern Ukrainian region (and of the Crimean peninsula, we should not 
forget) are illegitimate, and the misery, death and destruction that 
this war is bringing to people is unjustifiable and awful.


However, what concerns me more than such weird "shares of guilt" 
discussions is the question what a feminist and pacifist response or 
attitude can be in the current situation.


Best regards,

-a


Am 24.02.22 um 19:11 schrieb Mathias Fuchs:

Dear friends and neighbours,

with all shared emotions about the horrible things that happen in the 
Ukraine and with particular sympathies for the victims of Russia's 
invasion, might I still put up a thought for discussion?


I saw elderly ladies in the streets of Berlin today carrying signs 
saying "Fuck Putin". This is maybe understandable at a private level of 
anger, but it underanalysis what is going on there.


Putin is not an individual devil who wants to destroy a nation. The 
actions taking are in my view a reaction to international politics that 
are a well coordinated maneuvres of Russian Intelligence, Russian 
Business and Russian Military. Not Putin as a person.


The Capitalist West has expanded zones of monetary interest and of 
military influence towards the East since 1991. NATO countries are at 
the border of Russia. This is as if Russia would have installed missiles 
in Canada, Cuba, and Mexico. Do you remember the histeria when the 
Soviet Union set up missiles in Cuba?



I hope that this conflict will be solved without costs of life and the 
Ukrainian friends have my full sympathies, but we should not fool 
ourselves into "Putin did it". This is a much more complex issue and the 
NATO is not completely innocent of what is going on there.


Do you remember that NATO is short for "North Atlantic Treaty 
Organization"? Is the Ukraine on the North Atlantic? Why does NATO want 
to expand to control the entire continent? Could you consider to be a 
Russian citizen and be frightened by a military organisation trying to 
take over the whole of Europe?



Thanks for your thoughts

Mathias

__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre


__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[info]

I completely agree with Andreas.

To support Russia and the tyrant Putin of the Ukrainian genocide is 
equal to support Hitler or Stalin actions and massive murders.


Any doubt who is the real aggressor and criminal on this tragedy means 
siding with the murderers of the innocent Ukrainian people


NATO must intervene now to stop this bloody bath to help suffering 
Ukrainian population.


On behalf of Ukrainian citizens, I would like to ask for the 
#internationalSupport [1]:


We ask to lobby for a No-Fly Zone over #Ukraine [2]. This practice was 
used in Libya in 2011 when #NATO [3] suspended all flights over the 
country's territory. This measure should be introduced to protect 
Ukrainian civilians from Russian jets, drones, and missiles.


We ask to lobby for devastating sanctions on Russia, including a #SWIFT 
[4] cut-off, embargo on the import of Russian oil and gas, freezing of 
Russian state assets abroad, closing ports and airports for Russian 
ships and planes. To stop the war, the world needs to introduce 
sanctions with immediate effects. Every day of delay means the death of 
innocent people.


We ask to completely #block [5] Russian state media in your countries. 
They spread lies and poison your countrymen and countrywomen.
We ask you not to allow a naval blockade of Ukraine, since it will 
jeopardise not only the Ukrainian economy but also the food security of 
many countries.


We ask to condemn the aggression on all and any diplomatic platform, in 
any international organisation.


We ask for financial and humanitarian assistance, weapons, and equipment 
for Ukraine. For a list of organisations you can donate to click here.


For those who ask: "Why does Ukraine matter?"

This is why Ukraine matters.

It is the second largest country by area in Europe by area and has a 
population

of over 40 million - more than Poland.

Ukraine ranks:
1st in Europe in proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores;
2nd place in Europe and 10th place in the world in terms of titanium ore 
reserves;
2nd place in the world in terms of explored reserves of manganese ores 
(2.3 billion tons, or 12% of the world's reserves);

2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world (30 billion tons);
2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury ore reserves;
3rd place in Europe (13th place in the world) in shale gas reserves (22 
trillion cubic meters)

4th in the world by the total value of natural resources;
7th place in the world in coal reserves (33.9 billion tons)

Ukraine is an important agricultural country:

1st in Europe in terms of arable land area;
3rd place in the world by the area of black soil (25% of world's 
volume);

1st place in the world in exports of sunflower and sunflower oil;
2nd place in the world in barley production and 4th place in barley 
exports;

3rd largest producer and 4th largest exporter of corn in the world;
4th largest producer of potatoes in the world;
5th largest rye producer in the world;
5th place in the world in bee production (75,000 tons);
8th place in the world in wheat exports;
9th place in the world in the production of chicken eggs;
16th place in the world in cheese exports.

Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people.

Ukraine is an important industrialised country:

1st in Europe in ammonia production;
Europe's 2nd's and the world's 4th largest natural gas pipeline system;
3rd largest in Europe and 8th largest in the world in terms of installed 
capacity of nuclear power plants;
3rd place in Europe and 11th in the world in terms of rail network 
length (21,700 km);
3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of 
locators and locating equipment;

3rd largest iron exporter in the world
4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world;
4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers;
4th place in the world in clay exports
4th place in the world in titanium exports
8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates;
9th place in the world in exports of defence industry products;
10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons).

Ukraine matters. That is why its independence is important to the rest 
of the world.


Iury Lech
MADATAC Director /Transdisciplinar artist

El 2022-02-25 10:13, Andreas Broeckmann escribió:Dear Mathias,

I hesitate because this argument will change nothing, and more
knowledgeable people are making it more elegantly elsewhere, I hope.
But I want to shortly respond to your claim that "NATO is not
completely innocent of what is going on". From my point of view, this
is only true if you regard the Russian claims for its "security" as
legitimate and (I find it hard to imagine that you would condone this)
if you think that the specific current Russian "response" to the
"threat" posed by NATO is therefore in some way justifiable. (What
else, from an ethical point of view, could the phrase "not innocent"
mean?)

Do you believe that, in order not to become co-responsible for the
current 

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[info]

I completely agree with Andreas.

To support Russia and the tyrant Putin of the Ukrainian genocide is 
equal to support Hitler or Stalin actions and massive murders.


Any doubt who is the real aggressor and criminal on this tragedy means 
siding with the murderers of the innocent Ukrainian people


NATO must intervene now to stop this bloody bath to help suffering 
Ukrainian population.


On behalf of Ukrainian citizens, I would like to ask for the 
#internationalSupport [1]:


We ask to lobby for a No-Fly Zone over #Ukraine [2]. This practice was 
used in Libya in 2011 when #NATO [3] suspended all flights over the 
country's territory. This measure should be introduced to protect 
Ukrainian civilians from Russian jets, drones, and missiles.


We ask to lobby for devastating sanctions on Russia, including a #SWIFT 
[4] cut-off, embargo on the import of Russian oil and gas, freezing of 
Russian state assets abroad, closing ports and airports for Russian 
ships and planes. To stop the war, the world needs to introduce 
sanctions with immediate effects. Every day of delay means the death of 
innocent people.


We ask to completely #block [5] Russian state media in your countries. 
They spread lies and poison your countrymen and countrywomen.
We ask you not to allow a naval blockade of Ukraine, since it will 
jeopardise not only the Ukrainian economy but also the food security of 
many countries.


We ask to condemn the aggression on all and any diplomatic platform, in 
any international organisation.


We ask for financial and humanitarian assistance, weapons, and equipment 
for Ukraine. For a list of organisations you can donate to click here.


For those who ask: "Why does Ukraine matter?"

This is why Ukraine matters.

It is the second largest country by area in Europe by area and has a 
population

of over 40 million - more than Poland.

Ukraine ranks:
1st in Europe in proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores;
2nd place in Europe and 10th place in the world in terms of titanium ore 
reserves;
2nd place in the world in terms of explored reserves of manganese ores 
(2.3 billion tons, or 12% of the world's reserves);

2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world (30 billion tons);
2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury ore reserves;
3rd place in Europe (13th place in the world) in shale gas reserves (22 
trillion cubic meters)

4th in the world by the total value of natural resources;
7th place in the world in coal reserves (33.9 billion tons)

Ukraine is an important agricultural country:

1st in Europe in terms of arable land area;
3rd place in the world by the area of black soil (25% of world's 
volume);

1st place in the world in exports of sunflower and sunflower oil;
2nd place in the world in barley production and 4th place in barley 
exports;

3rd largest producer and 4th largest exporter of corn in the world;
4th largest producer of potatoes in the world;
5th largest rye producer in the world;
5th place in the world in bee production (75,000 tons);
8th place in the world in wheat exports;
9th place in the world in the production of chicken eggs;
16th place in the world in cheese exports.

Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people.

Ukraine is an important industrialised country:

1st in Europe in ammonia production;
Europe's 2nd's and the world's 4th largest natural gas pipeline system;
3rd largest in Europe and 8th largest in the world in terms of installed 
capacity of nuclear power plants;
3rd place in Europe and 11th in the world in terms of rail network 
length (21,700 km);
3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of 
locators and locating equipment;

3rd largest iron exporter in the world
4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world;
4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers;
4th place in the world in clay exports
4th place in the world in titanium exports
8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates;
9th place in the world in exports of defence industry products;
10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons).

Ukraine matters. That is why its independence is important to the rest 
of the world.


El 2022-02-25 10:13, Andreas Broeckmann escribió:


Dear Mathias,

I hesitate because this argument will change nothing, and more
knowledgeable people are making it more elegantly elsewhere, I hope.
But I want to shortly respond to your claim that "NATO is not
completely innocent of what is going on". From my point of view, this
is only true if you regard the Russian claims for its "security" as
legitimate and (I find it hard to imagine that you would condone this)
if you think that the specific current Russian "response" to the
"threat" posed by NATO is therefore in some way justifiable. (What
else, from an ethical point of view, could the phrase "not innocent"
mean?)

Do you believe that, in order not to become co-responsible for the
current situation (what you call "not innocent"), when the 

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Andreas Broeckmann]

Dear Mathias,

I hesitate because this argument will change nothing, and more 
knowledgeable people are making it more elegantly elsewhere, I hope. But 
I want to shortly respond to your claim that "NATO is not completely 
innocent of what is going on". From my point of view, this is only true 
if you regard the Russian claims for its "security" as legitimate and (I 
find it hard to imagine that you would condone this) if you think that 
the specific current Russian "response" to the "threat" posed by NATO is 
therefore in some way justifiable. (What else, from an ethical point of 
view, could the phrase "not innocent" mean?)


Do you believe that, in order not to become co-responsible for the 
current situation (what you call "not innocent"), when the Baltic 
countries requested membership in NATO around 2000, the Western alliance 
should have said, "no, sorry folks, we cannot do this out of respect for 
the security concerns of the Russian Federation"?


To the contrary, I would claim that, whatever the circumstances, the 
Russian military attack on Ukraine, the threats and brutality towards 
deposing the elected Ukrainian government, the quasi-annexation of the 
eastern Ukrainian region (and of the Crimean peninsula, we should not 
forget) are illegitimate, and the misery, death and destruction that 
this war is bringing to people is unjustifiable and awful.


However, what concerns me more than such weird "shares of guilt" 
discussions is the question what a feminist and pacifist response or 
attitude can be in the current situation.


Best regards,

-a


Am 24.02.22 um 19:11 schrieb Mathias Fuchs:

Dear friends and neighbours,

with all shared emotions about the horrible things that happen in the 
Ukraine and with particular sympathies for the victims of Russia's 
invasion, might I still put up a thought for discussion?


I saw elderly ladies in the streets of Berlin today carrying signs 
saying "Fuck Putin". This is maybe understandable at a private level of 
anger, but it underanalysis what is going on there.


Putin is not an individual devil who wants to destroy a nation. The 
actions taking are in my view a reaction to international politics that 
are a well coordinated maneuvres of Russian Intelligence, Russian 
Business and Russian Military. Not Putin as a person.


The Capitalist West has expanded zones of monetary interest and of 
military influence towards the East since 1991. NATO countries are at 
the border of Russia. This is as if Russia would have installed missiles 
in Canada, Cuba, and Mexico. Do you remember the histeria when the 
Soviet Union set up missiles in Cuba?



I hope that this conflict will be solved without costs of life and the 
Ukrainian friends have my full sympathies, but we should not fool 
ourselves into "Putin did it". This is a much more complex issue and the 
NATO is not completely innocent of what is going on there.


Do you remember that NATO is short for "North Atlantic Treaty 
Organization"? Is the Ukraine on the North Atlantic? Why does NATO want 
to expand to control the entire continent? Could you consider to be a 
Russian citizen and be frightened by a military organisation trying to 
take over the whole of Europe?



Thanks for your thoughts

Mathias

__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Mathias Fuchs]

Dear friends and neighbours,

with all shared emotions about the horrible things that happen in the 
Ukraine and with particular sympathies for the victims of Russia's 
invasion, might I still put up a thought for discussion?


I saw elderly ladies in the streets of Berlin today carrying signs 
saying "Fuck Putin". This is maybe understandable at a private level of 
anger, but it underanalysis what is going on there.


Putin is not an individual devil who wants to destroy a nation. The 
actions taking are in my view a reaction to international politics that 
are a well coordinated maneuvres of Russian Intelligence, Russian 
Business and Russian Military. Not Putin as a person.


The Capitalist West has expanded zones of monetary interest and of 
military influence towards the East since 1991. NATO countries are at 
the border of Russia. This is as if Russia would have installed missiles 
in Canada, Cuba, and Mexico. Do you remember the histeria when the 
Soviet Union set up missiles in Cuba?



I hope that this conflict will be solved without costs of life and the 
Ukrainian friends have my full sympathies, but we should not fool 
ourselves into "Putin did it". This is a much more complex issue and the 
NATO is not completely innocent of what is going on there.


Do you remember that NATO is short for "North Atlantic Treaty 
Organization"? Is the Ukraine on the North Atlantic? Why does NATO want 
to expand to control the entire continent? Could you consider to be a 
Russian citizen and be frightened by a military organisation trying to 
take over the whole of Europe?



Thanks for your thoughts

Mathias




On 24.02.22 11:41, Andreas Broeckmann wrote:

Dear friends,

after the build-up of the last days and weeks, this morning we woke up 
to a terrible new situation. The Russian attack on Ukraine is a 
catastrophe, for the people and the country of Ukraine, and thus for 
Europe, and I believe also for Russia. This war will not only bring 
futile and awful destruction, but it will also change many things, not 
only in the Ukrainian territories now under attack.


I'm writing to open up this space for debate. You may have other 
channels for such discussions elsewhere (... it has been more than 
twenty years ago that the Syndicate list, the precursor to Spectre, 
was an important channel for such discussions during the conflict in 
Kosovo and the NATO attacks on Serbia). But this list, with its legacy 
of reflecting the diversity and solidarity of artists and cultural 
practitioners in "Deep Europe" and beyond, is certainly available for 
exchange, analysis and coordination if required.


If there are people here on the list who can report about the 
situation in Ukraine, they may want to inform their international 
colleagues about what forms of help and solidarity might be useful.


And if there are people (especially in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc.) 
who would like to write anonymously, please, feel free to write to me 
and I will anonymise and forward any reasonable messages.


Andreas
__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre


--
Dr. habil. Mathias Fuchs
IFK Internationales Forschungszentrum Kulturwissenschaften
 Reichsratsstraße 17
 1010 Wien, Austria

Institute of Culture and Aesthetics of Digital Media (ICAM)
 Universitätsstr. 1
 21335 Lüneburg

Co-Editor Journal Digital Culture & Society
http://www.transcript-verlag.de/zeitschriften/digital-culture-und-society/


Residential Address: Kleistgasse 9, 1030 Wien, Austria
http://creativegames.org.uk/

__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[info]

Putin and Russian fascism will have to face trial for crimes against 
humanity,
but now what is needed is a strong European and International unity 
against
this brutal and unjustifiable agression to stop, once for ever, the 
criminal Putin.


El 2022-02-24 14:25, Eric Kluitenberg escribió:


Yes thank you so much Andreas,

I think we all need a bit of time to digest this- what happens here is
not just something with unprecedented  geopolitical implications, but
also runs right through (Ukranian / Russian) families.

An unspeakable tragedy…

Deeply concerned,

Eric

On 24 Feb 2022, at 11:42, Andreas Broeckmann  
wrote:


Dear friends,

after the build-up of the last days and weeks, this morning we woke up 
to a terrible new situation. The Russian attack on Ukraine is a 
catastrophe, for the people and the country of Ukraine, and thus for 
Europe, and I believe also for Russia. This war will not only bring 
futile and awful destruction, but it will also change many things, not 
only in the Ukrainian territories now under attack.


I'm writing to open up this space for debate. You may have other 
channels for such discussions elsewhere (... it has been more than 
twenty years ago that the Syndicate list, the precursor to Spectre, 
was an important channel for such discussions during the conflict in 
Kosovo and the NATO attacks on Serbia). But this list, with its legacy 
of reflecting the diversity and solidarity of artists and cultural 
practitioners in "Deep Europe" and beyond, is certainly available for 
exchange, analysis and coordination if required.


If there are people here on the list who can report about the 
situation in Ukraine, they may want to inform their international 
colleagues about what forms of help and solidarity might be useful.


And if there are people (especially in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc.) 
who would like to write anonymously, please, feel free to write to me 
and I will anonymise and forward any reasonable messages.


Andreas
__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre


__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

Re: [spectre] a terrible day

[Eric Kluitenberg]

Yes thank you so much Andreas,

I think we all need a bit of time to digest this- what happens here is not just 
something with unprecedented  geopolitical implications, but also runs right 
through (Ukranian / Russian) families.

An unspeakable tragedy…

Deeply concerned,

Eric

> On 24 Feb 2022, at 11:42, Andreas Broeckmann  wrote:
> 
> Dear friends,
> 
> after the build-up of the last days and weeks, this morning we woke up to a 
> terrible new situation. The Russian attack on Ukraine is a catastrophe, for 
> the people and the country of Ukraine, and thus for Europe, and I believe 
> also for Russia. This war will not only bring futile and awful destruction, 
> but it will also change many things, not only in the Ukrainian territories 
> now under attack.
> 
> I'm writing to open up this space for debate. You may have other channels for 
> such discussions elsewhere (... it has been more than twenty years ago that 
> the Syndicate list, the precursor to Spectre, was an important channel for 
> such discussions during the conflict in Kosovo and the NATO attacks on 
> Serbia). But this list, with its legacy of reflecting the diversity and 
> solidarity of artists and cultural practitioners in "Deep Europe" and beyond, 
> is certainly available for exchange, analysis and coordination if required.
> 
> If there are people here on the list who can report about the situation in 
> Ukraine, they may want to inform their international colleagues about what 
> forms of help and solidarity might be useful.
> 
> And if there are people (especially in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc.) who 
> would like to write anonymously, please, feel free to write to me and I will 
> anonymise and forward any reasonable messages.
> 
> Andreas
> __
> SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
> Info, archive and help:
> http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre

__
SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.in-mind.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/spectre