[biofuels-biz] Despite Unresolved Environmental Problems, U.S. Senate May Allow Double Amount Of Ethanol In Gas
June 3, 2003 Despite Unresolved Environmental Problems, U.S. Senate May Allow Double Amount Of Ethanol In Gas H. JOSEF HEBERT, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Politicians hail ethanol, the corn-based gasoline additive, as a boon to the environment and a way to reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil. But ethanol also comes with its own environmental problems, and scientists disagree over whether producing ethanol uses more fossil energy than it replaces. The Senate this week will decide whether to double the amount of ethanol to be used in gasoline, to 5 billion gallons a year. Critics say the plan is just one more subsidy for corn growers. But supporters say the proposal is essential to an energy policy that is less reliant on oil. It will reduce our dependence on foreign oil. It will protect the environment, says Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, Rep.-Tennessee. There is skepticism about those claims. Ethanol's benefits are a mixed bag, says Blake Early, an American Lung Association lobbyist. Ethanol's clearest air-quality benefit is that it significantly cuts carbon monoxide, he says. But ethanol also releases more nitrogen oxide, a key element of smog, and it evaporates more easily than gasoline, causing still other air-pollution problems, Early says. On balance, ethanol certainly isn't worse than gasoline, Early says, but it's not that helpful from a smog perspective. The government also has identified ethanol plants as significant air polluters but has reached deals to curtail plant emissions. And some scientists now say that ethanol also can complicate cleaning up gasoline spills. It certainly is not all that benign, said Tom Curtis, an official of the American Water Works Association, which represents professionals involved in the drinking-water-supply business. Curtis cites research indicating that gasoline plumes containing ethanol degrade more slowly in groundwater than plumes of only gasoline. Toxic chemicals such as benzene in ethanol-blended gasoline disperse more widely and take longer to degrade. These studies are far from conclusive and should be pursued further, says Monte Shaw, a spokesman for the Renewable Fuels Association, which represents the ethanol industry. But he maintains that because ethanol replaces ten percent of the gasoline, there is also less benzene and other toxic chemicals --- normally found in gasoline --- going into the water. And, he says, refiners can blend their gasoline in ways to counter the air-pollution concerns. Ethanol supporters emphasize that it is a motor fuel made in America and that it is not a fossil fuel particularly from another country. That, they argue, makes it perfect for improving the country's energy security, as well as helping to fight global warming because greenhouse gases mostly come from the burning of fossil fuels. Critics counter that ethanol does not come through as advertised on either of those points. Ethanol does not increase energy security, says David Pimentel, an agricultural ecologist at Cornell University. It remains a fact that it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than you get out of it. Pimentel says ethanol, when made from corn, should not even be considered a renewable fuel --- and actually provides little help on global warming. It takes large amounts of nonrenewable natural gas, coal and oil to make fertilizer and grow the corn, process ethanol and transport it in trucks and rail cars. However, studies by the Agriculture Department and the Energy Department's Argonne National Laboratory conclude a 34 percent overall energy gain in using ethanol. Most of the energy used in making ethanol comes from coal or natural gas, domestic sources instead of petroleum-based gasoline that relies on imports, they note. Michael Wang, a co-author in both the Argonne and Agriculture Department studies, maintains that Pimentel used old data that do not take into account substantial improvements in corn farming and ethanol processing. All of that, he contends, has reduced energy use. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYxFAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: Despite Unresolved Environmental Problems, U.S. Senate May Allow Double Amount Of Ethanol In Gas
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/21036/story.htm Opposition slows ethanol in US Senate energy bill USA: June 4, 2003 WASHINGTON - U.S. Senate action on a plan to double ethanol production may be delayed, the Energy Committee chairman said this week, because opponents threatened to file dozens of amendments to water it down. Backed by Republican and Democratic leaders of the Senate, the current proposal would mandate use of at least 5 billion gallons (22.73 billion liters) of renewable fuels such as ethanol in 2012. Ethanol, distilled from corn and used as an additive for cleaner-burning motor fuels, is popular among farm state lawmakers and those looking for ways to stretch oil supplies. Nine senators from the East and West Coasts decry the plan as a way to enrich the corn-growing Midwest. Opponents say it is a costly, unnecessary additive and that there are other ways to make less-polluting fuels. Senate Energy Committee chairman Pete Domenici, a New Mexico Republican, said he hoped for an accord with foes to limit the amendments challenging the renewable fuels standard. Democrats Charles Schumer of New York and Dianne Feinstein of California were believed to have 100 amendments ready to block mandatory use of renewable fuels. Feinstein has suggested ethanol use should be optional. Majority Leader Bill Frist, Tennessee Republican, said on the Senate floor he expected substantial progress on a broad energy bill this week, which offers incentives and tax breaks for oil drilling, conservation and alternative energy. Ethanol, first introduced as a home-grown response to the oil embargoes of the 1970s, has boomed in recent years. Under the Senate's renewable fuels language, use of methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE), a rival to ethanol, would be phased out in four years. MTBE is banned in some states because it can pollute groundwater. The House has passed its own version of the energy bill. It also sets a 5 billion-gallon mandate for renewable fuels with a target of 2015 and would allow MTBE use to continue. Some 2.13 billion gallons (9.68 billion liters) of U.S. ethanol were distilled last year. Capacity will exceed 3 billion gallons (3.64 billion liters) by the end of 2003. Story by Charles Abbott REUTERS NEWS SERVICE Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] etanol + metanol
hai keith thanks for your suggestion i'm from indonesia, ok i think i will try it and i will tell the result. thx Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail! http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/aM1XQD/od7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions
hmmm, but how do you get it cold enough? put your oil in the freezer? you could do it I suppose if your batches were small. you'd get alot of fatty solids dropping out of solution too I bet. - Original Message - From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:03 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions pressure to speed the flow and a plate the water freezes to -- or a sieve Just ideas Kirk -Original Message- From: Terry Lohnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:00 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions I suppose, but how do you get the ice out? That and oil flows REALLY slowly at freezing temperatures, making it hard to filter. - Original Message - From: kirk To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:10 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions This is a shot in the dark -- but-- freezing is a less energy intensive way of distilling water. Would it work for drying oil? Kirk -Original Message- From: Christopher Tan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 8:34 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions Hello Terry, I am also new to the group. I have no idea how much those salts cost. If they will cost less than the energy needed to dry used oil, I guess that's an idea worth trying. Do you have any information regarding their disposal? or, will they just be reheated to remove the water? But then again, that will cost energy. Regards, Christopher -Original Message- From: lohnestd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 1:43 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions Hello, This is my first submission, and I'm just getting started in biodiesel, but have a strong industry and chemicals background. Has anyone ever used concentrated salt solutions (like Lithium Bromide or Lithium Chloride) to dry WVO or finished biodiesel? I've done quite a bit of looking with no luck. Both of these chemicals have a strong affinity for water and are basically unreactive. The only drawback I could see would be that salt solutions tend to rust carbon steel. Thanks, Terry Lohnes Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/2003 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYxFAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/
Re: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions
yes, but it's not hygroscopic, it wouldn't boost the water grabbing power of the wash. - Original Message - From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:03 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions How about quicklime? (CaO) Less corrosive than Calcium chloride hydrate. Kirk -Original Message- From: Terry Lohnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:01 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions Christopher, I found a salt that may work. You know that stuff you may use to salt your driveway in the winter, or the pellets in those little closet dehumidifiers you see at the hardware store? Well, that is made primarily of calcium chloride, which has the same love for water that lithium bromide does. It's very low on the toxicity scale, only requires precautions you use anyway when dealing with the other chemicals involved in this process, and will continue absorbing water for a long time. The best thing is that it's cheap. The dehumidifier granules are about a dollar per 13oz (384g) bag at Home Depot under the brand-name DRI-Z-AIR (MSDS sheet at http://www.drizair.com/safdata.htm) There are some precautions that need to be taken, however. This and other salts react exothermically (release heat) when dissolved in water. So you need to wear gloves, an apron, and probably a face hood wouldn't be a bad idea. The above website also addresses disposal and cleanup, which aren't too involved. I would think you would want to get the initial solution as concentrated as possible to maximize water absorbtion. I have some of this stuff, and I'll see how it works with a test batch. more to come, Terry --- Original Message - From: Christopher Tan To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 7:34 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions Hello Terry, I am also new to the group. I have no idea how much those salts cost. If they will cost less than the energy needed to dry used oil, I guess that's an idea worth trying. Do you have any information regarding their disposal? or, will they just be reheated to remove the water? But then again, that will cost energy. Regards, Christopher -Original Message- From: lohnestd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 1:43 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions Hello, This is my first submission, and I'm just getting started in biodiesel, but have a strong industry and chemicals background. Has anyone ever used concentrated salt solutions (like Lithium Bromide or Lithium Chloride) to dry WVO or finished biodiesel? I've done quite a bit of looking with no luck. Both of these chemicals have a strong affinity for water and are basically unreactive. The only drawback I could see would be that salt solutions tend to rust carbon steel. Thanks, Terry Lohnes Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/2003 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYxFAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM
[biofuel] Your choice Was: Any Questions??
I dunno, I'm not really sure why most are the coppertops. Been wondering for years about that. Just one of those mysteries of life I guess. Yes, dropping out. Problem is although not there yet ... the dropper outers are being ever-so-slowly, yet surely ... defined as either terrorist and/or survivalist whacko ... or whatever you want to call it. Making dropping out slowly ... slowly slowly ... something that is actually going to trigger you being literally ARRESTED and handcuffed. Until finally, when all is done being a non-slave ends up being something that can get you arrested. Know what I mean?? Then at that point, the average Joe has a life of wage minus rent equals zero retire with pension equals zero .. totally surrounded with being arrested if you attempt any other lifestyle way of living. The Corporate CEO's dream status of his lowly slaves er employees (got to use the politically correct term now). Work for zero ... or be arrested. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Obviously you and I see it clearly. So why are most of the population like the coppertops in Matrix? It was obvious to me decades ago that you have to drop out if you wish to terminate slave status. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYxFAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Sweet Wankel diesels...
Check the p/w ratio on these puppies! (go to development) http://www.wankel-rotary.com/ Yee-haa Regards, Edward Beggs BES MSc Neoteric Biofuels Inc. http://www.biofuels.ca Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/aM1XQD/od7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Particulates
See: Figure 4.4, Page 128 http://members.shaw.ca/biofuels/ebeggsthesis.pdf Hi Ed Tried to view your work various times using Netscape but always problems. Just tried now for the first time with Explorer - perfect ! Viewing now, very interesting. Thanks James Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get a FREE REFINANCE QUOTE - click here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/2CXtTB/ca0FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Particulates
The ACREVO study? http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm Thanks for the link Keith. I wonder if anyone using SVO has retarded the injector timing in order to reduce NOx emissions? The reason I ask is that I'm attempting to set up a series of SVO trials on a range of public transport vehicles and wonder if I should be thinking of injection retardation as part of the trial. I get the impression that it is PAH content (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) of particulate emissions that cause cancer. Can anyone confirm this? James Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions
Ever seen CaO and water placed together? I think the CaO certainly involves the water in a reaction. -Original Message- From: Terry Lohnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 10:24 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions yes, but it's not hygroscopic, it wouldn't boost the water grabbing power of the wash. - Original Message - From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:03 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions How about quicklime? (CaO) Less corrosive than Calcium chloride hydrate. Kirk -Original Message- From: Terry Lohnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:01 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions Christopher, I found a salt that may work. You know that stuff you may use to salt your driveway in the winter, or the pellets in those little closet dehumidifiers you see at the hardware store? Well, that is made primarily of calcium chloride, which has the same love for water that lithium bromide does. It's very low on the toxicity scale, only requires precautions you use anyway when dealing with the other chemicals involved in this process, and will continue absorbing water for a long time. The best thing is that it's cheap. The dehumidifier granules are about a dollar per 13oz (384g) bag at Home Depot under the brand-name DRI-Z-AIR (MSDS sheet at http://www.drizair.com/safdata.htm) There are some precautions that need to be taken, however. This and other salts react exothermically (release heat) when dissolved in water. So you need to wear gloves, an apron, and probably a face hood wouldn't be a bad idea. The above website also addresses disposal and cleanup, which aren't too involved. I would think you would want to get the initial solution as concentrated as possible to maximize water absorbtion. I have some of this stuff, and I'll see how it works with a test batch. more to come, Terry --- Original Message - From: Christopher Tan To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 7:34 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions Hello Terry, I am also new to the group. I have no idea how much those salts cost. If they will cost less than the energy needed to dry used oil, I guess that's an idea worth trying. Do you have any information regarding their disposal? or, will they just be reheated to remove the water? But then again, that will cost energy. Regards, Christopher -Original Message- From: lohnestd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 1:43 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions Hello, This is my first submission, and I'm just getting started in biodiesel, but have a strong industry and chemicals background. Has anyone ever used concentrated salt solutions (like Lithium Bromide or Lithium Chloride) to dry WVO or finished biodiesel? I've done quite a bit of looking with no luck. Both of these chemicals have a strong affinity for water and are basically unreactive. The only drawback I could see would be that salt solutions tend to rust carbon steel. Thanks, Terry Lohnes Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/2003 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL
RE: [biofuel] Your choice Was: Any Questions??
I would depart for the hinterlands before assuming arrest status. There is life outside corporate America. Kirk -Original Message- From: csakima [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 10:48 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Your choice Was: Any Questions?? I dunno, I'm not really sure why most are the coppertops. Been wondering for years about that. Just one of those mysteries of life I guess. Yes, dropping out. Problem is although not there yet ... the dropper outers are being ever-so-slowly, yet surely ... defined as either terrorist and/or survivalist whacko ... or whatever you want to call it. Making dropping out slowly ... slowly slowly ... something that is actually going to trigger you being literally ARRESTED and handcuffed. Until finally, when all is done being a non-slave ends up being something that can get you arrested. Know what I mean?? Then at that point, the average Joe has a life of wage minus rent equals zero retire with pension equals zero .. totally surrounded with being arrested if you attempt any other lifestyle way of living. The Corporate CEO's dream status of his lowly slaves er employees (got to use the politically correct term now). Work for zero ... or be arrested. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Obviously you and I see it clearly. So why are most of the population like the coppertops in Matrix? It was obvious to me decades ago that you have to drop out if you wish to terminate slave status. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get a FREE REFINANCE QUOTE - click here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/2CXtTB/ca0FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Despite Unresolved Environmental Problems, U.S. Senate May Allow Double Amount Of Ethanol In Gas
June 3, 2003 Despite Unresolved Environmental Problems, U.S. Senate May Allow Double Amount Of Ethanol In Gas H. JOSEF HEBERT, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Politicians hail ethanol, the corn-based gasoline additive, as a boon to the environment and a way to reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil. But ethanol also comes with its own environmental problems, and scientists disagree over whether producing ethanol uses more fossil energy than it replaces. The Senate this week will decide whether to double the amount of ethanol to be used in gasoline, to 5 billion gallons a year. Critics say the plan is just one more subsidy for corn growers. But supporters say the proposal is essential to an energy policy that is less reliant on oil. It will reduce our dependence on foreign oil. It will protect the environment, says Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, Rep.-Tennessee. There is skepticism about those claims. Ethanol's benefits are a mixed bag, says Blake Early, an American Lung Association lobbyist. Ethanol's clearest air-quality benefit is that it significantly cuts carbon monoxide, he says. But ethanol also releases more nitrogen oxide, a key element of smog, and it evaporates more easily than gasoline, causing still other air-pollution problems, Early says. On balance, ethanol certainly isn't worse than gasoline, Early says, but it's not that helpful from a smog perspective. The government also has identified ethanol plants as significant air polluters but has reached deals to curtail plant emissions. And some scientists now say that ethanol also can complicate cleaning up gasoline spills. It certainly is not all that benign, said Tom Curtis, an official of the American Water Works Association, which represents professionals involved in the drinking-water-supply business. Curtis cites research indicating that gasoline plumes containing ethanol degrade more slowly in groundwater than plumes of only gasoline. Toxic chemicals such as benzene in ethanol-blended gasoline disperse more widely and take longer to degrade. These studies are far from conclusive and should be pursued further, says Monte Shaw, a spokesman for the Renewable Fuels Association, which represents the ethanol industry. But he maintains that because ethanol replaces ten percent of the gasoline, there is also less benzene and other toxic chemicals --- normally found in gasoline --- going into the water. And, he says, refiners can blend their gasoline in ways to counter the air-pollution concerns. Ethanol supporters emphasize that it is a motor fuel made in America and that it is not a fossil fuel particularly from another country. That, they argue, makes it perfect for improving the country's energy security, as well as helping to fight global warming because greenhouse gases mostly come from the burning of fossil fuels. Critics counter that ethanol does not come through as advertised on either of those points. Ethanol does not increase energy security, says David Pimentel, an agricultural ecologist at Cornell University. It remains a fact that it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than you get out of it. Pimentel says ethanol, when made from corn, should not even be considered a renewable fuel --- and actually provides little help on global warming. It takes large amounts of nonrenewable natural gas, coal and oil to make fertilizer and grow the corn, process ethanol and transport it in trucks and rail cars. However, studies by the Agriculture Department and the Energy Department's Argonne National Laboratory conclude a 34 percent overall energy gain in using ethanol. Most of the energy used in making ethanol comes from coal or natural gas, domestic sources instead of petroleum-based gasoline that relies on imports, they note. Michael Wang, a co-author in both the Argonne and Agriculture Department studies, maintains that Pimentel used old data that do not take into account substantial improvements in corn farming and ethanol processing. All of that, he contends, has reduced energy use. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get a FREE REFINANCE QUOTE - click here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/2CXtTB/ca0FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Captive Audience
http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/7952/view/print Mega Media Madness John Nichols is the editorial page editor for the Capital Times. Josh Silver is managing director of Free Press. The Federal Communications Commission voted 3 to 2 to meet the demands of big communications corporations. Rigorously opposed by consumer, religious, labor, community and public interest groups across the country, FCC Chairman Michael Powell warped the decision-making process to deliver a result allowing conglomerates to buy up hundreds of newspapers, television and radio stations in communities across the United States. Competition, diversity and local content will be undermined in local markets and nationally. [more] Special Report Behind Closed Doors: Top Broadcasters Met 71 Times With FCC Officials (WASHINGTON, May 29, 2003) The nation's top broadcasters have met behind closed doors with Federal Communications Commission officials more than 70 times to discuss a sweeping set of proposals to relax media ownership rules, the Center for Public Integrity has found. The private sessions included dozens of meetings between broadcasters and the agency's five commissioners and their top advisors. A June 2 vote is scheduled on the controversial proposals, which critics fear will touch off a major new round of media consolidation. FCC officials held five private sessions with Consumers Union and the Media Access Project, the two major consumer groups working on the issue, since the proposals first surfaced eight months ago. (Updated May 30, 2003) http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=526L1=10L2 =10L3=0L4=0L5=0 Well Connected: FCC and Industry Maintain Cozy Relationship on Many Levels (WASHINGTON, May 22, 2003) -- The three largest local phone companies control 83 percent of home telephone lines. The top two long distance carriers control 67 percent of that market. The four biggest cellular phone companies have 64 percent of the wireless market. The five largest cable companies pipe programming to 74 percent of the cable subscribers nationwide. Those findings come from the Center for Public Integrity's unprecedented examination of the telecommunications industry, the centerpiece of which is a first-of-its-kind, 65,000 record, searchable database containing ownership information on virtually every radio station, television station, cable television system and telephone company in America. For the full report and database visit the Well Connected Web site. http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=524L1=10L2 =10L3=0L4=0L5=0 http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/7942 Captive Audience Molly Ivins is the former editor of the liberal monthly The Texas Observer. She is also author of the bestselling book, Molly Ivins Can't Say That Can She?. This is a gross scandal. The Center for Public Integrity has a stunning study out on the concentration of ownership in telecommunications. The even more stunning news is that the Federal Communications Commission, which theoretically represents you and me, is about to make all of it even worse. And behind this betrayal of the public trust is nothing but rotten, old-fashioned corruption. It's the old free-trip-to-Vegas ploy, on a grand scale. The Public Integrity people examined the travel records of FCC employees and found that they have accepted 2,500 trips, costing nearly $2.8 million over the past eight years, paid for by the telecommunications and broadcast industries, which are, theoretically, regulated by the FCC. The industry-paid travel is on top of about $2 million a year in official travel paid for by taxpayers. According to the center, FCC commissioners and agency staffers attended hundreds of conventions, conferences and other events all over the world, including Paris, Hong Kong and Rio de Janeiro. They were put up at luxury hotels such as the Bellagio in Las Vegas and ferried about by limo. Vegas was the top destination -- 330 trips -- New Orleans second with 173, then New York at 102 and London with 98 trips. Why London, you may ask. Well, do ask. So here's the result of our regulators getting all these nice freebies where they schmooze with the industry guys. The three largest local phone companies control 83 percent of home telephone lines. The two top long-distance carriers control 67 percent of that market. The four biggest cellular phone companies have 64 percent of the wireless market. The five largest cable companies pipe programming to 74 percent of the cable subscribers nationwide. The FCC is what is known in government circles as a captive agency. It has been captured by the industry it is supposed to regulate. Those who work at captive agencies come to identify with their industry and believe their function is to service it, not regulate it. The center also found that the FCC increasingly relies on industry-generated data to justify sweeping
Re: [biofuel] Sweet Wankel diesels...
Very sweet! I like the fuel selection: Heavy Fuel/ Diesel / F-34 or F-40 Jet-A / F-54 / F-75 / JP-4 / JP-5 / JP-8 Greg H. - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 23:41 Subject: [biofuel] Sweet Wankel diesels... Check the p/w ratio on these puppies! (go to development) http://www.wankel-rotary.com/ Yee-haa Regards, Edward Beggs BES MSc Neoteric Biofuels Inc. http://www.biofuels.ca Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions
Question.Doesn't oil solidify at a higher temperature than water? Regards, Christopher -Original Message- From: Terry Lohnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 11:00 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions I suppose, but how do you get the ice out? That and oil flows REALLY slowly at freezing temperatures, making it hard to filter. - Original Message - From: kirk To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:10 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions This is a shot in the dark -- but-- freezing is a less energy intensive way of distilling water. Would it work for drying oil? Kirk -Original Message- From: Christopher Tan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 8:34 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions Hello Terry, I am also new to the group. I have no idea how much those salts cost. If they will cost less than the energy needed to dry used oil, I guess that's an idea worth trying. Do you have any information regarding their disposal? or, will they just be reheated to remove the water? But then again, that will cost energy. Regards, Christopher -Original Message- From: lohnestd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 1:43 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions Hello, This is my first submission, and I'm just getting started in biodiesel, but have a strong industry and chemicals background. Has anyone ever used concentrated salt solutions (like Lithium Bromide or Lithium Chloride) to dry WVO or finished biodiesel? I've done quite a bit of looking with no luck. Both of these chemicals have a strong affinity for water and are basically unreactive. The only drawback I could see would be that salt solutions tend to rust carbon steel. Thanks, Terry Lohnes Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Funding Petroleum Warlords
Funding Petroleum Warlords by Tim Castleman www.drive55.org There seems to be little disagreement that US military aggression in the Middle East is related to petroleum consumption. There also is little disagreement that US dollars fund this military aggression, and that US citizens are the largest market for petroleum in the world. Just how big is the US petroleum market? Personal Consumption Expenditures are about $160 billion per year.* Divided by 300 million US citizens, that works out to $533 per year, or $44.44 per month for each man, woman, and child in America. A typical family of 5 will spend about $222 each month for petroleum products. Consider your own experience -- does that sound about right? Remember to include oil and the other fluids your vehicles consume. The TOTAL cost of personal transportation will include two other expenses: Transportation Services and Motor Vehicles and Parts. These add $680 billion per year to the expenditures. Divided by 300 million US citizens, that works out to $2,266 per year, or $189 per month for each man, woman, and child in America. A typical family of 5 will spend about $944 each month, in addition to the $222 for petroleum, on personal transportation. These figures DO NOT take into account the amount they are spending to have food and consumer goods trucked in from all over the world -- these are just the PERSONAL transportation expenses. What if we convinced everyone to reduce their consumption by 20%? They would save $528 per year on petroleum alone! By reducing consumption of petroleum by 20%, we would also reduce our reliance on imported petroleum, and therefore our need to wage war in the Middle East. That would mean $32 billion less the petroleum warlords would get each year from US citizens. With a $32 billion cut in revenue, campaign spending would be reduced significantly, greedy executives would cut their own salaries last, and the current political system would be altered. Studies show that slowing down to 55 miles per hour (MPH) will reduce fuel consumption by 20% to 50%. As individuals, we can do our part by simply obeying existing speed limits and never exceeding 55 MPH. Even more can be done by refusing to buy gas-guzzling SUVs and using public transportation instead. WE CAN DISARM THE PETROLEUM WARLORDS by refusing to fund them. Visit www.drive55.org to learn more, and Take The Pledge to obey existing speed limits, never exceeding 55 MPH, and urging Congress to restore the national 55 MPH speed limit. * US Department of Transportation, Bureau of Transportation Statistics. http://www.bts.gov/transtu/indicators/Economy/html/Personal_Spending_On_Transportation.html = Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel: SUV: 4,591 Air: 4,123 Bus: 3,729 Car: 3,672 Train: 2,138 Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics http://199.79.179.77/publications/nts/index.html It is not a sign of good health to be well adjusted to a sick society. __ J. Krishnamurti (1895-1986) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Funding Petroleum Warlords
It's nice to hear an intelligent, levelheaded voice out there. Not only to drive 55, but to keep vehicles maintained, and tires properly inflated. That alone costs up to 30% or more of any vehicles consumption. Ridding ourselves of the idea gotta have a monster to drive will significantly help as well. Not only SUV's, but old tanks (lincolns, old cadillacs, ect) which were never built with gas savings of any imaginable kind should see the recycling yard. Maybe a campaign to try to teach people to buy a car or vehicle to suit there needs instead of ego would help. A single, city-dwelling person does not need a 1-ton dully (double back wheels) pickup truck to drive 2 blocks to get groceries. I'm no expert in the field of energy or fuels, but it boils down to common sense. I know of at least one high school graduate (this last weekend) who told his mother that he was taking the advise to buy a sensible car for college. On the lighter side, that's one down, a nation to go! At least there's a number of people out there trying to do the same thing. Thanks! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield
Hi Chris Hi Kieth, What mean is if you use the value from the site plus excess of 60%, you will get 194.43 mL. Compare that value to what I derived from Sap (182.2), we see that we have almost the same amount except that I didn't go through calculating molecular mass, etc. Okay, got it now... trouble is the Sap value then sort of decides the excess amount for you. I'd rather deal with it as a separate matter as it should be varied according to circumstances (unlike the stoichiometric amount). I use very little excess amounting to only 1.8% to make an even 200mL. Sorry for my English. I hope I made it clear this time. Your English is just fine, Chris - it's entirely better than my Tagalog! :-) Regards Keith Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 8:50 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield Hi Chris It's good to hear from you, Kieth. :-) Bit erratic these days, sorry... I use very little excess in my trials. Using the value from journey to forever of 121.52 mL for soy and add 60% excess, we 194.43 mL. I don't think our values differ at all. You got it right using experimentally derived amout of excess. I just went around the guess work. Chris I don't understand this - are we using different terms for the same thing (or the same terms for different things?) ? In the above para, I'd put 121.52 mL for soy as the stoichiometric quantity, with 60% the excess required to push the process towards completion - the stoichiometric quantity is constant, the excess varies somewhat, depending, as that page explains: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_meth.html How much methanol? But you say: I use very little excess in my trials. You mean excess beyond the 60% excess? It doesn't take that much excess to drive the reaction forward. The excess only comes in the later part of the reaction to increase concentration and the chances of collission. Let me rephrase my statement. 200mL MeOH/Liter is a good all around ratio to start with for any type of oil, fresh or used. Biodiesel is a good solvent for oil so you should be able to wash it even if conversion is not complete. Maybe not if you're left with a whole bunch of unconverted monoglycerides to emulsify it. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html Bubblewashing 101: Girl Mark - Emulsification - Emulsion Explained I actually use 250mL for coconut and palm. Sap determine MeOH volume for coco is 247.4 and palm is 145. It was discussion here some time ago on how much methanol is required for coconut oil that led to Christian and I doing the How much methanol? page - what was quite clear was that the advice that x amount of methanol achieved 98% conversion but y amount only 95% or less was obviously simplistic: it depends on the oil. Regards Keith Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:47 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield Hello Chris 18-19% stoichiometric quantity for soy and corn? That's 6-7% more than other estimates, and would mean that none of us is using sufficient methanol excess - which we are doing, judging from the results and the tests we subject the product to. We wouldn't be getting near completion if these figures are accurate, we wouldn't be able to wash the stuff for one thing, it'd just emulsify. No washing problems here though, nor any other problems. You said earlier that 200ml/l is a good all-round ratio, but on your figures here for soy, that would leave you with only 1.8% excess, nowhere near enough. And how would that square with your figures for coconut and palm oil? Or am I reading you wrong? Best Keith Soybean Oil SAP No: 185-195(mean: 190) Vol. MeOH: 182.2 mL + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 70.78 mL Vol. BD Yield: 1112.28 mL Corn Oil SAP No: 196 Vol. MeOH: 187.54 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 78.00 Coconut Oil SAP No: 258 Vol. MeOH: 247.4 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 102.9 Palm Oil SAP No: ~247 Vol. MeOH: 245 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 101.94 Assuming complete conversion and no loss, yields should be the above values. I have found them consistent with my experiments. Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Christopher Tan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 12:24 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] RE: How much methanol should you use? SAP values give how many moles of fatty acid are in fresh oil. Even if the oil is used, the moles of fatty acid should remain the same, except, of coarse, for the addition of FREE fatty acid from the food cooked. You just need a little more to add to the Sap
RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions
It would be nice to know the heat of fusion to calculate the process. If the oil solidifies first that is no problem. You do need to control the rate at which you are solidifying so you don't get inclusions. Other than that it sounds like it may be feasible. Kirk -Original Message- From: Christopher Tan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 10:47 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions Question.Doesn't oil solidify at a higher temperature than water? Regards, Christopher -Original Message- From: Terry Lohnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 11:00 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions I suppose, but how do you get the ice out? That and oil flows REALLY slowly at freezing temperatures, making it hard to filter. - Original Message - From: kirk To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:10 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions This is a shot in the dark -- but-- freezing is a less energy intensive way of distilling water. Would it work for drying oil? Kirk -Original Message- From: Christopher Tan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 8:34 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions Hello Terry, I am also new to the group. I have no idea how much those salts cost. If they will cost less than the energy needed to dry used oil, I guess that's an idea worth trying. Do you have any information regarding their disposal? or, will they just be reheated to remove the water? But then again, that will cost energy. Regards, Christopher -Original Message- From: lohnestd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 1:43 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions Hello, This is my first submission, and I'm just getting started in biodiesel, but have a strong industry and chemicals background. Has anyone ever used concentrated salt solutions (like Lithium Bromide or Lithium Chloride) to dry WVO or finished biodiesel? I've done quite a bit of looking with no luck. Both of these chemicals have a strong affinity for water and are basically unreactive. The only drawback I could see would be that salt solutions tend to rust carbon steel. Thanks, Terry Lohnes Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives:
Re: [biofuel] Removing water from oil - was: steam versus oil heating for commercial plants
This is interesting because Ken P. boils off his water for his Eth/Meth process and has no issues with increased FFA's. Ken, maybe I missed something wilst I was over, so please correct me if that is the case. James Slayden On Sat, 24 May 2003, Keith Addison wrote: Hello Andreas, Bill Just to add that it can be difficult to remove the water content from animal fats in used oil. Andreas, you raise a good point with water-soluble contaminants (which can also throw out titration results). In some severe cases I've found it useful to wash the oil first - a hot bubblewash: heat the oil to about 70 deg C, add 50% of water at near boiling point, bubblewash for half an hour or longer while maintaining heat at 70 deg C, settle and cool, drain off water, then dry oil as usual. This has the advantage of removing the water-solubles, whereas, as you say, simply heating the oil to remove the water will leave them behind, and possibly some water with them. But it's quite energy-intensive. I like Girl Mark's advice here - find better oil! Bill, you are right (in principle) - allthough this process is dangerous because: - Water in oil can suddenly start boiling (like a mini-explosion) and spit oil around. To avoid this keep stirring the oil. - Water on the bottom (where it usually is because of the higher density) underlies a higher pressure then at the top - thus the boiling point rises according to the height of oil above. So the boiling point may not be 10 degrees Celsius but above. - If mixtures of water and other substances occur (in our case e.g. salt or sugar solved from the french fries etc.) the boiling point is significantly above 100 degrees. This and the fact that you need (some, not much) more energy to heat up to the boiling point you usually prefer to just heat the oil to 60 - 70 degrees and then wait for the water to separate (which it usually does in about the same amount as if you would boil it). If it does not, you will have the same problems removing it by vaporiszing because in this case the oil will be additionaly impurified with all the stuff that has been solved in the water and that's now left behind because the vapour is pure water... One point on energy use in comparing the two main dewatering methods is that heating to 60-70 deg C and settling loses the heat, whereas with boiling it off, while using lots of energy, you can at least catch it on the way down and start processing the oil once it's cooled to 55 deg C, saving some of the extra energy. But more heat carries the danger of creating more FFAs, which adds to boiling being the less preferred method. Hope this helps... Me too! :-) Best Keith Andreas Ohnsorge William Clark eufclarkTo: biofuel@yahoogroups.com @bellsouth.net cc: Subject: Re: [biofuel] steam versus oil heating for commercial plants 23.05.2003 04:21 Please respond to biofuel Hello Andreas, Perhaps you could help me with a chemistry question. When water boils, the temperature of a solution will not exceed 100 deg. C until all water is boiled off, correct? If oil containing water is heated, does this still apply? More to the point, can the absence of water be determined by a rise in oil temp beyond 100 deg. C? I truly have no clue if any of this is right. Your help or others would be most appreciated. Bill Clark snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Click Here! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions
Hello Chris, Terry, My professor once told us we could make 99% proof alcohol by throwing in some CaCl2, (calcium chloride) to distilled alcohol (95%) and filtering out the calcium chloride. Never got around to try it though. Have you ever encountered this in industry terry? Regards Ken C. Hello Ken Do an archive search for calcium chloride (including quotes), you'll find quite a lot. http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel See also: http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#ethylester Ethanol biodiesel - see: Anhydrous ethanol See The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel by S.W. Mathewson, Chapter 12 -- Drying the Alcohol, Drying with lime. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual12.html Best Keith --- Christopher Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Terry, I am also new to the group. I have no idea how much those salts cost. If they will cost less than the energy needed to dry used oil, I guess that's an idea worth trying. Do you have any information regarding their disposal? or, will they just be reheated to remove the water? But then again, that will cost energy. Regards, Christopher -Original Message- From: lohnestd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 1:43 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Drying using concentrated salt solutions Hello, This is my first submission, and I'm just getting started in biodiesel, but have a strong industry and chemicals background. Has anyone ever used concentrated salt solutions (like Lithium Bromide or Lithium Chloride) to dry WVO or finished biodiesel? I've done quite a bit of looking with no luck. Both of these chemicals have a strong affinity for water and are basically unreactive. The only drawback I could see would be that salt solutions tend to rust carbon steel. Thanks, Terry Lohnes Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Despite Unresolved Environmental Problems, U.S. Senate May Allow Double Amount Of Ethanol In Gas
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/21036/story.htm Opposition slows ethanol in US Senate energy bill USA: June 4, 2003 WASHINGTON - U.S. Senate action on a plan to double ethanol production may be delayed, the Energy Committee chairman said this week, because opponents threatened to file dozens of amendments to water it down. Backed by Republican and Democratic leaders of the Senate, the current proposal would mandate use of at least 5 billion gallons (22.73 billion liters) of renewable fuels such as ethanol in 2012. Ethanol, distilled from corn and used as an additive for cleaner-burning motor fuels, is popular among farm state lawmakers and those looking for ways to stretch oil supplies. Nine senators from the East and West Coasts decry the plan as a way to enrich the corn-growing Midwest. Opponents say it is a costly, unnecessary additive and that there are other ways to make less-polluting fuels. Senate Energy Committee chairman Pete Domenici, a New Mexico Republican, said he hoped for an accord with foes to limit the amendments challenging the renewable fuels standard. Democrats Charles Schumer of New York and Dianne Feinstein of California were believed to have 100 amendments ready to block mandatory use of renewable fuels. Feinstein has suggested ethanol use should be optional. Majority Leader Bill Frist, Tennessee Republican, said on the Senate floor he expected substantial progress on a broad energy bill this week, which offers incentives and tax breaks for oil drilling, conservation and alternative energy. Ethanol, first introduced as a home-grown response to the oil embargoes of the 1970s, has boomed in recent years. Under the Senate's renewable fuels language, use of methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE), a rival to ethanol, would be phased out in four years. MTBE is banned in some states because it can pollute groundwater. The House has passed its own version of the energy bill. It also sets a 5 billion-gallon mandate for renewable fuels with a target of 2015 and would allow MTBE use to continue. Some 2.13 billion gallons (9.68 billion liters) of U.S. ethanol were distilled last year. Capacity will exceed 3 billion gallons (3.64 billion liters) by the end of 2003. Story by Charles Abbott REUTERS NEWS SERVICE Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Diesel Boats
This was not an engine that GM had Trouble with. You are referring to the car 5.7 engine that many consider to be a gas engine converted to diesel fuel. while that may be true i believe they did beef up the block some along with the heads it was not enough and along with the short pushrods those engines did not reliably last. As to their toughness they were marginal at best. The engine you refer too is basically an industrial type engine that is very long lasting with the proper maintenance. The only real pain in the neck problem I can think of is that some of them (most depending on who you ask) leak oil. Usually a small seep here and there that just gets messy after a while. I dont know if it was the gaskets or what but they get dirty in trucks. They can be noisy but they are a working mans engine. A little detail to the sound deadening system can usually quiet things down acceptably. Bryan Fullerton White Knight Gifts www.youcandobusiness.com - Original Message - From: Terry Wilhelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Diesel Boats It is a very loud engine. One thing about them is if anything (i.e. broken keyway) happens to the positive displacement roots type blower (not the turbos) it will not start or even run. We have had this problem with the engine in our dump truck. In a truck that doesnt bother me, but on the water I'd be nervous. But first, they are LOUD engines with that blower screaming. During my US Navy years they were trying hard to get away from them since there were alot of better applications out there. Regards, Terry Wilhelm Jack Kenworthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a question for any mechanic-types out there - particularly marine-diesel familiars. I am thinking about purchasing a 40 foot diesel work boat for a combined aquculture and dive operation and I am wondering if any knows about: 1 - this engine in particular: General Motors 8V71 twin turbo rated at 450 HP? I know that GM has had some trouble with diesel engines in the past just wondering if anyone has experience or knowledge pertaining to this model in particular. 2 - Special considerations for using biodiesel in marine applications? Thanks for the help. Best, Jack Jack Kenworthy Sustainable Systems Director The Cape Eleuthera Island School 242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax www.islandschool.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Diesel Boats
You can never have enough Horsepower.. LOL My '83 Chevy Sport Van with a turbo charged 6.5 can still put some of the newer doges and Fords to shame.. Bryan Fullerton White Knight Gifts www.youcandobusiness.com - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Diesel Boats Common, reliable, used in all sorts of marine applications, buses, etc. Known as Screaming Green Leakers I believe, for their noteworthy tendency to run and run, but leak lube oil from various places. Just keep a rag handy. Pretty heavy on fuel use...my 40' tug had a Perkins 354-6, under 100HP, yet could tow a small barge well, and was very economical. Do you really need all that horsepower?? Edward Beggs http://www.biofuels.ca On Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 06:09 AM, Jack Kenworthy wrote: I have a question for any mechanic-types out there - particularly marine-diesel familiars. I am thinking about purchasing a 40 foot diesel work boat for a combined aquculture and dive operation and I am wondering if any knows about: 1 - this engine in particular: General Motors 8V71 twin turbo rated at 450 HP? I know that GM has had some trouble with diesel engines in the past just wondering if anyone has experience or knowledge pertaining to this model in particular. 2 - Special considerations for using biodiesel in marine applications? Thanks for the help. Best, Jack Jack Kenworthy Sustainable Systems Director The Cape Eleuthera Island School 242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax www.islandschool.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/CNxFAA/FGYolB/TM - ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield
Hi Kieth, What mean is if you use the value from the site plus excess of 60%, you will get 194.43 mL. Compare that value to what I derived from Sap (182.2), we see that we have almost the same amount except that I didn't go through calculating molecular mass, etc. I use very little excess amounting to only 1.8% to make an even 200mL. Sorry for my English. I hope I made it clear this time. Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 8:50 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield Hi Chris It's good to hear from you, Kieth. :-) Bit erratic these days, sorry... I use very little excess in my trials. Using the value from journey to forever of 121.52 mL for soy and add 60% excess, we 194.43 mL. I don't think our values differ at all. You got it right using experimentally derived amout of excess. I just went around the guess work. Chris I don't understand this - are we using different terms for the same thing (or the same terms for different things?) ? In the above para, I'd put 121.52 mL for soy as the stoichiometric quantity, with 60% the excess required to push the process towards completion - the stoichiometric quantity is constant, the excess varies somewhat, depending, as that page explains: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_meth.html How much methanol? But you say: I use very little excess in my trials. You mean excess beyond the 60% excess? It doesn't take that much excess to drive the reaction forward. The excess only comes in the later part of the reaction to increase concentration and the chances of collission. Let me rephrase my statement. 200mL MeOH/Liter is a good all around ratio to start with for any type of oil, fresh or used. Biodiesel is a good solvent for oil so you should be able to wash it even if conversion is not complete. Maybe not if you're left with a whole bunch of unconverted monoglycerides to emulsify it. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html Bubblewashing 101: Girl Mark - Emulsification - Emulsion Explained I actually use 250mL for coconut and palm. Sap determine MeOH volume for coco is 247.4 and palm is 145. It was discussion here some time ago on how much methanol is required for coconut oil that led to Christian and I doing the How much methanol? page - what was quite clear was that the advice that x amount of methanol achieved 98% conversion but y amount only 95% or less was obviously simplistic: it depends on the oil. Regards Keith Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:47 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Follow up:How much MeOH to use/Glycerol VolumeYield Hello Chris 18-19% stoichiometric quantity for soy and corn? That's 6-7% more than other estimates, and would mean that none of us is using sufficient methanol excess - which we are doing, judging from the results and the tests we subject the product to. We wouldn't be getting near completion if these figures are accurate, we wouldn't be able to wash the stuff for one thing, it'd just emulsify. No washing problems here though, nor any other problems. You said earlier that 200ml/l is a good all-round ratio, but on your figures here for soy, that would leave you with only 1.8% excess, nowhere near enough. And how would that square with your figures for coconut and palm oil? Or am I reading you wrong? Best Keith Soybean Oil SAP No: 185-195(mean: 190) Vol. MeOH: 182.2 mL + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 70.78 mL Vol. BD Yield: 1112.28 mL Corn Oil SAP No: 196 Vol. MeOH: 187.54 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 78.00 Coconut Oil SAP No: 258 Vol. MeOH: 247.4 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 102.9 Palm Oil SAP No: ~247 Vol. MeOH: 245 + excess Vol. Glycerol Yield: 101.94 Assuming complete conversion and no loss, yields should be the above values. I have found them consistent with my experiments. Regards, Chris -Original Message- From: Christopher Tan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 12:24 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] RE: How much methanol should you use? SAP values give how many moles of fatty acid are in fresh oil. Even if the oil is used, the moles of fatty acid should remain the same, except, of coarse, for the addition of FREE fatty acid from the food cooked. You just need a little more to add to the Sap determined stoichiometric ratio to account for the additional ffa's. Since I am talking about stoichiometric quantity of fatty acid in the oil, and therefore the MeOH needed, I'd say that Sap determined stoich values are more accurate regardless of the process. It says so in the article that, it doesn't make much sense anyway if the stoichiometric ratio is wrong in the first place. By the
