RE: fire pump controller detection requirement
Tim, First I am working under the IFC 2012 that requires sprinkler systems to be electronically monitored with supervising central station. Per Section NFPA 72, 2010 10.15 and the definitions of a Fire Alarm Control Unit and Dedicated Function Fire Alarm Control Unit, a smoke detector is required to be located above the fire pump control panel. Daniel S. Failla Jr. Assistant Fire Marshal Charleston Fire Marshal's Office 75 Calhoun Street 3rd Floor Charleston, SC 29401 Office - 843 - 724 - 5960 Email: fail...@charleston-sc.gov -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Easter, Timothy Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 11:35 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: fire pump controller detection requirement I know smoke detectors are required within 5' of FACP/MNS panels, what about fire pump controller panels? Regards, Timothy Easter E.I.T. Graduate Fire Protection Engineer URS Corporation ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: fire pump controller detection requirement
So, if it does not have a secondary power source it would not be a Dedicated Function Fire Alarm Control Unit? I don't believe the committee had a fire pump controller in mind when this change was made. I never have thought of a fire pump controller as a component of a fire alarm system, but I'm willing to be educated. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Failla, Daniel Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 2:52 PM To: 'sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: fire pump controller detection requirement Tim, First I am working under the IFC 2012 that requires sprinkler systems to be electronically monitored with supervising central station. Per Section NFPA 72, 2010 10.15 and the definitions of a Fire Alarm Control Unit and Dedicated Function Fire Alarm Control Unit, a smoke detector is required to be located above the fire pump control panel. Daniel S. Failla Jr. Assistant Fire Marshal Charleston Fire Marshal's Office 75 Calhoun Street 3rd Floor Charleston, SC 29401 Office - 843 - 724 - 5960 Email: fail...@charleston-sc.gov -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Easter, Timothy Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 11:35 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: fire pump controller detection requirement I know smoke detectors are required within 5' of FACP/MNS panels, what about fire pump controller panels? Regards, Timothy Easter E.I.T. Graduate Fire Protection Engineer URS Corporation ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Fire Pump Controller
The fire pump controller can't be used as a junction box for other services. Not sure where to find it. Ask the controller mfg. Arthur Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection Design Tiroly and Associates 3300 King Ave Cleveland, OH 44114 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Burtell Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Fire Pump Controller I just had a job site meeting with a electrical contractor. He stated the engineer wanted to feed the jockey pump controller from the fire pump controller. Something about a tapping rule or exception. I cautioned against it, told him to research it first. Can anyone give me a section that prohibits this arrangement from either NFPA 20 or NEC? Best regards, Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS Burtell Fire Protection, Inc. Phone: 406.652.7697 Fax: 406.652.7743 Cell: 406.861.4507 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com ? please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Fire Pump Controller
NFPA 20 (1999, Edition) 7-3.4.4 A fire pump controller shall not be used as a junction box to supply other equipment. Electrical supply conductors for pressure maintenance (jockey or make-up) pump(s) shall not be connected to the fire pump controller. David Autry Plans Examiner Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office 246 S. 14th Street Lincoln, NE 68508 402-471-9659 402-471-3118 fax www.sfm.ne.gov ** Note new email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Burtell Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Fire Pump Controller I just had a job site meeting with a electrical contractor. He stated the engineer wanted to feed the jockey pump controller from the fire pump controller. Something about a tapping rule or exception. I cautioned against it, told him to research it first. Can anyone give me a section that prohibits this arrangement from either NFPA 20 or NEC? Best regards, Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS Burtell Fire Protection, Inc. Phone: 406.652.7697 Fax: 406.652.7743 Cell: 406.861.4507 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Fire Pump Controller
Joe, Try this: NFPA 70, 2005 edition, 695.6 (F) Junction Points. Where wire connectors are used in the fire pump circuit, the connectors shall be listed. A fire pump controller or fire pump power transfer switch, where provided, shall not be used as a junction box to supply other equipment, including a pressure maintenance (jockey) pump. Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (FAX) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Burtell Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Fire Pump Controller I just had a job site meeting with a electrical contractor. He stated the engineer wanted to feed the jockey pump controller from the fire pump controller. Something about a tapping rule or exception. I cautioned against it, told him to research it first. Can anyone give me a section that prohibits this arrangement from either NFPA 20 or NEC? Best regards, Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS Burtell Fire Protection, Inc. Phone: 406.652.7697 Fax: 406.652.7743 Cell: 406.861.4507 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Fire Pump Controller
It is stated in the NEC, Article 695.6 (F) (F) Junction Points. Where wire connectors are used in the fire pump circuit, the connectors shall be listed. A fire pump controller or fire pump power transfer switch, where provided, shall not be used as a junction box to supply other equipment, including a pressure maintenance (jockey) pump(s). A fire pump controller and fire pump power transfer switch, where provided, shall not serve any load other than the fire pump for which it is intended. Each controller is only for the pump it is designed to control/power. Can't feed one from another, you need separate circuits. So can't do as the engineer wants. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Burtell Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Fire Pump Controller I just had a job site meeting with a electrical contractor. He stated the engineer wanted to feed the jockey pump controller from the fire pump controller. Something about a tapping rule or exception. I cautioned against it, told him to research it first. Can anyone give me a section that prohibits this arrangement from either NFPA 20 or NEC? Best regards, Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS Burtell Fire Protection, Inc. Phone: 406.652.7697 Fax: 406.652.7743 Cell: 406.861.4507 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com P please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Fire Pump Controller
I'm not sure that you can apply the NEC without invoking the debate about whether a pressure maintenance pump is a fire pump for purposes of applying and enforcing the electrical code.If you accept that it is, then the following applies from 70 (I took this from the 2006 Fall Revision Cycle so the section numbers might be a bit screwed up): 695.4 Continuity of Power. Circuits that supply electric motor-driven fire pumps shall be supervised from inadvertent disconnection as covered in 695.4(A) or 695.4(B). (A) Direct Connection. The supply conductors shall directly connect the power source to either a listed fire pump controller or listed combination fire pump controller and power transfer switch. [NFPA 20:9.3.2.2.2] (B) Supervised Connection. A single disconnecting means and associated overcurrent protective device(s) shall be permitted to be installed between a remote power source and one of the following: (1) A listed fire pump controller (2) A listed fire pump power transfer switch (3) A listed combination fire pump controller and power transfer switch For systems installed under the provisions of 695.3(B)(2) only, such additional disconnecting means and associated overcurrent protective device(s) shall be permitted as required to comply with other provisions of this Code. Overcurrent protective devices between an on-site standby generator and a fire pump controller shall be selected and sized according to 430.62 to provide short-circuit protection only. All disconnecting devices and overcurrent protective devices that are unique to the fire pump loads shall comply with 695.4(B)(1) through (B)(5). (1) Overcurrent Device Selection. The overcurrent protective device(s) shall be selected or set to carry indefinitely the sum of the locked-rotor current of the fire pump motor(s) and the pressure maintenance pump motor(s) and the full-load current of the associated fire pump accessory equipment when connected to this power supply. The requirement to carry the locked-rotor currents indefinitely shall not apply to conductors or devices other than overcurrent devices in the fire pump motor circuit(s). (2) Disconnecting Means. The disconnecting means shall comply with all of the following: (1) Be identified as suitable for use as service equipment (2) Be lockable in the closed position (3) Not be located within equipment that feeds loads other than the fire pump (4) Be located sufficiently remote from other building or other fire pump source disconnecting means such that inadvertent contemporaneous operation would be unlikely Note in (A) that supply shall be directly connected to the fire pump and that under Disconnecting Means, (3) says that the disconnect shall not arranged in other equipment.Not sure how/why they would want to do it combined anyway - the savings are nil and the complications potentially very expensive and intrusive. Steve Leyton Protection Design Consulting San Diego, CA Please note: Our offices will be closed from 12/29/08 to 1/02/09, returning 1/05/09. PDC wishes you a happy holiday season! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Burtell Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 8:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Fire Pump Controller I just had a job site meeting with a electrical contractor. He stated the engineer wanted to feed the jockey pump controller from the fire pump controller. Something about a tapping rule or exception. I cautioned against it, told him to research it first. Can anyone give me a section that prohibits this arrangement from either NFPA 20 or NEC? Best regards, Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS Burtell Fire Protection, Inc. Phone: 406.652.7697 Fax: 406.652.7743 Cell: 406.861.4507 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3672 (20081208) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3672 (20081208) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Fire Pump Controller
Joe, Although NEC 695 does not cover (695.1(B)) jockey pumps they are permitted to be connected to the fire pump feeder. There are however requirements for tapping the fire pump feeder. The tap however cannot be taken within the fire pump controller. The primary overcurrent and feeders shall consider the sum of the locked rotor currents of the fire pump, jockey pump and and full load currents of the associated controllers. 695.3(A) 695.5(B) 695.6(C)(1) If you have the 2005 NEC handbook close by take a look at page 1047, Exhibit 695.5. John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official Electrical Inspector Red Bank, NJ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Burtell Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:44 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Fire Pump Controller I just had a job site meeting with a electrical contractor. He stated the engineer wanted to feed the jockey pump controller from the fire pump controller. Something about a tapping rule or exception. I cautioned against it, told him to research it first. Can anyone give me a section that prohibits this arrangement from either NFPA 20 or NEC? Best regards, Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS Burtell Fire Protection, Inc. Phone: 406.652.7697 Fax: 406.652.7743 Cell: 406.861.4507 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Site: http://www.burtellfire.com P please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Fire Pump Controller Mounting Requirements
If you have a concrete wall why wouldn't you just mount uni-strut to the wall, and the controller to the strut? Thom McMahon Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 - Original Message - From: Mark Gouveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 7:46 AM Subject: Fire Pump Controller Mounting Requirements I have a project where the electrician has pointed out an NEC code section that requires the controller to be mounted on a non-combustible supporting structure. I can not remember a location where I have seen a controller mounted on a OSB/Plywood sheathed wall. I was thinking that this in general should be a non-issue since the fire pump is to be located in a 1-hour rated room. However suppose you had a concrete room and mounted a 4x8 sheet of plywood to the wall to support the controllers. Is this wrong? I have calls into the electrical engineer and the pump supplier, however I am curious what the forum has seen. NFPA 70 - National Electrical Code (2005 Edition) ARTICLE 695 Fire Pumps 695.12 Equipment Location. ... (F) Mounting. All fire pump control equipment shall be mounted in a substantial manner on *noncombustible* supporting structures. Thanks, Mark Gouveia Sprinkler Technology Design ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
Re: Fire Pump Controller Mounting Requirements
They are furing our the concrete walls with studs, insulation, and sheathing. We are making them install a non-combustible sheathing at this time to keep the project going. Based on Mr. Kaczor's input from the NEC Handbook, the intent is to * prohibit* a plywood backboard behind the controllers. Thanks for your help. On 2/26/07, Thom McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you have a concrete wall why wouldn't you just mount uni-strut to the wall, and the controller to the strut? Thom McMahon Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 - Original Message - From: Mark Gouveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 7:46 AM Subject: Fire Pump Controller Mounting Requirements ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
