RE: calc procedure logic
...epilogue... The next time a similar situation comes up I will weigh Options A B: Option A, step 1- start with a listed head with listed RTI and listed Temp rating. step 2- remove RTI, Temp Rating, chance of accidental fusing, and chance of not fusing when it should. step 3- spend a year and a hundred grand getting it listed in this unusual condition. We would measure the pattern at various pressures playing like there used to be operating parts, then re-test playing like there never were, then once more with our backs to the pattern, using a mirror. Option B, step 1- ask the manufacturer if she/he would stand behind the head in the above condition, as elementary as it has become. step 2- if yes to step 1, ask if they have ever flowed water through the head at 28 ft/sec and measured the pattern, and if not will they please and let me know, speaking very slowly. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: calc procedure logic
Ask them if they flowed it at a specified pressure instead of velocity and you will avoid glazed eyes. Speak their language And no, outside its listing they likely won't stand behind it because there is nothing to stand on. Sent from my iPhone On May 24, 2013, at 8:52 AM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote: ...epilogue... The next time a similar situation comes up I will weigh Options A B: Option A, step 1- start with a listed head with listed RTI and listed Temp rating. step 2- remove RTI, Temp Rating, chance of accidental fusing, and chance of not fusing when it should. step 3- spend a year and a hundred grand getting it listed in this unusual condition. We would measure the pattern at various pressures playing like there used to be operating parts, then re-test playing like there never were, then once more with our backs to the pattern, using a mirror. Option B, step 1- ask the manufacturer if she/he would stand behind the head in the above condition, as elementary as it has become. step 2- if yes to step 1, ask if they have ever flowed water through the head at 28 ft/sec and measured the pattern, and if not will they please and let me know, speaking very slowly. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: calc procedure logic
Brad, I can tell you from personal experience that pressure and pattern are not closely linked for most standard sprinklers. At the listed operating pressure, the sprinkler achieves the pattern for the listed/required area. Increasing the pressure, as Q=K*Sq Rt P states, will increase the delivered density, but has virtually no effect on the pattern/area. This holds true as you continue to increase P until you reach pressures in the 175 to 200 psi, at which point and above, the deflector starts to atomize the water into a mist, and converting more of the energy in the velocity into heat. The resulting very small droplet size actually begins to truncate the pattern. This is true for all external deflector sprinklers and nozzles, and some internal scroll nozzles. I think in your effort to combine the mathematics and physics of sprinklers, you're overlooking the function and limitations of the deflector. IMHO. Mark at Aero - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 12:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic ...epilogue... The next time a similar situation comes up I will weigh Options A B: Option A, step 1- start with a listed head with listed RTI and listed Temp rating. step 2- remove RTI, Temp Rating, chance of accidental fusing, and chance of not fusing when it should. step 3- spend a year and a hundred grand getting it listed in this unusual condition. We would measure the pattern at various pressures playing like there used to be operating parts, then re-test playing like there never were, then once more with our backs to the pattern, using a mirror. Option B, step 1- ask the manufacturer if she/he would stand behind the head in the above condition, as elementary as it has become. step 2- if yes to step 1, ask if they have ever flowed water through the head at 28 ft/sec and measured the pattern, and if not will they please and let me know, speaking very slowly. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: calc procedure logic
Thanks Bruce, Ron, Steve, off-Forum dude, everyone else again, and anyone I forgot. Brad -Original Message- From: Ron Greenman [mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 4:38 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic It doesn't matter what kind of math you do. You can't cipher your way out of this one. Sixth grade graduate and all not withstanding. The book says 7 psi. The baseline protocols for all standard spray heads are predicated on 7 psi. Want something else then develop a head. Convince UL that a new protocol is in order. Prove that the protocol is equivalent in performance to the old protocol. Test, test , test. Get listed under new protocol. Voila! Yo now have a special application head, not an SS, that requires a different, specific and listed design criterion. Thank Cecil for poking the old bear. End of story. - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 01:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: calc procedure logic
Steve, You have been in San Diego for a long time? Did you know Don McClure at Sentential Fire protection? I was just wondering how is doing these days. Thanks, John Lewis From: Steve Leyton st...@protectiondesign.com To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 7:53 PM Subject: RE: calc procedure logic Chris forgot to ask where babies come from. The answer - as I understand it - to the 52,000 sq. ft. question is ... mildly amusing. SL -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org on behalf of George Church Sent: Tue 5/21/2013 1:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Add some dried sludge and age 20 years. Mark, did u see the clogged drops on a DIPreAction sys up your way? I realize we need to maintain and cure bad ones with testing, but reality testing should include aging and normal degradation of system. Sent from my iPhone On May 21, 2013, at 4:28 PM, Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com wrote: You are confusing velocity with vector. Same head at 50 psi doesn't go much farther. Go grab a head and take a match to it. The link surely clears. The cap if upright stays. If pendant gravity takes care of it. Then you can see how little it takes to clear the cap. Why 7 psi? Why 52,000 sq.ft.? Why 1-12 The list is far too long. Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:54 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic Thanks John. Assuming that is true, we could say a 1/2 head at 7 psi throws 7'-6 each way. At 7 psi the water hits the deflector going 32.26 ft/sec. v=SQRT(2gh). At 6 psi it would be going 29.87 ft/sec, and would throw 6'-11 each way. -Original Message- From: John O'Connor [mailto:jocon...@nfspk.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:37 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic The 7.0 PSI end head minimum pressure was never intended to kick out the links, seat etc, but to develop the minimum spray pattern required to deliver the specified density. John O'Connor National Fire Sprinklers, Inc. Nashville TN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Wouldn't it depend on the application rate, area of protection and orifice size? Mark at Aero - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 01:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3162/5841 - Release Date: 05/20/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
calc procedure logic
Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: calc procedure logic
Doesn't the 7 psi also have to do with minimum pressures to develop spray patterns properly? If so, you would still need the 7 psi minimum. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC Sent from my iPhone On May 21, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote: Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: calc procedure logic
makes sense, thanks Travis -Original Message- From: Travis Mack [mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:06 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Doesn't the 7 psi also have to do with minimum pressures to develop spray patterns properly? If so, you would still need the 7 psi minimum. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC Sent from my iPhone On May 21, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote: Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: calc procedure logic
Wouldn't it depend on the application rate, area of protection and orifice size? Mark at Aero - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 01:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: calc procedure logic
The 7.0 PSI end head minimum pressure was never intended to kick out the links, seat etc, but to develop the minimum spray pattern required to deliver the specified density. John O'Connor National Fire Sprinklers, Inc. Nashville TN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Wouldn't it depend on the application rate, area of protection and orifice size? Mark at Aero - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 01:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3162/5841 - Release Date: 05/20/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: calc procedure logic
For example foam/water deluge .16/entire area, heads 9x9=81, times .16=12.96 gpm/head, throwing 4'-6 each way. The requirement to balance the flows within 15% of each other is physical (we want a fairly uniform blanket on the floor), but the 7 psi min is not physical, unless 5.48 psi will not throw 4'-6. Thanks Mark. -Original Message- From: mphe...@aerofire.com [mailto:mphe...@aerofire.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Wouldn't it depend on the application rate, area of protection and orifice size? Mark at Aero - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 01:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: calc procedure logic
My recollection of the 7 psi min ehp was to make sure the cap was removed and an acceptable pattern developed. Thought it took 5 psi to clear the waterway so 7 became the min, maybe for pattern, maybe buffer. Mark, that's a Min ehp. With today's hi perf heads we often need lots more, determined also as you illustrated. Glc Sent from my iPhone On May 21, 2013, at 9:42 AM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote: For example foam/water deluge .16/entire area, heads 9x9=81, times .16=12.96 gpm/head, throwing 4'-6 each way. The requirement to balance the flows within 15% of each other is physical (we want a fairly uniform blanket on the floor), but the 7 psi min is not physical, unless 5.48 psi will not throw 4'-6. Thanks Mark. -Original Message- From: mphe...@aerofire.com [mailto:mphe...@aerofire.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Wouldn't it depend on the application rate, area of protection and orifice size? Mark at Aero - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 01:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: calc procedure logic
Thanks John. Assuming that is true, we could say a 1/2 head at 7 psi throws 7'-6 each way. At 7 psi the water hits the deflector going 32.26 ft/sec. v=SQRT(2gh). At 6 psi it would be going 29.87 ft/sec, and would throw 6'-11 each way. -Original Message- From: John O'Connor [mailto:jocon...@nfspk.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:37 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic The 7.0 PSI end head minimum pressure was never intended to kick out the links, seat etc, but to develop the minimum spray pattern required to deliver the specified density. John O'Connor National Fire Sprinklers, Inc. Nashville TN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Wouldn't it depend on the application rate, area of protection and orifice size? Mark at Aero - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 01:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3162/5841 - Release Date: 05/20/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: calc procedure logic
Except that you are designing outside the standard. Can't recall ever even thinking of approaching an AHJ with 6 psi instead of 7. Sent from my iPhone On May 21, 2013, at 9:58 AM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote: Thanks John. Assuming that is true, we could say a 1/2 head at 7 psi throws 7'-6 each way. At 7 psi the water hits the deflector going 32.26 ft/sec. v=SQRT(2gh). At 6 psi it would be going 29.87 ft/sec, and would throw 6'-11 each way. -Original Message- From: John O'Connor [mailto:jocon...@nfspk.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:37 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic The 7.0 PSI end head minimum pressure was never intended to kick out the links, seat etc, but to develop the minimum spray pattern required to deliver the specified density. John O'Connor National Fire Sprinklers, Inc. Nashville TN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Wouldn't it depend on the application rate, area of protection and orifice size? Mark at Aero - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 01:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3162/5841 - Release Date: 05/20/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: calc procedure logic
My understanding of sprinkler design is that the cap is supposed to be ejected away from the sprinkler regardless of the pressure available. As soon as the element fuses, the cap springs free and clear - it should work whether its attached to a live system or sitting on your desk as a display. Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | http://www.kfiengineers.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com __ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: calc procedure logic
During Phoenix summers we verify that every time a box of heads sits outside in the back of a truck. Ron F -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic My understanding of sprinkler design is that the cap is supposed to be ejected away from the sprinkler regardless of the pressure available. As soon as the element fuses, the cap springs free and clear - it should work whether its attached to a live system or sitting on your desk as a display. Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | http://www.kfiengineers.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com __ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: calc procedure logic
lol Ron! Mark, I think there are 2 schools of thought about this, but in the case of open head deluge it should not matter. The question then is one of the pattern, and it is not like the pattern drops from 7'-6 radius to 0 at less than 7 psi! This could have a huge effect on the cost of big deluge systems like aircraft hangers. What do you think? Thanks for feedback. -Original Message- From: rfletc...@aerofire.com [mailto:rfletc...@aerofire.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:36 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic During Phoenix summers we verify that every time a box of heads sits outside in the back of a truck. Ron F -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic My understanding of sprinkler design is that the cap is supposed to be ejected away from the sprinkler regardless of the pressure available. As soon as the element fuses, the cap springs free and clear - it should work whether its attached to a live system or sitting on your desk as a display. Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | http://www.kfiengineers.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com __ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: calc procedure logic
At this point the common NICET level design has been left behind. I'd expect a rational analysis with a P.E. stamp. This is no longer an NFPA 13 system, at least for this aspect. Third party review by another P.E.? I don't know. I'd have to consider it further. bv - Original Message - From: George Church g...@rowesprinkler.com To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 7:13:22 AM Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Except that you are designing outside the standard. Can't recall ever even thinking of approaching an AHJ with 6 psi instead of 7. Sent from my iPhone On May 21, 2013, at 9:58 AM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote: Thanks John. Assuming that is true, we could say a 1/2 head at 7 psi throws 7'-6 each way. At 7 psi the water hits the deflector going 32.26 ft/sec. v=SQRT(2gh). At 6 psi it would be going 29.87 ft/sec, and would throw 6'-11 each way. -Original Message- From: John O'Connor [mailto:jocon...@nfspk.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:37 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic The 7.0 PSI end head minimum pressure was never intended to kick out the links, seat etc, but to develop the minimum spray pattern required to deliver the specified density. John O'Connor National Fire Sprinklers, Inc. Nashville TN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Wouldn't it depend on the application rate, area of protection and orifice size? Mark at Aero - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 01:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3162/5841 - Release Date: 05/20/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: calc procedure logic
In days of yore we would use 4.2K's mixed with 5.6K's for balancing. The low K higher pressure makes it much easier to balance and with 4.2's there was no danger of going below 7 psi. Now only 5.6 8k are listed with AFFF. Ron F -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:43 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic lol Ron! Mark, I think there are 2 schools of thought about this, but in the case of open head deluge it should not matter. The question then is one of the pattern, and it is not like the pattern drops from 7'-6 radius to 0 at less than 7 psi! This could have a huge effect on the cost of big deluge systems like aircraft hangers. What do you think? Thanks for feedback. -Original Message- From: rfletc...@aerofire.com [mailto:rfletc...@aerofire.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:36 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic During Phoenix summers we verify that every time a box of heads sits outside in the back of a truck. Ron F -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 11:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic My understanding of sprinkler design is that the cap is supposed to be ejected away from the sprinkler regardless of the pressure available. As soon as the element fuses, the cap springs free and clear - it should work whether its attached to a live system or sitting on your desk as a display. Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | http://www.kfiengineers.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com __ ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: calc procedure logic
You are confusing velocity with vector. Same head at 50 psi doesn't go much farther. Go grab a head and take a match to it. The link surely clears. The cap if upright stays. If pendant gravity takes care of it. Then you can see how little it takes to clear the cap. Why 7 psi? Why 52,000 sq.ft.? Why 1-12 The list is far too long. Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:54 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic Thanks John. Assuming that is true, we could say a 1/2 head at 7 psi throws 7'-6 each way. At 7 psi the water hits the deflector going 32.26 ft/sec. v=SQRT(2gh). At 6 psi it would be going 29.87 ft/sec, and would throw 6'-11 each way. -Original Message- From: John O'Connor [mailto:jocon...@nfspk.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:37 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic The 7.0 PSI end head minimum pressure was never intended to kick out the links, seat etc, but to develop the minimum spray pattern required to deliver the specified density. John O'Connor National Fire Sprinklers, Inc. Nashville TN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Wouldn't it depend on the application rate, area of protection and orifice size? Mark at Aero - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 01:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3162/5841 - Release Date: 05/20/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: calc procedure logic
Add some dried sludge and age 20 years. Mark, did u see the clogged drops on a DIPreAction sys up your way? I realize we need to maintain and cure bad ones with testing, but reality testing should include aging and normal degradation of system. Sent from my iPhone On May 21, 2013, at 4:28 PM, Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com wrote: You are confusing velocity with vector. Same head at 50 psi doesn't go much farther. Go grab a head and take a match to it. The link surely clears. The cap if upright stays. If pendant gravity takes care of it. Then you can see how little it takes to clear the cap. Why 7 psi? Why 52,000 sq.ft.? Why 1-12 The list is far too long. Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:54 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic Thanks John. Assuming that is true, we could say a 1/2 head at 7 psi throws 7'-6 each way. At 7 psi the water hits the deflector going 32.26 ft/sec. v=SQRT(2gh). At 6 psi it would be going 29.87 ft/sec, and would throw 6'-11 each way. -Original Message- From: John O'Connor [mailto:jocon...@nfspk.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:37 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic The 7.0 PSI end head minimum pressure was never intended to kick out the links, seat etc, but to develop the minimum spray pattern required to deliver the specified density. John O'Connor National Fire Sprinklers, Inc. Nashville TN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Wouldn't it depend on the application rate, area of protection and orifice size? Mark at Aero - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 01:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3162/5841 - Release Date: 05/20/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: calc procedure logic
7 psi is equivalent to ~32 ft/sec, another why. 400 heads at 130 s.f. =52,000 s.f. the standard ceiling jet is ~12 deep under smooth ceiling... I told my boss a while back there is nothing arbitrary in 13, then craw-fished out of the statement with, I have not found anything yet that was not based on SOMETHING. It is an excellent National Standard. I have heard for years that there were a lot of darts being thrown... rubbish!!:) My latest is why the stand at 500 gallon dry capacity for 60 second water delivery. I figured out how to calc dry valve trip time. If a standard is 250 gal capacity, 75 psi water, 6:1 clapper differential, 40 psi air at 70F, trip time= 30 seconds. So 500 gal is 60 sec, just for trip time. i can accept not having resolved the vectors, but velocity IS a vector, having both speed and direction. And if 50 psi would not go much further, 6 instead of 7 would not go much less. I appreciate pros such as you Chris, and i like thinking about everything i can, to suggest ways all you pros can form a more perfect 13. -Original Message- From: Cahill, Christopher [mailto:ccah...@burnsmcd.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic You are confusing velocity with vector. Same head at 50 psi doesn't go much farther. Go grab a head and take a match to it. The link surely clears. The cap if upright stays. If pendant gravity takes care of it. Then you can see how little it takes to clear the cap. Why 7 psi? Why 52,000 sq.ft.? Why 1-12 The list is far too long. Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:54 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic Thanks John. Assuming that is true, we could say a 1/2 head at 7 psi throws 7'-6 each way. At 7 psi the water hits the deflector going 32.26 ft/sec. v=SQRT(2gh). At 6 psi it would be going 29.87 ft/sec, and would throw 6'-11 each way. -Original Message- From: John O'Connor [mailto:jocon...@nfspk.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:37 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic The 7.0 PSI end head minimum pressure was never intended to kick out the links, seat etc, but to develop the minimum spray pattern required to deliver the specified density. John O'Connor National Fire Sprinklers, Inc. Nashville TN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Wouldn't it depend on the application rate, area of protection and orifice size? Mark at Aero - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 01:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3162/5841 - Release Date: 05/20/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: calc procedure logic
It doesn't matter what kind of math you do. You can't cipher your way out of this one. Sixth grade graduate and all not withstanding. The book says 7 psi. The baseline protocols for all standard spray heads are predicated on 7 psi. Want something else then develop a head. Convince UL that a new protocol is in order. Prove that the protocol is equivalent in performance to the old protocol. Test, test , test. Get listed under new protocol. Voila! Yo now have a special application head, not an SS, that requires a different, specific and listed design criterion. Thank Cecil for poking the old bear. End of story. On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Brad Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.comwrote: 7 psi is equivalent to ~32 ft/sec, another why. 400 heads at 130 s.f. =52,000 s.f. the standard ceiling jet is ~12 deep under smooth ceiling... I told my boss a while back there is nothing arbitrary in 13, then craw-fished out of the statement with, I have not found anything yet that was not based on SOMETHING. It is an excellent National Standard. I have heard for years that there were a lot of darts being thrown... rubbish!!:) My latest is why the stand at 500 gallon dry capacity for 60 second water delivery. I figured out how to calc dry valve trip time. If a standard is 250 gal capacity, 75 psi water, 6:1 clapper differential, 40 psi air at 70F, trip time= 30 seconds. So 500 gal is 60 sec, just for trip time. i can accept not having resolved the vectors, but velocity IS a vector, having both speed and direction. And if 50 psi would not go much further, 6 instead of 7 would not go much less. I appreciate pros such as you Chris, and i like thinking about everything i can, to suggest ways all you pros can form a more perfect 13. -Original Message- From: Cahill, Christopher [mailto:ccah...@burnsmcd.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:28 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic You are confusing velocity with vector. Same head at 50 psi doesn't go much farther. Go grab a head and take a match to it. The link surely clears. The cap if upright stays. If pendant gravity takes care of it. Then you can see how little it takes to clear the cap. Why 7 psi? Why 52,000 sq.ft.? Why 1-12 The list is far too long. Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:54 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic Thanks John. Assuming that is true, we could say a 1/2 head at 7 psi throws 7'-6 each way. At 7 psi the water hits the deflector going 32.26 ft/sec. v=SQRT(2gh). At 6 psi it would be going 29.87 ft/sec, and would throw 6'-11 each way. -Original Message- From: John O'Connor [mailto:jocon...@nfspk.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:37 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic The 7.0 PSI end head minimum pressure was never intended to kick out the links, seat etc, but to develop the minimum spray pattern required to deliver the specified density. John O'Connor National Fire Sprinklers, Inc. Nashville TN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Wouldn't it depend on the application rate, area of protection and orifice size? Mark at Aero - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 01:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi
RE: calc procedure logic
Chris forgot to ask where babies come from. The answer - as I understand it - to the 52,000 sq. ft. question is ... mildly amusing. SL -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org on behalf of George Church Sent: Tue 5/21/2013 1:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Add some dried sludge and age 20 years. Mark, did u see the clogged drops on a DIPreAction sys up your way? I realize we need to maintain and cure bad ones with testing, but reality testing should include aging and normal degradation of system. Sent from my iPhone On May 21, 2013, at 4:28 PM, Cahill, Christopher ccah...@burnsmcd.com wrote: You are confusing velocity with vector. Same head at 50 psi doesn't go much farther. Go grab a head and take a match to it. The link surely clears. The cap if upright stays. If pendant gravity takes care of it. Then you can see how little it takes to clear the cap. Why 7 psi? Why 52,000 sq.ft.? Why 1-12 The list is far too long. Chris Cahill, PE* Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation Facilities Group Burns McDonnell 8201 Norman Center Drive Bloomington, MN 55437 Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For *Registered in: MN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:54 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic Thanks John. Assuming that is true, we could say a 1/2 head at 7 psi throws 7'-6 each way. At 7 psi the water hits the deflector going 32.26 ft/sec. v=SQRT(2gh). At 6 psi it would be going 29.87 ft/sec, and would throw 6'-11 each way. -Original Message- From: John O'Connor [mailto:jocon...@nfspk.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:37 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: calc procedure logic The 7.0 PSI end head minimum pressure was never intended to kick out the links, seat etc, but to develop the minimum spray pattern required to deliver the specified density. John O'Connor National Fire Sprinklers, Inc. Nashville TN -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: calc procedure logic Wouldn't it depend on the application rate, area of protection and orifice size? Mark at Aero - Original Message - From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 01:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: calc procedure logic Would the 7 psi minimum operating pressure from NFPA 13 Calculation Procedure apply to open head deluge, since the operating parts have already been ejected clear of the frame and deflector by a ball-peen hammer? Brad Casterline, NICET IV Fire Protection Division FSC, Inc. P: 913-722-3473 bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com www.fsc-inc.com Engineering Solutions for the Built Environment ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3162/5841 - Release Date: 05/20/13 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
