Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Noel Frankinet]

Lets agree to disagree, sqlite is completely cross-plaform. You could
develop a cross plate-form solution  in the same time (Qt or Tcl/tk). The
95% market does not hold if you think smart-phone and tablet (a good target
for a simple data entry application). If you only want windows, why not
uuse Access in the first place? But anyway...


On 10 December 2012 15:33, Gilles Ganault  wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:07:05 +0100, Noel Frankinet
>  wrote:
> >It's probably a good way to get something working, but you loose the
> >cross-platform
>
> I know, but Windows is 95% of the market for end-users, cross-platform
> is a pain to write, they take longer to load and always look/act funny
> anyway :-)
>
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-- 
Noël Frankinet
Strategis sprl
0478/90.92.54
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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Gilles Ganault]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:07:05 +0100, Noel Frankinet
 wrote:
>It's probably a good way to get something working, but you loose the
>cross-platform

I know, but Windows is 95% of the market for end-users, cross-platform
is a pain to write, they take longer to load and always look/act funny
anyway :-)

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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Noel Frankinet]

It's probably a good way to get something working, but you loose the
cross-platform


On 10 December 2012 14:47, Gilles Ganault  wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 11:49:31 +, Simon Slavin
>  wrote:
> >There are lots of people who manipulate data that way, but they tend to
> export
> > their data from the SQLite database into their favourite spreadsheet app,
> > do the manipulation there, then reimport to SQLite.
> > This prevents them from having to use an app which doesn't have
> > all the facilities they expect from their spreadsheet app.
> >
> >The SQLite shell tool (free) makes the export and import processes easy
> (can be done in one command).
>
> I'll see if there's a good datagrid + SQLite connector for .Net so I
> can combine the two and see how it goes.
>
> Thanks all.
>
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-- 
Noël Frankinet
Strategis sprl
0478/90.92.54
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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Gilles Ganault]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 11:49:31 +, Simon Slavin
 wrote:
>There are lots of people who manipulate data that way, but they tend to export
> their data from the SQLite database into their favourite spreadsheet app,
> do the manipulation there, then reimport to SQLite.
> This prevents them from having to use an app which doesn't have
> all the facilities they expect from their spreadsheet app.
>
>The SQLite shell tool (free) makes the export and import processes easy (can 
>be done in one command).

I'll see if there's a good datagrid + SQLite connector for .Net so I
can combine the two and see how it goes.

Thanks all.

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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Simon Slavin]

On 10 Dec 2012, at 11:00am, Gilles Ganault  wrote:

> That's why I thought there could be a need for a datagrid that would
> save data in SQLite and provide basic sort/search functions.

There are lots of people who manipulate data that way, but they tend to export 
their data from the SQLite database into their favourite spreadsheet app, do 
the manipulation there, then reimport to SQLite.  This prevents them from 
having to use an app which doesn't have all the facilities they expect from 
their spreadsheet app.

The SQLite shell tool (free) makes the export and import processes easy (can be 
done in one command).

Simon.
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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Gilles Ganault]

On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 14:15:30 +0100, Olaf Schmidt
 wrote:
>The only thing remaining for a decent workflow, which in
>the end is based on SQLite-storage, would then be a small
>batch-program or -script, which ensures the SQLite-To-CSV
>conversion (the sqlite-commandline-tool could do that) -
>accompanied by a second batch-file which ensures the
>back-conversion from CSV to SQLite-DBTable (and maybe
>also already the direct upload to a given WebServer).

Thanks for the idea. I actually do the opposit when I need to sort
data: Export from spreadsheet as CVS > import into SQLite, and run
some SQL commands.

That's why I thought there could be a need for a datagrid that would
save data in SQLite and provide basic sort/search functions.

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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Gilles Ganault]

On Sun, 9 Dec 2012 07:42:08 -0600, "Michael Black"
 wrote:
>Generally speaking database and spreadsheet functionality are not similar
>enough to combine.

Thanks for the input. Indee, maybe the two concepts are just too
different.

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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[noel.frankinet]

Le 9/12/2012 13:40, Gilles Ganault a écrit :

On Sun, 9 Dec 2012 11:40:15 +, Simon Slavin
 wrote:

If you think you can make money by providing a basic app, write one and market 
it.

People don't want one.  If they have already paid for and learned to use Excel, 
they'll use that.
If they haven't, they'll use anything that's free.  They don't care whether the 
data engine is SQLite or anything else.

Yup.

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I, for one, think that its a good idea, and some people would pay money 
for it. I would for instance.


Best regards
Noël
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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Michael Black]

You're finding out that "simple" and "complete" are frequently mutually
exclusiveespecially when defined by you.
Chances are that if what you want doesn't exist there's a good reason for
it.either not practical or not useful or doable by other means already.
To make a powerful, idiot proof system is quite difficult.

By the time you get to DB functionality you will lose most users.

Do you perhaps want a web-based version?
http://www.debianhelp.co.uk/sqliteweb.htm

Generally speaking database and spreadsheet functionality are not similar
enough to combine.
Why do you think Excel and Access are two separate products?  Just like all
other office suites?
They narrow their comp ability problems by importing/exporting to each
other.

The only concept they have in common is rows/columns/tables -- and
spreadsheets didn't have tables at first (i.e. tabs).  But the spreadsheet
rows/columns is not really db rows/columns.  The spreadsheet version is
transposable for example making the row/column definition very loose.

P.S. I've changed my sqlite mail subscription to my private email now.
Found out that Microsquish Exchange doesn't put the REFERENCES tag back in
replies.  So that was breaking the topic threading. 

Michael Black


-Original Message-
From: sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org
[mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Gilles Ganault
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 5:14 AM
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 00:04:40 +0100, Olaf Schmidt
<s...@online.de> wrote:
>If no such special Formatting is needed, then the
>term "DataGrid" is the more common one, since
>"real SpreadSheet functionality" is usually associated
>with the extended requirements (at individual cell-level)
>I've listed above.

Thanks for the input. Indeed, a datagrid looks more like what I had in
mind, since people using Excel just to build lists probably don't need
that much control.

OTOH, whoever writes that application could always provide two
version: Basic (datagrid) and Pro (spreadsheet).

SQLite being such a great tool, I just find it sad/odd that no one has
come up with a datagrid/spreadsheet for non-techies that saves data in
an SQLite DB. Currently, it's either Excel for most people although
it's not a DB, or Access for the few (or Libre/OpenOffice + ODBC/JDBC,
which is just as hard or harder than Access).

Thank you.

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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Olaf Schmidt]

Am 09.12.2012 12:40, schrieb Simon Slavin:


On 9 Dec 2012, at 11:13am, Gilles Ganault  wrote:


OTOH, whoever writes that application could always provide two
version: Basic (datagrid) and Pro (spreadsheet).


If you think you can make money by providing a basic app, write one and market 
it.

People don't want one.  If they have already paid for and learned to use Excel,
they'll use that.  If they haven't, they'll use anything that's free.
They don't care whether the data engine is SQLite or anything else.



Yep - and for those who want "Excel-like Editing-Comfort
for simple Data-Lists" - there's always the option,
to work with Excel or OpenOffice-Calc on *.csv-Files
(*.csv usually opens without problems in a SpreadSheet-
 Application).

@Gilles
The only thing remaining for a decent workflow, which in
the end is based on SQLite-storage, would then be a small
batch-program or -script, which ensures the SQLite-To-CSV
conversion (the sqlite-commandline-tool could do that) -
accompanied by a second batch-file which ensures the
back-conversion from CSV to SQLite-DBTable (and maybe
also already the direct upload to a given WebServer).

Along with a tool or script which is "Watching for Folder-Changes",
one could automate that entirely, including a potential
WebServer-Synchronizing.

Olaf

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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Gilles Ganault]

On Sun, 9 Dec 2012 11:40:15 +, Simon Slavin
 wrote:
>If you think you can make money by providing a basic app, write one and market 
>it.
>
>People don't want one.  If they have already paid for and learned to use 
>Excel, they'll use that.
> If they haven't, they'll use anything that's free.  They don't care whether 
> the data engine is SQLite or anything else.

Yup.

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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Simon Slavin]

On 9 Dec 2012, at 11:13am, Gilles Ganault  wrote:

> OTOH, whoever writes that application could always provide two
> version: Basic (datagrid) and Pro (spreadsheet).

If you think you can make money by providing a basic app, write one and market 
it.

People don't want one.  If they have already paid for and learned to use Excel, 
they'll use that.  If they haven't, they'll use anything that's free.  They 
don't care whether the data engine is SQLite or anything else.

Simon.
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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Gilles Ganault]

On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 00:04:40 +0100, Olaf Schmidt
 wrote:
>If no such special Formatting is needed, then the
>term "DataGrid" is the more common one, since
>"real SpreadSheet functionality" is usually associated
>with the extended requirements (at individual cell-level)
>I've listed above.

Thanks for the input. Indeed, a datagrid looks more like what I had in
mind, since people using Excel just to build lists probably don't need
that much control.

OTOH, whoever writes that application could always provide two
version: Basic (datagrid) and Pro (spreadsheet).

SQLite being such a great tool, I just find it sad/odd that no one has
come up with a datagrid/spreadsheet for non-techies that saves data in
an SQLite DB. Currently, it's either Excel for most people although
it's not a DB, or Access for the few (or Libre/OpenOffice + ODBC/JDBC,
which is just as hard or harder than Access).

Thank you.

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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Gilles Ganault]

On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 00:49:03 +0100, Jean-Christophe Deschamps
 wrote:
>What are those $20 suppose to pay for? 

Licenses by users interested in buying that utility optimized to build
lists and sort data much better than in Excel (which isn't meant for
that, but people use it anyway since they don't know any better).

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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[David Bicking]

I will say one of the spreadsheet like functions I have wanted, and haven't 
really seen, is the ability to copy a value in to the column in multiple rows. 
MS Access doesn't allow that, but it is trival in a spreadsheet, just highlight 
the cells, and Ctrl-D to copy the value down.. I don't recall seeing any 
general purpose database manager that can do that. hell, most don't even let 
you modify a value in the cell itself.

I'd also say that the autofilters that a spreadsheet offer are way easier for 
the non-technical to use than for them trying to craft a sql where clause to 
limit the results shown.

I also see users highlighting rows within the excel sheet. That would be 
invisible to my link to the data in the table, but is meaningful to them. But I 
don't see how that could be made generic, so I don't think it could be done for 
something that really is an sqlite table.

And this needs to be something that any user with some experience using a 
program like excel could just pick up. Not something that someone has to 
"program" for them.

David


PS: What I would love to see is that the display would be smart enough to
insert subtotal rows in the data. I know I hate looking at the totals
in a report, then having to go to another view/tool to fix the
underlying data. But that would be kind of advanced. Stilll, I guess could be 
the information to insert the subtotals could be saved in a meta-data table.




- Original Message -
From: Gilles Ganault <gilles.gana...@free.fr>
To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

On Sat, 8 Dec 2012 20:58:17 +, Simon Slavin
<slav...@bigfraud.org> wrote:
>On the other hand, if you put in the great amount of effort to write
>a general tool and clean it up so other people can use it,
>it requires enough time that you'll want to charge for your work. 
>Hence the large number of tools out there that aren't free.

Ok, but where are the large number of tools that would do that?

Features:
- very fast, very basic spreadsheet (not based on Excel or
Libre/OpenOffice)
- saves data in SQLite
- very easy to create new tables + columns
- lets the user edit rows/columns as easily as in Excel
- data can be sorted by any column
- access to SQL a plus, but must not be required, as the app is meant
to non-techies

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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Jean-Christophe Deschamps]

Let's see.

100.000 licenses @ $20 = $2.000.000

Cayman S = $65.000
www.gizmag.com/porsche-cayman/25260/

=> 30 cars.

Kim Dotcom! :-)


What are those $20 suppose to pay for? 


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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Gilles Ganault]

On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 23:30:09 +0100, Jean-Christophe Deschamps
 wrote:
>Either use a full-blown SQLite DB manager (e.g. the free version of 
>SQLite Expert among others) or develop a simple script based on an 
>ad-hoc ListView and SQLite functions using something like AutoIt.
>
>In the latter case it can be tailored exactly to your needs, hiding 
>everything too tech-savvy yet giving you full control of how the 
>application would evolve.
>
>Can be made in a couple of hours with AutoIt, providing a stand-alone 
>executable freely distributable and for free.

Thanks, but I was not looking for a hack, but rather an actual
application meant for regular people.

Let's see.

100.000 licenses @ $20 = $2.000.000

Cayman S = $65.000
www.gizmag.com/porsche-cayman/25260/

=> 30 cars.

Kim Dotcom! :-)

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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Olaf Schmidt]

Am 08.12.2012 22:09, schrieb Gilles Ganault:


Ok, but where are the large number of tools that would do that?

Features:
- very fast, very basic spreadsheet (not based on Excel or
  Libre/OpenOffice)


I think you will have to be more specific with regards
to "spreadsheet-like functionality".

Do you need Formulas in individual cells (difficult
with a DB-Table-Backend) or just for "entire columns"
(a bit easier then with a DB-Table-based-"DocFormat")...

Do you need individual "Formats" (BackGround-Colors, or
Font- Types/Colors/Sizes/Weights as well as "Format-Strings
to render Double- or Date-Values" appropriately) ...
at cell-level ... or just for entire columns...?

If no such special Formatting is needed, then the
term "DataGrid" is the more common one, since
"real SpreadSheet functionality" is usually associated
with the extended requirements (at individual cell-level)
I've listed above.


- saves data in SQLite

Even with "all the extended formatting", just mentioned
above, you could of course save everything which makes
up such a "real spread-sheet-document" against a single
SQLite-DB-File as your choice of "Document-storage".

But the result would then be in its own kind of special
"DB-Document-Format" - involving more than one table
per document-page (in case you want to use efficient
storage with a kind of "applied normalization").

To store more than just the "Raw-Column-Data" in only
a *single* table would require a lot of "sparsely
populated, 'kind of hidden' extra-Columns"...

And since in your first posting you wrote:
   "I need to enter a bunch of items into a table
that I can later read from a web app."

I wonder, whether you expect the webapp to visualize
your (then retrieved at the [Web]serverside I assume)
SQLite-Data with all the "pretty spreadsheet-like
formatting" - or just "datagrid-like column-based
Text-Formatting"?

If it is "Rich-Offline-Formatting of Table-like views"
to finally feed a WebApp (after uploading such an
Offline-created Doc.) - then there's either the HTML-
export-Option of OpenOffice for example - or you can
use the Browser- or HTML/JS-based stuff out there,
which helps to create such rich formatted table-views
directly (for example HTML/JS-based WYSIWYG-Editors
with a good Table-Plugin - or e.g. the Google-Docs-
Spreadsheet).
...just to mention some "Web"-options, which don't involve
storing the Document in an SQLite-File.

If you want more DataGrid-like Web-Editing in your
Browser, then there's also a lot of "DataGrid-like"
JS-Components (e.g. direct jQuery-based ones - or
those included in the larger JS-based Toolkits, like
in the Ext-Framework for example).
Those would require a serverside serialization of
(SQLite)-DataContent into XML or JSON usually -
to be more easily "bindable" to the JS-based Grids.


- very easy to create new tables + columns
- lets the user edit rows/columns as easily as in Excel
- data can be sorted by any column
- access to SQL a plus, but must not be required, as the app is meant
to non-techies


This last block of your requirements is already addressed
(more or less) by many of the already existing "SQLite-Admin-Apps"
out there, a few of them also offering "In-Table-Cell-Editing
of raw Column-Data" - but as said - this would be what is known
as "DataGrid-Mode", it's not "real SpreadSheet-Functionality".

But as others have already mentioned - if your requirements are
"somewhat special" (outside the Standard-usecase) - and the
Browserbased JS-Frameworks or -components are not "your thing" -
then use some existing Grid- or Spreadsheet-components for
your language of choice - there's real spreadsheet-components
out there - as well as all kind of different DataGrid-components
(for the Windows-World these would come as Dlls, OCXes or
Delphi-VCLs or .NET or Java-based components).

The normal DataGrid-components can be bound with only a few
lines of code, to work directly also against SQLite-Backends...
The SpreadSheet-Components usually support DB-Backend-Binding
as well (on Windows usually over ADO or ADO.NET) - but as
soon as you want to use their full formatting-options, you
will have to use their proprietary SpreadsheetDoc-Format -
though most of them also offer "Excel-Export".

Olaf


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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Gilles Ganault]

On Sat, 8 Dec 2012 22:34:28 +, Simon Slavin
 wrote:
>Google 'sqlite database editor'

Thanks. I'll check 'em out, although it's very likely those are meant
for computer people, not regular folks.

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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Simon Slavin]

On 8 Dec 2012, at 9:09pm, Gilles Ganault  wrote:

> Ok, but where are the large number of tools that would do that?

Google 'sqlite database editor'

http://sqlitebrowser.sourceforge.net
http://saxmike.com/MySoftware/MySoftware.asp
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.speedsoftware.sqleditor=en
http://www.sqliteexpert.com
http://www.razorsql.com/features/sqlite_table_editor.html
http://www.sqlmaestro.com/products/sqlite/maestro/

first ones I found, but there's no sign it stopped there.

Simon.
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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Jean-Christophe Deschamps]

Ok, but where are the large number of tools that would do that?

Features:
- very fast, very basic spreadsheet (not based on Excel or
Libre/OpenOffice)
- saves data in SQLite
- very easy to create new tables + columns
- lets the user edit rows/columns as easily as in Excel
- data can be sorted by any column
- access to SQL a plus, but must not be required, as the app is meant
to non-techies


Either use a full-blown SQLite DB manager (e.g. the free version of 
SQLite Expert among others) or develop a simple script based on an 
ad-hoc ListView and SQLite functions using something like AutoIt.


In the latter case it can be tailored exactly to your needs, hiding 
everything too tech-savvy yet giving you full control of how the 
application would evolve.


Can be made in a couple of hours with AutoIt, providing a stand-alone 
executable freely distributable and for free.


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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Gilles Ganault]

On Sat, 8 Dec 2012 20:58:17 +, Simon Slavin
 wrote:
>On the other hand, if you put in the great amount of effort to write
>a general tool and clean it up so other people can use it,
>it requires enough time that you'll want to charge for your work. 
>Hence the large number of tools out there that aren't free.

Ok, but where are the large number of tools that would do that?

Features:
- very fast, very basic spreadsheet (not based on Excel or
Libre/OpenOffice)
- saves data in SQLite
- very easy to create new tables + columns
- lets the user edit rows/columns as easily as in Excel
- data can be sorted by any column
- access to SQL a plus, but must not be required, as the app is meant
to non-techies

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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Simon Slavin]

On 8 Dec 2012, at 8:08pm, Gilles Ganault  wrote:

> Thanks Peter. I'll add it to the list of things to check. Maybe what I
> had in mind was harder to develop, or simpy no one had any need for
> it.

They're easy to write but you'll find that everyone wants one that works 
exactly the way they want it.  Whatever it is you write for yourself will be so 
customised for your needs that it's useless for other people.

On the other hand, if you put in the great amount of effort to write a general 
tool and clean it up so other people can use it, it requires enough time that 
you'll want to charge for your work.  Hence the large number of tools out there 
that aren't free.

Simon.
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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Gilles Ganault]

On Sat, 8 Dec 2012 09:49:09 -0800, Peter Haworth
 wrote:
>As others have mentioned, there are several third party products out there
>that will do something similar to what you want.  My SQLiteAdmin tool has a
>grid view of data in a table.  You can't edit directly in the table but
>below the table is an area that you could think of as something like an
>Excel form where you can insert and update entries.  I have an enhancement
>request pending to allow direct input to the grid for insert and update
>purposes.

Thanks Peter. I'll add it to the list of things to check. Maybe what I
had in mind was harder to develop, or simpy no one had any need for
it.

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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Peter Haworth]

Hi Gille,
As others have mentioned, there are several third party products out there
that will do something similar to what you want.  My SQLiteAdmin tool has a
grid view of data in a table.  You can't edit directly in the table but
below the table is an area that you could think of as something like an
Excel form where you can insert and update entries.  I have an enhancement
request pending to allow direct input to the grid for insert and update
purposes.

It's available for OSX, WIndows, and Linux at the web site in my signature.

Pete
lcSQL Software <http://www.lcsql.com>



On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 9:00 AM, <sqlite-users-requ...@sqlite.org> wrote:

> Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2012 02:36:17 +0100
> From: Gilles Ganault <gilles.gana...@free.fr>
> To: sqlite-users@sqlite.org
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?
> Message-ID: <cb65c8ts2brqjkc6dits30tlk9vua83...@4ax.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Fri, 7 Dec 2012 20:22:56 -0500,
> da...@dandymadeproductions.com wrote:
> >Or perhaps MyJSQLView
> >Be sure to install Xerial JDBC jar in jre/lib/ext/
> >
> >http://myjsqlview.org
> >http://www.xerial.org
>
> Thanks for the tip. Java + JDBC + SQLite seems a bit heavy, though.
>
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Re: [sqlite] Subject: Re: Simple SQLite-based spreadsheet?

[Gilles Ganault]

On Fri, 7 Dec 2012 20:22:56 -0500,
da...@dandymadeproductions.com wrote:
>Or perhaps MyJSQLView
>Be sure to install Xerial JDBC jar in jre/lib/ext/
>
>http://myjsqlview.org
>http://www.xerial.org

Thanks for the tip. Java + JDBC + SQLite seems a bit heavy, though.

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