NFPA - Patterns of Firefighter Fireground Injuries, May 2009
"Patterns of Structure Fires by Occupancy and Structure Status"
"In 2003-2006 fires in residential structures accounted for about eight out
of ten
firefighter fireground injuries in structures (Table 11). This was in large
part due to t
Yes for room design method, not so clear for Area Density. The biggest
issue I see with room design is everyone seems to forget the 'communicating
spaces"
Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926
-
Thanks Dave,
Just got in, out teaching a NJ DCA seminar on Wiring Methods for fire pumps,
emergency and standby power systems.
Dewayne wrote; "We have a growing trend up here in which contractors are not
installing sprinklers in combustible floor spaces (open wood truss) simply
because there is a
bscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org
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You are neglecting to consider the fire department connection. Pressure may
go below sprinkler requirements when FD uses a hydrant but the fire truck
fixes pressure problems or at least should. At least here in the States
most (but not all systems) provided much more than necessary in GPM if not
Hi All,
I would appreciate if someone explain for me Fire Hydrant & Sprinkler System
Water Supply.
I know that hydrants are for delivering water for professional fire fighting
for fire department at 20 psi residual pressure.
Can fire hydrants installed in same main as the Fire sprinklers? If yes,
How about 2002 nfpa 13 section 15.1.3
On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Chris Cahill wrote:
> Having a problem finding the section that calls for a minimum size of UG.
> Actually can't find the AG piping limits either thinking they might be
> together.
>
___
Craig,
You've missed my point completely.
There are times when the 3,000 sq ft minimum from IFC would kick in.
The point WAS ... NFPA 13 AND the IFC work together to allow differing
densities in different areas, but sometimes the minimum remote area may be
larger than that specified in N
Cecil,
Connecting the IFC and NFPA 13 dots is not always easy. Many design
professionals and code officials use Section 2704.2.2.3 to reduce the
design area because all H occupancies are prescribed by the IBC to have
a minimum one-hour fire barrier separating the Group H use from any
other mixed o
So let's look at this logic stream.
If you had a 500 sf indoor storage area at say .30/3000sf adjacent to a 10,000
sf office space .10/1500sf, different occupancies separated by appropriate
rated assemblies, storage area constructed per code, would you extend the
.30/3000 into 2500 sq. ft of th
Hi Scott,
What a great reference for future use! I can see where the 3,000 sq ft minimum
could apply, but I don't really see how the IFC allows the reduction of the
design to the room only (not that I thought it should). Based on the language
of 2704.5 which reads (and I realize you already
Steve,
That helps thanks. Table 9.3.5.3.2 (a) & (b) aren't the problem. This is
4" Sch 10 which is allowed to have 828 lbs applied at 40' centers. If we
can have what you and Scott are describing done then, I can eliminate a lot
of braces and more than likely, haven't calced it yet, space my lat
nd an email
to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
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Scott,
Thanks for the advice. I did basically what you have suggested, but as far
as the suggestion about "a proposal to install a steel flat or angle
converting the point load into a spread load", could you elaborate more on
this? I don't know if I follow what you are saying.
Thanks,
Bob
Chris,
2007 13 Starts at Section 23.1.3.
Jim Johnston, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Inland Fire Protection, Inc
1100 Ahtanum Road
Yakima, WA 98903
Phone 509-248-4471
Fax 509-248-1180
j...@inlandfireprotection.com
-Original Message-
From: Chris Cahill [mailto:chr...@sentryfiremn.com]
S
Hello Chris,
I have had approved and used 2" Blazemaster for 13R in the past. Not sure
it it was allowed outside the standard tho
Tuesday, June 2, 2009, 12:42:15 PM, you wrote:
> Having a problem finding the section that calls for a minimum size of UG.
> Actually can't find the AG piping lim
NFPA 24, 2007, Chapter 13.
Nothing smaller than 6" for UG when supplying hydrants.
Chapter 13 Sizes of Aboveground and Buried Pipe
13.1 Private Service Mains. Pipe smaller than 6 in. (152 mm)
in diameter shall not be installed as a private service main
supplying hydrants.
13.2 Mains Not Supp
Having a problem finding the section that calls for a minimum size of UG.
Actually can't find the AG piping limits either thinking they might be
together.
For some reason I think UG is 6". But allowed less if calc'ed? So is there
a minimum size in 13 (or 24)? Yes I know water purveyors mig
Am I reading it wrong or doesn't 2007 of NFPA 13, 11.2.3.3 have wording to that
effect?
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
crai
Ah and there's the rub. We don't know about packaging of the Ox or if it's in
tanks or drums or ??, we don't know about separations, containment, adjacent
occupancies, if quantities are above or below the allowable limits, what the
process is or how the Ox is handled, just to name a few missing
Your analysis is correct about the basic hazards of oxidizers. However,
your statement regarding an external exposure fire is incorrect - most
of the incidents have resulted from contamination of the oxidizer and
the heat of reaction results in ignition of the packaging. When that
occurs one has an
Oxidizers enhance the burning characteristics of combustibles. They are not
flammable or combustible products in and of themselves.
So a fire within an oxidizer storage area would have to originate elsewhere
from some other object. However if there were a fire for instance a fork truck
caug
Forum,
I apologize for my faux pas in representing that GSA does not accept
flexible sprinkler fittings. I don't set policy for GSA and I certainly
did not mean to speak for GSA or any of the fire protection engineers of
any of GSA's regions. The mistake is mine and I wish to retract the
statemen
Thom,
First, thanks for being a supporter of the Sprinkler Academy!! We are gonna
impact the industry thanks to folks like you.
Second, the Committee did discuss what an appropriate separation is. They
stated: "physically separated by a barrier or partition capable of delaying
heat from a fi
Guess there's no storage in the building?
glc
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
m...@markeckard.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 11:33 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re:
Chapte
Just to clarify a statement made by Mr. Bilbo, IFC Section 2704.2.2.3
and 2704.5 allow the design area to be reduced to the area of room,
assuming it is classified as a Group H occupancy. The reasoning is that
if the room has a Hazardous occupancy classification, fire resistive
separation is requir
I would love to see NFPA 13 say somewhere that design areas can stop at a
rated wall assembly of equal or greater rating than the required water
supply for the hazard, when all doors in that assembly are also rated,
equipped with automatic closers and there are no unprotected openings.
Anyone want
Chapter 1- 6 of latest edition of pamphlet 13 NFPA
Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel
-Original Message-
From:
Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:11:28
To:
Subject: RE:
What edition of NFPA 13 did they specify?
Antique, engraved in stone tablets?
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Todd,
Once again, Roland is on the money here. While Scott is so very right to be
cautious, I do not believe the ICC documents deal with separation issues when
determining the size of the remote area (it's a 13 thing). I do believe the
ICC documents are clear about separation requirements be
Maybe they are using The Code of Hammurabi.
David Autry
Plans Examiner
Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office
246 S. 14th Street
Lincoln, NE 68508
402-471-9659
402-471-3118 fax
www.sfm.ne.gov
** Note new email address: david.au...@nebraska.gov
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-bou
Correction of past mistakes is not the issue, since that just doesn't seem
to ever happen to others. What is important is that once made aware that the
code requires these spaces to be protected, then from that point on at least
you'll know that the other contractors will be paying to play on a mor
What edition of NFPA 13 did they specify?
Antique, engraved in stone tablets?
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@c
Not a jurisdiction. Just another wonderful A & E firm recycling antique
specifications and practicing
"engineering" outside of their expertise.
Sincerely,
Mark E. Eckard S.E.T.
Cintas Corporation/Cintas Fire Protection
12771 Westlinks Blvd. Suite - 1 & 2
Fort Myers, Florida 33913
There are a lot of issues here which have not been defined. Without that
information a proper hazards and codes analysis can't be performed and we are
all just offering limited opinions.
But it is common and acceptable to every AHJ and Underwriter I've dealt with to
only require the increased
1961 NBFU has 6 "Sections"
David Autry
Plans Examiner
Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office
246 S. 14th Street
Lincoln, NE 68508
402-471-9659
402-471-3118 fax
www.sfm.ne.gov
** Note new email address: david.au...@nebraska.gov
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler
1969 13 had 7 shapters
1955 (NBFU) had 13 sections
Don
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf
Of Eckard, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 9:21 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject:
Can any
The fire protection design for oxidizers and many hazardous materials is
dependant on the proper classification of the hazardous material. You've
already asked about a deviation to NFPA 430 but it's unclear if the room
is separated to allow one to reduce the design area, which is allowed by
the IFC
What jurisdiction is still using that edition?
At 10:21 AM 6/2/2009, you wrote:
>Can anyone tell me the last year NFPA 13 only had 6 chapters.
>
>
>Mark E. Eckard S.E.T.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>This e-mail transmission contains information that is intended to be
>confidential and privileged. If you rece
I just happened to be looking at a 1978 edition and it has eight, so
before then.
On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:21 AM, Eckard, Mark wrote:
> Can anyone tell me the last year NFPA 13 only had 6 chapters.
>
>
> Mark E. Eckard S.E.T.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This e-mail transmission contains information that is i
Unless you have rated construction allowing the room design, there is
no basis for just doing the room.
12.3 is for regular size remote areas and deals simply with the
boundary between them. A.12.3 deals with small areas of higher
hazard in a lower hazard facility. This actually originated
Can anyone tell me the last year NFPA 13 only had 6 chapters.
Mark E. Eckard S.E.T.
This e-mail transmission contains information that is intended to be
confidential and privileged. If you receive this e-mail and you are not a
named addressee you are hereby notified that you are no
I know very little of the details of this project. A client called me
to ask how many heads should he figure in a 15x30 room with Class 2
oxidizers stored 5 ft high. The AHJ was the one who said Class 2.
That is all I know. My guess is that he has a paper with some boxes
on it (aka The Plan) an
12.3 has always bugged me a bit. The charging paragraph say do the
following. (1) is the 15' beyond when no barrier exists. (2) says ignore
(1) when there is a barrier that is capable of preventing heat from a
fire.
But (2) doesn't say what to do when the barrier is present. Just you don't
Is the room separated from the remainder of the building by
fire-resistive construction? If it is, then your design area need only
be the 450 square foot area. If it is not separated, then you need to
calculate the design area in accordance with NFPA 430.
While not explicitly stated, reducing desi
Todd, section 21.1.1.1 (07) says (sorta) that the requirements of chapter 12
apply. Sections 12.3 and A.12.3 indicate your design area could be reduced
to 1500 sf (or less) with a potentially lower density outside the oxidizer
room.
Ed Kramer
> -Original Message-
> From: sprinklerforum-
This was generated by a call from a contractor. Chances are this is a
design-build deal and nobody but you and I know that 430 exists.
At 08:28 AM 6/2/2009, you wrote:
>If the space is only 450 sf, calculate just the room at the
>.20. There's no point or requirement to calculate an entire 3750
Have you thought about a line on your proposal? Give base price without,
then a line like.. "This project appears to have a combustible concealed
space that may require protection. IF protection is required in this space,
ADD .$$ THEN, I like big notes on drawings going to the AHJ's in
question
If the space is only 450 sf, calculate just the room at the .20. There's no
point or requirement to calculate an entire 3750 sq. ft. area if the adjacent
areas do not require the same density based on their hazard and this space is
provided with secondary containment.
Although not your issue
I had one AHJ tell me 'I don't know what I was thinking when I approved that'
At 07:35 AM 6/2/2009, you wrote:
>David,
>You are correct that the ceiling-floor assembly has a 1hr rated UL
>listing not the way I had originally stated it, sorry for the
>miscommunication.
>Either way, it appears th
David,
You are correct that the ceiling-floor assembly has a 1hr rated UL listing not
the way I had originally stated it, sorry for the miscommunication.
Either way, it appears that my original thought was correct and that sprinklers
are needed. I have been trying to convince my superiors that
I have a 450 sqft room used for storing Class 2 oxidizers to 5 ft
high. NFPA 13 (2002) section 13.27 calls for a density of .20/3750.
Do I need to calculate the full 3750, even though 88% of the area is
not the hazard? In a more standard occupancy, the small room rule
could be applied, provided
Like in NY state at the group home recently, 4 dead, 1 yr old bldg. Attic,
not underfloor, but omission by incorrect standard selection, 13d not 13
with non-ambulatory residents.
glc
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firespri
I'd agree that a quick phone call to the AHJ will determine if a mountain is
to be made of this molehill. 154 PSI flat curve cures a lot of ills.
glc
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
ddevr...@f
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