[biofuels-biz] More on SUVs
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/ frontline: rollover | PBS Rollover - the hidden history of the SUV. They're the most popular vehicle in America. Are they also among the most dengerous? Unsafe on any tire? How safe are SUVs? Should the government do more to protect consumers? An overview of the SUV's hidden history and a look at the politics of auto safety. Before you buy an SUV... Here are a few facts and statistics you ought to consider, including questions and answers on SUVs and safety, and links to current consumer information on the Web. Interviews Former top regulators, a longtime Ford marketer, a prominent plaintiff attorney, an award-winning New York Times reporter, and an insurance industry safety analyst. Nixon and Detroit - inside the Oval Office Web-exclusive audio of Richard Nixon's 1971 meeting with Henry Ford II and Lee Iacocca, and recently released documents revealing Nixon's efforts on behalf of the auto industry. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Response on Open letter to Mr. Sam Kazman about SUV interview at CNN.
Hi George, At 03:41 AM 1/14/2003 +, you wrote: Hakan, I agree with you on some points of your letter to Sam and disagree with you on others. Good. I agree with you that SUV drivers are causing injuries unnecessarily. I disagree we should take away the right for a person to own a SUV. Any vehicle not familiar to the driver should necessitate the driver receive training. I do not see where we disagree. Anyone should have the right to own it, but driving without education, no. In my first SUV I voluntarily participated in drivers training offered by Jeep and by local 4wd clubs. I am surprised the lack of customer training has not yet reached the courts via liable suits. In the area in which I coach if injuries were occurring like this; the equipment would not be blamed. The lack of responsible education would be and rightly so. It is now publicly known that SUV's must be driven differently than a zippy small car and the manufactures previously have failed to properly prepare their customers to that fact. I feel this problem exist with sporty cars and motorcycles as well. Yes, but sporty cars is not possible and at least in Europe motorbikes does require a special licence. Sporty cars is mostly a question of under or over steering and horse power. A sporty car often have beneficial properties that help the driver to manage the car well, contrary to a SUV. I think that what you mean is the bad judgement that some drivers of sporty cars show and that is more of the kind of people that are attracted by them, but most of them often show good judgement. I disagree in that the problems of safety with SUV's lie SOLELY on the SUV. Trucks/SUV's are really not much bigger than the past. Mostly; as you stated, cars have gotten smaller. By the way these days SUV's are mostly getting smaller again now too. . For example the Jeep Liberty is replacing the Jeep Cherokee, Also the winner of Petersons 4wd 4x4 of the year was a Lexus not the Hummer H2 or even the new stock off road wonder the Jeep Rubicon. The biggest problem is that it is an off road vehicle design, with high wheel base and gravity point. You do not need many hours of off road training and experience to understand this. Anyone who did off road driving in them, must have had some scaring moments when he/she have been on the limits. Without these experiences, it is difficult to develop an understanding of the vehicle. Still a majority of SUV drivers today, does not have off road experiences. It is also the reduced view and other tings, the statistics do show a 22% rise in fatalities from collision with objects in the SUV group. So who is to blame? NO ONE. Who is at fault? Manufacturers of both small and large vehicles are somewhat. Who should be limited by some governmental control? NO ONE, on this matter. Incentives need to be created to encourage auto manufacturers to do drivers training. Here we have a disagreement, because if you take your arguments further it would be voluntary to take a drivers license. I think that we can demand at least a light truck license for SUV drivers. For example the accident rate of drivers who were use to pumping brakes in slippery weather had a higher increase of auto accidents after buying new cars with ABS brakes. Pumping was in many cases used in a inefficient way also and the best way was to drive as if you had a raw egg between your feet and the pedals. ABS was very good, since it minimized the effect of panic breaking and the loss of control following it. It does not help for too heavy foot on the throttle or precise steering. They simply where not trained that this once tried and true method was very ineffective and unsafe with ABS brakes. Training would have avoided much of this. Enjoying my SUV to visit some wondrous places of beauty. That is the right way to use SUVs and I like it too. George Jessup Recreation Director ODG PBB Forum moderator Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] waste oil burners burning glycerine, ffa's
hello tom, placing the drip plate on which you burn your glycerine in a small chamber made from castable refractory would insure a high temperature environment. these refactories can withstand 3000deg.as for the waste btu's could they not be directed thru a heat exchanger for biodiesel processing and methanol recovery?just a suggestion . regards,roger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Hello Tom That's glycerine/FFA/catalyst you were working with? Or rather soap, not FFA. If you separate it: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html Separating glycerine/FFAs ... you're left with about 95%-pure glycerine (somewhat acidic), and FFAs, and the catalyst on the bottom. The glyc and FFAs won't mix, but either of them burns well, especially the FFAs, and I think the FFAs should be cleaner burning than SVO or WVO. I'll be doing more work soon on just how well they burn in what, how best to use them as fuels, but they do both burn. Another method people have experimented with is to mix the raw by-product, unseparated glyc/soaps/catalyst, with wood chips or sawdust, but this is where concerns over proper combustion arise. Top-down gasifier should do nicely though. I want to do some work on this soon too. Regards Keith I've got a couple years experience with burning glycerin. I had to do it, I've got such a large accumulation of the stuff. I've tried it in a couple of wood boilers and in a babington burner. The stuff does burn, but it takes special conditions to keep it going. Basically, without being exact about the fine details, it takes about 1000 degrees of temperature to keep the stuff going. Below that temperature and you'll mostly just burn off the methanol component, leaving a heavy vegetable based tar residue. It tried it in a babington, but it does not burn above about a 25% mix with oil. In a wood boiler it burns on top of coals well, but when the wood fire dies out it just accumulates the glycerin without much reduction. My current burner has a babington burner running on vegetable oil into a masonry stove with a separate drip of glycerin onto a hot steel plate. It burns very cleanly and VERY hot. Absolutely no emissions visible. Now I have to find out what to do with over 100 btu's per hour. Tom Leue In a message dated 1/11/03 3:59:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I looked up a few of those commercial oil burners for use with WVO. Sounds pretty interesting, though pricey... something to try and find secondhand, maybe? Then I got an email from a farmer nearby, someone who grows oil crops, asking about biodiesel production for on-farm use, and about ways to reduce waste in the process, all the usual questions people have. We were talking about 'glycerin' and ways to deal with it besides disposal... Does anyone on this list have experience burning their glycerin for shop heat or process heat, using some kind of waste oil burner, either one of these commercial units or one of the homebuilt ones off of Journeytoforever? I know that burning glycerine can produce some toxic gases if not done properly. What is 'properly' in this case? some particular temperature, some particular combustion environment? how does one know, using a Babington or a waste oil burner to burn glycerine byproduct, that it is safe to do so? Also I do the 'ffa recovery' process sometimes- purifying 'glycerine' with an acid to break down the soaps into salt and ffa, and producing a cleaner glycerine for degreaser use. Like everyone I know whose tried this, I've got a bit of ffa byproduct sitting around in my 'odd chemicals' collection now (I believe Ken Provost experimented with using that same ffa in soapmaking?). Todd Swearingen said something once about ffa being a potential fuel source for a Babington Burner, and has said somewhere that he thinks it could be a fuel in other situations. Anyone experimented with this, or any of you engineers out there have any ideas on how well it'll combust and under what conditions? (I don't have anything to try burning it in at the moment). Thanks, Mark Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
Re: [biofuels-biz] waste oil burners burning glycerine, ffa's
Several contributors have spoken about drip plates. I was advised by a prof. of fuel science that dissolving 5% water in the glyc. would cause it to vaporise explosively on contact with the hot plate, so improving atomisation and combustion completeness. Obviously, you would lose the latent heat in the steam, but at 5%, that would be rather small. Anyway, it would be quite easy to try for those with a working furnace. David T. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] BIODIESEL in Lithuania
Hello, I am representative from Kaunas (Lithuania) district municipality. There is an idea to establish a biodiesel factory. But problem is that it's very little information about it. I'm wondering if anybody could give me few suggestions about biodiesel process equipment. What are the main reasons choosing the equipment? Maybe you can suggest producers, to see how all business is in reality? Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] waste oil burners burning glycerine, ffa's
Several contributors have spoken about drip plates. I was advised by a prof. of fuel science that dissolving 5% water in the glyc. would cause it to vaporise explosively on contact with the hot plate, so improving atomisation and combustion completeness. Obviously, you would lose the latent heat in the steam, but at 5%, that would be rather small. Anyway, it would be quite easy to try for those with a working furnace. David T. Hi David Was he talking specifically about glyc, or about the complete by-product, with soap/FFA and catalyst? Best Keith Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] waste oil burners burning glycerine, ffa's Re: [biofuel] Re: biodiesel vs. propane for heating
Steam generator or turbine to produce electric power. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got a couple years experience with burning glycerin. I had to do it, I've got such a large accumulation of the stuff. I've tried it in a couple of wood boilers and in a babington burner. The stuff does burn, but it takes special conditions to keep it going. Basically, without being exact about the fine details, it takes about 1000 degrees of temperature to keep the stuff going. Below that temperature and you'll mostly just burn off the methanol component, leaving a heavy vegetable based tar residue. It tried it in a babington, but it does not burn above about a 25% mix with oil. In a wood boiler it burns on top of coals well, but when the wood fire dies out it just accumulates the glycerin without much reduction. My current burner has a babington burner running on vegetable oil into a masonry stove with a separate drip of glycerin onto a hot steel plate. It burns very cleanly and VERY hot. Absolutely no emissions visible. Now I have to find out what to do with over 100 btu's per hour. Tom Leue In a message dated 1/11/03 3:59:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I looked up a few of those commercial oil burners for use with WVO. Sounds pretty interesting, though pricey... something to try and find secondhand, maybe? Then I got an email from a farmer nearby, someone who grows oil crops, asking about biodiesel production for on-farm use, and about ways to reduce waste in the process, all the usual questions people have. We were talking about 'glycerin' and ways to deal with it besides disposal... Does anyone on this list have experience burning their glycerin for shop heat or process heat, using some kind of waste oil burner, either one of these commercial units or one of the homebuilt ones off of Journeytoforever? I know that burning glycerine can produce some toxic gases if not done properly. What is 'properly' in this case? some particular temperature, some particular combustion environment? how does one know, using a Babington or a waste oil burner to burn glycerine byproduct, that it is safe to do so? Also I do the 'ffa recovery' process sometimes- purifying 'glycerine' with an acid to break down the soaps into salt and ffa, and producing a cleaner glycerine for degreaser use. Like everyone I know whose tried this, I've got a bit of ffa byproduct sitting around in my 'odd chemicals' collection now (I believe Ken Provost experimented with using that same ffa in soapmaking?). Todd Swearingen said something once about ffa being a potential fuel source for a Babington Burner, and has said somewhere that he thinks it could be a fuel in other situations. Anyone experimented with this, or any of you engineers out there have any ideas on how well it'll combust and under what conditions? (I don't have anything to try burning it in at the moment). Thanks, Mark - Homestead Inc. www.yellowbiodiesel.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] waste oil burners burning glycerine, ffa's
Hi David Was he talking specifically about glyc, or about the complete by-product, with soap/FFA and catalyst? Best Keith I buttonholed him over canapes at a seminar, so could not be that specific. I had the impression that the technique would work with any liquid fuel that was miscible (or emulsified) with water. David T. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] waste oil burners burning glycerine, ffa's
Yes, heat use for heating the stored oil tanks, space heating, process heat, methanol recover, foot warmers, snow melting, bun warmers, and all that. its just a plumbing extravaganza and it takes a surprising lot of time and effort to get it all working. Tom Leue In a message dated 1/14/03 5:15:51 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: hello tom, placing the drip plate on which you burn your glycerin in a small chamber made from castable refractory would insure a high temperature environment. these refactories can withstand 3000deg.as for the waste btu's could they not be directed thru a heat exchanger for biodiesel processing and methanol recovery?just a suggestion . Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê Ê ÊÊ regards,roger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Hello Tom That's glycerine/FFA/catalyst you were working with? Or rather soap, not FFA. If you separate it: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html Separating glycerine/FFAs ... you're left with about 95%-pure glycerine (somewhat acidic), and FFAs, and the catalyst on the bottom. The glyc and FFAs won't mix, but either of them burns well, especially the FFAs, and I think the FFAs should be cleaner burning than SVO or WVO. I'll be doing more work soon on just how well they burn in what, how best to use them as fuels, but they do both burn. Another method people have experimented with is to mix the raw by-product, unseparated glyc/soaps/catalyst, with wood chips or sawdust, but this is where concerns over proper combustion arise. Top-down gasifier should do nicely though. I want to do some work on this soon too. Regards Keith I've got a couple years experience with burning glycerin. I had to do it, I've got such a large accumulation of the stuff. I've tried it in a couple of wood boilers and in a babington burner. The stuff does burn, but it takes special conditions to keep it going. Basically, without being exact about the fine details, it takes about 1000 degrees of temperature to keep the stuff going. Below that temperature and you'll mostly just burn off the methanol component, leaving a heavy vegetable based tar residue.ÊÊ It tried it in a babington, but it does not burn above about a 25% mix with oil. In a wood boiler it burns on top of coals well, but when the wood fire dies out it just accumulates the glycerin without much reduction. My current burner has a babington burner running on vegetable oil into a masonry stove with a separate drip of glycerin onto a hot steel plate. It burns very cleanly and VERY hot. Absolutely no emissions visible. Now I have to find out what to do with over 100 btu's per hour. Tom Leue In a message dated 1/11/03 3:59:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ê Ê I looked up a few of those commercial oil burners for use with WVO. Sounds pretty interesting, though pricey... something to try and find secondhand, maybe? Then I got an email from a farmer nearby, someone who grows oil crops, asking about biodiesel production for on-farm use, and about ways to reduce waste in the process, all the usual questions people have. We were talking about 'glycerin' and ways to deal with it besides disposal... Does anyone on this list have experience burning their glycerin for shop heat or process heat, using some kind of waste oil burner, either one of these commercial units or one of the homebuilt ones off of Journeytoforever? I know that burning glycerine can produce some toxic gases if not done properly. What is 'properly' in this case? some particular temperature, some particular combustion environment?Ê how does one know, using a Babington or a waste oil burner to burn glycerine byproduct, that it is safe to do so? Also I do the 'ffa recovery' process sometimes- purifying 'glycerine' with an acid to break down the soaps into salt and ffa, and producing a cleaner glycerine for degreaser use. Like everyone I know whose tried this, I've got a bit of ffa byproduct sitting around in my 'odd chemicals' collection now (I believe Ken Provost experimented with using that same ffa in soapmaking?). Todd Swearingen said something once about ffa being a potential fuel source for a Babington Burner, and has said somewhere that he thinks it could be a fuel in other situations. Anyone experimented with this, or any of you engineers out there have any ideas on how well it'll combust and under what conditions? (I don't have anything to try burning it in at the moment). Thanks, Mark Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an
[biofuels-biz] Re: cooperating on a veg. oil biofuel project in Calif.
I am exploring the establishment of a veg oil recycling/ biofuel project. and need someone with the technical and business know-how to provide the expertise to set this up. The project would be in the Central Valley of Calif. I need someone with the credentials to provide the on-site consulting to help put this together. Anyone interested? BTW: There is sufficient $$ avilable in the total project to do this. Please respond to the list and cc me directly please. Thanks, Len Walde, P.E. Sigma Energy Engineering, Inc. Renewable Energy, Process Engineering Serving Agriculture, Industry Commerce through Symbiotic Recycling tm Ph: 925-254-7633 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuels-biz] Re: cooperating on a veg. oil biofuel project in Calif.
Ask for Tim Maneely at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kind regards Winny -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Len Walde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: dinsdag 14 januari 2003 17:30 Aan: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Onderwerp: [biofuels-biz] Re: cooperating on a veg. oil biofuel project in Calif. I am exploring the establishment of a veg oil recycling/ biofuel project. and need someone with the technical and business know-how to provide the expertise to set this up. The project would be in the Central Valley of Calif. I need someone with the credentials to provide the on-site consulting to help put this together. Anyone interested? BTW: There is sufficient $$ avilable in the total project to do this. Please respond to the list and cc me directly please. Thanks, Len Walde, P.E. Sigma Energy Engineering, Inc. Renewable Energy, Process Engineering Serving Agriculture, Industry Commerce through Symbiotic Recycling tm Ph: 925-254-7633 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: cooperating on a veg. oil biofuel project in Calif.
Len, I am interested, can you tell me more? James Slayden On Tue, 14 Jan 2003, Len Walde wrote: I am exploring the establishment of a veg oil recycling/ biofuel project. and need someone with the technical and business know-how to provide the expertise to set this up. The project would be in the Central Valley of Calif. I need someone with the credentials to provide the on-site consulting to help put this together. Anyone interested? BTW: There is sufficient $$ avilable in the total project to do this. Please respond to the list and cc me directly please. Thanks, Len Walde, P.E. Sigma Energy Engineering, Inc. Renewable Energy, Process Engineering Serving Agriculture, Industry Commerce through Symbiotic Recycling tm Ph: 925-254-7633 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] See you later
We're one hour from leaving Osaka, moving house (and the whole project) to Ichijima, so I'll sign off and say goodbye for now. We should be able to hook up again tomorrow sometime. Sorry if some things are a bit slow till then, can't be helped. All best Keith Midori Journey to Forever Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: RE:Ag subsidies
Yes, well, Motie, you've certainly demonised the poor old Sierra Club, they couldn't be that effectively demonic no matter how hard they tried. Among lobbiests in Washington they and the other enviros are considered a joke, and they are, a bit, especially by comparison with real industry lobbiests. They get their invites to the press conferences and luncheons and so on, and they try to get a bit corporate too themselves, probably through sheer osmosies, but they're a joke. You've swallowed the wrong line, which has been fairly clear for a while. Notice how you've swung from ag subsidies for soy and corn to defending your precious forests against the evil legions of the Sierra Club, backed by twisted scientists and corrupt politicians. Instead of raising cordite over the Sierra Club, why not just go and blow up Disneyland, I'm sure that would be just as effective. Keith --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/10/195615.shtml http://www.libby.org/WesternNews/welcome.html I can almost smell a bit of COrdite in the air. Motie Damp squibs like the Sierra Club and the Wildlife Fund? Compared with the sort of people who back the CEI and the other Wise Use groups? Well, it's abundantly obvious which is more successful, and they've sure got you and Ms Alden shooting in the wrong direction. I'll defend our Forests from whomever is destroying them. The people who have have lost their jobs, Businesses and way of life, are backed against a wall. Is the Sierra Club going to feed those families? Motie, are you saying the likes of the Sierra Club and the Wildlife Fund are responsible for this subsidies debacle, rather than ADM, Monsanto, Cargill, et al? So you're going to go out and raise clouds of cordite over the Sierra Club, and that's going to fix everything that's wrong in Washington. These are 2 separate factions of the same problem, which is overwhelmingly stupid Policies, backed by pseudo=science and money from (possibly well-meaning) ignorant people. Heavy-handed, Top-down decision making from 2000 miles away has to cease! If the people in Washington, STAY in Washington, they'll simply be ignored. Otherwise their run-away Train is getting close to an immovable object. I see. Hm. Er, interesting plan. If you can figure out a way to stop that regulatory train from having a terrible wreck, please speak up quickly. Legislators, Agencies and regulatory bureaucrats won't listen to The People's legitimate complaints. Prosecutors won't prosecute flagrant violations of The People's Rights under Constitutional Law, Judges ignore or throw out legal protests in direct violation of our Constitutional Right to Petition for Redress of Grievances. The Sierra Club, using influence with corrupt Officials, is throwing People out of work and out of their homes, and destroying our Forests in a misguided attempt to save them. It may come down to a question of who loads who into the cattle cars. There is a reason (besides Professional COurtesy) that corrupt government Officials have been trying so hard to disarm honest law- abiding Citizens, while letting criminals run free. Tolerance for Tyrannical oppression has a limit. That limit is being Approached quickly. Keith Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] More on SUVs
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/ frontline: rollover | PBS Rollover - the hidden history of the SUV. They're the most popular vehicle in America. Are they also among the most dengerous? Unsafe on any tire? How safe are SUVs? Should the government do more to protect consumers? An overview of the SUV's hidden history and a look at the politics of auto safety. Before you buy an SUV... Here are a few facts and statistics you ought to consider, including questions and answers on SUVs and safety, and links to current consumer information on the Web. Interviews Former top regulators, a longtime Ford marketer, a prominent plaintiff attorney, an award-winning New York Times reporter, and an insurance industry safety analyst. Nixon and Detroit - inside the Oval Office Web-exclusive audio of Richard Nixon's 1971 meeting with Henry Ford II and Lee Iacocca, and recently released documents revealing Nixon's efforts on behalf of the auto industry. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: RE:Ag subsidies
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, well, Motie, you've certainly demonised the poor old Sierra Club, they couldn't be that effectively demonic no matter how hard they tried. Among lobbiests in Washington they and the other enviros are considered a joke, and they are, a bit, especially by comparison with real industry lobbiests. It doesn't really matter whether they are considered a joke by real industry lobbyists. What matters is that they have been effective in filing numerous frivolous Lawsuits that have mostly closed down a once thriving Industry. They get their invites to the press conferences and luncheons and so on, and they try to get a bit corporate too themselves, probably through sheer osmosies, but they're a joke. If they are a joke, how come no one outside of Washingtomn DC is laughing? Check witht he Farmers in the Klamath Basin, and see how many are laughing. Ask if the families of the Firefighters killed by these Environmental Whackos' are laughing. It's bad enough that there Policies are burning our Forests, but when their Whacko Laws won't let a Helicopter scoop water from a river to save Firefighters lives because there may be some fish also scooped up, no one involved is laughing about it. You've swallowed the wrong line, which has been fairly clear for a while. It isn't clear to me. Please enlighten me as to how burning our Forests, and putting entire Towns out of work is a good thing. Notice how you've swung from ag subsidies for soy and corn to defending your precious forests against the evil legions of the Sierra Club, backed by twisted scientists and corrupt politicians. They are related issues. Corrupt politicians, backed by pseudo- science and corrupt Judges that disallow any legal dissent are destroying our Nation for personal gain. Using National Resources to secure Mid-east Oil for Big Oil is also a part of it. We need to throw off the hands of Tyrants while we are still able. When the Corporations and the Government ignore all legal restraints, we have a military Dictatorship, and the active participation of the Judiciary is the enabling force. I predict that sustainable Logging will resume, and it will be unhealthy for whoever tries to stop it. I predict that many Judges are going to be Impeached, even if it means using force to remove them. I predict that local Sheriffs will be siding with The People, maybe even to the extent of calling on the National Guard to assist if needed. Instead of raising cordite over the Sierra Club, why not just go and blow up Disneyland, I'm sure that would be just as effective. That comment is very uncharacteristic of you, Keith. Moving is a stressful task, and it shows. A slow walk in the Forest, listening to the Trees, is good medicine for relieving stress. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: RE:Ag subsidies
Motie, I'm quite surprised. We had all this out previously in a lengthy discussion with Greg that centred on this news story, and on the GAO report it references. http://ens-news.com/ens/jul2002/2002-07-11-06.asp Conflicting Reports Shade Forest Fire Debate It debunks what you're saying, about frivolous lawsuits and the rest, but you persist in saying it. It wasn't just this lone story, there was plenty more. I think I asked you before: didn't you follow that discussion? Now you make these sweeping references to Klamath Basin farmers and so on, ascribing it all in one huge lump to the Sierra Club and/or Environmental Whackos, along with thieving judges and so on and on, but there seems to be a general shortage of facts, data, cases, specifics. There's been that shortage all along, right from when you started this discussion months ago. You haven't presented a case. Instead, put under any pressure, you simply up the ante - now the Sierra Club and/or Environmental Whackos are somehow related not only to Monsanto and Archer Daniels Midland and the soy subsidies etc (LOL!) but also to Big Oil in a Mideast resources grab. You don't think that's maybe stretching it just a teeny bit? The next logical step in this progression might be that it's the Sierra Club who're behind Bin Laden and the attack on the WTC, the Sierra Club funding Saddam's secret bioterror laboratories. Yes, you've demonised them, and yes, you've swallowed the wrong line. Please don't conclude that I'm brushing aside the plight of the Klamath Basin farmers and the families of dead firefighters on account of my disagreeing with you about the cause. I think you might do them more honor to look at it with less prejudgment (which means the same as prejudice, but prejudice is such a prejudiced word that I hesitate to use it). --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, well, Motie, you've certainly demonised the poor old Sierra Club, they couldn't be that effectively demonic no matter how hard they tried. Among lobbiests in Washington they and the other enviros are considered a joke, and they are, a bit, especially by comparison with real industry lobbiests. It doesn't really matter whether they are considered a joke by real industry lobbyists. What matters is that they have been effective in filing numerous frivolous Lawsuits that have mostly closed down a once thriving Industry. They get their invites to the press conferences and luncheons and so on, and they try to get a bit corporate too themselves, probably through sheer osmosies, but they're a joke. If they are a joke, how come no one outside of Washingtomn DC is laughing? Check witht he Farmers in the Klamath Basin, and see how many are laughing. Ask if the families of the Firefighters killed by these Environmental Whackos' are laughing. It's bad enough that there Policies are burning our Forests, but when their Whacko Laws won't let a Helicopter scoop water from a river to save Firefighters lives because there may be some fish also scooped up, no one involved is laughing about it. You've swallowed the wrong line, which has been fairly clear for a while. It isn't clear to me. Please enlighten me as to how burning our Forests, and putting entire Towns out of work is a good thing. Notice how you've swung from ag subsidies for soy and corn to defending your precious forests against the evil legions of the Sierra Club, backed by twisted scientists and corrupt politicians. They are related issues. Corrupt politicians, backed by pseudo- science and corrupt Judges that disallow any legal dissent are destroying our Nation for personal gain. Using National Resources to secure Mid-east Oil for Big Oil is also a part of it. We need to throw off the hands of Tyrants while we are still able. When the Corporations and the Government ignore all legal restraints, we have a military Dictatorship, and the active participation of the Judiciary is the enabling force. Um, yes, well. Now how does the poor old Sierra Club fit into all that, pray tell? I predict that sustainable Logging will resume, and it will be unhealthy for whoever tries to stop it. I predict that many Judges are going to be Impeached, even if it means using force to remove them. I predict that local Sheriffs will be siding with The People, maybe even to the extent of calling on the National Guard to assist if needed. ... Ulp... (!) I think you should take it easy. Instead of raising cordite over the Sierra Club, why not just go and blow up Disneyland, I'm sure that would be just as effective. That comment is very uncharacteristic of you, Keith. Moving is a stressful task, and it shows. A slow walk in the Forest, listening to the Trees, is good medicine for relieving stress. I'm not under stress Motie, sorry, and it wasn't at all uncharacteristic of me to be sceptical of a series of disconnects presented as a rational argument, no
RE: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator
This looks rather nice, but since that is about 6 feet tall, it certainly won't fit in my CRX. On this item, what is the approximate cost, in qty of 1 or 2? Does anyone know the efficiency of this beast? It looks like it can run on compression-ignition fuels.diesel, biodiesel,VO. One could conceivably run power off this and reclaim waste heat to heat water or for house heating for increased efficiency to 100%. How about the emissions? It might be overkill for one house, but for a small group of remote houses, or for off grid... Message: 3 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:55:51 -0800 (PST) From: James Slayden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: diesel gen might want to take a look at Capstone: http://www.microturbine.com/ James Slayden On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Crabb, David wrote: Hello., I would like to stop pumping petroleum into one of my cars. I am looking forward to trying to convert a crx to run on hybrid powertrain. I would like to run a diesel generator, inline with a clutch, then a dual shaft electric motor, then into the transmission. Are there any companies product range that would include generators that run in the same direction as the Honda motors? Naturally, I would like to run biodiesel, then SVO, as i have plenty of available wattage to heat the inital small tank of oil. thanks Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Smart car CDI on biodiesel?
just thinking if its possible to run the Smart Car CDI on biodiesel. then it would really be the most environmentaly safe car in the planet. too bad its not available here in manila. Cheers Poch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Fiat UNO Diesel on Biodiesel?
anyone here owns and runs a Fiat UNO diesel car on biodiesel. any feedback will be appreciated. looking for a small used diesel car in manila and i came upon a great deal on a Fiat UNO diesel car 1992. im on a very tight budget. Cheers Poch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Diesel
Ok so why is it so hard to locate a small diesel.. 3 to 5 HP OR, being mechanically inclined, does anyone know where i can find a single stage Diesel injector so i can make my own 3-5Hp diesel motor. Guess i will have to look into Diesel's patents. Thanks David Wood Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Fiat UNO Diesel on Biodiesel?
I presume it is the 1.9 litre diesel that you are talking about. Avoid it like the plague, they drop inlet valves and break camshafts for a pastime.Fiat have recently taken to using the Peugeot 1.9 and that is much much better. 1992 is a FIAT! Ken - Original Message - From: Poch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 5:06 PM Subject: [biofuel] Fiat UNO Diesel on Biodiesel? anyone here owns and runs a Fiat UNO diesel car on biodiesel. any feedback will be appreciated. looking for a small used diesel car in manila and i came upon a great deal on a Fiat UNO diesel car 1992. im on a very tight budget. Cheers Poch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] More on SUVs
SUV doesn't mean much to me in dear old Blighty. What are they that cause so much consternation. Is my Range Rover one of these? ken - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:08 AM Subject: [biofuel] More on SUVs http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/ frontline: rollover | PBS Rollover - the hidden history of the SUV. They're the most popular vehicle in America. Are they also among the most dengerous? Unsafe on any tire? How safe are SUVs? Should the government do more to protect consumers? An overview of the SUV's hidden history and a look at the politics of auto safety. Before you buy an SUV... Here are a few facts and statistics you ought to consider, including questions and answers on SUVs and safety, and links to current consumer information on the Web. Interviews Former top regulators, a longtime Ford marketer, a prominent plaintiff attorney, an award-winning New York Times reporter, and an insurance industry safety analyst. Nixon and Detroit - inside the Oval Office Web-exclusive audio of Richard Nixon's 1971 meeting with Henry Ford II and Lee Iacocca, and recently released documents revealing Nixon's efforts on behalf of the auto industry. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: RE:Ag subsidies
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Motie, I'm quite surprised. We had all this out previously in a lengthy discussion with Greg that centred on this news story, and on the GAO report it references. http://ens-news.com/ens/jul2002/2002-07-11-06.asp Conflicting Reports Shade Forest Fire Debate It debunks what you're saying, about frivolous lawsuits and the rest, but you persist in saying it. It wasn't just this lone story, there was plenty more. I think I asked you before: didn't you follow that discussion? Yes, I followed it, but it doesn't debunk or defuse the situation. Now you make these sweeping references to Klamath Basin farmers and so on, ascribing it all in one huge lump to the Sierra Club and/or Environmental Whackos, along with thieving judges and so on and on, but there seems to be a general shortage of facts, data, cases, specifics. You are correct that I haven't taken the time to present this as a legal case. I didn't think that this was the right place to argue it out. There's been that shortage all along, right from when you started this discussion months ago. You haven't presented a case. Instead, put under any pressure, you simply up the ante - now the Sierra Club and/or Environmental Whackos are somehow related not only to Monsanto and Archer Daniels Midland and the soy subsidies etc (LOL!) but also to Big Oil in a Mideast resources grab. You don't think that's maybe stretching it just a teeny bit? If the perception is that I am blaming 'it' all on the Sierra Club, then I failed to clearly present my thoughts. The Sierra Club is just a very small portion of what is wrong in our Nation. The 'Top Down' management style, backed up by the force of the Courts, is the problem I am trying to address. Endless litigations over the smallest decision is oppressive to the People trying to make a living. The outcome of litigation is actually irrelevant, if you can be delayed for 6 months to several years. Children still need to be fed and clothed. Stifling Oppression is the problem, and it seems that nearly every aspect of government is furthering it, instead of alleviating it. Corporate insiders (Big OIl, ADM,) are running governmnet Policy, based on benefit to them, not on what is right or Just.(or even Legal) Their 'pocket Judges' and 'pet Bureaucrats' continue to enable it, by blocking every attempt to recourse by the People. Please don't conclude that I'm brushing aside the plight of the Klamath Basin farmers and the families of dead firefighters on account of my disagreeing with you about the cause. I think you have misunderstood what I meant when discussing the 'cause'. I think you might do them more honor to look at it with less prejudgment (which means the same as prejudice, but prejudice is such a prejudiced word that I hesitate to use it). I admit to some prejudism. It's very difficult to ignore the disastrous consequences of these Policies, when one is being beat over the head with them on a daily basis. Um, yes, well. Now how does the poor old Sierra Club fit into all that, pray tell? They are one of the active participants in the endless litigations that have driven the cost of timber harvest beyond what the market will bear. It's cheaper to import Lumber from Canada, than it is to utilize that which is growing right outside our back doors. I predict that sustainable Logging will resume, and it will be unhealthy for whoever tries to stop it. I predict that many Judges are going to be Impeached, even if it means using force to remove them. I predict that local Sheriffs will be siding with The People, maybe even to the extent of calling on the National Guard to assist if needed. ... Ulp... (!) I think you should take it easy. I intend too. There are a lot of hungry, out of work Loggers and Sawmill Employees who will not. They've been demonized and starved and frustrated in their quest for Justice to the limit of their tolerance. I predict some Logging will resume, in a sustainable and environmentally sensitive manner, regardless of injunctions against it without mounds of paperwork, Permits and 'Studies'. I don't think Juries will convict anyone for violations of these 'Laws'. I'm not under stress Motie, sorry, and it wasn't at all uncharacteristic of me to be sceptical of a series of disconnects presented as a rational argument, no matter how fervently the presenter might believe in what he's saying. You confront me with faith, not reason, and I'm sceptical. But quite relaxed, thankyou - pleased to be moving, pleased to be going where we're going, and the move itself looks like being rather pain-free for a change. It's good to hear that. I'm happy for you. In fact, I sincerely do believe that blowing up the Sierra Club would be no more effective in achieving your goals than blowing up Disneyland
RE: [biofuel] More on SUVs
Your Range Rover is tied for the least fuel efficint, most polluting SUV. Congratulations, I hope you don't drive it to work. (Unless you work in the Serengeti.) -Original Message- From: Ken Basterfield [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:28 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] More on SUVs SUV doesn't mean much to me in dear old Blighty. What are they that cause so much consternation. Is my Range Rover one of these? ken - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:08 AM Subject: [biofuel] More on SUVs http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/ frontline: rollover | PBS Rollover - the hidden history of the SUV. They're the most popular vehicle in America. Are they also among the most dengerous? Unsafe on any tire? How safe are SUVs? Should the government do more to protect consumers? An overview of the SUV's hidden history and a look at the politics of auto safety. Before you buy an SUV... Here are a few facts and statistics you ought to consider, including questions and answers on SUVs and safety, and links to current consumer information on the Web. Interviews Former top regulators, a longtime Ford marketer, a prominent plaintiff attorney, an award-winning New York Times reporter, and an insurance industry safety analyst. Nixon and Detroit - inside the Oval Office Web-exclusive audio of Richard Nixon's 1971 meeting with Henry Ford II and Lee Iacocca, and recently released documents revealing Nixon's efforts on behalf of the auto industry. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator
Todd, What's CHP? And - does anyone know if these would qualify for California's rebates (that are in place for PV systems - up to 50% of cost is rebated.) Craig Appal Energy wrote: Rumour has it ~$30,000 per unit. They can be set up for CHP. Waste exhaust is monoxide free enough to feed CO2 for a greenhouse. -- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator
Rumour has it ~$30,000 per unit. They can be set up for CHP. Waste exhaust is monoxide free enough to feed CO2 for a greenhouse. - Original Message - From: Crabb, David [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 10:10 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator This looks rather nice, but since that is about 6 feet tall, it certainly won't fit in my CRX. On this item, what is the approximate cost, in qty of 1 or 2? Does anyone know the efficiency of this beast? It looks like it can run on compression-ignition fuels.diesel, biodiesel,VO. One could conceivably run power off this and reclaim waste heat to heat water or for house heating for increased efficiency to 100%. How about the emissions? It might be overkill for one house, but for a small group of remote houses, or for off grid... Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator
James, Another question - the Capstone will run on diesel, which means it *should* run on bioD, and maybe on WVO/SVO if the fuel were heated and subjected to the usual SVO bag o' tricks - but will California give a rebate for alternative fuels when they might recognize that some folks might just claim to be using bioD to get the rebate - then run the thing on dinodiesel? Craig James Slayden wrote: Combined heat and power. There is a rebate on any generating device using alternative fuels, something like $2Kw up to a certain limit. I have the info somewhere. There are rebates on PV, Wind, alternative fuels, and hydro. Lemme look further. BTW, this is only for businesses. James Slayden On Tue, 14 Jan 2003, craig reece wrote: Todd, What's CHP? And - does anyone know if these would qualify for California's rebates (that are in place for PV systems - up to 50% of cost is rebated.) Craig Appal Energy wrote: Rumour has it ~$30,000 per unit. They can be set up for CHP. Waste exhaust is monoxide free enough to feed CO2 for a greenhouse. -- Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HGTV Dream Home Giveaway Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [HGTV Dream Home Giveaway] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] More on SUVs
Fore runner of the SUV. Yes. - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:28 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] More on SUVs SUV doesn't mean much to me in dear old Blighty. What are they that cause so much consternation. Is my Range Rover one of these? ken - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:08 AM Subject: [biofuel] More on SUVs http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/ frontline: rollover | PBS Rollover - the hidden history of the SUV. They're the most popular vehicle in America. Are they also among the most dengerous? Unsafe on any tire? How safe are SUVs? Should the government do more to protect consumers? An overview of the SUV's hidden history and a look at the politics of auto safety. Before you buy an SUV... Here are a few facts and statistics you ought to consider, including questions and answers on SUVs and safety, and links to current consumer information on the Web. Interviews Former top regulators, a longtime Ford marketer, a prominent plaintiff attorney, an award-winning New York Times reporter, and an insurance industry safety analyst. Nixon and Detroit - inside the Oval Office Web-exclusive audio of Richard Nixon's 1971 meeting with Henry Ford II and Lee Iacocca, and recently released documents revealing Nixon's efforts on behalf of the auto industry. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator
Combined heat and power. There is a rebate on any generating device using alternative fuels, something like $2Kw up to a certain limit. I have the info somewhere. There are rebates on PV, Wind, alternative fuels, and hydro. Lemme look further. BTW, this is only for businesses. James Slayden On Tue, 14 Jan 2003, craig reece wrote: Todd, What's CHP? And - does anyone know if these would qualify for California's rebates (that are in place for PV systems - up to 50% of cost is rebated.) Craig Appal Energy wrote: Rumour has it ~$30,000 per unit. They can be set up for CHP. Waste exhaust is monoxide free enough to feed CO2 for a greenhouse. -- Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HGTV Dream Home Giveaway Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Euro and US Biodiesel Issues
I am new to the forum and this is a note I put on the TDi site. Currently, I am advising energy firms on biodiesel production. I owned one of the first VW Rabbit Diesels in 1978 and lived in Europe, where I had a Peugeot 405 Turbo Diesel. I am looking to buy a Tdi or old MB 300SD. Here is a review of Eurobiodiesel versus Amerobiodiesel. Global Change Strategies International, Inc. published an excellent review of North American biodiesel technology, production, supply and related issues. I covers the issues well, especially the technial ones on cetane, rape and soy, genetics, processing parameters, etc. http://www.ec.gc.ca/transport/publications/biodiesel/biodieseltoc.htm Cetane in soybean oil based methyl ester (SME) is 46.2 and with rapeseed oil (RME) it is 54.4 and this goes someway to explaining why VW has issues with US soyoil biodiesel (this assumes high QA processing). Also, the cloud point of the SME is higher at 2 C compared to RME at -2 C. Essentially, the problem with alkanes in petroleum diesel and saturates in vegetable oil is the same. These chemical homologues are the key to high cetane, but since these are mixed unsaturates with saturated, they cloud at higher temperatures than the unsaturates. Same with paraffins and olefins in crude oil. Also, a good standard measure to separate the two is Iodine Value (IA) as the Europeans are using 115 max (DIN 53241 Part 1), which could be a way to segregate as SME tends to be higher (117-143), hence less cetane, power, etc. compared to RME at 94-120. Also, the Europeans do not suffer cold winters as we North Americans do, so they are looking at variable quality feedstocks from fryer oil wastes and tallow as well as ethyl esters. With our cold weather potentials, we need lower molecular weights from mono-alkyl esters with higher unsaturates, especially for older diesel engines and injection systems that can withstand low QA. I believe that VW is concerned that too many homebrewers of biodiesel will hurt themselves handling methanol and caustic soda (read Á¡litigation prone USAÁ±) making poor quality biodiesel that would damage the TDi engines. Until the North Americans develop stronger QA in manufacturing, VW will no doubt keep its concerns known. As a former Eurocarowner, the US weakness is always QA. As the homily goes, the Germans make an engineer's car, the Italians, a designer's, the French, a car of comfort, the British did luxury and the Americans, well, they sure make a lot of them. With B20 these issues are technical points, as the key component remains petroleum aromatics and olefins. However, lower US cetane is becoming an issue, ULSD will yet lower cetane. Biodiesel adds excellent cetane to petroleum diesel. Hope this helps. I look forward to contributing to the forum on issues of oil processing. I see a bright future of cleaner fuels run in high technology diesel engines. Eventually, the US which is 99% wholesale and fleet oriented, will demand high QA diesel and biodiesel and blends. It is long overdue. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds a little bit stupid, since the European warranty does not specify or have reference to feed stock. Probably someone who does not really know anything about it. Could be a US political issue. So write to the parent and ask, why they have different policies and do not consider the fast growing use of biodiesel in US. Hakan At 04:36 PM 1/13/2003 -0600, you wrote: This is the response I got concerning biodiesel and it voiding the powertrain warranty. From: VIC Web Responses [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Product Information 1/13 db Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:26:53 -0500 Dear Brian, Thank you for visiting the Volkswagen Web site. We appreciate your inquiry on Volkswagen's position on using biodiesel fuel. B100 stands for 100% biodiesel. It is a diesel fuel derived from biomass feedstock such as soybeans. It can be blended with regular diesel fuel (B20 = 20% biodiesel/80% regular diesel, for example). In Europe our diesel engines are certified to operate any blend of the biodiesel that is available in Europe. European biodiesel is different than biodiesel in the U.S. since it is produced from different feedstock (the rapeseed plant versus the soy plant). Our parent company does not agree with the specifications for biodiesel in the U.S. and does not recommend its use in any percentage. Using biodiesel will invalidate our warranty. If you have any further questions or concerns, please contact Volkswagen Customer Care at 800-822-8987. Thank you for your submission. Dennis Volktalk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: None To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Product Information Name : Brian
Re: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator
James, Thanks a bunch - I'll check it out. I have a client who's thinking of installing a diesel genset -which I'd convert to run on WVO, it says here - for his tile warehouse and offices - but if the Capstone turbine would run on bioD or WVO *and* get the State of California rebates, that would be preferable. Hey, and maybe they'll give the rebate even if they think you're going to run it on dinodiesel - if the emissions are so clean. If I find out anything, I'll let the group know. Craig James Slayden wrote: I would assume that to get the credit the setup would have to be verified by the appropiate athorities. Here is some info on the wind and PV credits (last year I believe): http://www.taosgreensolar.com/california_page.htm Wow, I didn't realize that the rebate for PV/Wind/Hydro is $4.50 per watt!! that is quite good. Ah, I found the direct link: http://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/ This is the 2003 guidebook which is under revision. ttp://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/documents/2002-12-03_DRAFT_EMERGING.PDF I person I talked to (i called :) I *heart* 1-800 numbers!!) said that the funds are on hold at present and there is a 30 day wait period for both the final guidebook revision and applications to start. The Kw has gone up in various catagories so that businesses can have up to ~100Kw systems installed. Renewable fuels are most likely to be $2.50/Kw credit. Hope that helps, James Slayden Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator
I would assume that to get the credit the setup would have to be verified by the appropiate athorities. Here is some info on the wind and PV credits (last year I believe): http://www.taosgreensolar.com/california_page.htm Wow, I didn't realize that the rebate for PV/Wind/Hydro is $4.50 per watt!! that is quite good. Ah, I found the direct link: http://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/ This is the 2003 guidebook which is under revision. http://www.energy.ca.gov/renewables/documents/2002-12-03_DRAFT_EMERGING.PDF I person I talked to (i called :) I *heart* 1-800 numbers!!) said that the funds are on hold at present and there is a 30 day wait period for both the final guidebook revision and applications to start. The Kw has gone up in various catagories so that businesses can have up to ~100Kw systems installed. Renewable fuels are most likely to be $2.50/Kw credit. Hope that helps, James Slayden On Tue, 14 Jan 2003, craig reece wrote: James, Another question - the Capstone will run on diesel, which means it *should* run on bioD, and maybe on WVO/SVO if the fuel were heated and subjected to the usual SVO bag o' tricks - but will California give a rebate for alternative fuels when they might recognize that some folks might just claim to be using bioD to get the rebate - then run the thing on dinodiesel? Craig James Slayden wrote: Combined heat and power. There is a rebate on any generating device using alternative fuels, something like $2Kw up to a certain limit. I have the info somewhere. There are rebates on PV, Wind, alternative fuels, and hydro. Lemme look further. BTW, this is only for businesses. James Slayden On Tue, 14 Jan 2003, craig reece wrote: Todd, What's CHP? And - does anyone know if these would qualify for California's rebates (that are in place for PV systems - up to 50% of cost is rebated.) Craig Appal Energy wrote: Rumour has it ~$30,000 per unit. They can be set up for CHP. Waste exhaust is monoxide free enough to feed CO2 for a greenhouse. -- Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HGTV Dream Home Giveaway Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [HGTV Dream Home Giveaway] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HGTV Dream Home Giveaway Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator
David, check this link out: http://www.microturbine.com/applications/hybrid.asp They have the emissions data there. It looks like it has a 70% reduction in emissions, added with biodiesel that would be another 70-90% for B100 of the left over 30, so let's say maybe a PZEV for the application that it serves. How CA classifies PZEV's I think is based on application; ie. larger applications (busses, heavy equipment, etc.) would get a larger allowance for emissions. Has anyone read the PZEV guidelines and can clarify? BTW, the Capstone Microturbine alone is rated a ULEV propulsion system by the CARB. James Slayden On Tue, 14 Jan 2003, Crabb, David wrote: This looks rather nice, but since that is about 6 feet tall, it certainly won't fit in my CRX. On this item, what is the approximate cost, in qty of 1 or 2? Does anyone know the efficiency of this beast? It looks like it can run on compression-ignition fuels.diesel, biodiesel,VO. One could conceivably run power off this and reclaim waste heat to heat water or for house heating for increased efficiency to 100%. How about the emissions? It might be overkill for one house, but for a small group of remote houses, or for off grid... Message: 3 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:55:51 -0800 (PST) From: James Slayden [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: diesel gen might want to take a look at Capstone: http://www.microturbine.com/ James Slayden On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Crabb, David wrote: Hello., I would like to stop pumping petroleum into one of my cars. I am looking forward to trying to convert a crx to run on hybrid powertrain. I would like to run a diesel generator, inline with a clutch, then a dual shaft electric motor, then into the transmission. Are there any companies product range that would include generators that run in the same direction as the Honda motors? Naturally, I would like to run biodiesel, then SVO, as i have plenty of available wattage to heat the inital small tank of oil. thanks Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] WVO Availability
What ideas has anyone come up with to get a decent supply of WVO? I'm thinking more of the small town approach - small industrial (logging, mining etc) of 30,000 or less. You have all the fast foods but realistically the turn over of VO is not that great. These towns have huge potential for biodiesel with many ford, dodge and Chevy trucks running around, but if there isn't the availability then there is no point in putting the energy/finances into a setup to produce the fuel. What other sources are there? Robin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Euro and US Biodiesel Issues
Hi, If you do an analyze of diesel in Europe and diesel in US, it is larger difference than biodiesel Europe and biodiesel US. The logic then would be that warranty for VW diesel cars are not valid at all in US. We know that they have warranty for the low quality US diesel. Where in Europe did you live, I like to know, because it was warmer than US. From North to south in US, it is more or less the same in north to south in Europe as US and then I include Alaska. It is more biodiesel produced both by home producers and over all in Europe. I can only see some sort of political motive if I look for one. Maybe they said that the US biodiesel and automobile diesel market in US lags behind and is not mature or large enough to treat as sincerely as the European and it is better to be friend than foe with the oil companies in US. Hakan At 11:16 PM 1/14/2003 +, you wrote: I am new to the forum and this is a note I put on the TDi site. Currently, I am advising energy firms on biodiesel production. I owned one of the first VW Rabbit Diesels in 1978 and lived in Europe, where I had a Peugeot 405 Turbo Diesel. I am looking to buy a Tdi or old MB 300SD. Here is a review of Eurobiodiesel versus Amerobiodiesel. Global Change Strategies International, Inc. published an excellent review of North American biodiesel technology, production, supply and related issues. I covers the issues well, especially the technial ones on cetane, rape and soy, genetics, processing parameters, etc. http://www.ec.gc.ca/transport/publications/biodiesel/biodieseltoc.htm Cetane in soybean oil based methyl ester (SME) is 46.2 and with rapeseed oil (RME) it is 54.4 and this goes someway to explaining why VW has issues with US soyoil biodiesel (this assumes high QA processing). Also, the cloud point of the SME is higher at 2 C compared to RME at -2 C. Essentially, the problem with alkanes in petroleum diesel and saturates in vegetable oil is the same. These chemical homologues are the key to high cetane, but since these are mixed unsaturates with saturated, they cloud at higher temperatures than the unsaturates. Same with paraffins and olefins in crude oil. Also, a good standard measure to separate the two is Iodine Value (IA) as the Europeans are using 115 max (DIN 53241 Part 1), which could be a way to segregate as SME tends to be higher (117-143), hence less cetane, power, etc. compared to RME at 94-120. Also, the Europeans do not suffer cold winters as we North Americans do, so they are looking at variable quality feedstocks from fryer oil wastes and tallow as well as ethyl esters. With our cold weather potentials, we need lower molecular weights from mono-alkyl esters with higher unsaturates, especially for older diesel engines and injection systems that can withstand low QA. I believe that VW is concerned that too many homebrewers of biodiesel will hurt themselves handling methanol and caustic soda (read Á¡litigation prone USAÁ±) making poor quality biodiesel that would damage the TDi engines. Until the North Americans develop stronger QA in manufacturing, VW will no doubt keep its concerns known. As a former Eurocarowner, the US weakness is always QA. As the homily goes, the Germans make an engineer's car, the Italians, a designer's, the French, a car of comfort, the British did luxury and the Americans, well, they sure make a lot of them. With B20 these issues are technical points, as the key component remains petroleum aromatics and olefins. However, lower US cetane is becoming an issue, ULSD will yet lower cetane. Biodiesel adds excellent cetane to petroleum diesel. Hope this helps. I look forward to contributing to the forum on issues of oil processing. I see a bright future of cleaner fuels run in high technology diesel engines. Eventually, the US which is 99% wholesale and fleet oriented, will demand high QA diesel and biodiesel and blends. It is long overdue. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds a little bit stupid, since the European warranty does not specify or have reference to feed stock. Probably someone who does not really know anything about it. Could be a US political issue. So write to the parent and ask, why they have different policies and do not consider the fast growing use of biodiesel in US. Hakan At 04:36 PM 1/13/2003 -0600, you wrote: This is the response I got concerning biodiesel and it voiding the powertrain warranty. From: VIC Web Responses [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Product Information 1/13 db Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 17:26:53 -0500 Dear Brian, Thank you for visiting the Volkswagen Web site. We appreciate your inquiry on Volkswagen's position on using biodiesel fuel. B100 stands for 100% biodiesel. It is a diesel fuel derived from biomass feedstock such as soybeans. It can be blended with regular diesel fuel (B20 =
Re: [biofuel] WVO Availability
you'd be surprised at how much vegetable oil comes out of a small town of loggers, miners, and other working folk (i've checked this out pretty thoroughly hunting grease on a few long road trips). It seems like it wouldn't be much but that is wrong- fast food restaurants really put out huge amounts of the stuff (of varying quality of course, you might not have the choice we have in cities, but... ) Mark At 04:27 PM 1/14/2003 -0800, you wrote: What ideas has anyone come up with to get a decent supply of WVO? I'm thinking more of the small town approach - small industrial (logging, mining etc) of 30,000 or less. You have all the fast foods but realistically the turn over of VO is not that great. These towns have huge potential for biodiesel with many ford, dodge and Chevy trucks running around, but if there isn't the availability then there is no point in putting the energy/finances into a setup to produce the fuel. What other sources are there? Robin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861426.4212664.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705083269:HM/*http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/pac_ctnt/text/0,,HGTV_3936_5802,FF.htmle7dfa30.jpg e7dfc4d.jpg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Vegetable shortening as fuel (was Re: [biofuel] WVO Availability
Robin, Looks like Mark can make biodiesel with it, so you've gotten that answer. In case you're considering using it for a straight vegetable oil conversion, I would say sure to that as well, provided you provide your vehicle with some good dependable in-tank heating. I'd recommend the Webb HotSTK http://www.webb-sales.com/I80.htm (with thanks to motie, who turned us onto this most excellent fuel tank heating device.) Craig Robin Parker wrote: Another question I have: A lot of fast food outlets use vegetable shortening - it's hard at room temperature but melts in the fryers. Can this stuff be used? Robin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [HGTV Dream Home Giveaway] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WVO Availability
Robin, The average person will consume 2 gallons of veg oil per year - 60,000 gallons in your town. Add a few surrounding towns and you should reach 100,000 gallons. The ease of getting supplies will vary by what your competitor is charging to pick it up. In Wisconsin they are charging $55 per removal. Needless to say, we can get all we want for free! Craig At 04:27 PM 1/14/2003 -0800, you wrote: What ideas has anyone come up with to get a decent supply of WVO? I'm thinking more of the small town approach - small industrial (logging, mining etc) of 30,000 or less. You have all the fast foods but realistically the turn over of VO is not that great. These towns have huge potential for biodiesel with many ford, dodge and Chevy trucks running around, but if there isn't the availability then there is no point in putting the energy/finances into a setup to produce the fuel. What other sources are there? Robin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861426.4212664.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705083 269:HM/*http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/pac_ctnt/text/0,,HGTV_3936_5802,FF.htmle7d fa30.jpg e7dfc4d.jpg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofu el.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WVO Availability
Another question I have: A lot of fast food outlets use vegetable shortening - it's hard at room temperature but melts in the fryers. Can this stuff be used? Robin Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] See you later
We're one hour from leaving Osaka, moving house (and the whole project) to Ichijima, so I'll sign off and say goodbye for now. We should be able to hook up again tomorrow sometime. Sorry if some things are a bit slow till then, can't be helped. All best Keith Midori Journey to Forever Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WVO Availability
sure! Mark At 06:46 PM 1/14/2003 -0800, you wrote: Another question I have: A lot of fast food outlets use vegetable shortening - it's hard at room temperature but melts in the fryers. Can this stuff be used? Robin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/M=241773.2861426.4212664.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705083269:HM/*http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/pac_ctnt/text/0,,HGTV_3936_5802,FF.htmlec294e7.jpg ec2959b.jpg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Fwd: Waste Oil Furnace
Hi folks, we were talking about those commercially available waste oil burners. Here's one price, and a letter I got from a dealer of one brand. Like I said, it's something to try and find a used version of... though there's all kinds of homemade versions out there (such as the plans on Journeytoforever) Mark From: Kathy Schroeder [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mark: I received your email from Siebring Mfg. regarding a small waste oil furnace. If you want to go into www.kagiburner.com and look around at the furnaces we have available I think that might answer some of your questions. We sell the Siebring furnace cabinet with our waste oil burner on it. It is a great system. The price of the 150HW package is $3,200.00, this is a complete package it comes with everything that you will need to get your furnace up and running. Take a look around our website and give me a call if you have any questions. Thank you for your interest in our products. Kathy Kagi Heating Supplies _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: See you later
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're one hour from leaving Osaka, moving house (and the whole project) to Ichijima, so I'll sign off and say goodbye for now. We should be able to hook up again tomorrow sometime. Sorry if some things are a bit slow till then, can't be helped. All best Keith Midori Journey to Forever Have a safe Journey, but not off to Forever just yet! LOL Best Wishes, Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] See you later
Good luck in your new home. Hakan At 12:12 PM 1/15/2003 +0900, you wrote: We're one hour from leaving Osaka, moving house (and the whole project) to Ichijima, so I'll sign off and say goodbye for now. We should be able to hook up again tomorrow sometime. Sorry if some things are a bit slow till then, can't be helped. All best Keith Midori Journey to Forever Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator
CHP - Continual Heat Power. Power from direct drive or steam generation. Secondary heat from waste exhaust or spent steam heat exchange and recovery. They probably qualify for a rebate somewhere if you're using landfill gas or biomass (producer gases) or biodiesel as the fuel sources. Multiple models available to run on any feedstock imaginable, fossil fuel or bio. Still a small company spread a bit too thin on human resources and they don't get back to small frys very well, if at all. But they're going places and will be a micro/modular power generation standard in 5 years or less. They are already something of that now, albeit in a small circle. - Original Message - From: craig reece [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator Todd, What's CHP? And - does anyone know if these would qualify for California's rebates (that are in place for PV systems - up to 50% of cost is rebated.) Craig Appal Energy wrote: Rumour has it ~$30,000 per unit. They can be set up for CHP. Waste exhaust is monoxide free enough to feed CO2 for a greenhouse. -- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator
California have reservations? Sure. Receipts or production records should be convincing enough should they care to do an audit. And yes. I believe they can tune a model for waste crankcase oil, which would mean they can tune one for veg oil. I did get an upturned eyebrow when I requested info on multi-feedstock capability, inclusive of natural gas, producer gas, SVO and biodiesel. Took a month for them to even acknowledge the inquiry. Then I never got the information requested. Todd - Original Message - From: craig reece [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator James, Another question - the Capstone will run on diesel, which means it *should* run on bioD, and maybe on WVO/SVO if the fuel were heated and subjected to the usual SVO bag o' tricks - but will California give a rebate for alternative fuels when they might recognize that some folks might just claim to be using bioD to get the rebate - then run the thing on dinodiesel? Craig James Slayden wrote: Combined heat and power. There is a rebate on any generating device using alternative fuels, something like $2Kw up to a certain limit. I have the info somewhere. There are rebates on PV, Wind, alternative fuels, and hydro. Lemme look further. BTW, this is only for businesses. James Slayden On Tue, 14 Jan 2003, craig reece wrote: Todd, What's CHP? And - does anyone know if these would qualify for California's rebates (that are in place for PV systems - up to 50% of cost is rebated.) Craig Appal Energy wrote: Rumour has it ~$30,000 per unit. They can be set up for CHP. Waste exhaust is monoxide free enough to feed CO2 for a greenhouse. -- Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HGTV Dream Home Giveaway Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [HGTV Dream Home Giveaway] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator
Wow, I didn't realize that the rebate for PV/Wind/Hydro is $4.50 per watt!! that is quite good. Was as high as $5.00/kW in the oulying areas of the Bay last year about this time. Had a lot of pro-nukers shooting it down as overly subsidized and laying false claims that the various utilities and state agencies were actually losing money in comparison to the public monies saved in the long run. The conversation usually happens to swing that way, no matter how the numbers crunch and prove them wrong. They tend to forget that their entire industry was built on the backs of taxpayer funded subsidization of one sort or another and is still highly subsidized in multiple venues, inclusive of fuel life cycles, disposal, security, emergency preparedness, insurance caps, and a few dozen other areas that will inevitably denied in a dinner conversation. Todd Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WVO Availability
There is only one primary point source for WVO - VO users. It's up to the biodiesel manufacturer who wants to use this feedstock to overcome the logistic issues. It's doable and profitable. Start looking at operating one 1,500 to 3,000 gpd facility for every 30,000 plus population center (or radius) and your on your way towards profitability at scale. Todd - Original Message - From: Robin Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:27 PM Subject: [biofuel] WVO Availability What ideas has anyone come up with to get a decent supply of WVO? I'm thinking more of the small town approach - small industrial (logging, mining etc) of 30,000 or less. You have all the fast foods but realistically the turn over of VO is not that great. These towns have huge potential for biodiesel with many ford, dodge and Chevy trucks running around, but if there isn't the availability then there is no point in putting the energy/finances into a setup to produce the fuel. What other sources are there? Robin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] capstone turbine generator
Thanks, Todd. Craig Appal Energy wrote: CHP - Continual Heat Power. Power from direct drive or steam generation. Secondary heat from waste exhaust or spent steam heat exchange and recovery. They probably qualify for a rebate somewhere if you're using landfill gas or biomass (producer gases) or biodiesel as the fuel sources. Multiple models available to run on any feedstock imaginable, fossil fuel or bio. Still a small company spread a bit too thin on human resources and they don't get back to small frys very well, if at all. But they're going places and will be a micro/modular power generation standard in 5 years or less. They are already something of that now, albeit in a small circle. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hey Todd Was: capstone turbine generator
Hey Todd!! Wuz up!! Long time no hear! Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
