Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
Bob, Joe, I avoid both butter and margarine by using coconut creme, ghee, etc. Organic, if possible. Joe, you can take an extra multi-mineral capsule to offset the leaching from the RO water. I use carbon-block filter followed by distillation; I take extra minerals. The thing is that if mercury, strontium, and cadmium are being leached out of one's body, that's great. Take a kelp capsule too to keep the trace minerals intact. And use sea salt. I use Real Salt (TM). Herbs can be standardized during the extraction process. Not to worry though as most herbs are much more gentle in action than prescription drugs. Herbs have been thoroughly studied and their effects are known. There are thousands of studies on herbs. Most have been used for thousands of year and probably a lot longer than that. Prescription drugs makers will find what they think is the herb's active ingredient then design a chemical analogue of that ingredient. Since this synthetic analogue is man-made it can be patented and thus be a money maker, with proper promotion. But oftentimes this new drug can act like a monkey wrench to a human's system, even after extensive testing for safety.Why? Because during testing, negatives results are ignored or downgraded. Besides contrived outcome testing, there is the issue of the singling out of one component of the herb and designating that as the active ingredient. This is just plain wrong thinking. Herbs work because of several, sometimes hundreds, of other allied chemical components of the herb. These helpers all work together in a synergistic fashion. Also, imo, the fact that herbs have been around for millions of years, along with humans and our ancestors, there could be some genetic factors which allow us to use these herbs successfully. But a synthetic analogue is unknown to the body and the liver will work overtime, trying package the drug for expulsion. This is why almost all prescription drugs are hard on the liver and can damage it. There are other problems as well. So, we end up with prescription drugs being the number three killer here in the USA! Why anyone would want to take these drugs? It could be because they're not aware of any other way or think that herbs are unsafe. But the fact is that it is prescription drugs which are really unsafe. We're told that they're safe, if taken properly, and yet people still die, lots of them. (There are herbals that're deadly, but they're well known and no one purports that they're safe.) Taking herbs, vitamins, supplements, essential oils, under direction of a naturopathic doctor is a far better way to go than using prescription drugs. Herbs like ginseng and ginkgo biloba are taken by millions of folks with no ill effects. The FDA and AMA are out to discredit alt medicine and have been doing their disinfo campaign for more than fifty years. They use statements similar to Bob's. Some interesting sites: Wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbal_medicine Organic strawberries stop cancer http://www.i-sis.org.uk/OSSCC.php St John's Wort better than Prozac http://www.herbs.org/current/sjwvsbestsellers.htm HerbMed Links http://www.herbmed.org/links.asp#Virtual%20Gardens American Herbal Pharmacopeia http://www.herbal-ahp.org/ Peace, D. Mindock Howdy Joe, Mike, et al Joe Street wrote: Hi Mike; There is a part of me ( the part I like to think is wise) that tends to trust what comes out of mother nature's laboratory much more than the industrial product. This is why I use butter not margarine. better the devil you know than the devil you don't know? (butter, saturated fat and cholesterol vs margarine, trans fats) This is why I prefer herbs over medicines most medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to accumulate statistically relevant data. The problems with herbs as I see it is two fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and secondly, dosage is unclear. Amounts of efficacious agents varies from species to species and even plant to plant depending on where/how it is grown. and organic foods over factory. agreed, with the exception of factory Organic ala recent spinach issue This voice is always whispering that the more raw something is, the closer it is to it's natural state, the better. This voice tells that the converse, the more refined anything is, the more goodness has been stripped away and the more unhealthy in terms of preservatives and traces of processing steps are left behind in the product. processing is relative. Cassava is dangerously poisonous without processing I, like some others, confound myself at times with doublethink on this front however. For example water purified by reverse osmosis definitely is free of VOC's and chlorine, flourine etc but so are the minerals removed and drinking highly purified water can leach minerals from the
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
Joe Street wrote: u well, 1 hr at $12.50/hr times 5 days a week times 48 weeks comes to $3000.00 unless my calulator is busted...it is a microsoft thingie after all. Assuming he dehydrates over the weekend and Christmas of course. Joe Ahh sheesh. Here, I tried to build a Very Simple Model. Key point, Very Simple. There are 24 hours in a day, everyone earns on a factor of 24, the unit under debate is one hour. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
Hey Mike, thanks for playing. Mike Weaver wrote: Q1. What is an hours labour worth in this community? 1 hour of a person's time. You're confusing the community obligations with work worth Hardly. Hauling water isn't a community obligation, it's a personal obligation. Keep the model simple. The only time that is up for modification is work time. In this Very Simple Model, if one person, (Keep it simple) doesn't haul water, they drop dead or something. If one is going to make 2 water hauls, one gives up an hour of worktime. Therefore an extra water haul is one less work hour. Come on, it's a simple model. FWIW - labor to cut grass is about 15.00 hour here in Arlington VA. Q2. Should the community consider bringing in cheap labour to haul their water? Depends. Does communal work bind the community together? It's not communal work. The key point being, some folks *might* be willing to trade some of their dollars in exchange for gaining a free hour to do something else, like Tivo survivor or something. Q3, Should the community levee a tax and use the tax to pay the cheap labour to haul the water? Towards what end? Umm, to gain an hour of free time. Q3.1 If so, at what rate should Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily be taxed? By whom? By Dinsdale the Hedgehog. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11
http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=9027371content_dir=ua_congressorg WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11 As we celebrate the 5th anniversary of Sept 11, more questions about what really happened that fateful day are surfacing. A businessman friend of mine who worked in the Twin Towers told me how everyone had to vacate their offices during innumerable fire drills months before Sept 11. These required they run to stairwells and wait for periods averaging 20 minutes. He recalls the bomb detecting dogs placed after the attack years ago were removed from then on. He is sure a demolition was planted then. Many claim the buildings collapsed due to the intense heat melting the steel. Please see the video documentary based on real footage and witnesss narration during that day mentioned below. One sees people standing in the top floors in gaping walls near the flames, still motioning about. If they were not burnt how can steel be melting? Many jumped to their deaths intact. Molten steel is thick and like lava, flows slowly. These buildings, after only 50 minutes of limited fires in the top floors, imploded in 9 seconds to the ground. Molten steel would have taken a long time to buckle 100 stories down. The nearby building 7 also imploded that same day although small flames entered it! Its owner admits giving OK to have it imploded. Building 7 held active FBI and Wall Street investigation documents of on going cases. Some had investigations of the bankrupt savings and Loans that robbed billions of many. Some of the Bush brothers were responsible for that economic mess. Video footage shows President Bush remains motionless for 20 minutes after he was notified again, this time, about the second twin tower crash. He sat there not interrupting the reading of grade school children. Why he did not react immediately? Why did all the rubble get sent immediately abroad, making sure surveillance GPS monitors tracked trucks delivery to ships, ordered by FEMA and approved by mayor Guliani? Should not that been kept for analysis of a crime scene? Why the black boxes with aircraft cockpit data did never appeared? Never have black boxes melted or disappeared in crashes. See below what former director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis under the Bush administration has to say about these details. When we review history, we remember how Bush had poor ratings, as many felt he had stolen the election. We know the Government, up to the last days prior Sept 11, catered Bin Laden. Is it conceivable that this administration along with Bin laden used these attacks as diversionary tactics for their own needs? How come Bin Laden has not been captured? By 2001, unlike in the Clinton years, Bin Laden was unquestionably involved in numerous terrorist attacks. Why was the Bin Laden family having safe airline passage out of the country on Sept 11, while everyone else could not fly at all? Why would we want war? Because it is a multi billion dollar industry for the gun and ammo business, and for the likes of Halliburton, who reconstruct destroyed countries. Why would we accuse Saddam of weapons of mass destruction and accuse him of causing the attacks of the world trade center? We needed an excuse for war, and his oil. He was the perfect scapegoat, and a reason for more turmoil, further distracting from the truth. Why did we not go all out to destroy Iraq? We have done a half baked job with insufficient troops, which have emboldened the Arab world. WHY? Because this protracts the war, keeping us distracted from our internal woes. Desert Storm taught a lesson to Bush Jr. When we pulled out, although peace ensued, we the people concentrated in internal US affairs, and voted Bush Sr. OUT. Should he have continued that war, we would have re-elected him. Now you see why Rumsfeld is in charge. They just want a boiling pot to keep power in the white house. When the truth is so ugly, denial ensues. When the Columbine school massacre took place, parents of the children who committed the murders were told about this, could not believe their children could cause such a heinous act. Same with some tragedies of immense proportions such as the twin towers. Many fear it is unpatriotic to question ones government. Let us remember our roots. If our founding fathers would not have question King George, we would still be under the British flag. Let us remember our national mantra: ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. It does not say to give up our freedom to speak out; it does not say only our government has the right to be above the local and international law. Why would we want to switch from King George to King Bush? That is what we would be doing if we did not question authority, when their powers have abused us. Our children are dying for a lie. Our
[Biofuel] Ranchers Decry Grass-Fed Beef Rule Plan
More hanky panky from a govagency that protects Big Ag instead of "we the people" and the small ranches and farms. Peace, D. Mindock = http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/09/03/financial/f124409D52.DTLhw=dietsn=003sc=737 Ranchers Decry Grass-Fed Beef Rule Plan By LIBBY QUAID, AP Food and Farm Writer Sunday, September 3, 2006 (09-03) 12:44 PDT WASHINGTON (AP) -- Meat-eaters usually assume a grass-fed steak came from cattle contentedly grazing for most of their lives on lush pastures, not crowded into feedlots. If the government has its way, the grass-fed label could be used to sell beef that didn't roam the range and ate more than just grass. The Agriculture Department has proposed a standard for grass-fed meat that doesn't say animals need pasture and that broadly defines grass to include things like leftovers from harvested crops. Critics say the proposal is so loose that it would let more conventional ranchers slap a grass-fed label on their beef, too. "In the eye of the consumer, grass-fed is tied to open pasture-raised animals, not confinement or feedlot animals," said Patricia Whisnant, a Missouri rancher who heads the American Grassfed Association. "In the consumer's eye, you're going to lose the integrity of what the term 'grass-fed' means." All beef cattle graze on grass at the beginning of their lives. The difference generally is that grass-fed beef herds graze in pastures, while conventional cattle spend the last three or four months of their lives being fattened with corn or other grains in feedlots. People buy grass-fed beef for many reasons: They want to avoid antibiotics commonly used in feedlots, they think it's healthier, or they like the idea of supporting local farms and ranches. Grass-fed beef is a leaner meat; fat tends to form around the muscle. With conventional corn-fed beef, the fat streaks the muscle in marble-like patterns. "When you eat steak that is corn-finished, there's a mouthfeel that you get specifically from the fat; it hangs there in the palate for quite awhile," said Thom Fox, the chef at Acme Chophouse in San Francisco and a member of the Chefs Collaborative. "Grass-fed beef tends to have a much quicker finish. The taste lasts for a few minutes and cleans itself off very fast," Fox said. Demand for grass-fed products is intense and producers are responding. By Whisnant's estimate, the number of farms has grown from about 40 seven years ago to around 1,000 today. With so many producers rushing into the market, the definition of grass-fed varies. Some meat is sold as grass-fed when grass is only part of the animal's diet. Confusion has resulted. A survey by the National Cattlemen's Beef Association found that half of consumers had heard of grass-fed beef, but only 28 percent believed it came from cows that grazed on grass their whole lives. Sixty percent thought the cows also ate other things, such as oats, corn, hay and alfalfa. "The awareness is there, but yet I think there is confusion," said Leah Wilkinson, food policy director for NCBA. "We want them to come out with something that won't be misleading to consumers." Producers who keep cattle on pasture began asking the Agriculture Department in the late 1990s to set standards to help sell their beef as truly grass-fed. They want to send clear marketing signals to consumers inundated by things like organic, natural, certified humane or hormone-free. The department has tried to come up with rules ever since, but it's a bureaucratic process that can take years. Officials have proposed standards twice now, in 2002 and again this year, that were greeted with protests from the industry. Before a deadline for written comments last month, the department was inundated with more than 17,000 responses to its proposal. The department is reluctant to regulate a cow's time spent grazing because some parts of the country might suffer weather extremes that stress pastures, said William Sessions, associate deputy administrator of the department's livestock and seed program. So officials provided leeway by proposing that only 99 percent, rather than 100 percent, of a cow's diet come from grass forage, and by defining forage more broadly to include things like leftover corn stalks from harvest and silage, which is fermented grasses and legumes. "With the geographic diversity found in the U.S., a farmer or rancher in Minnesota is going to have a little bit different grass-fed scheme than, say, one that's located in Alabama, in the South where year-round grazing is available," Sessions said. "What we tried to do with this grass-fed claim is make it where anyone in the U.S. that wanted to make this claim could," he said. Insisting on access to pasture could be covered by another standard, such as the department's rules for organic meat, Sessions said. But
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
Here, I tried to build a Very Simple Model. Key point, Very Simple. There are 24 hours in a day, everyone earns on a factor of 24, the unit under debate is one hour. Paid by whom? They are paid even for sleeping? - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 7:42 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please. Joe Street wrote: u well, 1 hr at $12.50/hr times 5 days a week times 48 weeks comes to $3000.00 unless my calulator is busted...it is a microsoft thingie after all. Assuming he dehydrates over the weekend and Christmas of course. Joe Ahh sheesh. Here, I tried to build a Very Simple Model. Key point, Very Simple. There are 24 hours in a day, everyone earns on a factor of 24, the unit under debate is one hour. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] What do I do now?
I've finally managed to get a diesel vehicle, although it is an older one. It is a 1983 Chevy C10 Scottsdale diesel. I would like to use biodiesel in it since I know how and hae used it (biodiesel) in other applications but my understanding is that I have to make some modifications (i.e. replace the rubber parts with viton). Has anyone converted this type of truck before? I'm don't know where all the rubber parts are on this engine and I was hoping there was someone out there with experience who could give me some guidance. Can someone help me? I want to stop using dino-diesel as soon as possible! Thanks, Bobby Clark ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
bob allen wrote: snip most medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to accumulate statistically relevant data. The problems with herbs as I see it is two fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and secondly, dosage is unclear. Amounts of efficacious agents varies from species to species and even plant to plant depending on where/how it is grown. Well the way I see it is that someone tried to isolate a single substance within a plant which seemed to have the desired effect. Then they set out in earnest to synthesize the chemical. ( follow the money eh?) There are two problems here. First in the synthesis process many kinds of unhealthy substances may be involved in the chemical synthesis which can remain in trace amounts despite efforts to eliminate them. Second and perhaps more important is what is left out. It is a bold and arrogant assumption that the theraputic effect of a herb is due soley to an isolated compound. Plants contain many compounds and they can and do work synergistically when the whole plant is consumed. Yes this is less scientific in the strict sense but I am not married to science because I find that it cuts me off from a whole realm of truth which lies just outside of the bounds of wehat science can explain. Science does not have all the answersyet. as far as I am aware there is no such thing as unnatural salt. Well yeah salt is an inorganic compound and as such it just is what it is. Or is it? Where was it precipitated and in the presence of what else which will come out in the precipitate? As you know, chemicals are never pure. It is these traces I am curious about. ( And I haven't done my homework here so I'm open for blasting about that...granted) What else is in table salt vs sea salt and how much? These are the questions that are of interest to me in this discussion, of course all salt is natural, so is feldspar, and so are gamma rays for that matter and water is a deadly asphyxiant one could say, also natural. Refined sugar is pure right? But what is it bleached with and what does that do to it, and what of the stuff which is removed? White flour sure looks nice and works great for pie crusts but how much of the nutrition of the grain remains in it after refining? And again what does the bleaching do? White rice vs brown rice, nutrition, ditto. This is the line of thinking I am applying to the question of sea salt vs refined salt, not whether NaCl is natural or not. Perhaps there are cases where it is naive to just trust what nature has provided for us and it is more harmful than the carefully controlled laboratory product and maybe there are traces of toxic heavy metals in sea salt that can accumulate and do you in. I don't know because I haven't checked but I guess it's time that I did! I still feel safe though with the generality which Darryl recently posted about his cynicism and the rule of thumb which is " follow the money" and what that means in terms of our food supply and what people will do or what they are willing to overlook in the name of profit. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] What do I do now?
The biggest (or first) problems tend to be the injector return lines, possibly because they are exposed to hot biodiesel, not just biodiesel. If you can, replace these as a preventative. I don't know if this engine has rubber or steel return lines -- my mitsubishi has steel which prevents this problem. Everything else, I would replace as you notice leaks (take a good look at everything each time you fill up). Possible problem areas are: fuel supply and return lines, injector pump seals (pretty involved to replace these), fuel filter sealing gaskets (shouldn't be a problem, as you'll be putting plenty of new filters on it in the first few months), fuel tank filler neck, external lift pump if it has one... I have a friend who has a '78 chevy pickup with the diesel, and a '81 VW pickup, and he's had to replace a bit on the VW, but I haven't heard of him claiming any problems on the chevy. He did transplant the engine into the chevy from a '86, so the engine is newer, and when replacing the gas engine, I imagine he replaced alot of the fuel lines and such. Except for the shaft seal in the injector pump, none of the possible leaks are really catastrophic -- you'll see the leaking fuel well before it stops it from running. Good luck ZOn 9/19/06, Bobby Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've finally managed to get a diesel vehicle, although it is an older one.It is a 1983 Chevy C10 Scottsdale diesel. I would like to use biodiesel init since I know how and hae used it (biodiesel) in other applications but my understanding is that I have to make some modifications (i.e. replace therubber parts with viton). Has anyone converted this type of truck before?I'm don't know where all the rubber parts are on this engine and I was hoping there was someone out there with experience who could give me someguidance. Can someone help me? I want to stop using dino-diesel as soon aspossible!Thanks,Bobby Clark___ Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11
D. Mindock wrote: http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=9027371content_dir=ua_congressorg WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11 As we celebrate the 5th anniversary of Sept 11, more questions about what really happened that fateful day are surfacing. A businessman friend of mine who worked in the Twin Towers told me how everyone had to vacate their offices during innumerable fire drills months before Sept 11. These required they run to stairwells and wait for periods averaging 20 minutes. He recalls the bomb detecting dogs placed after the attack years ago were removed from then on. He is sure a demolition was planted then. Yeah right. Let me guess, it was all the fumes from the ANFO corroding his tin foil hat that alerted him!!! Many claim the buildings collapsed due Do any of these people have the letters B.Eng(Civil) after their name? If not then they are not Civil Engineers and then definitely not Structural Engineers - you graduate from Uni with a degree in Civil Engineering and then over the years due to experience and specialisation become a Structural Engineer - Oh look, that's what I did hence I'm a Structural Engineer. to the intense heat melting the steel. Please see the video WHAT UTTER CRAP. One of the main causes of failure was that the steel that comprised the floor trusses elongated due to heating. It didn't melt, the heat caused its tensile strength to reduce until the floor trusses failed causing lateral forces on the core which itself was weakened by the heat, and also had a good number of floors sitting above it. With the load from the floors above, the lateral forces from the floor trusses and its columns weakened by heat it's no wonder the areas around the impact points failed causing the collapse. And no the building was not designed to withstand the impact of a plane. The buildings were designed for wind loads etc, the usual loadings that Structural Engineers worry about and then as an AFTERTHOUGHT the building was checked to see how it would go up against a plane - the case of the Empire State Building being hit be a Bomber in WW2 being the prior art. It was found that it should withstand the impact of a 707 going slowly with an almost empty fuel load - a plane lost in the fog looking for Kennedy Airport. The weapons on the day were 767's. The difference in kinetic energy between the 707 scenario and what actually happened is about 10 times greater in favour of the 767, which also had a close to full fuel load. Once again no need for explosives, the planes had enough energy themselves. Talking of the kinetic energy of the planes, that's why the fire protection on the steel didn't work. It had basically shattered due to the impacts of the planes with the buildings. To claim that the destruction of the WTC towers was the work of anything other than a situation that no sane Structural Engineer could ever conceive and hence design for is the work of someone with a few roo's loose in the top paddock. If you are skilled in the field of Structures, it failure, unfortunately, makes sense. documentary based on real footage and witness's narration during that day mentioned below. One sees people standing in the top floors in gaping walls near the flames, still motioning about. If they were not burnt how can steel be melting? Many jumped to their deaths intact. It didn't melt. Repeat after me, it didn't melt Molten steel is thick and like lava, flows slowly. These buildings, No it isn't. It can be as viscous as water. Ever been to a blast furnace? after only 50 minutes of limited fires in the top floors, imploded in 9 seconds to the ground. Molten steel would have taken a long time to buckle 100 stories down. The nearby building 7 also imploded that buckle down 100 stories WTF? same day although small flames entered it! Its owner admits giving OK to have it imploded. Building 7 held active FBI and Wall Street investigation documents of on going cases. Some had investigations of [SNIP] . ... .. . I studied Civil Engineering with a major in Structures and Analysis not Medicine with a major in Psychiatry so I'll leave the reader to make their own judgements on the rest of this. Regards, Andrew Lowe B.Eng(Civil) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] I Don't Know (was amazing himalayan salt)
Mike and Joe, I don't know either. It seems that we do what we do and then what we do becomes part of the fabric of what we are. Gustlrecently stated: "It is the content of the heart which counts the most I think but we don't have any formal tests for that but the heart is evidenced by our actions and words." One of my teachers had two small posters up in the classroom: "Be careful of your opinions. They can be traps."and "Listen, read, learn with an open mind. Act with goodness in your heart." There are so many things we'll never know for sure. But if we continue to learn with open minds and act with goodness in our hearts I think we can accept where the chips fall. 1. To vaccinate or not? Freedom to choose. If vaccines work then the vaccinated have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated. Personally, I don't know. 2. Sea salt vs. Common table salt: Since life evolved in the seas it would stand to reason that the minerals in sea water would have structural/functional importance to living things. We are familiar with iron in hemoglobin, and iodine in thyroxine. There are a number of mineral cofactors needed for enzymes to function properly. Combine this with the depletion of micronutrients from much of our farmland and we have an interesting argument for sea vs table salt. Salt from ancient seas that has risen to mountain tops may have less pollutants recently introduced to the environment. Personally, I don't know, but am now in the market for some sea salt. I spent an hour or two yesterday turning about a ton of compost. All the while I was turning over thoughts from your posts. My neighbor pulled up in his truck and commented: "I've never seen anybody smiling like that while forking horseshit." sorry, but that's what he calls my compost. "I don't know." In a world where everybody seems to know what's best for me, it was such a refreshing phrase. Cheers, I hope today is good to you. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt Hi Mike;There is a part of me ( the part I like to think is wise) that tends to trust what comes out of mother nature's laboratory much more than the industrial product. This is why I use butter not margarine. This is why I prefer herbs over medicines and organic foods over factory. This voice is always whispering that the more raw something is, the closer it is to it's natural state, the better. This voice tells that the converse, the more refined anything is, the more goodness has been stripped away and the more unhealthy in terms of preservatives and traces of processing steps are left behind in the product. I, like some others, confound myself at times with doublethink on this front however. For example water purified by reverse osmosis definitely is free of VOC's and chlorine, flourine etc but so are the minerals removed and drinking highly purified water can leach minerals from the body. So I stuggle to understand where the correct balance is at times. Bottled spring water can contain higher than the municipal level of heavy metals. I have wondered about natural salt deposits in this regard although I admit I have been lazy about doing my homework and looking for an assay on alternative salt products. I was told that iodine was added to salt because there were many more cases of thyroid problems in the population before this was done (unless this is disinformation and I am to learn that it aint so and it was just a way to unload iodine from some excess industrial process on an unsuspecting population vis the flouride scene with toothpaste and city water) It is often hard to know who or what to believe unless it is right in your area of knowledge. All I can hope to do is fight laziness and keep looking for information. This list is a goldmine in this regard and I can never give enough thanks for all I have learned from all the contibuting members here.BTW the sea salt I use doesn't pour well. I regard this as encouraging. What have 'they' done to regular table salt to make it run so easily hmmm? I wonder.JoeMK DuPree wrote: Hi Bob and List...I don't know. But I wish I could know all the time what is right and what is wrong,what is on one side and what is on another, whether or not there really is one side or another, but I don't know, the lines between this and that oftentimes become obscure. Maybe we should vaccinate, maybe we shouldn't. Maybe hell is freezing over, maybe it isn't. I don't know. I do know this, however, I have no one to blame but myself. I'm not sure I can say the same for anyone else, because it's really none of my business, but this is true for me--I have no one to blame but myself.And it is this that
Re: [Biofuel] I Don't Know (was amazing himalayan salt)
Tom...:)Thank you! One good smile deserves another.:)) Smile on, brother man, and fork that horseshit!!! LOLwonderful post, but then, "I don't know." :) Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] I Don't Know (was amazing himalayan salt) Mike and Joe, I don't know either. It seems that we do what we do and then what we do becomes part of the fabric of what we are. Gustlrecently stated: "It is the content of the heart which counts the most I think but we don't have any formal tests for that but the heart is evidenced by our actions and words." One of my teachers had two small posters up in the classroom: "Be careful of your opinions. They can be traps."and "Listen, read, learn with an open mind. Act with goodness in your heart." There are so many things we'll never know for sure. But if we continue to learn with open minds and act with goodness in our hearts I think we can accept where the chips fall. 1. To vaccinate or not? Freedom to choose. If vaccines work then the vaccinated have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated. Personally, I don't know. 2. Sea salt vs. Common table salt: Since life evolved in the seas it would stand to reason that the minerals in sea water would have structural/functional importance to living things. We are familiar with iron in hemoglobin, and iodine in thyroxine. There are a number of mineral cofactors needed for enzymes to function properly. Combine this with the depletion of micronutrients from much of our farmland and we have an interesting argument for sea vs table salt. Salt from ancient seas that has risen to mountain tops may have less pollutants recently introduced to the environment. Personally, I don't know, but am now in the market for some sea salt. I spent an hour or two yesterday turning about a ton of compost. All the while I was turning over thoughts from your posts. My neighbor pulled up in his truck and commented: "I've never seen anybody smiling like that while forking horseshit." sorry, but that's what he calls my compost. "I don't know." In a world where everybody seems to know what's best for me, it was such a refreshing phrase. Cheers, I hope today is good to you. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, September 18, 2006 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt Hi Mike;There is a part of me ( the part I like to think is wise) that tends to trust what comes out of mother nature's laboratory much more than the industrial product. This is why I use butter not margarine. This is why I prefer herbs over medicines and organic foods over factory. This voice is always whispering that the more raw something is, the closer it is to it's natural state, the better. This voice tells that the converse, the more refined anything is, the more goodness has been stripped away and the more unhealthy in terms of preservatives and traces of processing steps are left behind in the product. I, like some others, confound myself at times with doublethink on this front however. For example water purified by reverse osmosis definitely is free of VOC's and chlorine, flourine etc but so are the minerals removed and drinking highly purified water can leach minerals from the body. So I stuggle to understand where the correct balance is at times. Bottled spring water can contain higher than the municipal level of heavy metals. I have wondered about natural salt deposits in this regard although I admit I have been lazy about doing my homework and looking for an assay on alternative salt products. I was told that iodine was added to salt because there were many more cases of thyroid problems in the population before this was done (unless this is disinformation and I am to learn that it aint so and it was just a way to unload iodine from some excess industrial process on an unsuspecting population vis the flouride scene with toothpaste and city water) It is often hard to know who or what to believe unless it is right in your area of knowledge. All I can hope to do is fight laziness and keep looking for information. This list is a goldmine in this regard and I can never give enough thanks for all I have learned from all the contibuting members here.BTW the sea salt I use doesn't pour well. I regard this as encouraging. What have 'they' done to regular table salt to make it run so easily hmmm? I wonder.JoeMK DuPree wrote: Hi Bob and List...I don't know. But I wish I could know all
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
On Monday, September 18, 2006 1:16 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:16:21 -0400 From: Chip Mefford To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please. Spent a lot of hours behind the wheel these last few weeks. Driving from the 'services' economy of the greater mid-atlantic Washington DC USA region, through rural WV, and Pa, up through industrialized and agricultural southern Canada, down through agricultural and tourist economy of northern Michigan/UP... A model came to mind. A Very Simple Economic Model. - Albert, the blacksmith. Earns the equiv of $24,000 US a year plying his trade. Beverly, the mortgage banker. Earns the equiv of $240,000 US a year, plying her trade. Charles, the surgeon, Earns the equiv of $2.400,000 US a year plying his trade Emily, the CEO, Earns the equiv of $24,000,000 US a year plying her trade. In this community, folks work 8 hours a day to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community, folks work 5 days a week to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community, folks work 48 weeks a year to fulfill their trade obligations, no more, no less. In this community where Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily live, it takes 1 hour to go the communal well, and draw the water needed for the day, and haul it back to their respective domiciles. --- Q1. What is an hours labour worth in this community? The worth of the water hour is the same to all. While others may be able to pay someone else to fetch the water, it still takes an hour and it still provides the same benefit. Q2. Should the community consider bringing in cheap labour to haul their water? No, bringing in a water hauler will not change the structure only increase the cost (even if it is cheap labor). Q3, Should the community levee a tax and use the tax to pay the cheap labour to haul the water? Same as above, just makes the cost distributed through a political structure. Q3.1 If so, at what rate should Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily be taxed? Emily would call for a flat tax, citing that she uses the same amount of water as everyone else. The others would argue a progressive tax. Neither of which is ideal. Discussion. The simple analysis, in my opinion, would not look at the water but look at the disparate nature of the economic structure... If they all earned the same or if all but one earned the same the water equation would not change. Thus, the water structure isn't a problem, it diverts attention from the problem. What is this hour devoted to drawing water worth? Since there are 24 hours in the day, and all the hours are spoken for, doing the regular stuff, like raising kids, cleaning house, working, fiddling about, and occasionally watching NFL or world cup rallye, the only reason to do offload the hauling of water duty would be to gain an extra hour of free time. So, to Albert, an hour of free time is essentially worth $1000 over a year. To Beverly, $10,000, to Charles $100,000 and to Emily $1,000,000. Discussion How does the Nash Equilibrium bear on this scenario? - Somewhere, I'm sure this Very Simple Model is already addressed. If someone could point me to a paper, I'd greatly appreciate it. Comments please. thanks. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
Chip; Ok big deal. I didn't mean to be anal about the numbers, and now I realize the accuracy of the numbers is not really important to the discussion. The relative proportions of the earnings are still the same and the big questions are still unanswered and I think it will be impossible to answer them unless we had a common perspective on what it means to be a member of the society and how that society is expected to work. What is it about Emily that makes her worth 24 megabucks a year? Or should I be asking, what is it about the other members of her society that makes them believe they should support her making that much by being part of the machine which is earning that for her? Especially if that machine is unsustainable. For sure there are people of different levels of capability in terms of what they can offer to the rest of the society, take the surgeon for example. We are so indoctrinated into the idea that we should be compensated in proportion to what our capabilities are, that we cannot see it any other way in our society so these questions seem real. Is it realistic to look at it from a perspective of time equals money? Does this mean that if Emily spends 3.6 seconds with the bucket she has made the same contribution to her community as Albert spending a full hour with it? It really depends on what Emily can be up to during that time which you have valued 1000 times more. I wouldn't want to be lying somewhere with a severed artery waiting 36 seconds for Charlie to come back from his water duties. That could mean my life. How we assign value to things is pivotal to what our society is and how it works, and what we expect when we live in it. Clearly currency has solved some of the problems that plagued a barter type system but valuing everything in terms of dollar doesn't work very well either IMHO. It's hard to imagine reorganizing on some other principle at this stage though. I don't know that alternatives which have worked well for small isolated societies (I don't want to use the word primitive) could work on a larger scale but certainly our 'first' world view could do with a little maturing. So now have a look at Q1 -Q3.1 and notice that the questions are framed within this paradigm of value which is already biased toward a subset of answers and precludes other ideas which the paradigm does not even allow. Sorry I didn't answer any of them but I'm not sure they are the right questions to be asking. I'm not really sure that a person is entitled to more than they need but ask a bunch of people to define need. LOL. Pyrimidal type structures require a lot of crap at the bottom to serve as a foundation for the soaring hights of the pinnacle. It sucks if you ask me. Good luck convincing the average joe to soar just for the joy of soaring or do the dishes just for the dishes. We are conditioned and indoctrinated to see the world through gain coloured glasses. It suits our evil human nature. That's why we're all sinners don't you know. ROFL. I do believe it can be different but what it will take to bring about the change remains to be seen. I don't think you will solve it by reorganizing the money. Joe Chip Mefford wrote: Joe Street wrote: u well, 1 hr at $12.50/hr times 5 days a week times 48 weeks comes to $3000.00 unless my calulator is busted...it is a microsoft thingie after all. Assuming he dehydrates over the weekend and Christmas of course. Joe Ahh sheesh. Here, I tried to build a Very Simple Model. Key point, Very Simple. There are 24 hours in a day, everyone earns on a factor of 24, the unit under debate is one hour. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11
Andrew Lowe wrote: WHAT UTTER CRAP. One of the main causes of failure was that the steel that comprised the floor trusses elongated due to heating. It didn't melt, the heat caused its tensile strength to reduce until the floor trusses failed causing lateral forces on the core which itself was weakened by the heat, and also had a good number of floors sitting above it. With the load from the floors above, the lateral forces from the floor trusses and its columns weakened by heat it's no wonder the areas around the impact points failed causing the collapse. I used to burn wood to heat my home during the winter. There was a steel baffle at the top of my stove that warped after I began burning hardwood. Steel does not have to melt in order to lose its structural integrity, and the added mass of collapsing floors above the weakened steel easily explains the collapse of the World Trade Center towers. I've looked at the accusations concerning demolition and simply don't buy the theory. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
Joe Street wrote: bob allen wrote: snip most medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to accumulate statistically relevant data. The problems with herbs as I see it is two fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and secondly, dosage is unclear. Amounts of efficacious agents varies from species to species and even plant to plant depending on where/how it is grown. Well the way I see it is that someone tried to isolate a single substance within a plant which seemed to have the desired effect. Then they set out in earnest to synthesize the chemical. ( follow the money eh?) not to be chary, but you have a problem with someone earning a living? There are two problems here. First in the synthesis process many kinds of unhealthy substances may be involved in the chemical synthesis which can remain in trace amounts despite efforts to eliminate them. I only know of one example in the last couple of decades where an impurity in a synthetic compound was known to have adverse health effects. Way back when, it became popular to take L-tryptophan as a sleep aid (I don't think there ever was any proof of efficacy, but that doesn't seem to matter to a lot of folks). Anyway a Japanese company produced the tryptophan via a bacterial synthesis. The workup stage introduced an impurity that killed a couple of people. An admittedly bad, but rare occurance. Conversely, I know of several recent examples of substances sold as natural herbs, balms, etc which are unintentionally or intentionally full of impurities ranging from heavy metals, to pesticides, to steroids. http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=221548 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1480482 http://www.mothernature.com/Library/Bookshelf/Books/15/109.cfm Second and perhaps more important is what is left out. It is a bold and arrogant assumption that the theraputic effect of a herb is due soley to an isolated compound. gee I wouldn't think it so arrogant Plants contain many compounds and they can and do work synergistically when the whole plant is consumed. the problem is how do you prove it. Yes this is less scientific in the strict sense but I am not married to science because I find that it cuts me off from a whole realm of truth which lies just outside of the bounds of wehat science can explain. If you can't explain it with scrupulous examination of reproduceable results, then how do you know it is real? There seems to be a real misuse of what the word science means. It is nothing more nor less than a process of gathering data which can be reproduced. Science does not have all the answersyet. of course not, but the only other insight I can see is mysticism. as far as I am aware there is no such thing as unnatural salt. Well yeah salt is an inorganic compound and as such it just is what it is. Or is it? Where was it precipitated and in the presence of what else which will come out in the precipitate? As you know, chemicals are never pure. that is as silly a statement as my unnatural salt (which was my intent). Everything is pure, nothing is pure, depending on degree. I will go with precise analytical procedures any day over expectations of purity which have no basis. Surely you apply scientific principles when producing biodiesel don't you? It is these traces I am curious about. ( And I haven't done my homework here so I'm open for blasting about that...granted) What else is in table salt vs sea salt and how much? generally very, very little. a few trace minerals like magnesium and manganese, which are picked in a decent diet. My point is you don't need to spend a bundle on exotic salt. the little difference they provide is lost in the backgound of a normal diet. These are the questions that are of interest to me in this discussion, of course all salt is natural, so is feldspar, and so are gamma rays for that matter and water is a deadly asphyxiant one could say, also natural. Refined sugar is pure right? But what is it bleached with and what does that do to it, and what of the stuff which is removed? White flour sure looks nice and works great for pie crusts but how much of the nutrition lets be careful of terminology here. Nutrition is somewhat vague. White flour has lots of calories, but none of the vitamins and minerals and fiber contained in the bran fraction. That is why white flour is fortified. that is what wonder bread used to advertise: builds strong bodies 8(12) different ways.- an admittedly ironic way of saying that the fda made them put vitamins and mineral back in the flour. of the grain remains in it after refining? And again what does the bleaching do? White rice vs brown rice, nutrition, ditto. This is the line of thinking I am applying to the
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
Joe Street wrote: Chip; Ok big deal. I didn't mean to be anal about the numbers, and now I realize the accuracy of the numbers is not really important to the discussion. BIG SNIP . I don't think you will solve it by reorganizing the money. Joe Excellent! Now *THATS* what I call a comment! Thanks for the input. Some of my thoughts on this Very Simple Model. One thought, everyone's time is worth the same. Albert values his life just as much as Emily, as do Beverly and Charles. An hour has no intrinsic value, it's just how they spend their days. Before Enlightenment; Chop wood, Carry water. After Enlightenment; Chop wood, Carry water. Another thought, everyone's time is valued very differently, across our powers of 10 monetary reward for services rendered. Carrying water is a big waste of otherwise productive time. Should bring in cheap labour to do the job. A flat tax is called for. Albert chafes, I can carry my own weight (water), and this tax is too much on my quite limited financial resources. Emily is quite content. A scheduled tax is called for. Emily chafes, Albert only has to pay X, so I should only have to pay X. After all, an hour is an hour is an hour Never mind that Emily's billable hours scale at one thousand times what Albert's are. In one regard, Emily receives a benefit equal to one thousand times the benefit that Albert receives. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
Do all households use the same amount of water? If not, what limits are placed on how much water a household can use in a day? - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please. DHAJOGLO wrote: On Monday, September 18, 2006 1:16 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:16:21 -0400 From: Chip Mefford To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please. Spent a lot of hours behind the wheel these last few weeks. SNIP SNIP SNIP Q1. What is an hours labour worth in this community? The worth of the water hour is the same to all. While others may be able to pay someone else to fetch the water, it still takes an hour and it still provides the same benefit. Good point. Thanks Q2. Should the community consider bringing in cheap labour to haul their water? No, bringing in a water hauler will not change the structure only increase the cost (even if it is cheap labor). Nice. I like it. I nominate you as my representative! Q3, Should the community levee a tax and use the tax to pay the cheap labour to haul the water? Same as above, just makes the cost distributed through a political structure. Q3.1 If so, at what rate should Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily be taxed? Emily would call for a flat tax, citing that she uses the same amount of water as everyone else. The others would argue a progressive tax. Neither of which is ideal. Yeah, I should actually sit down and try to plug Nash into this. Thanks for playing! good comments! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please.
DHAJOGLO wrote: On Monday, September 18, 2006 1:16 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:16:21 -0400 From: Chip Mefford To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] socialism, taxes, economics, comments please. Spent a lot of hours behind the wheel these last few weeks. SNIP SNIP SNIP Q1. What is an hours labour worth in this community? The worth of the water hour is the same to all. While others may be able to pay someone else to fetch the water, it still takes an hour and it still provides the same benefit. Good point. Thanks Q2. Should the community consider bringing in cheap labour to haul their water? No, bringing in a water hauler will not change the structure only increase the cost (even if it is cheap labor). Nice. I like it. I nominate you as my representative! Q3, Should the community levee a tax and use the tax to pay the cheap labour to haul the water? Same as above, just makes the cost distributed through a political structure. Q3.1 If so, at what rate should Albert, Beverly, Charles and Emily be taxed? Emily would call for a flat tax, citing that she uses the same amount of water as everyone else. The others would argue a progressive tax. Neither of which is ideal. Yeah, I should actually sit down and try to plug Nash into this. Thanks for playing! good comments! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Researchers uncover a secret of Black Death
http://www.physorg.com/printnews.php?newsid=77811326 9/18/2006 11:45 PM Researchers Uncover a Secret of the Black Death Yersinia pestis, the bacteria that causes plague, is a sneaky little intruder with a remarkable ability to evade the bodys immune system. Upon entering an organism, Y. pestis employs a variety of strategies to slip below the radar of the innate immune responsethe bodys front line of defense against invading pathogensand in many cases kills the host before its more specific antibacterial response can develop. It is this stealth and virulence that has made plague one of the most feared diseases in human history, blamed for more than 200 million deaths. While human cases of plague in the United States are now rare, a few thousands worldwide are infected each year and with the potential of intentional misuse of Y. pestis, the efforts to develop better treatments and a vaccine are now no less important than they were when the bacterium was first identified. Researchers at the University of Massachusetts Medical School have made a significant breakthrough in the field, modifying Y. pestis with a gene found in another commonly known bacterium, effectively rendering it unable to cause plague. In Virulence factors of Yersinia pestis are overcome by a strong LPS response, to be published in the October issue of Nature Immunology, Egil Lien, PhD, assistant professor of medicine and molecular genetics microbiology, Jon D. Goguen, PhD, associate professor of molecular genetics and microbiology, graduate student Sara Montminy and colleagues, also describe the effectiveness of the modified bacteria as a vaccine. Innate immunitythe precursor to the adaptive immune system in mammalsacts as the first line of defense against a range of pathogens. Prior to the adaptive immune response that involves the bodys production of antibodies that precisely target and combat the invader, the innate immune system reacts immediately upon infection. Recent research has described an important class of sensor molecules, collectively known as Toll-like receptors (TLRs) that recognize pathogens right away, activating the critical signaling pathways that stimulate this initial immune response. Activation of the TLRs also improves the adaptive immune response; in fact, Print the story http://www.physorg.com/printnews.php?newsid=77811326 2 of 3 9/18/2006 11:45 PM many vaccines include ingredients known as adjuvants that stimulate the innate immune response. Intriguingly, the bacteria Y. pestis has an unusual temperature-dependent ability to evade this system. Lipopolysaccharide, or LPS, is a major component of the membrane of this type of bacteria, contributing to structural integrity but also typically provoking a strong response from the immune system. When at human body temperature (37ºC), Y. pestis produces an LPS with a poor ability to activate TLR4, one of the major mammalian innate immunity toll-like receptors; at lower temperatures, for example that of a flea that transmits the disease (26º), the LPS produced was distinctly more potent and thus triggered TLR4. Recognizing that this difference was not found in E. coli, a common bacterium with some similarities to Y. pestis, Lien identified an E. coli gene that was important for the production of LPS but that was missing in Y. pestis. Using this gene to generate new strains of Y. pestis, researchers produced Y. pestis strains that were recognized much more easily by innate immunity and TLR4 at both temperatures. Importantly, the investigators found that the new strains were unable to cause plague and mortality in normal mice; the strains were at least a million times less virulent than the wild type bacteria. Our findings describe one of the secrets of the Black Death, Lien said. These results suggest that the production of surface lipids with poor ability to activate innate immunity is essential for Y. pestis to be so deadly, and, in fact, for the ability of the bacteria to cause plague. We expect this strategy to also be important for various other human bacterial pathogens. This result is quite surprising, in part because plague research has focused on many active things that the bacteria do to protect themselves from host defenses, including injecting toxins directly into cells of the immune system that try to engulf them," notes Goguen. Apparently all of this is useless unless the bugs can also hide from TLR4. Stealth is important. Significantly, Lien and colleagues also determined that these new harmless strains of Y. pestis could serve as vaccines. After vaccinating mice with the modified strain of Y. pestis, the Print the story http://www.physorg.com/printnews.php?newsid=77811326 3 of 3 9/18/2006 11:45 PM investigators re-introduced the virulent strain after 30 days and found that all of the animals were protected from developing plague. These findings show
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
Hi Bob; Well I don't mean to argue this too much but what bugs me is that although I don't have a problem with a scientist or a chemist making a living, it disturbs me that our society is geared towards and so dominated by profit. When this becomes the paramount concern then all manner of unhealthy things can happen. Especially disturbing when it comes to foods and medicines. This I think underlies the recent discussion about vaccines which I understand you advocate. You are right unscrupulous pursuit of coin can work for anyone. It can work for the big pharmaceutical corporation or a small time entrepreneur. Health trends become fads and where there is a fad there is someone making a huge profit. I am not assuming one has any more ethics than the other. I do feel it is arrogant to make assumptions about something we don't fully understand ( because you have a need to simplify it- to get it to market perhaps?) and then bandy it about as if it is scientific and the implications that follow from most people's faith in that word, the association with science and some sense of truth are unsettling. But this is what engineers are taught to do, (and maybe scientists too? ) they are told to break problems down, to simplify and approximate. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a 4th year or even a grad student act shocked and confused when a second or third order approximation didn't seem to cut it where the rubber meets the road in the real world. In the process of doing what they are taught they somehow lose sight of the stuff they decide is irrelevant and act as if it doesn't even exist. How many research papers are guilty of this? I work in a university where the validity of scientific enquiry is being undermined and erroded every day by commercial, and economic and political concerns. Nobody does basic research anymore and there is very little chance anyone will do research which is critical of an idea which stands to be profitable. Science which was once the great liberator has become prostitute to economics through the vice of technology. I do have a problem with that. Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: bob allen wrote: snip most medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to accumulate statistically relevant data. The problems with herbs as I see it is two fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and secondly, dosage is unclear. Amounts of efficacious agents varies from species to species and even plant to plant depending on where/how it is grown. Well the way I see it is that someone tried to isolate a single substance within a plant which seemed to have the desired effect. Then they set out in earnest to synthesize the chemical. ( follow the money eh?) not to be chary, but you have a problem with someone earning a living? There are two problems here. First in the synthesis process many kinds of unhealthy substances may be involved in the chemical synthesis which can remain in trace amounts despite efforts to eliminate them. I only know of one example in the last couple of decades where an impurity in a synthetic compound was known to have adverse health effects. Way back when, it became popular to take L-tryptophan as a sleep aid (I don't think there ever was any proof of efficacy, but that doesn't seem to matter to a lot of folks). Anyway a Japanese company produced the tryptophan via a bacterial synthesis. The workup stage introduced an impurity that killed a couple of people. An admittedly bad, but rare occurance. Conversely, I know of several recent examples of substances sold as natural herbs, balms, etc which are unintentionally or intentionally full of impurities ranging from heavy metals, to pesticides, to steroids. http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=221548 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1480482 http://www.mothernature.com/Library/Bookshelf/Books/15/109.cfm Second and perhaps more important is what is left out. It is a bold and arrogant assumption that the theraputic effect of a herb is due soley to an isolated compound. gee I wouldn't think it so arrogant Plants contain many compounds and they can and do work synergistically when the whole plant is consumed. the problem is how do you prove it. Yes this is less scientific in the strict sense but I am not married to science because I find that it cuts me off from a whole realm of truth which lies just outside of the bounds of wehat science can explain. If you can't explain it with scrupulous examination of reproduceable results, then how do you know it is real? There seems to be a real misuse of what the word science means. It is nothing more nor less than a process of gathering data which can be reproduced.
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
There's nothing wrong with profit, but what the market thinks is profit is not always the whole story. Markets need the help of a disciplined social framework, otherwise they will lie. The discipline can be imposed through suitable taxes. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Tue, 19 Sep 2006, Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; Well I don't mean to argue this too much but what bugs me is that although I don't have a problem with a scientist or a chemist making a living, it disturbs me that our society is geared towards and so dominated by profit. [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; Well I don't mean to argue this too much but what bugs me is that although I don't have a problem with a scientist or a chemist making a living, it disturbs me that our society is geared towards and so dominated by profit. like mercola selling salt at 2 bucks an ounce? When this becomes the paramount concern then all manner of unhealthy things can happen. Especially disturbing when it comes to foods and medicines. did you look at the claims made to promote the sale of the Himalayan salt? they are preposterous This I think underlies the recent discussion about vaccines which I understand you advocate. You are right unscrupulous pursuit of coin can work for anyone. It can work for the big pharmaceutical corporation or a small time entrepreneur. agreed Health trends become fads and where there is a fad there is someone making a huge profit. I am not assuming one has any more ethics than the other. I do feel it is arrogant to make assumptions about something we don't fully understand ( because you have a need to simplify it- to get it to market perhaps?) and then bandy it about as if it is scientific and the implications that follow from most people's faith in that word, the association with science and some sense of truth are unsettling. But this is what engineers are taught to do, (and maybe scientists too? ) they are told to break problems down, to simplify and approximate. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a 4th year or even a grad student act shocked and confused when a second or third order approximation didn't seem to cut it where the rubber meets the road in the real world. In the process of doing what they are taught they somehow lose sight of the stuff they decide is irrelevant and act as if it doesn't even exist. How many research papers are guilty of this? I work in a university where the validity of scientific enquiry is being undermined and erroded every day by commercial, and economic and political concerns. but that is not science, that's fraud. Nobody does basic research anymore and there is very little chance anyone will do research which is critical of an idea which stands to be profitable. I guess I haven't become so cynical. I think real science still goes on, you just need to know where to look- peer reviewed publications are about as good a place as you will find. Even then you will find occasional instances of fraud, but it doesn't last long. real science is self-correcting. Science which was once the great liberator has become prostitute to economics through the vice of technology. I do have a problem with that. it is not science which has become the prostitute, it is individuals which have prostituted themselves and commit fraud- science is just a process, not a thing. Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: bob allen wrote: snip most medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to accumulate statistically relevant data. The problems with herbs as I see it is two fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and secondly, dosage is unclear. Amounts of efficacious agents varies from species to species and even plant to plant depending on where/how it is grown. Well the way I see it is that someone tried to isolate a single substance within a plant which seemed to have the desired effect. Then they set out in earnest to synthesize the chemical. ( follow the money eh?) not to be chary, but you have a problem with someone earning a living? There are two problems here. First in the synthesis process many kinds of unhealthy substances may be involved in the chemical synthesis which can remain in trace amounts despite efforts to eliminate them. I only know of one example in the last couple of decades where an impurity in a synthetic compound was known to have adverse health effects. Way back when, it became popular to take L-tryptophan as a sleep aid (I don't think there ever was any proof of efficacy, but that doesn't seem to matter to a lot of folks). Anyway a Japanese company produced the tryptophan via a bacterial synthesis. The workup stage introduced an impurity that killed a couple of people. An admittedly bad, but rare occurance. Conversely, I know of several recent examples of substances sold as natural herbs, balms, etc which are unintentionally or intentionally full of impurities ranging from heavy metals, to pesticides, to steroids. http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=221548 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1480482 http://www.mothernature.com/Library/Bookshelf/Books/15/109.cfm Second and perhaps more important is what is left out. It is a bold and arrogant assumption that the theraputic effect of a herb is due
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
People learning science need to be introduced to non-linear and complex systems as a part of their basic education. Come to think of it, so do philosophers, sociologists, political scientists, economists...and journalists...just about everyone who deals with abstractions at all. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Tue, 19 Sep 2006, Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; [snip] I can't tell you how many times I've seen a 4th year or even a grad student act shocked and confused when a second or third order approximation didn't seem to cut it where the rubber meets the road in the real world. In the process of doing what they are taught they somehow lose sight of the stuff they decide is irrelevant and act as if it doesn't even exist. [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Science (was: amazing himalayan salt)
On Sep 19, 2006, at 2:04 PM, bob allen wrote: it is not science which has become the prostitute, it is individuals which have prostituted themselves and commit fraud- science is just a process, not a thing. After a long life in the sciences and engineering, I've come to believe that the scientific method has some basic flaws, two of which are as follows (there are others as well): 1. It can only be applied to questions which lend themselves to experimentation. Thus, many questions of existence (eg, does ball lighting occur in nature, do aliens visit earth, is there life after death, does cold fusion ever occur, etc etc) are almost entirely unreachable by its method. BTW, many of these questions are the most interesting, which I believe leads to the common perception that scientists often don't pursue the truly intriguing problems. 2. It depends upon the familiar sequence of hypothesis, experimentation, prediction, testing of predictions, new hypothesis, etc. Every step in the process has rigorous criteria and a whole slew of best practices that have grown up over the centuries, except one -- the hypothesis step. This is the step that depends the most on intuition, guessing, and a large dose of the A-HA! factor. It is also the step that is most likely to be shut down by propaganda, dominant paradigms, profit motive, et.al. In every age, the ability to conceive of novel hypotheses is compromised in certain ways, and science is narrowed as a result. And here's a third: because so many scientists believe that the scientific method is the ONLY path to valid knowledge, they will rarely admit its weaknesses or that important information about the universe can come in any other way. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
I was told the problem with synthetics is isomers. The natural chemical is thecorrect molecule. Synthetichas a 50-50 racemic mix half good and half bogus biologically. The herb is pure. The synthetic is 50% an unnatural molecule.KirkJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: bob allen wrote:snipmost medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to accumulate statistically relevant data. The problems with herbs as I see it is two fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and secondly, dosage is unclear. Amounts of efficacious agents varies from species to species and even plant to plant depending on where/how it is grown. Well the way I see it is that someone tried to isolate a single substance within a plant which seemed to have the desired effect. Then they set out in earnest to synthesize the chemical. ( follow the money eh?) There are two problems here. First in the synthesis process many kinds of unhealthy substances may be involved in the chemical synthesis which can remain in trace amounts despite efforts to eliminate them. Second and perhaps more important is what is left out. It is a bold and arrogant assumption that the theraputic effect of a herb is due soley to an isolated compound. Plants contain many compounds and they can and do work synergistically when the whole plant is consumed. Yes this is less scientific in the strict sense but I am not married to science because I find that it cuts me off from a whole realm of truth which lies just outside of the bounds of wehat science can explain. Science does not have all the answersyet. as far as I am aware there is no such thing as unnatural salt.Well yeah salt is an inorganic compound and as such it just is what it is. Or is it? Where was it precipitated and in the presence of what else which will come out in the precipitate? As you know, chemicals are never pure. It is these traces I am curious about. ( And I haven't done my homework here so I'm open for blasting about that...granted) What else is in table salt vs sea salt and how much? These are the questions that are of interest to me in this discussion, of course all salt is natural, so is feldspar, and so are gamma rays for that matter and water is a deadly asphyxiant one could say, also natural. Refined sugar is pure right? But what is it bleached with and what does that do to it, and what of the stuff which is removed? White flour sure looks nice and works great for pie crusts but how much of the nutrition of the grain remains in it after refining? And again what does the bleaching do? White rice vs brown rice, nutrition, ditto. This is the line of thinking I am applying to the question of sea salt vs refined salt, not whether NaCl is natural or not. Perhaps there are cases where it is naive to just trust what nature has provided for us and it is more harmful than the carefully controlled laboratory product and maybe there are traces of toxic heavy metals in sea salt that can accumulate and do you in. I don't know because I haven't checked but I guess it's time that I did! I still feel safe though with the generality which Darryl recently posted about his cynicism and the rule of thumb which is " follow the money" and what that means in terms of our food supply and what people will do or what they are willing to overlook in the name of profit.Joe___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11
To fall straight down means the failures supposedly caused by heat all happened at the same time. In the real world theylean to the failed side and then forces cause more failures. It is a very tricky business making them fall straight down. KirkAndrew Lowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: D. Mindock wrote: http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/alert/?alertid=9027371content_dir=ua_congressorg WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11 As we celebrate the 5th anniversary of Sept 11, more questions about what really happened that fateful day are surfacing. A businessman friend of mine who worked in the Twin Towers told me how everyone had to vacate their offices during innumerable fire drills months before Sept 11. These required they run to stairwells and wait for periods averaging 20 minutes. He recalls the bomb detecting dogs placed after the attack years ago were removed from then on. He is sure a demolition was planted then. Yeah right. Let me guess, it was all the fumes from the ANFO corroding his tin foil hat that alerted him!!!Many claim the buildings collapsed dueDo any of these people have the letters B.Eng(Civil) after their name? If not then they are not Civil Engineers and then definitely not Structural Engineers - you graduate from Uni with a degree in Civil Engineering and then over the years due to experience and specialisation become a Structural Engineer - Oh look, that's what I did hence I'm a Structural Engineer. to the intense heat melting the steel. Please see the videoWHAT UTTER CRAP. One of the main causes of failure was that the steel that comprised the floor trusses elongated due to heating. It didn't melt, the heat caused its tensile strength to reduce until the floor trusses failed causing lateral forces on the core which itself was weakened by the heat, and also had a good number of floors sitting above it. With the load from the floors above, the lateral forces from the floor trusses and its columns weakened by heat it's no wonder the areas around the impact points failed causing the collapse.And no the building was not designed to withstand the impact of a plane. The buildings were designed for wind loads etc, the usual loadings that Structural Engineers worry about and then as an AFTERTHOUGHT the building was checked to see how it would go up against a plane - the case of the Empire State Building being hit be a Bomber in WW2 being the "prior art". It was found that it should withstand the impact of a 707 going slowly with an almost empty fuel load - a plane lost in the fog looking for Kennedy Airport. The "weapons" on the day were 767's. The difference in kinetic energy between the 707 scenario and what actually happened is about 10 times greater in favour of the 767, which also had a close to full fuel load. Once again no need for explosives, the planes had enough energy themselves.Talking of the kinetic energy of the planes, that's why the fire protection on the steel didn't work. It had basically shattered due to the impacts of the planes with the buildings.To claim that the destruction of the WTC towers was the work of anything other than a situation that no sane Structural Engineer could ever conceive and hence design for is the work of someone with a few roo's loose in the top paddock. If you are skilled in the field of Structures, it failure, unfortunately, makes sense. documentary based on real footage and witness's narration during that day mentioned below. One sees people standing in the top floors in gaping walls near the flames, still motioning about. If they were not burnt how can steel be melting? Many jumped to their deaths intact.It didn't melt. Repeat after me, it didn't melt Molten steel is thick and like lava, flows slowly. These buildings,No it isn't. It can be as viscous as water. Ever been to a blast furnace? after only 50 minutes of limited fires in the top floors, imploded in 9 seconds to the ground. Molten steel would have taken a long time to buckle 100 stories down. The nearby building 7 also imploded that"buckle down 100 stories" WTF? same day although small flames entered it! Its owner admits giving OK to have it imploded. Building 7 held active FBI and Wall Street investigation documents of on going cases. Some had investigations of[SNIP]...I studied Civil Engineering with a major in Structures and Analysis not Medicine with a major in Psychiatry so I'll leave the reader to make their own judgements on the rest of this.Regards,Andrew Lowe B.Eng(Civil)___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing
Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
Hi Bob, Joe is right; herbs are better than synthetic drugs for the simple reason that you just mentioned, drugs have side effects. Herbs are actually foods. It is only confusing because our modern day society has put herbs into capsules. Originally herbs were only eaten just as we eat vegetables. Herbs do work but people have to be patient and they have to know about the whole part of healing; such as eliminating junk foods, exercise, stress elimination, promoting a strong immune system, etc. I believe it was Hippocrites who wrote: Let food be your medicine Terry Dyck From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 16:18:35 -0500 Howdy Joe, Mike, et al Joe Street wrote: Hi Mike; There is a part of me ( the part I like to think is wise) that tends to trust what comes out of mother nature's laboratory much more than the industrial product. This is why I use butter not margarine. better the devil you know than the devil you don't know? (butter, saturated fat and cholesterol vs margarine, trans fats) This is why I prefer herbs over medicines most medicines are herbs, or modeled after them and are purer and more predictable, with known side effects, at least after time to accumulate statistically relevant data. The problems with herbs as I see it is two fold- frequently there is a lack of proven efficacy and secondly, dosage is unclear. Amounts of efficacious agents varies from species to species and even plant to plant depending on where/how it is grown. and organic foods over factory. agreed, with the exception of factory Organic ala recent spinach issue This voice is always whispering that the more raw something is, the closer it is to it's natural state, the better. This voice tells that the converse, the more refined anything is, the more goodness has been stripped away and the more unhealthy in terms of preservatives and traces of processing steps are left behind in the product. processing is relative. Cassava is dangerously poisonous without processing I, like some others, confound myself at times with doublethink on this front however. For example water purified by reverse osmosis definitely is free of VOC's and chlorine, flourine etc but so are the minerals removed and drinking highly purified water can leach minerals from the body. So I stuggle to understand where the correct balance is at times. we all struggle- nobody said life was easy Bottled spring water can contain higher than the municipal level of heavy metals. I have wondered about natural salt deposits in this regard although I admit I have been lazy about doing my homework and looking for an assay on alternative salt products. as far as I am aware there is no such thing as unnatural salt. I was told that iodine was added to salt because there were many more cases of thyroid problems in the population before this was done iodination of salt began in earnest in the great lakes regions where the available salt had particularly low levels of iodine. See info on the goiter belt http://www3.uakron.edu/mmlab/dose/dose1_10.htm (unless this is disinformation and I am to learn that it aint so and it was just a way to unload iodine from some excess industrial process on an unsuspecting population vis the flouride scene with toothpaste and city water) It is often hard to know who or what to believe unless it is right in your area of knowledge. All I can hope to do is fight laziness and keep looking for information. This list is a goldmine in this regard and I can never give enough thanks for all I have learned from all the contibuting members here. BTW the sea salt I use doesn't pour well. pure salt, as well as salt without a desiccant clumps up in humid climates (it is hygroscopic) Hence Sodium alumino silicate or a similar desiccant is added. Mortons has advertised this property for years-when it rains it pours. I regard this as encouraging. What have 'they' done to regular table salt to make it run so easily hmmm? I wonder. Joe MK DuPree wrote: Hi Bob and List...I don't know. But I wish I could know all the time what is right and what is wrong, what is on one side and what is on another, whether or not there really is one side or another, but I don't know, the lines between this and that oftentimes become obscure. Maybe we should vaccinate, maybe we shouldn't. Maybe hell is freezing over, maybe it isn't. I don't know. I do know this, however, I have no one to blame but myself. I'm not sure I can say the same for anyone else, because it's really none of my business, but this is true for me--I have no one to blame but myself. And it is this that I seek for everyone, that they are able to one day and forever thereafter accept and say the same thing
Re: [Biofuel] Science
Ken Provost wrote: After a long life in the sciences and engineering, I've come to believe that the scientific method has some basic flaws, two of which are as follows (there are others as well) I'm composing this message with advance apologies to Bob Allen . . . : - ) I once wrote a children's story called The Applied Science of World Piece, in which Professor Carleton McFoosi--a Nobel Laureate for his work in the development of enhanced radiation weapons--applies the principles of the scientific method to achieving world peace. He begins with a hypothesis that if everyone can destroy one another, no one would dare to do so. He sets up a control group, with morally laconic, licentious liberals and fifty fanatic fundamentalists, provides them with nuclear weapons, then records their behavior. Unfortunately, the control group soon LOST control, as they used their nuclear weapons on one another, the test site was rendered dangerously radioactive for some time, and the learned professor had to go back and re-evaluate his hypothesis. In the next set of experiments, no weapons were provided, but the two replacement groups fought anyway, using furniture and other household items as weapons. Professor McFoosi took these away, only to discover that the test subjects would fight using their feet and fists. After this, he decided to apply Occam's Razor to the process and began surgically removing hands and feet, then elbows and knees. The test subjects resorted to screaming insults and biting one another, until Professor McFoosi removed one more body part (the head), and sure enough, all violence ceased. This triumph of reason was lauded in the newspapers and scientific journals, and Professor McFoosi was awarded an unprecendented SECOND Nobel Prize for his work. Silly? Completely! But it DOES illustrate that there are some questions science can't answer, and some problems science can't solve. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11
Kirk McLoren wrote: To fall straight down means the failures supposedly caused by heat all happened at the same time. In the real world they lean to the failed side and then forces cause more failures. It is a very tricky business making them fall straight down. But the dust prevented observers from actually witnessing the manner in which the lower floors fell. Additionally, ALL of the force that destroyed the towers came from the mass of upper floor falling directly on top of lower floors--kind of like crushing a soda can underfoot. It's not difficult to understand how this happened, unless one is UNWILLING to accept the simplest, most straightforward explanation. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11
There was no falling until the first failure. A little logic would go a long way here. And it fell straight down. If it hadnt the rubble pile would have extended in the direction of fall. Not rocket science here. Just basic evidence. BTW Robert - you an engineer? I am - and my daughter is a PE. Stay comfortable in your belief set. I'm sure you will.Kirkrobert and benita rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: To fall straight down means the failures supposedly caused by heat all happened at the same time. In the real world they lean to the failed side and then forces cause more failures. It is a very tricky business making them fall straight down.But the dust prevented observers from actually witnessing the manner in which the lower floors fell. Additionally, ALL of the force that destroyed the towers came from the mass of upper floor falling directly on top of lower floors--kind of like crushing a soda can underfoot. It's not difficult to understand how this happened, unless one is UNWILLING to accept the simplest, most straightforward explanation.robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure for Your Mindhttp://www.newadventure.caRanger Supercharger Project Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
