Re: [Sugar-devel] Just learned about Mistery Meat Navigation
explicit help button that toggles an overlay with help bubbles would be best. D'oh, good call, totally missed help overlay. Interesting, this is what Gary pointed in the Simple help system for Sugar thread. Forgive a stupid question, but I'm not sure where to find the existing Sugar help designs to get context. The sugar labs wiki? On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 10:43, Bert Freudenberg b...@freudenbergs.de wrote: On 27.03.2012, at 15:24, Manuel Quiñones wrote: El día 27 de marzo de 2012 08:04, Bert Freudenberg b...@freudenbergs.de escribió: IMHO, an explicit help button that toggles an overlay with help bubbles would be best. Takes up less space than actual labels. Here's an example: http://thedigitalstory.com/2012/03/5_tips_for_working_w.html Interesting, this is what Gary pointed in the Simple help system for Sugar thread. Yes, that, and also combined with your idea of an overlayed help window. Tapping the help button brings up the bubbles with a short description. But some bubbles also link to a more complete help widget. I'm referring to this screenshot: http://thedigitalstory.com/2012/03/08/iPhoto_for_iPad.png Tapping the arrow on the right of these bubbles opens a Help window in the middle of the screen, and jumps to the relevant page. It's organized hierarchically, and articles have hyperlinks to related topics. Plus there's full text search. - Bert - ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Just learned about Mistery Meat Navigation
On 29.03.2012, at 14:14, Carl Angiolillo wrote: explicit help button that toggles an overlay with help bubbles would be best. D'oh, good call, totally missed help overlay. Interesting, this is what Gary pointed in the Simple help system for Sugar thread. Forgive a stupid question, but I'm not sure where to find the existing Sugar help designs to get context. The sugar labs wiki? 3 weeks ago on this list: http://www.mail-archive.com/iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org/msg13364.html Would be good to consolidate the discussion into a wiki page though, agreed. - Bert - On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 10:43, Bert Freudenberg b...@freudenbergs.de wrote: On 27.03.2012, at 15:24, Manuel Quiñones wrote: El día 27 de marzo de 2012 08:04, Bert Freudenberg b...@freudenbergs.de escribió: IMHO, an explicit help button that toggles an overlay with help bubbles would be best. Takes up less space than actual labels. Here's an example: http://thedigitalstory.com/2012/03/5_tips_for_working_w.html Interesting, this is what Gary pointed in the Simple help system for Sugar thread. Yes, that, and also combined with your idea of an overlayed help window. Tapping the help button brings up the bubbles with a short description. But some bubbles also link to a more complete help widget. I'm referring to this screenshot: http://thedigitalstory.com/2012/03/08/iPhoto_for_iPad.png Tapping the arrow on the right of these bubbles opens a Help window in the middle of the screen, and jumps to the relevant page. It's organized hierarchically, and articles have hyperlinks to related topics. Plus there's full text search. - Bert - ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Just learned about Mistery Meat Navigation
Hi, El día 29 de marzo de 2012 09:29, Bert Freudenberg b...@freudenbergs.de escribió: On 29.03.2012, at 14:14, Carl Angiolillo wrote: explicit help button that toggles an overlay with help bubbles would be best. D'oh, good call, totally missed help overlay. Interesting, this is what Gary pointed in the Simple help system for Sugar thread. Forgive a stupid question, but I'm not sure where to find the existing Sugar help designs to get context. The sugar labs wiki? 3 weeks ago on this list: http://www.mail-archive.com/iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org/msg13364.html Would be good to consolidate the discussion into a wiki page though, agreed. Sure! No time to edit now, but I started it here: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Proposals/Help_In_Context -- .. manuq .. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Just learned about Mistery Meat Navigation
IMHO, an explicit help button that toggles an overlay with help bubbles would be best. Takes up less space than actual labels. Here's an example: http://thedigitalstory.com/2012/03/5_tips_for_working_w.html - Bert - On 27.03.2012, at 06:44, Carl Angiolillo wrote: However, that is different than the icons you use everyday. True. The time spent learning iconography is amortized while the pixel costs of the label remain fixed so those text labels that were very helpful at first end up consuming unnecessary real-estate as the kids become experts. However, if the kids become frustrated by confusing buttons* they might not bother becoming experts at all so it's worth keeping an eye on during testing. on a touch screen ... there's no obvious way to get the text descriptions to pop up. The method Android uses is to long press on a button to display its label. I doubt this qualifies as obvious judging by the fact that this was slipped quietly into 4.0 and I've never observed anyone using it. Some interfaces (like native OS X toolbars or MS Office products) allow text labels to be turned on and off by the user. I've used time-delay fade-in labels on touchscreens (which were supposed to help novices while not impacting expert use) but they turned out to be too distracting and not helpful in the case of buttons that remain visible all the time. The simplest method might be to bite the bullet, spend the pixels, and add text labels to buttons on touchscreen devices. Carl *...e.g., a sound icon shaped like the profile of an internal electronic component or a stop icon shaped like an octagon even in Libya, Zimbabwe, the Bahamas, or Japan. On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 19:37, Bert Freudenberg b...@freudenbergs.de wrote: On 21.03.2012, at 00:16, C. Scott Ananian wrote: On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Gonzalo Odiard gonz...@laptop.org wrote: If you find non obvious icons, can report to try to improve. May be adults have problems with icons, but kids don't, just see a kid playing in any internet site. These icons become much more problematic on a touch screen, where there's no obvious way to get the text descriptions to pop up. --scott OTOH, on a web site, you just want to get results quickly, and then maybe never visit again. It's not worth learning what the icons mean, since they most likely are unique to that site. That's why using icons like in the video fails. However, that is different than the icons you use everyday. Those are worth learning. Of course, the learning must be made possible, and hopefully enjoyable. But the gut reaction of I as an adult can't figure it out at first glance, so it must be bad isn't quite appropriate. - Bert - ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Just learned about Mistery Meat Navigation
El día 27 de marzo de 2012 08:04, Bert Freudenberg b...@freudenbergs.de escribió: IMHO, an explicit help button that toggles an overlay with help bubbles would be best. Takes up less space than actual labels. Here's an example: http://thedigitalstory.com/2012/03/5_tips_for_working_w.html Interesting, this is what Gary pointed in the Simple help system for Sugar thread. -- .. manuq .. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Just learned about Mistery Meat Navigation
On 27.03.2012, at 15:24, Manuel Quiñones wrote: El día 27 de marzo de 2012 08:04, Bert Freudenberg b...@freudenbergs.de escribió: IMHO, an explicit help button that toggles an overlay with help bubbles would be best. Takes up less space than actual labels. Here's an example: http://thedigitalstory.com/2012/03/5_tips_for_working_w.html Interesting, this is what Gary pointed in the Simple help system for Sugar thread. Yes, that, and also combined with your idea of an overlayed help window. Tapping the help button brings up the bubbles with a short description. But some bubbles also link to a more complete help widget. I'm referring to this screenshot: http://thedigitalstory.com/2012/03/08/iPhoto_for_iPad.png Tapping the arrow on the right of these bubbles opens a Help window in the middle of the screen, and jumps to the relevant page. It's organized hierarchically, and articles have hyperlinks to related topics. Plus there's full text search. - Bert - ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Just learned about Mistery Meat Navigation
However, that is different than the icons you use everyday. True. The time spent learning iconography is amortized while the pixel costs of the label remain fixed so those text labels that were very helpful at first end up consuming unnecessary real-estate as the kids become experts. However, if the kids become frustrated by confusing buttons* they might not bother becoming experts at all so it's worth keeping an eye on during testing. on a touch screen ... there's no obvious way to get the text descriptions to pop up. The method Android uses is to long press on a button to display its label. I doubt this qualifies as obvious judging by the fact that this was slipped quietly into 4.0 and I've never observed anyone using it. Some interfaces (like native OS X toolbars or MS Office products) allow text labels to be turned on and off by the user. I've used time-delay fade-in labels on touchscreens (which were supposed to help novices while not impacting expert use) but they turned out to be too distracting and not helpful in the case of buttons that remain visible all the time. The simplest method might be to bite the bullet, spend the pixels, and add text labels to buttons on touchscreen devices. Carl *...e.g., a sound icon shaped like the profile of an internal electronic component or a stop icon shaped like an octagon even in Libya, Zimbabwe, the Bahamas, or Japan. On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 19:37, Bert Freudenberg b...@freudenbergs.dewrote: On 21.03.2012, at 00:16, C. Scott Ananian wrote: On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Gonzalo Odiard gonz...@laptop.org wrote: If you find non obvious icons, can report to try to improve. May be adults have problems with icons, but kids don't, just see a kid playing in any internet site. These icons become much more problematic on a touch screen, where there's no obvious way to get the text descriptions to pop up. --scott OTOH, on a web site, you just want to get results quickly, and then maybe never visit again. It's not worth learning what the icons mean, since they most likely are unique to that site. That's why using icons like in the video fails. However, that is different than the icons you use everyday. Those are worth learning. Of course, the learning must be made possible, and hopefully enjoyable. But the gut reaction of I as an adult can't figure it out at first glance, so it must be bad isn't quite appropriate. - Bert - ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
[Sugar-devel] Just learned about Mistery Meat Navigation
Learned yesterday about Mistery Meat Navigation, and example of which is show in this video of a website http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zd0Uc8Oixg . The typical form of MMN is represented by menus composed of unrevealing icons that are replaced with explicative text only when the mouse cursor hovers over them. Just some food for though. (Lots more examples at http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/mysterymeatnavigation.html ). Eduardo ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Just learned about Mistery Meat Navigation
Sorry for sending this twice, I thought I had the address wrong the first time. Eduardo No dia 20 de Março de 2012 20:43, Eduardo H. Silva hoboprim...@gmail.com escreveu: Learned yesterday about Mistery Meat Navigation, and example of which is show in this video of a website http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zd0Uc8Oixg . The typical form of MMN is represented by menus composed of unrevealing icons that are replaced with explicative text only when the mouse cursor hovers over them. Just some food for though. (Lots more examples at http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/mysterymeatnavigation.html ). Eduardo ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Just learned about Mistery Meat Navigation
If you find non obvious icons, can report to try to improve. May be adults have problems with icons, but kids don't, just see a kid playing in any internet site. Gonzalo On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 5:43 PM, Eduardo H. Silva hoboprim...@gmail.comwrote: Learned yesterday about Mistery Meat Navigation, and example of which is show in this video of a website http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zd0Uc8Oixg . The typical form of MMN is represented by menus composed of unrevealing icons that are replaced with explicative text only when the mouse cursor hovers over them. Just some food for though. (Lots more examples at http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/mysterymeatnavigation.html ). Eduardo ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Just learned about Mistery Meat Navigation
On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Gonzalo Odiard gonz...@laptop.org wrote: If you find non obvious icons, can report to try to improve. May be adults have problems with icons, but kids don't, just see a kid playing in any internet site. These icons become much more problematic on a touch screen, where there's no obvious way to get the text descriptions to pop up. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net ) ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Just learned about Mistery Meat Navigation
On 21.03.2012, at 00:16, C. Scott Ananian wrote: On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Gonzalo Odiard gonz...@laptop.org wrote: If you find non obvious icons, can report to try to improve. May be adults have problems with icons, but kids don't, just see a kid playing in any internet site. These icons become much more problematic on a touch screen, where there's no obvious way to get the text descriptions to pop up. --scott OTOH, on a web site, you just want to get results quickly, and then maybe never visit again. It's not worth learning what the icons mean, since they most likely are unique to that site. That's why using icons like in the video fails. However, that is different than the icons you use everyday. Those are worth learning. Of course, the learning must be made possible, and hopefully enjoyable. But the gut reaction of I as an adult can't figure it out at first glance, so it must be bad isn't quite appropriate. - Bert - ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
