Re: [Biofuel] guns
There are nothing to support this BS argument, on the contrary, all statistics and practical experience says the opposite. Jeremy, The only statistics that might have any real and substantive connections to peaceful society is strict gun control and, even much more, a high average education level. Your argument is atypical for the opposite. Concealed weapon (or any hand gun) is a very poor protection against most aggressive animals or snakes. In his situations a good shotgun is the best and those are hard to carry in your pocket. Hakan At 12:53 AM 8/7/2005, you wrote: A well armed society is a polite society. People are much nicer when they don't know who has a gun. God bless Texas!!! - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Garth Kim Travis To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 5:35 PM Subject: [Biofuel] guns Greetings, I received the following email and I have not been able to find that it is a hoax, yet. I do know that passing a law to allow concealed weapons in Texas really cut the drive by shootings and random violence to where we rarely hear about it now. What I find amazing is that a mere 1500 permits have been issued, not many in a population of 30 million+. While I will admit that being a old hippie and carrying a gun may sound like an oxymoron, I do have wild hogs on my land as well as water moccasins, both good reasons to go armed. Bright Blessings, Kim GUNS Here's a thought to warm some of your hearts... From: Ed Chenel, A police officer in Australia Hi Yanks, I thought you all would like to see the real figures from Down Under. It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 %; Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 %; Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 % (yes, 44 %!). In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 %. (Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not! and criminals still possess their guns!). While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed. There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. You won't see this on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the State Assembly disseminating this information. The Australian experience proves it. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens. Take note Americans, before it's too late! FORWARD TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL LIST. [ I DID ] DON'T BE A MEMBER OF THE SILENT MAJORITY. BE OF THE VOCAL MINORITY WHO WON'T LET THIS HAPPEN IN THE U.S.A ~ -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: PLEASE READ - MODERATOR'S MESSAGE - was Re: [Biofuel] guns
Keith, Sorry, I was going through email in sequential order and did not see this until after I posted. I think you are right in stopping this thread now, there are not more to say on it. Hakan At 07:36 AM 8/7/2005, you wrote: No more guns, thankyou. This is a subject that, on a global list with quite a large (and vocal) American contingent, can only end in flames and breakdown, as it's done here a few times before, with nothing achieved. What was achieved on the previous occasions was that the US pro-gun lobby was left without a case and no legs to stand on, and it made no difference at all, they went right on believing what they want to believe. It's the same with the abortion debate in the US (we've just narrowly avoided another bout of that) and with several other such highly polarised but peculiarly US issues: arguing about it is pointless, nothing is gained, it just makes a lot of noise, and it turns people off. So let's drop this thread now, if you please, and even if you don't please. One more thing - there's one good destination for emails that come with footnotes such as these: FORWARD TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL LIST. ... everyone who receives this email forward it to everyone in their address book. TRASH THEM! Thankyou. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question was The myths of Hiroshima
Hi all, I passed by the local used everything store and saw an old style blowtorch. It looked like it was in working order and cost next to nothing. I immediately though now that would make a nice preheater to boil off any excess water in my waste vegetable oil. If this is in the archives I´m sorry but it´s early and I haven´t had my morning cup yet. What the heck did they use to fuel these suckers? Do you think it can run on BioD or glycerine byproduct? Thanks, Tom From: Garth Kim Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:40:16 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of HiroshimaGreetings Tom,Yes, many of us would not be here. Canadian forces were also training for that invasion. I was always taught that it was the code of death before dishonor that made the bombing necessary. I am not saying that is correct, but I wonder how scared of Russia anyone would have been by that time in the war. As I understand it, one of the things the Russian people hated America for was the long wait before they joined, which allowed Russia to be seriously depleted. I do understand that the Japanese were already commandeering cooking pots etc. for metal to make weapons, so they must have known the end was in sight, but that had been going on for long enough to scare many people into believing they would not surrender, period. It is easy to start myths during war time, people are so scared and the average person is not told much of the truth for good reasons, many times. I see it today, so many people are so scared of terrorism and have no idea of how it started. How does one educate a population that is now in it's second or third generation of ignorance of history, science, math, philosophy and common sense?Bright Blessings,KimAt 01:23 PM 8/5/2005, you wrote: Hi All,Although I'm in agreement about the Enola Gay exhibit, I will have to disagree about the use of the bombs. As slightly more modern barbarians we really have no idea of the mindset of Japan's WWII government. Perhaps Keith can give his insights since he lives close by. My reading of that history is that Japan's military had a stranglehold on the government. That their way was the Bushido way. There's a lot of death before dishonor in that line of thinking. My father related many stories to me of the kamakazi attacks during the invasion of Okinawa. That they were ineffective does not discount their willingness to die. There were a lot fewer prisoners taken in the Pacific war. Some of that was certainly racism on our side but a fairly good piece of it wasn't. I've spoken with many veterans from that campaign. Many reasonable men told me quite frankly that the Japanese would rather die than surrender. If they could die taking a few of their enemy with them all the better. If this willingness to die was prevelent in their armed forces I think one can make the jump that if the home islands were attacked that our casualties would be very high. Perhaps not the million so often quoted but if it was only a quarter of that, many of us who are currently alive would never have been born. My father was in training for the invasion when the bombs were dropped. He told me everyone on board his troop transport breathed a sigh of relief when they realized they would not have to invade. I personally have no use for nuclear technology or nuclear weapons and am fully against them. But the truth be told, I'm here today because they were used and we haven't had a world war since thier invention.my two cents for the day,Tom Irwin From: Appal Energy [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:21:01 -0300 Subject: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-bird5aug05,0,760322.story The myths of Hiroshima By Kai Bird and Martin J. Sherwin, KAI BIRD and MARTIN J. SHERWIN are coauthors of "American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer," published earlier this year by Knopf. SIXTY YEARS ago tomorrow, an atomic bomb was dropped without warning on the center of the Japanese city of Hiroshima. One hundred and forty thousand people were killed, more than 95% of them women and children and other noncombatants. At least half of the victims died of radiation poisoning over the next few months. Three days after Hiroshima was obliterated, the city of Nagasaki suffered a similar fate. The magnitude of death was enormous, but on Aug. 14, 1945 — just five days after the Nagasaki bombing — Radiadio Tokyo announced that the Japanese emperor had accepted the U.S. terms for surrender. To many Americans at the time, and still for many today, it seemed clear that the bomb had ended the war, even "saving" a million lives that might have been lost if the U.S. had been required to invade mainland Japan. This powerful narrative took root quickly and is now deeply embedded in our historical sense of who we are as a nation. A decade
RE: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima
look, this whole thing about an invasion of japan costing a million american lives is utterly ridiculous. What puzzles me is that America had planned the invasion of the Japanese islands as far back as 1920. Why? What did they have that the US wanted? That’s probably the reason they did not want the Russians moving into that territory and moved quickly to end the war. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.2/65 - Release Date: 07/08/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima
Hi All, All right Todd, if you want to deal in semantics let me rephrase, It is my opinion that I would not be here today if the bombs had not been dropped. Now I am an environmental scientist but I´m also a closet historian. Before moving to Uruguay I had a considerable library on military history ( close to 400 volumes). I had read each of those at least once some many more times. No I have no idea of the true mindset of the Japanese military government because I´ve never spoke with any of them directly. But these were the same folks that used biological weapons in Manchuria, turned captured women into sex slaves, thought of themselves as being superior to most other asians, had an estimated (low) 100,000 asian civilians, British, Canadian and Australian POW´s die while under their "management" building the the railroad that the film Bridge Over the River Kwai made famous and whose forceshad something called the banzai charge.Now their leaders MAY have beeen willing to surrender but not without terms like no warcrime trials and we get to stay in control. But they probably were not willing to accept unconditional surrender terms. As for those guys who dropped the bombs I can understand if their minds wish to alter the chronology of the leaflets. It must still weigh heavily on the minds that they individually were responsible for so much death and destruction. As to the leaflets I agree with what you have said. They were dropped after the bomds to convince the population and the government to surrender. It was a useful tactic considering we only had two bombs at the time and had just used them up. I would not shed too many tears for old Oppy. There were plenty of well respected scientists who told him what he was doing was wrong. He did it anyway. He was the one in charge. It was his ego that fueled its building.I too, would like to know what went on at the Potsdam conference. I believe it was mostly a British and Soviet agenda that was agreed too as Roosevelt was jsut abou dead. What I really would like to know for sure is if Roosevelt knew of the Pearl Harbor attack. I have a strong suspician he did. I´m fairly certain that Churchill did as they had broken the Japanese naval code. Did Churchill tell his biggest financer, weapons producer, and ally of the upcoming attack? Interesting stuff, no?! Tom Irwin From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:53:38 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima But the truth be told, I'm here today because they were used and we haven't had a world war since thier invention.Using the logic you initiated prior to that statement Tom, that we really have no idea of the mindset of Japan's WWII governmentit's a bit of a reach that you can declare your existance to be a pure product of the use of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs.If, as you say, we don't know their mindset, then you cannot say that they wouldn't have surrendered upon the very same day that they did.My tendency is to believe that more discovery should be conducted on the events at Potsdam, and the mindsets of those participants before, during and after, in order to come to a better understanding of what direction peace talks were headed and what window may have been on the event horizon.Rather funny this. I was listening to NPR yesterday and two of the crew members of the Enola Gay were being interviewed. One stated that he had no remorse and used the dropping of warning leaflets in advance of the bombing as part of his justification rationale.Yet the authors of "American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer," declare those leaflet droppins as non-events until after both bombs had been dropped. If something so simple can be twisted into a falsehood of long historical standing, it's more than probable that there remain a number of other myths and fabrications that lend long shadow to the truth.My guess is that the book is one of those "must reads" if a person is expected to achieve a "fair and balanced" perspective, or at least a more apprised perspective, of what honestly took place in that time period.What's the adage? Those who win the wars write the history books?Todd SwearingenTom Irwin wrote: Hi All, Although I'm in agreement about the Enola Gay exhibit, I will have to disagree about the use of the bombs. As slightly more modern barbarians we really have no idea of the mindset of Japan's WWII government. Perhaps Keith can give his insights since he lives close by. My reading of that history is that Japan's military had a stranglehold on the government. That their way was the Bushido way. There's a lot of death before dishonor in that line of thinking. My father related many stories to me of the kamakazi attacks during the invasion of Okinawa. That they were ineffective does not discount their willingness to die. There were a lot fewer prisoners taken in the Pacific war. Some of that was
Re: [Biofuel] Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in history
Hi All, I grow a little weary of revisionist history. Yes, there was a political side to the war. When hasn´t there been. Yes, it was brutal and callous. Again, when hasn´t it been. Yes, the history is written by the victors. But let´s not forget that we´re not talking about the best humans ever created on the other side. Hirohito, Hitler, and even our ally Stalin were noton the humanitarian side of the leger. That Stalin had his eye on empire and extending his power is undeniable. If the bombs limited that and ended the war without invasion I still feel they fall into the catagory of necessary evil. That the Japanese people sufferedis also undeniable but there´s a lesson for today´s problems in their past suffring. Don´t let your leaders do evil things or else you, as mostly innocent civilians, are going to pay a heavy price. My countrymen would be wise to learn this valuable lesson. Sincerely, Tom Irwin From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:52:38 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in history I have a feeling that I'm going to get hammered by some people on this list. So, I want to make sure that everyonenotices that the post went with no comments directly from me. If the title was supposed to have a certain shock value, it worked on me. My general observation is that after reading through it carefully, I came to the conclusion that, if the quotesare accurate,the author was correct in calling it a terrorist attack because of it's motives and desired effect. MikeMichael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Worst terror attacks in history August 6 and August 9 will mark the 60th anniversaries of the US atomic-bomb attacks on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In Hiroshima, an estimated 80,000 people were killed in a split second. Some 13 square kilometres of the city was obliterated. By December, at least another 70,000 people had died from radiation and injuries. Three days after Hiroshima's destruction, the US drooped an A-bomb on Nagasaki, resulting in the deaths of at least 70,000 people before the year was out. Since 1945, tens of thousands more residents of the two cities have continued to suffer and die from radiation-induced cancers, birth defects and still births. A tiny group of US rulers met secretly in Washington and callously ordered this indiscriminate annihilation of civilian populations. They gave no explicit warnings. They rejected all alternatives, preferring to inflict the most extreme human carnage possible. They ordered and had carried out the two worst terror acts in human history. The 60th anniversaries will inevitably be marked by countless mass media commentaries and speeches repeating the 60-year-old mantra that there was no other choice but to use A-bombs in order to avoid a bitter, prolonged invasion of Japan. On July 21, the British New Scientist magazine undermined this chorus when it reported that two historians had uncovered evidence revealing that “the US decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki ... was meant to kick-start the Cold War [against the Soviet Union, Washington's war-time ally] rather than end the Second World War”. Peter Kuznick, director of the Nuclear Studies Institute at the American University in Washington stated that US President Harry Truman's decision to blast the cities “was not just a war crime, it was a crime against humanity”. With Mark Selden, a historian from Cornell University in New York, Kuznick studied the diplomatic archives of the US, Japan and the USSR. They found that three days before Hiroshima, Truman agreed at a meeting that Japan was “looking for peace”. His senior generals and political advisers told him there was no need to use the A-bomb. But the bombs were dropped anyway. “Impressing Russia was more important than ending the war”, Selden told the New Scientist. While the capitalist media immediately dubbed the historians' “theory” “controversial”, it accords with the testimony of many central US political and military players at the time, including General Dwight Eisenhower, who stated bluntly in a 1963 Newsweek interview that “the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing”. Truman's chief of staff, Admiral William Leahy, stated in his memoirs that “the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender.” At the time though, Washington cold-bloodedly decided to obliterate the lives of hundreds of thousands of men, women and children to show off the terrible power of its new super weapon and underline the US rulers' ruthless preparedness to use it. These terrible acts were intended to warn the leaders of the Soviet Union that their cities would suffer the same fate if the USSR attempted to stand in
Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima
( That is more causalities than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined - an estimated 103,000 ) Playing a little loose with the facts Greg? Official Japanese figures at the time put the death toll at 118,661 civilians. But later estimates suggest the final toll was 140,000 of Hiroshima's 350,000 population, including military personnel and those who died later from radiation. Many have also suffered long-term sickness and disability. Nagasaki: Nearly 74,000 were killed and a similar number injured. http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/6/newsid_3602000/3602189.stm or http://titan.iwu.edu/~physics/Hiroshima/ Just where is it that you derived your estimate from? Todd Swearingen Greg and April wrote: I don't think that you are looking at the picture in the same light as the planners were. Yes, Omaha beach was bad.But lets look at more realistic numbers that planners from the invasion were looking at: In 2 months 38,000 Americans wounded, 12,000 killed or missing, more than 107,000 enemy killed, and perhaps 100,000 civilians perished, in the invasion of a tiny little island called Okinawa.( That is more causalities than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined - an estimated 103,000 ) Over 26,000 Allied causalities and over 21,800 Japanese causalities for an island less than 8 sq miles in size, in little over 1 month.The name of that island - Iwo Jima. It was with these casualty numbers, that the planners were figuring 1,000,000 from the off shore bombardment to the final surrender. Greg H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 14:30 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima look, this whole thing about an invasion of japan costing a million american lives is utterly ridiculous. that would be four times the american combat deaths in the entire war. the landing at omaha beach is usually described as one of the most horrifically deadly battlefield environments of the conflict, because of the difficult terrain and the very dense defenses. roughly a thousand american soldiers were killed, just shy of 3% of the forces that landed there which is pretty high. if you were to assume similarly difficult conditions for an invasioin of japan (which is by no means a given), more than 30 million troops would have to be involved. . . . -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] guns
Greetings, Rattlesnakes are not aggressive and I never kill them. They head the other direction when they hear you coming, so why kill them? They do kill rats and mice that carry disease, so the snakes are welcome unless they decide to become egg poachers, then unfortunately I have to kill them. I only kill snakes that attack with no provocation, while you are sitting still and they find you. As I said, I keep the guns on my farm. I generally carry my 380 in a shoulder holster, easier to work with than a shot gun. Bright Blessings, Kim At 10:03 PM 8/6/2005, you wrote: Well... that email forward is older than and about as silly as both the blue and the red state email forwards. Generally a shovel id enough to take care of rattlesnakes. I used to keep a 12 gauge single shot snake gun in my personal pick up. I used to go to Wichita, KS quite often. After watching the 10 PM news one night I walked out to the truck and brought the shot gun in house. As a situation could possibly develop in where I was breaking the law, even if I was minding my own business. And yes I would want more than that shovel in case of boar attack, but the wild boars have yet to make it this far North and West. Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Willow Tree Research
Hi All, We are working with willow and biomass boilers in Ireland and running very sucessful in schools and large scale district heating please check following websites: www.nps.ie www.ruralgeneration.com government in Ireland has also taken excise duty off vegetable oil this week yipee ;^) dino is dying long live biofuels *** dD Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: Hello Tony Hello To All, Does anyone remember a willow tree farm renewable energy research project post? If yes, could you please re-post. I can't seem to find it in the archives. Thanks, Tony Marzolino Might it be among these? http://www.mail-archive.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?method=andformat=shortc onfig=biofuel_sustainablelists_orgrestrict=exclude=words=willow Search results for 'willow' or: http://snipurl.com/gmi1 Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Find the home of your dreams with eircom net property Sign up for email alerts now http://www.eircom.net/propertyalerts ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Neurobiology of Mass Delusion
Thanks for the feedback. This group always has a serious tone to it. On the bright side I garner information from a variety of points of view, more than I ever imagined. This is a crash course for me in international communication. Thankfully it is in English, it is the only language I know. I have learned so much about alternative fuels and even a bunch about life outside of the ranch. Back and forth I go, Ethanol or Bio-diesel? Thank goodness I am in the learning and planning stages. Research the "laws of thermodynamics" and compare them to the cultural imperative for "economic growth." See if you can recognize and then resolve the tension between the two in your mind. Do I have to? Can't I just smile and nod? And nod off again? No, I was wrong you do have humor! You might notice it's from the Energy Bulletin 11jan05, it's about energy, and it's very pertinent. Easy there. I noticed. No question in my mind why this thread is important to a biofuels groups. Huh? I'm a journalist, I didn't know this. Like I said, Im new here. Not only are you talented writer, it seems that you are also the most prolific poster here as well. Let me take another greennie leap of reason, This group is your baby? I write for people, whether they're Americans or not or from other OECD nations or not is their problem and not my main concern, at least not this time. You people are always making me look stuff up just so I can have an halfway intelligent correspondence. But hey thats fine, I thought this group was going to be a bunch of old hippies talking about fixing up their VW buses to run on hemp oil. The OECD producesinternationally agreed instruments, decisions and recommendationsto promote rules of the game in areas where multilateral agreement is necessary for individual countries to make progress in a globalised economy. Sharing the benefits ofgrowthis also crucial as shown in activities such as emerging economies, sustainable development,territorial economyand aid. Hehe, I must have made you digress again. Sorry Keith. To tell you the truth I cant see what this has to do with my comments. I will try to be more clear next time. This is the paragraph before the one you quoted: "Those who know about "Peak Oil," monetary debts, climate change, militarism, overpopulation, corporatism, soil loss, aquifer depletion, persistent organic pollutants, deforestation, etc., realize we are at a major historical juncture now. Since we know it is past time to change our culture, the question we have is whether most people will bother to listen and create the necessary transition in a rational, non-violent manner." I'd say that has quite a lot to do with many of the things many of us are trying to do here, wouldn't you agree? Yes I don't know about the rest of the counties in the civilized world, What other world is there? Would you care to define the uncivilized world? Are you asking me? I'd be honored to explain. But I think you are baiting me here. Maybe what's truly uncivilized about the world is the system of economic relationships or mis-relationships and outright exploitation that results in your macho-guys having that $2,000 to waste on hubcaps in the first place, whether in cash or credit, because the other side of the same coin is that maybe 2,000 families elsewhere that are among the billion-odd who have to live on less than $1 a day in a world of abundance didn't get to eat that day as a result. Maybe that's stretching it a little, but not by much, not beyond the truth, and not nearly as much as the comfortable assumption that this kind of waste exists in a vacuum and doesn't have that kind of consequence, or the equally comfortable but more obnoxious assumption that the one who has the $2,000 to waste has it because he deserves it and so he can do whatever he likes with it, because he's a better human being than the one who doesn't have it because he's not smart enough. See you did get my point. That's why I write. Me too. but here in the USA credit card companies want consumers to waste money on automobile embellishments. I guess the banks think supporting the auto industry bolsters the economy. My feeling is the extravagant hubcaps bought with credit cards at 18% interest will expedite the collapse of this ridiculous lifestyle. There is a line in a song from a group from your neck of the woods I'm living in Japan right now but I don't actually have a neck of the woods. (Not just a quibble, no home, no nation.) For some reason I thought you were in England. I have an acquaintance who recently moved his family back to Japan. Whats the draw? He is one of the people that got me thinking about alternative fuels. He does the (CNG) Compressed Natural Gas vehicle conversion. that goes like this: "I have these amazing powers of observation" The enlightened amongst us can sit back and watch crisis after crisis accumulate
Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country - Tobin tax and comments
Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike Joseph Stiglitz (and my father, who is a development economist) make the following points: Globalization is not going away, nor can we wish it away. I don't know of anybody who does wish it away. I don't know why you might think that I'd like to - because I said this? * I do think there is a desire to wish it away or at least in its current form. I made this remark more as a generality - not as specific response to your comments. I personally believe that most of Stiglitz's comments are on target. Globalization has largely been hijacked for the benefit of rich countries and at the expense of poor countries. I do think there are tangential benefits and that some developing countries have benefited, albeit at a cost - environmental damage comes to mind. It all comes down to the same thing, the one single reason that development and aid are needed in the first place: the reason poverty and hunger exist on such a vast scale in a world of plenty is an inequitable world economic system. Any effort to change that at any level might accomplish more than many bilateral aid programs do. Hence the ongoing worldwide protests, it's a major item on the agenda of the Other Superpower. The Other Superpower, when it protests at WTO or G8 meetings, is invariably dubbed anti-globalisation by the mainstream media, though that is not their message, they're not anti-globalisation, they're anti corporate globalisation, a very different matter, not an inevitability, and it will indeed go away. I think that's a point we both agree on - I think the mainstream media always manages to find the looniest participents and get them on TV. There is a world of well-reasoned Globalization thought, but it often seems to be drowned out, or overshadowed by a few boneheaded hooligans smashing things and creating mayhem at a protest. I do not particularly think corporate globalisation is a good thing, except for corporations and perhaps those buying really cheap things at WalMart. That's what I mean when I say globalization has been hijacked for the benefit of the wealthy. The key issue now is how to effect change? What steps can be taken to move globalization to more equitable form? I believe one way is to hold corporations accountable. With all due respect, and I am very grateful for and impressed by amount of work you put into this list, as well as your well-reasoned commentary, I fear that unless there is a coordinated and large response to the current iteration of globalization, the corporations will have their way. I think we have articulated what the problem is: an inequitable world economic system - the current system - globalization is a large piece - continues to support this. What is the framework for change? It won't come from the US. Finland maybe, but the US, at least for now, is hopeless. - More later - have to go meet on of my Biodiesel buddies! There's quite a lot about Stiglitz in the list archives, including this: http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/8835 TomPaine.com - The Way Ahead From Globalization and Its Discontents, by Joseph E. Stiglitz Today, globalization is being challenged around the world. There is discontent with globalization, and rightfully so. Globalization can be a force for good: the globalization of ideas about democracy and of civil society have changed the way people think, while global political movements have led to debt relief and the treaty on land mines. Globalization has helped hundreds of millions of people attain higher standards of living, beyond what they, or most economists, thought imaginable but a short while ago. The globalization of the economy has benefited countries that took advantage of it by seeking new markets for their exports and by welcoming foreign investment. Even so, the countries that have benefited the most have been those that took charge of their own destiny and recognized the role government can play in development rather than relying on the notion of a self-regulated market that would fix its own problems. But for millions of people globalization has not worked. Many have actually been made worse off, as they have seen their jobs destroyed and their lives become more insecure. They have felt increasingly powerless against forces beyond their control. They have seen their democracies undermined, their cultures eroded. If globalization continues to be conducted in the way that has been in the past, if we continue to fail to learn from our mistakes, globalization will not only not succeed in promoting development but will continue to create poverty and instability. Without reform, the backlash that has started will mount and discontent with globalization will grow... [more] I think the most realistic approach is to work hard to put as human a face as possible on it. Work to make it more equitable, and keep track of companies who
[Biofuel] How do I make Ethanol for car use?
I own a fairly big piece of land, in which I grow oranges, and a lot of themfall from the trees and rot on the ground.I have been told that making ethanol from those rotting oranges can be quitesimple.I can also have access to an almost unlimited supply of wood chips andsawdust from a nearby lumber yard, from which I read Methanol can beobtained, orthose can be turned on fireto run the furnaces to make the Ethanol, right? The main use I will have for either the Ethanolor the Methanol is to fuela small fleet of cars that I use for traveling back and forth to where theoranges are.The 4 cars combined consume about 50~60 gallons of fuel permonth, each. I have found in various places on the Web that Brazil has manyvehicles that come from the factory ready to use alcohol as the fuel, butnobody seems to have many details of the systems. I'm looking forwardfor any suggestions to learn how to produce my own fuel at reduced costs, in order to make my operation as self-sustainable as possible. Thank you in advance! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] RE: jelly
Hi Keith More Thanks for you response. I tried the world famous chop stick titration technique. Wow what a difference in my titration #. I did a 1 ltr test in a soda bottle, with excellent result almost instantly. But here is where I got into trouble. The next batch was 20 liters I had some methoxide mixed from a prior batch that was also a failure and I couldn't figure what to do with the toxic mix so I tried to dilute it to 10 g.p. liter. I did my mixing of the 20 liters. As it cooled it turned into what looks like lard. I felt that I may have overdosed it. So I then took some test bottles and put 20% failure oil and 75% fresh wvo set it in the sun to melt/ liquefy. (105 deg F) shook it hard also a 50/50 mix in the hot state it seamed to separate better 25/75 than the 50/50 but as the sun went down and it cooled the 25/75 started to jell and the glycerol layer vanished but the 50/50 looked much better with a glycerol layer jelled at the bottom. I m not asking for a fix. But is the jelly a typical sign of over dosing? I have a problem with disposing of the mess I have made if there is a way to salvage it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:58 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution Hi Derick May be there is some help for me out there. I have made lots and lots of test batches. Most of them bad not good. One border line. And one 15 gal batch with fairly good results. I have used all the options given for titration in the J.T. Forever. Test strips work ... poorly, if at all, and are not recommended by JtF. but after introducing it to the mix I find if I need to add more solution the color will not change so I need to add strip after strip as I add the solution accuracy is probably off by the time I get done P.H. meter a good one I found to be about the same pH meters work well, especially if it's a good one, you shouldn't be having problems. and I have used phenolphthalein and get excellent response but im no chemist Very few of us are. can anyone tell me how much phenolphthalein to use on the test I have been using 2 drops @ 1% phenolphthalein. The instructions from J.T.F say use 1% phenolphthalein solution (1.0w/v%). If you can please help. Thanks Derick You say: The instructions from J.T.F say use 1% phenolphthalein solution (1.0w/v%). The instructions at JtF say: Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution. Dissolve 1 gm of lye in 1 litre of distilled water (0.1% w/v lye solution). In a smaller beaker, dissolve 1 ml of the cooled oil in 10 ml of pure isopropyl alcohol. Warm the beaker gently by standing it in some hot water, stir until all the oil dissolves in the alcohol and turns clear. Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution. Using a graduated syringe, add 0.1% lye solution drop by drop to the oil-alcohol-phenolphthalein solution, stirring all the time, until the solution starts to turn pink and stays that way for 10 seconds. -- From: Biodiesel from waste oil http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodwvo See also: More about lye How much lye to use? Basic titration Better titration Accurate measurements pH meters Phenolphthalein pH meters vs phenolphthalein http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye Are your scales, measuring equipment and measuring techniques up to scratch? Best wishes Keith -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Probst, Peter Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:44 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution Thanks to all who provided sources and altarnatives for the phenolphthalein! Now I can start using the 75+ gallons of WVO that's been sitting around my garage. Pete ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima
Japan was trying to surrender. The bomb wasn't for Japan, it was to send a message to the other superpower, the Soviet Union. It also was used in part to justify the largest military expense in the history of the nation. Chris K Cayce, SC - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima I don't think that you are looking at the picture in the same light as the planners were. Yes, Omaha beach was bad.But lets look at more realistic numbers that planners from the invasion were looking at: In 2 months 38,000 Americans wounded, 12,000 killed or missing, more than 107,000 enemy killed, and perhaps 100,000 civilians perished, in the invasion of a tiny little island called Okinawa.( That is more causalities than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined - an estimated 103,000 ) Over 26,000 Allied causalities and over 21,800 Japanese causalities for an island less than 8 sq miles in size, in little over 1 month.The name of that island - Iwo Jima. It was with these casualty numbers, that the planners were figuring 1,000,000 from the off shore bombardment to the final surrender. Greg H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 14:30 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima look, this whole thing about an invasion of japan costing a million american lives is utterly ridiculous. that would be four times the american combat deaths in the entire war. the landing at omaha beach is usually described as one of the most horrifically deadly battlefield environments of the conflict, because of the difficult terrain and the very dense defenses. roughly a thousand american soldiers were killed, just shy of 3% of the forces that landed there which is pretty high. if you were to assume similarly difficult conditions for an invasioin of japan (which is by no means a given), more than 30 million troops would have to be involved. . . . -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Chain Mails
...my $.02 about chain mails. There are two things contained in chain mails thatannoy me: 1.)FORWARD TO EVERYONE ON YOUR EMAIL LIST. 2.) IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH THIS MESSAGE, DELETE IT. The second statement is particularly annoying because (IMO) it politely implies that you have the right to have an opposing opinion, as long as you don't share it. Last week, you patiently allowed me to vent abouta particularemail that I received and the argument that followedafter I chose not to simply delete it. FYI: I received a reply from the woman I argued with, over the chain mail about Muslim males. After accusing her of being apologetic toward racists, she told me about herself: "We have taken in families (of six!!!) who have fallen onto hard financial times until they could get back on their feet. Currently, we have a 23 year old woman who was a victim of physical, sexual and emotional child abuse, with all its attending disorders, living with us for the next couple of years so she can have some love and a sense of belonging and safety. I take my boys to visit nursing homes, we do occasional mission work for food banks and homeless shelters and the like." Despite her efforts and concern for the less fortunate, she was obviously influenced by the veiled hate mail.Since most of it gets circulated without being challenged, it seems to be working. This woman finally looked at my argument and references supporting it andthanked me for putting things into perspective. I was shocked. I expected more hate mail from a woman who Ibelieved to be aracist. In my opinion, if you getchain mail thatencourages suspicion or even hate toward a certain group of people and it comes with a list of addresses to where it was sent, you should respond to it and make an effort to discredit the sender. Last week I sent a reply tochain mail that was supposed to have been written by Andy Rooney (I'm sure you've run into that too).Those are the easiest, since it only takes a link to www.breakthechain.com or similar web site to discredit it. Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New Fair Trade Model Needed and ecological engineering
Sustainable global economy need new fair trade model based on the global energy, economy and ecology.Several interesting work in the ecological engineering model can help to find this fair tarde model.by ODUM there can be social tesuname can bee forseen as the big turbulance not only for the developing world but also the develping one as the poor country money has novalue and hence their product too. sd Pannirselvam On 8/5/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2266/ News July 28, 2005 New Fair Trade Model Needed Sweeping changes in the export of textiles have forced a difficult reappraisal among U.S. sweatshop monitors: How best to help workers in a relentless industry? By Mischa Gaus Workers at the Youngor Group textile factory in China. The expiration of the worldwide quota system that regulated the flow of textiles between the global south and north, now six months old, has created massive job losses across the Americas, Africa and parts of South and Southeast Asia. The quotas restricted the number of textiles and garments each of about 150 countries could import to the United States and the European Union by type. The United Nations Development Program estimated 1 million jobs may be lost as a result. Following shifts in production to China, Vietnam and India, exports to the United States of some goods from those countries increased by as much as 1,200 percent this year. Sweatshop monitoring groups say other areas handicapped by geography and poor infrastructure, like Swaziland, saw nearly half their factories closed. The quotas existed for 30 years to protect rich nations' garment industries from low-wage competition in poor countries. Rich nations gave up quotas a decade ago during World Trade Organization negotiations in return for other favorable rules, and quotas have been phasing out since then. January's quota termination accelerated the trend in the already cutthroat business that demands annual price cuts from its contracted factories-2 to 3 percent each year over the last decade, according to a U.S. mill spokesman. Some estimates say the phase-out could allow apparel corporations to force prices down by as much as 30 percent, making life much worse for apparel workers who still have jobs. Factories find a way to meet the price or they don't, says Scott Nova, executive director of the factory-monitoring group, Worker Rights Consortium. One of the ways they're going to meet it is by screwing their workers. Brands know this and they ultimately bear the moral responsibility for causing it. The wrenching changes in the apparel industry vexes groups like the Consortium, which has spent four years focusing on individual factories to help garment workers build independent unions, obtain health benefits, and curb blacklisting, discrimination and physical violence against workers who join unions or attempt to organize them. But having friends in the north was no immunity. Several of the factories where the Consortium helped secure large gains have closed or idled workers as managers moved production out. As in the rest of the industry, much of the work fled to China, where independent unions are banned. Undeterred, the Consortium has partnered with Hong Kong-based NGOs that operate in the mainland. With backing from brands that contract with Chinese factories, the group plans to hold labor and safety trainings inside shops-and below the government's radar. That could nurture independent organizing and, in time, nascent unions. The crucial question: How long before the Chinese government, which has tolerated some spontaneous worker organizing recently, would see the trainings as a threat? Trying to work on labor issues in China is like trying to dance on a nightclub dance floor, says Clark University sociology professor Bob Ross, who writes on sweatshop issues. You've got just a certain amount of space to wiggle in, and it's not a lot. Ultimately, anti-sweatshop advocates say the kind of factory-by-factory struggle fought thus far and envisioned in China cannot expand enough to counter the unyielding imperatives of capital. Without structural change within the industry-such as year-to-year stability in contracts, ending the ceaseless price cuts demanded by brands, and forcing brands to pay prices that reflect the actual cost of providing workers a decent wage and dignified workplace-lasting and meaningful gains for a significant number of garment workers are impossible. We've had to jump from factory solidarity campaign to factory solidarity campaign where things arise, says Allie Robbins, a national organizer with United Students Against Sweatshops. We're seeing the need for a new strategy. The power of anti-sweatshop activists resides in universities that sell rights to license goods with their logos. Students have forced their
Re: [Biofuel] First Mixer
Greetings to all and Keith Recently I hve the aporunity to participate Germa nad Brasil joint conference held in Fortaleza , N, Brazil on BioD.Af any one from the list needs more infomation we can send more details. One of the BASF proposal is to make to perpare metylhydroxide and distribute for the small scale BioD. Can this method will really help the remote rural people of the developing world or will increase the gap.C an this will be reality. sd Pannirselvam. On 8/5/05, Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings, Garth is building us our first test mixer and he has a question. Will the methylhydroxide damage brass? We have a collection of brass fitting and were thinking about using them. Bright Blessings, Kim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Pagandai V Pannirselvam Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN Departamento de Engenharia Química - DEQ Centro de Tecnologia - CT Programa de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQ Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitário CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil Residence : Av Odilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 Capim Macio EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil Telefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal210 32171557 Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557 Cellular 84 88145083 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: thermal and biological depolymerization
Hello Brian and Keith Biological depolymerization is as much effective as thermal one via mushroom growth compared to thermal depolymerization as this involves enzymatic combustion reaction mechanism with out energy input .The reaction of enzymatic combustion has been discovered recently found to play major role by the fungi of the mushroom family.Thus mushroom production coupled with enzymatic celluase process can make ethanol from cellulose much more sustainable as the celluase enzymes can be reused soon can be mad avaialble plenty. sd Pannirselvam P.V On 8/5/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Forgot about this... http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg45810.html [Biofuel] 'Changing World Technologies' Plan to Turn Garbage into Oil Best Keith Hello Brian Ok, I promised the list admin I would look in the archives before I asked questions about new subjects. I did find some stuff about thermal depolymerization TDP. http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2003/Anything-Into-Oil1may03.htmht tp://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2003/Anything-Into-Oil1may03.htm I really would like to know what the current group thinks about the Thermal Conversion Process (TCP). I have read the company blurbs at Changing World Technologies site and a few other articles found on the Web. Have you all exhausted your talk on this already? In the meantime I will keep searching the archives. I realize that TDP is not a backyard project so if you want to leave it alone I will understand. Brian Rodgers It's a hardy perennial, always popping up in a new guise, whether oil from turkey parts or whatever. An archive search for Fischer-Tropsch will tell you much, including this fascinating snippet, from a list member: One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down into shorter chains for synthetic gasoline, jet fuel and diesel. He brought back some of the original German scientists who'd perfected this technology which utilized coarse, low-grade brown German coal as feedstock. Three times he tried to start-up an American version of synthetic hydrocarbon fuels in the GTL arena and was blocked. As the highest ranking American energy technologist post WWII, he couldn't figure this out. It was over 20 years later that he realized that the late John Rockefeller of Standard Oil [Exxon] had been the politic behind the scenes, making sure that his new, alternative fuel ideas did not materialize. This scientist then took his blueprints for the first major GTL project and gave them to Sasol who built his first coal gasification device back in 1953 and it is still operating today. Sasol from South Africa is the oldest synthetic fuels producer globally. Try these: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg46496.html Re: [Biofuel] Chrisgas http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg39855.html Re: [Biofuel] what are the on about? http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg39881.html Re: [Biofuel] what are the on about? http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg39888.html Re: [Biofuel] what are the on about? http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg32941.html Re: [biofuel] Sunoil better than biodiesel http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg24063.html Re: [biofuel] longdiscover article: anything to oil! Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Pagandai V Pannirselvam Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN Departamento de Engenharia Química - DEQ Centro de Tecnologia - CT Programa de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQ Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universitário CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil Residence : Av Odilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 Capim Macio EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil Telefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal210 32171557 Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557 Cellular 84 88145083 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and
[Biofuel] washing?
The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell book seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even detrimental. I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion. I'm sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel. Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel instead of just washing it away? I know this still leaves excess hydroxides that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the number of washes necessary and you might be able to save some of your methanol.Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima
*Part* of the Japanese government was trying to find a way to surrender, before the atom bombs. Part of the U.S. Navy command held the view that no further military operations were necessary and Japan would be compelled to surrender if the Allies just waited. Most of the U.S. Army and government felt that an invasion was necessary. It's not clear that the U.S. population would have accepted just hanging around fully mobilized at war waiting for six months or a year until the Japanese government nd army *as a whole* concluded that it had no alternative to unconditional surrender. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Sun, 7 Aug 2005, Chris wrote: Japan was trying to surrender. The bomb wasn't for Japan, it was to send a message to the other superpower, the Soviet Union. It also was used in part to justify the largest military expense in the history of the nation. Chris K Cayce, SC ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima
Sorry Tom. I don't deal in semantics. Glad to hear that you're confident in how you came into being. Couple that one incident with a few million other random happenings and you might be spot on. Then again, maybe lighting can strike twice in the same place. Environmental Scientist, eh? Wonder who's serial number is on the time clock you punch. As for biological weapons, superiority, slavery? You don't really think that the US or any of its citizenry has the right to point fingers at others, considering our illustrious history in the same realms, do you? I know. I'm taking things out of context. What's a little smallpox among friends? Or burning of crops and routing of villages in the fall to bring on starvation throughout a winter. As for leaflet dropping? I don't think anyone has to take anything into consideration other than what happened and when. It's not just the gentlemen who manned the planes that have it confused. The traditionalist American view has for decades. I guess it's one of those instances where if you tell a story long enough or tall enough, or both, everyone begins to believe it. As for tears for Oppenheimer? Nobody is getting syrupy over his sentiments, understandings and concerns. Just acknowledging them. It would be interesting to see the statements of those peers whom you've said forewarned him though. As for Churchill and Roosevelt having pre-knowledge of Pearl Harbor? A lot of people will be dead and buried before that one is ever discerned accurately, if ever. Todd Swearingen Tom Irwin wrote: Hi All, All right Todd, if you want to deal in semantics let me rephrase, It is my opinion that I would not be here today if the bombs had not been dropped. Now I am an environmental scientist but I´m also a closet historian. Before moving to Uruguay I had a considerable library on military history ( close to 400 volumes). I had read each of those at least once some many more times. No I have no idea of the true mindset of the Japanese military government because I´ve never spoke with any of them directly. But these were the same folks that used biological weapons in Manchuria, turned captured women into sex slaves, thought of themselves as being superior to most other asians, had an estimated (low) 100,000 asian civilians, British, Canadian and Australian POW´s die while under their management building the the railroad that the film Bridge Over the River Kwai made famous and whose forces had something called the banzai charge. Now their leaders MAY have beeen willing to surrender but not without terms like no warcrime trials and we get to stay in control. But they probably were not willing to accept unconditional surrender terms. As for those guys who dropped the bombs I can understand if their minds wish to alter the chronology of the leaflets. It must still weigh heavily on the minds that they individually were responsible for so much death and destruction. As to the leaflets I agree with what you have said. They were dropped after the bomds to convince the population and the government to surrender. It was a useful tactic considering we only had two bombs at the time and had just used them up. I would not shed too many tears for old Oppy. There were plenty of well respected scientists who told him what he was doing was wrong. He did it anyway. He was the one in charge. It was his ego that fueled its building. I too, would like to know what went on at the Potsdam conference. I believe it was mostly a British and Soviet agenda that was agreed too as Roosevelt was jsut abou dead. What I really would like to know for sure is if Roosevelt knew of the Pearl Harbor attack. I have a strong suspician he did. I´m fairly certain that Churchill did as they had broken the Japanese naval code. Did Churchill tell his biggest financer, weapons producer, and ally of the upcoming attack? Interesting stuff, no?! Tom Irwin *From:* Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:53:38 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima But the truth be told, I'm here today because they were used and we haven't had a world war since thier invention. Using the logic you initiated prior to that statement Tom, that we really have no idea of the mindset of Japan's WWII government it's a bit of a reach that you can declare your existance to be a pure product of the use of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs. If, as you say, we don't know their mindset, then you cannot say that they wouldn't have surrendered upon the very same day that they did. My tendency is to believe that more discovery should be conducted on the events at Potsdam, and the mindsets of those participants before, during and after, in order to come to
RE: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima
In 1920 both the U.S. and Japanese militaries considered that a war between the two countries was possible, and many thought it ultimately probable. For some time a major part of the Japanese government, establishment and armed forces had been dedicated to building an empire by force. A large part of the Japanese reaction to Commodore Perry, including the Meiji revolution, involved being the hammer instead of the anvil, and doing it to the other guys instead of being the victim. From the 16th century Japan (and long before) the Japanese establishment had looked on the world as a battleground of aggressive empires, with some justice. With the policy of isolation they tried to opt out, but in 1854 the world came after them, so they felt obliged to participate. The notion of a world of peaceful democracies as a desirable pattern of organization was one to which Japanese society was less receptive than some foreign countries. It was not universally popular elsewhere. In 1898 or thereabouts a U.S. writer commented: The taste of empire is in the mouths of the people, even as the taste of blood in the jungle. By 1920, Taiwan, Korea and the German Pacific possessions had been annexed. There is a book on U.S. war plans regarding Japan between the world wars, War Plan Orange which I have not yet read. Presumably plans included a final invasion of Japan if war came, and regardless of who started it. To the military mind it would have been the natural final step. One thing the U.S. wanted was that China should remain independent and open to American trade. See American Diplomacy 1900-1950 by George Kennan, for more on the U.S. China policy. The direction of Japanese policy was toward Japanese dominance over China, including its trade and other aspects of its wealth. If Japan had succeeded in incorporating China into its empire, ultimately Japan would have had the economic strength to support a navy competitive with and perhaps superior to that of the U.S. That prospect alarmed U.S. strategists. It would have alarmed me too, given the structure of Japanese society and its ambitions at the time and until 1945. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Sun, 7 Aug 2005, Chris Lloyd wrote: What puzzles me is that America had planned the invasion of the Japanese islands as far back as 1920. Why? What did they have that the US wanted? That?s probably the reason they did not want the Russians moving into that territory and moved quickly to end the war. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly
But is the jelly a typical sign of over dosing? I have a problem with disposing of the mess I have made if there is a way to salvage it. Take a small sample and see how much concentrated sulfuric or phosphoric acid it takes to crack the soap portion of the top jelly layer. This is the same thing that is done with the glyc cocktail to recover the free fatty acids. Todd Swearingen DERICK GIORCHINO wrote: Hi Keith More Thanks for you response. I tried the world famous chop stick titration technique. Wow what a difference in my titration #. I did a 1 ltr test in a soda bottle, with excellent result almost instantly. But here is where I got into trouble. The next batch was 20 liters I had some methoxide mixed from a prior batch that was also a failure and I couldn't figure what to do with the toxic mix so I tried to dilute it to 10 g.p. liter. I did my mixing of the 20 liters. As it cooled it turned into what looks like lard. I felt that I may have overdosed it. So I then took some test bottles and put 20% failure oil and 75% fresh wvo set it in the sun to melt/ liquefy. (105 deg F) shook it hard also a 50/50 mix in the hot state it seamed to separate better 25/75 than the 50/50 but as the sun went down and it cooled the 25/75 started to jell and the glycerol layer vanished but the 50/50 looked much better with a glycerol layer jelled at the bottom. I m not asking for a fix. But is the jelly a typical sign of over dosing? I have a problem with disposing of the mess I have made if there is a way to salvage it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:58 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution Hi Derick May be there is some help for me out there. I have made lots and lots of test batches. Most of them bad not good. One border line. And one 15 gal batch with fairly good results. I have used all the options given for titration in the J.T. Forever. Test strips work ... poorly, if at all, and are not recommended by JtF. but after introducing it to the mix I find if I need to add more solution the color will not change so I need to add strip after strip as I add the solution accuracy is probably off by the time I get done P.H. meter a good one I found to be about the same pH meters work well, especially if it's a good one, you shouldn't be having problems. and I have used phenolphthalein and get excellent response but im no chemist Very few of us are. can anyone tell me how much phenolphthalein to use on the test I have been using 2 drops @ 1% phenolphthalein. The instructions from J.T.F say use 1% phenolphthalein solution (1.0w/v%). If you can please help. Thanks Derick You say: The instructions from J.T.F say use 1% phenolphthalein solution (1.0w/v%). The instructions at JtF say: Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution. Dissolve 1 gm of lye in 1 litre of distilled water (0.1% w/v lye solution). In a smaller beaker, dissolve 1 ml of the cooled oil in 10 ml of pure isopropyl alcohol. Warm the beaker gently by standing it in some hot water, stir until all the oil dissolves in the alcohol and turns clear. Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution. Using a graduated syringe, add 0.1% lye solution drop by drop to the oil-alcohol-phenolphthalein solution, stirring all the time, until the solution starts to turn pink and stays that way for 10 seconds. -- From: Biodiesel from waste oil http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodwvo See also: More about lye How much lye to use? Basic titration Better titration Accurate measurements pH meters Phenolphthalein pH meters vs phenolphthalein http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye Are your scales, measuring equipment and measuring techniques up to scratch? Best wishes Keith -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Probst, Peter Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:44 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution Thanks to all who provided sources and altarnatives for the phenolphthalein! Now I can start using the 75+ gallons of WVO that's been sitting around my garage. Pete ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined
RE: [Biofuel] RE: jelly
Thanks for the response. I feel that I may not have explained that there isn't a layer it's almost a solid mass. It is about 95 deg f outside and if I turn the soda bottle on its side it slides inside the bottle as one lump retaining the shape of the bottom of the bottle. If I shake it hard it does brake up somewhat. Kind of like when the old super ball was broken. I feel that I now have super glop. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Appal Energy Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2005 5:51 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] RE: jelly But is the jelly a typical sign of over dosing? I have a problem with disposing of the mess I have made if there is a way to salvage it. Take a small sample and see how much concentrated sulfuric or phosphoric acid it takes to crack the soap portion of the top jelly layer. This is the same thing that is done with the glyc cocktail to recover the free fatty acids. Todd Swearingen DERICK GIORCHINO wrote: Hi Keith More Thanks for you response. I tried the world famous chop stick titration technique. Wow what a difference in my titration #. I did a 1 ltr test in a soda bottle, with excellent result almost instantly. But here is where I got into trouble. The next batch was 20 liters I had some methoxide mixed from a prior batch that was also a failure and I couldn't figure what to do with the toxic mix so I tried to dilute it to 10 g.p. liter. I did my mixing of the 20 liters. As it cooled it turned into what looks like lard. I felt that I may have overdosed it. So I then took some test bottles and put 20% failure oil and 75% fresh wvo set it in the sun to melt/ liquefy. (105 deg F) shook it hard also a 50/50 mix in the hot state it seamed to separate better 25/75 than the 50/50 but as the sun went down and it cooled the 25/75 started to jell and the glycerol layer vanished but the 50/50 looked much better with a glycerol layer jelled at the bottom. I m not asking for a fix. But is the jelly a typical sign of over dosing? I have a problem with disposing of the mess I have made if there is a way to salvage it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 8:58 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution Hi Derick May be there is some help for me out there. I have made lots and lots of test batches. Most of them bad not good. One border line. And one 15 gal batch with fairly good results. I have used all the options given for titration in the J.T. Forever. Test strips work ... poorly, if at all, and are not recommended by JtF. but after introducing it to the mix I find if I need to add more solution the color will not change so I need to add strip after strip as I add the solution accuracy is probably off by the time I get done P.H. meter a good one I found to be about the same pH meters work well, especially if it's a good one, you shouldn't be having problems. and I have used phenolphthalein and get excellent response but im no chemist Very few of us are. can anyone tell me how much phenolphthalein to use on the test I have been using 2 drops @ 1% phenolphthalein. The instructions from J.T.F say use 1% phenolphthalein solution (1.0w/v%). If you can please help. Thanks Derick You say: The instructions from J.T.F say use 1% phenolphthalein solution (1.0w/v%). The instructions at JtF say: Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution. Dissolve 1 gm of lye in 1 litre of distilled water (0.1% w/v lye solution). In a smaller beaker, dissolve 1 ml of the cooled oil in 10 ml of pure isopropyl alcohol. Warm the beaker gently by standing it in some hot water, stir until all the oil dissolves in the alcohol and turns clear. Add 2 drops of phenolphthalein solution. Using a graduated syringe, add 0.1% lye solution drop by drop to the oil-alcohol-phenolphthalein solution, stirring all the time, until the solution starts to turn pink and stays that way for 10 seconds. -- From: Biodiesel from waste oil http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodwvo See also: More about lye How much lye to use? Basic titration Better titration Accurate measurements pH meters Phenolphthalein pH meters vs phenolphthalein http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye Are your scales, measuring equipment and measuring techniques up to scratch? Best wishes Keith -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Probst, Peter Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 9:44 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] RE: Phenolphthalein solution Thanks to all who provided sources and altarnatives for the phenolphthalein! Now I can start using the 75+ gallons of WVO that's been sitting around my garage. Pete
Re: [Biofuel] New question was The myths of Hiroshima
First post If you're talking WWII style or Vietnam style flamethrower then you're talking Napalm...heh. ~Clark On 8/7/05, Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I passed by the local used everything store and saw an old style blowtorch. It looked like it was in working order and cost next to nothing. I immediately though now that would make a nice preheater to boil off any excess water in my waste vegetable oil. If this is in the archives I´m sorry but it´s early and I haven´t had my morning cup yet. What the heck did they use to fuel these suckers? Do you think it can run on BioD or glycerine byproduct? Thanks, Tom From: Garth Kim Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:40:16 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima Greetings Tom, Yes, many of us would not be here. Canadian forces were also training for that invasion. I was always taught that it was the code of death before dishonor that made the bombing necessary. I am not saying that is correct, but I wonder how scared of Russia anyone would have been by that time in the war. As I understand it, one of the things the Russian people hated America for was the long wait before they joined, which allowed Russia to be seriously depleted. I do understand that the Japanese were already commandeering cooking pots etc. for metal to make weapons, so they must have known the end was in sight, but that had been going on for long enough to scare many people into believing they would not surrender, period. It is easy to start myths during war time, people are so scared and the average person is not told much of the truth for good reasons, many times. I see it today, so many people are so scared of terrorism and have no idea of how it started. How does one educate a population that is now in it's second or third generation of ignorance of history, science, math, philosophy and common sense? Bright Blessings, Kim At 01:23 PM 8/5/2005, you wrote: Hi All, Although I'm in agreement about the Enola Gay exhibit, I will have to disagree about the use of the bombs. As slightly more modern barbarians we really have no idea of the mindset of Japan's WWII government. Perhaps Keith can give his insights since he lives close by. My reading of that history is that Japan's military had a stranglehold on the government. That their way was the Bushido way. There's a lot of death before dishonor in that line of thinking. My father related many stories to me of the kamakazi attacks during the invasion of Okinawa. That they were ineffective does not discount their willingness to die. There were a lot fewer prisoners taken in the Pacific war. Some of that was certainly racism on our side but a fairly good piece of it wasn't. I've spoken with many veterans from that campaign. Many reasonable men told me quite frankly that the Japanese would rather die than surrender. If they could die taking a few of their enemy with them all the better. If this willingness to die was prevelent in their armed forces I think one can make the jump that if the home islands were attacked that our casualties would be very high. Perhaps not the million so often quoted but if it was only a quarter of that, many of us who are currently alive would never have been born. My father was in training for the invasion when the bombs were dropped. He told me everyone on board his troop transport breathed a sigh of relief when they realized they would not have to invade. I personally have no use for nuclear technology or nuclear weapons and am fully against them. But the truth be told, I'm here today because they were used and we haven't had a world war since thier invention. my two cents for the day, Tom Irwin From: Appal Energy [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:21:01 -0300 Subject: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-bird5aug05,0,760322.story The myths of Hiroshima By Kai Bird and Martin J. Sherwin, KAI BIRD and MARTIN J. SHERWIN are coauthors of American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer, published earlier this year by Knopf. SIXTY YEARS ago tomorrow, an atomic bomb was dropped without warning on the center of the Japanese city of Hiroshima. One hundred and forty thousand people were killed, more than 95% of them women and children and other noncombatants. At least half of the victims died of radiation poisoning over the next few months. Three days after Hiroshima was obliterated, the city of Nagasaki suffered a similar fate. The magnitude of death was enormous, but on Aug. 14, 1945 — just five days after the Nagasaki bombing — Radiadio Tokyo announced that the Japanese
Re: [Biofuel] New question was The myths of Hiroshima
If its one of those old brass hand-held blow torches it uses kerosene. - Original Message - From: clark creamer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:17 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question was The myths of Hiroshima First post If you're talking WWII style or Vietnam style flamethrower then you're talking Napalm...heh. ~Clark On 8/7/05, Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I passed by the local used everything store and saw an old style blowtorch. It looked like it was in working order and cost next to nothing. I immediately though now that would make a nice preheater to boil off any excess water in my waste vegetable oil. If this is in the archives I´m sorry but it´s early and I haven´t had my morning cup yet. What the heck did they use to fuel these suckers? Do you think it can run on BioD or glycerine byproduct? Thanks, Tom From: Garth Kim Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:40:16 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima Greetings Tom, Yes, many of us would not be here. Canadian forces were also training for that invasion. I was always taught that it was the code of death before dishonor that made the bombing necessary. I am not saying that is correct, but I wonder how scared of Russia anyone would have been by that time in the war. As I understand it, one of the things the Russian people hated America for was the long wait before they joined, which allowed Russia to be seriously depleted. I do understand that the Japanese were already commandeering cooking pots etc. for metal to make weapons, so they must have known the end was in sight, but that had been going on for long enough to scare many people into believing they would not surrender, period. It is easy to start myths during war time, people are so scared and the average person is not told much of the truth for good reasons, many times. I see it today, so many people are so scared of terrorism and have no idea of how it started. How does one educate a population that is now in it's second or third generation of ignorance of history, science, math, philosophy and common sense? Bright Blessings, Kim At 01:23 PM 8/5/2005, you wrote: Hi All, Although I'm in agreement about the Enola Gay exhibit, I will have to disagree about the use of the bombs. As slightly more modern barbarians we really have no idea of the mindset of Japan's WWII government. Perhaps Keith can give his insights since he lives close by. My reading of that history is that Japan's military had a stranglehold on the government. That their way was the Bushido way. There's a lot of death before dishonor in that line of thinking. My father related many stories to me of the kamakazi attacks during the invasion of Okinawa. That they were ineffective does not discount their willingness to die. There were a lot fewer prisoners taken in the Pacific war. Some of that was certainly racism on our side but a fairly good piece of it wasn't. I've spoken with many veterans from that campaign. Many reasonable men told me quite frankly that the Japanese would rather die than surrender. If they could die taking a few of their enemy with them all the better. If this willingness to die was prevelent in their armed forces I think one can make the jump that if the home islands were attacked that our casualties would be very high. Perhaps not the million so often quoted but if it was only a quarter of that, many of us who are currently alive would never have been born. My father was in training for the invasion when the bombs were dropped. He told me everyone on board his troop transport breathed a sigh of relief when they realized they would not have to invade. I personally have no use for nuclear technology or nuclear weapons and am fully against them. But the truth be told, I'm here today because they were used and we haven't had a world war since thier invention. my two cents for the day, Tom Irwin From: Appal Energy [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:21:01 -0300 Subject: [Biofuel] The myths of Hiroshima http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-bird5aug05,0,760322.story The myths of Hiroshima By Kai Bird and Martin J. Sherwin, KAI BIRD and MARTIN J. SHERWIN are coauthors of American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer, published earlier this year by Knopf. SIXTY YEARS ago tomorrow, an atomic bomb was dropped without warning on the center of the Japanese city of Hiroshima. One hundred and forty thousand people were killed, more than 95% of them women and children and other noncombatants. At least
