Re: [Biofuel] Governments role in society.

[Doug Younker]

Hi,

I'm not so sure if the following would even be possible;

6) No private land ownership, however a system that puts people on the
  land for prosperity in agriculture through ley and organic means.

In the county in which I live there would be enough decent property to 
allow every now existing households to prosper engaging in agricultural 
means.  I suppose it depends on how you define prosper, but I'm certain 
we wouldn't having this exchange in the manner we are.  Owning a 
computer and purchasing Internet service would be luxuries.

Doug, N0LKK
Kansas USA

JJJN wrote:
 Since I am USA born and raised, I've only been to Canada 5 times I have 
 a limited experience in life with what others experience concerning 
 Government and its role in ones daily life.  One of the things I like 
 about this list is the variety of international differences shared every 
 so often.  A question has come to mind pondering what is the role a 
 government should play in life and in what ways should not interfere.  
 If I was going to start a new Country I came up with a list of things 
 that I would want it to do.  Since this list is mine, it is narrow and 
 one sided, but I would love to hear what others think so I may expand my 
 thinking on these things.
 
 My List:
 1) Freedom of speech.
 2)  Separation  of Church and State combined with Freedom of Religion (I 
 think this is in name only in the USA currently but at least we have a 
 choice still).
 3) The right to keep and bare arms.  ( I eat what I kill and I kill my 
 meat with a gun or bow this may offend but I live by ways as old as dirt 
 - may they be legal).
 4) All Funding for the expenses of government to come from Business and 
 Corporation only. (this means it would be unlawfully to tax the populace)
 5) Government through representation of the people by the people.
 6) No private land ownership, however a system that puts people on the 
 land for prosperity in agriculture through ley and organic means.
 7) No private ownership of wildlife. Subsistence hunting allowed when 
 needed.
 8)
 
 ?
 
 Help!
 Jim
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio

[D. Mindock]

1. Emotions are part of being human. Life without them would be boring.
2. The only, the only source that reported the story originally was the 
emotional
one. The facts about what happened are embedded in it.
3. The difference between the two stories, as I recall, is that time had 
passed
and emotions had cooled. But that doesn't mean that the original rendition's
bits about the actions of the police were any less reprehensible.
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio


 Not shooting a messenger and it doesn't really matter if the both
 articles were from the same source or one was from Pluto and the other
 from Venus.

 One was poorly written, with no facts, only telling a reader what they
 should think or feel. It wasn't an article, it was an incitement.

 The other was only half as bad, although still poorly written.

 Personally? I'd like the facts first and I'd prefer to formulate my own
 judgements and orchestrate my own emotions, not have them played like a
 harp by anyone with a purpose.

 There's an enormous difference in purpose between the two pieces. That
 was what was pointed out and what you don't seem to want to address.

 Todd Swearingen



 D. Mindock wrote:

Todd,
   The link I provided was the original and only link that covered the
story. The additional link was to the same site and probably written
by the same person. If the original link was too
emotional then you should write the author of the article. Don't shoot
the messenger.
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio




Your link, to the same site, is not in disagreement with
the link I gave.
It's just an update. Same story, same site. I don't know
how you can say my link was lopsided.


The link you provided was all emotion and no detail. The one offered in
response included a bit more meat and considerably less emotion.

The point is to let the facts speak for themselves. They don't lie or
mislead. Emotions often lead readers astray, which is precisely what is
intended far too much of the time.

Todd Swearingen




D. Mindock wrote:



Todd,

  The conversion of our country into a police state is not
something I can take lightly. I am POed at what's
happening. I hate seeing the promise of America being trashed by
a couple of oil barons and their henchmen, oh, and Ms. Rice.
   The facts were there in the link I gave. If you wish to dig deeper, 
 be
my
guest. In this day and age of disinformation originating from
propaganda disseminated by the US gov, paid for by our tax dollars, who
are you going to trust?
  Have you seen the reportage from the Miami FTAA convention
where people, some elderly, who were peacefully protesting were brutally
assaulted?
The USA is becoming a huge gulag, one day at a time, imo. The incident
in Ohio with Carol Fisher was not an isolated incident.
   Your link, to the same site, is not in disagreement with the link I
gave.
It's just an update. Same story, same site. I don't know how you can say
my link was lopsided.

   Peace, D. Mindock  PS Another update below:

May 11, 10pm: Carol Fisher has been released!  We'll send out more info
when
we have it.  In the meantime, this is an excellent development. But it's
also NOT over.

We don't know what the judge and other authorities will do next. 
Carol's
sentencing date is June 2. She still faces 3 years in jail and thousands
of
dollars in fines.  We plan to appeal the verdict and challenge all the
gross
violations of her rights.


Click here to find out what you can do to help.

==
- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 6:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio






How about a little less emotionally charged, speech and a little more 
of
the facts? Nothing personal. Just that the link you offered was 1,000%
lopsided.

Here's a slightly more factual bit, almost devoid of facts in 
comparison.

http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=1482Itemid=184

I'm sure that if one were to dig a little deeper there could be found a
more thorough description of the events.

While it sounds like a legit beef, it would be great to be afforded
details, not whitewash on one side or hype on the other.

If you do this stuff long enough, you soon realize that facts are your
best friend and uber emotions all too frequently alienate potential
advocates.

Todd Swearingen



D. Mindock wrote:





This is happening in America, land of the free  home of the brave.
America
is becoming a land of no compassion for
common folk who protest against the crimes of BushCo. Even peace 
loving

[Biofuel] What Would Crazy Horse Do?

[D. Mindock]

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/May06/Random19.htmMisconceptions in the Immigration 
DebateWhat Would Crazy Horse Do?by Jack RandomWe are not a 
nation of immigrants. We might have been. We nearlyexterminated the entire 
population of indigenous peoples but in the endwe failed. The natives are 
still here despite our determined drive togenocide. The tribes are still 
identifiable despite our determinedcampaign to scatter and destroy their 
languages, cultures and religiousbeliefs.We are not a nation of 
immigrants; we are a nation of conquerors. We area nation that seizes by 
force what we desire. We are a nation that hasnever been content to share 
our discovered treasures. We did not stealthe land from Mexico; we stole the 
land from the Apache, Lakota,Iroquois, Cherokee, Nez Perce, Cheyenne, 
Arapaho, Seminole, Blackfoot,Ute, Paiute and countless other tribes that 
still exist. We joinedMexico is stealing the land from those who did not 
wish to possess itbut merely to live on it in harmony.We are not a 
nation of immigrants. We are a nation of natives andungrateful 
visitors.We are not a nation of laws. We are a nation that bends laws to 
power.We are a nation that chooses not to enforce laws when they conflict 
withour designs or the all-powerful will of the international 
corporationsthat control our government. We are a nation that breaks laws at 
willand violates treaties and international agreements with willful 
abandon.We are not a nation of laws. We are a nation of lawyers, 
accountants andcorporate boards of directors.When the president 
explains that employers have not been prosecuted forhiring illegal 
immigrants because the immigrants have mastered the artof document fraud, he 
is putting forth another myth. Employers have notbeen prosecuted because 
they are the president's constituents. They arein fact sponsors of 
politicians in all border states. Anyone whoactually believes that the 
authorities will begin prosecuting employersbecause legal immigrants have 
better identification cards has drunk fromthe well of magical wonders. There 
may be selective prosecutions forshow and political retribution but that is 
all. Anyone who believes thatemployers will stop hiring low-cost 
undocumented workers should let hispsychotropic prescription 
lapse.We are not a nation of justice -- justice least of all. If we were 
anation of justice, we would honor our debts. We would make 
justreparations to natives and African Americans who were compelled 
tomigrate as slaves. What the nation owes to the Lakota (1) and 
Cherokee(2) alone amounts to more than what we will ultimately spend to 
destroythe nations of Afghanistan and Iraq -- more even than our national 
debt,a debt that is deeper than the skies over Bear Butte are 
wide.We are not a nation of justice. We are a nation of exploitation. We 
haveconspired with corporate governments throughout the hemisphere 
toexploit labor and extract resources. We have created a free trade 
zonewithout factoring wages into the equation. Though it seems complex, 
itis not that difficult to understand. It follows the fundamental laws 
ofsupply, demand and profit taking. Corporations will seek all means 
ofmaximizing profits, including cutting the cost of production. Jobs 
willmove to where the costs are least. Labor will move to where jobs 
payliving wages. Wherever possible, good paying jobs will be replaced 
bylow paying jobs and no wall or barrier will prevent these laws 
frombeing carried out. In the corporate mind, it is a cold calculation: 
costversus benefit.It is easy to see why our politicians ignore the 
root cause of theimmigration problem: global trade policy. Republicans need 
a newscapegoat to replace the gays and abortion activists that have 
servedthem so well. Democrats cannot afford to alienate their 
corporatesponsors.What has happened to Mexico (a momentary 
beneficiary of job migration)is happening now in America. Regardless of 
immigration reform inwhatever form it takes, we will continue to lose 
well-paid jobs and realwages will continue to decline until we understand 
that the cause of ourmisfortune resides with the corporate masters of a 
global economy andtheir proxies in government. It will continue until 
we embrace ourfellow workers in all nations in unity and strength.If 
we fail to revive organized labor on an international scale, thebleeding 
will render us powerless. There are no walls that can preventour demise. We 
have allowed international corporate conglomerates todivide and exploit us 
nation by nation because we are too proud, toonaïve, and too nationalistic 
to value unity with individuals outside ourborders.If we do not 
stand together to lift up the whole (wages and workingconditions in every 
corner of the globe), then like the children'snursery rhyme in the time of 
the great plague, we will all fall down.In the long term, we must make 
sure that the costs of exploiting laborare greater than the benefits. Hugo 
Chavez 

[Biofuel] Fwd: Anti-Empire Report, May 21, 2006

[Keith Addison]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 17:41:28 EDT
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Anti-Empire Report, May 21, 2006

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/aer33.htm

 


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Re: [Biofuel] Governments role in society.

[Keith Addison]

Hi,

   I'm not so sure if the following would even be possible;

6) No private land ownership, however a system that puts people on the
  land for prosperity in agriculture through ley and organic means.

In the county in which I live there would be enough decent property to
allow every now existing households to prosper engaging in agricultural
means.  I suppose it depends on how you define prosper, but I'm certain
we wouldn't having this exchange in the manner we are.  Owning a
computer and purchasing Internet service would be luxuries.

Why?

Doug, N0LKK
Kansas USA

JJJN wrote:
  Since I am USA born and raised, I've only been to Canada 5 times I have
  a limited experience in life with what others experience concerning
  Government and its role in ones daily life.  One of the things I like
  about this list is the variety of international differences shared every
  so often.  A question has come to mind pondering what is the role a
  government should play in life and in what ways should not interfere.
  If I was going to start a new Country I came up with a list of things
  that I would want it to do.  Since this list is mine, it is narrow and
  one sided, but I would love to hear what others think so I may expand my
  thinking on these things.
 
  My List:
  1) Freedom of speech.
  2)  Separation  of Church and State combined with Freedom of Religion (I
  think this is in name only in the USA currently but at least we have a
  choice still).
  3) The right to keep and bare arms.  ( I eat what I kill and I kill my
  meat with a gun or bow this may offend but I live by ways as old as dirt
  - may they be legal).
  4) All Funding for the expenses of government to come from Business and
  Corporation only. (this means it would be unlawfully to tax the populace)
  5) Government through representation of the people by the people.
  6) No private land ownership, however a system that puts people on the
  land for prosperity in agriculture through ley and organic means.
  7) No private ownership of wildlife. Subsistence hunting allowed when
  needed.
  8)
 
  ?
 
  Help!
  Jim


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[Biofuel] Dynoil announces it will build a 100, 000 barrel per day Bio-Diesel Refinery in the Houston, Texas

[Frank Bergmans]

Dynoil announces it will build a 100,000 barrel per day Bio-Diesel Refinery in 
the Houston, Texas
 
This is really big. Can anyone tell me how serious this announcement is? Is 
this a well known company? I cannot find any company website. Maybe it's 
related to Dynoil Energy (http://dynoilenergy.com/ http://dynoilenergy.com/ ) 
which hardly provides much more information.
 
For the press release follow this link: 
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/4/prweb376066.htm 
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/4/prweb376066.htm  
 
Frank Bergmans
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Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio

[Keith Addison]

I wonder what this is all about. I don't see any crop circles or 
UFOs, no Round Tables, Bilderbergers or Freemasons, no New World 
Government, I didn't even see the S-word. It would be kind of strange 
to protest that this isn't happening in the US now and just write it 
off to hysterical over-emotionalism.

This isn't right:

  One was poorly written, with no facts, only telling a reader what they
  should think or feel. It wasn't an article, it was an incitement.

That's this one, that D. posted first:

http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=1029Itemi
Activist Brutalized and Arrested by Police for Postering

If you read down a bit there's a lot of detail, a lot of reporting, 
and it's not particularly unusual stuff that's being reported. 
There's about 30kb of copy there. Not a bad job, some of it. You can 
read poorer stuff in the NYT. There's a lot of reportage in any news 
archives about similar events elsewhere, and that it's been spreading 
ever wider.

Sure, check it out, check out the NYT too, check everything out. If 
you want facts then you'll have to go and wear out some shoe 
leather. Otherwise you can be satisfied with other things, like 
widespread corraboration, other kinds of spot checks you can make and 
so on, it's not impossible.

That's not what's happening here though, this is a deadlock.

Todd, you live in Ohio. Didn't this make any local waves at the time, 
or during the subsequent court proceedings? If not, wouldn't you say 
that there's enough in the worldcantwait coverage, and that it gels 
quite adequately with many other such events in the US, to inquire 
why the loud silence?

Best

Keith


1. Emotions are part of being human. Life without them would be boring.
2. The only, the only source that reported the story originally was the
emotional
one. The facts about what happened are embedded in it.
3. The difference between the two stories, as I recall, is that time had
passed
and emotions had cooled. But that doesn't mean that the original rendition's
bits about the actions of the police were any less reprehensible.
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message -
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio


  Not shooting a messenger and it doesn't really matter if the both
  articles were from the same source or one was from Pluto and the other
  from Venus.
 
  One was poorly written, with no facts, only telling a reader what they
  should think or feel. It wasn't an article, it was an incitement.
 
  The other was only half as bad, although still poorly written.
 
  Personally? I'd like the facts first and I'd prefer to formulate my own
  judgements and orchestrate my own emotions, not have them played like a
  harp by anyone with a purpose.
 
  There's an enormous difference in purpose between the two pieces. That
  was what was pointed out and what you don't seem to want to address.
 
  Todd Swearingen
 
 
 
  D. Mindock wrote:
 
 Todd,
The link I provided was the original and only link that covered the
 story. The additional link was to the same site and probably written
 by the same person. If the original link was too
 emotional then you should write the author of the article. Don't shoot
 the messenger.
 Peace, D. Mindock
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 7:38 PM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio
 
 
 
 
 Your link, to the same site, is not in disagreement with
 the link I gave.
 It's just an update. Same story, same site. I don't know
 how you can say my link was lopsided.
 
 
 The link you provided was all emotion and no detail. The one offered in
 response included a bit more meat and considerably less emotion.
 
 The point is to let the facts speak for themselves. They don't lie or
 mislead. Emotions often lead readers astray, which is precisely what is
 intended far too much of the time.
 
 Todd Swearingen
 
 
 
 
 D. Mindock wrote:
 
 
 
 Todd,
 
   The conversion of our country into a police state is not
 something I can take lightly. I am POed at what's
 happening. I hate seeing the promise of America being trashed by
 a couple of oil barons and their henchmen, oh, and Ms. Rice.
The facts were there in the link I gave. If you wish to dig deeper,
  be
 my
 guest. In this day and age of disinformation originating from
 propaganda disseminated by the US gov, paid for by our tax dollars, who
 are you going to trust?
   Have you seen the reportage from the Miami FTAA convention
 where people, some elderly, who were peacefully protesting were brutally
 assaulted?
 The USA is becoming a huge gulag, one day at a time, imo. The incident
 in Ohio with Carol Fisher was not an isolated incident.
Your link, to the same site, is not in disagreement with the link I
 gave.
 It's just an update. Same story, same site. 

Re: [Biofuel] CEI runs PRO CARBON DIOXIDE ADS

[Keith Addison]

good gods! these people are demented to say the least. theres spin, and then
theres the tilt-a-whirl...and i gotta say this no longer qualifies as simple
spin.

There is no such thing as simple spin.

What CEI does should come as no surprise.

There are 30 previous emails in the list archives about the 
Competitive Enterprise Institute, going back five years. It leads you 
to a cornucopia of stuff about all the other suspects, and it all 
leads you to lots of good stuff about why it matters and what you can 
do about it.

It's all there if you look.

Best

Keith



- Original Message -
From: Paul S Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 10:46 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] CEI runs PRO CARBON DIOXIDE ADS


  This is a joke...Right?  I mean, surely ExxonMobil doesn't think that
  we are ALL THIS DUMB, RIGHT?
 
  The (surreal) videos of the 2 commercials:  http://streams.cei.org/
 
  Backed by ExxonMobil.  Denialists with a vested interest.
 
  Resources:
  About CEI:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute
  http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Competitive_Enterprise_Institute
 
  Reuters: http://tinyurl.com/jfdcb
 
  --
  Thanks,
  PC
 
  He's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch
 
  We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything. - Thomas A Edison


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Re: [Biofuel] What Would Crazy Horse Do?

[Hakan Falk]

Well, US have their own Holocaust history, as ugly, racial
and unfair, as the German one. Almost all countries has such histories,
that often are suppressed and the current winners banalize
it. Even Sweden, Norway and Finland, have a very ugly past in their
treatment and stealing from the indigenous
population in the north. 
We are however here and now, the only thing we can do is to try to be
honest and realize the true history of the rightness of our forefathers,
it is often an ugly and criminal one. It is also important that the
agreements that was done in the spirit of making things right
are kept. That it is, with time and negligence, a costly proposition,
cannot be an excuse. 
Hakan 
At 10:53 22/05/2006, you wrote:



http://www.dissidentvoice.org/May06/Random19.htm

Misconceptions
in the Immigration Debate
What Would Crazy Horse Do?
by Jack Random
We are not a nation of immigrants. We might have been. We nearly
exterminated the entire population of indigenous peoples but in the
end
we failed. The natives are still here despite our determined drive
to
genocide. The tribes are still identifiable despite our determined
campaign to scatter and destroy their languages, cultures and
religious
beliefs.
We are not a nation of immigrants; we are a nation of conquerors. We
are
a nation that seizes by force what we desire. We are a nation that
has
never been content to share our discovered treasures. We did not
steal
the land from Mexico; we stole the land from the Apache, Lakota,
Iroquois, Cherokee, Nez Perce, Cheyenne, Arapaho, Seminole,
Blackfoot,
Ute, Paiute and countless other tribes that still exist. We joined
Mexico is stealing the land from those who did not wish to possess
it
but merely to live on it in harmony.
We are not a nation of immigrants. We are a nation of natives and
ungrateful visitors.
We are not a nation of laws. We are a nation that bends laws to
power.
We are a nation that chooses not to enforce laws when they conflict
with
our designs or the all-powerful will of the international
corporations
that control our government. We are a nation that breaks laws at
will
and violates treaties and international agreements with willful
abandon.
We are not a nation of laws. We are a nation of lawyers, accountants
and
corporate boards of directors.
When the president explains that employers have not been prosecuted
for
hiring illegal immigrants because the immigrants have mastered the
art
of document fraud, he is putting forth another myth. Employers have
not
been prosecuted because they are the president's constituents. They
are
in fact sponsors of politicians in all border states. Anyone who
actually believes that the authorities will begin prosecuting
employers
because legal immigrants have better identification cards has drunk
from
the well of magical wonders. There may be selective prosecutions for
show and political retribution but that is all. Anyone who believes
that
employers will stop hiring low-cost undocumented workers should let
his
psychotropic prescription lapse.
We are not a nation of justice -- justice least of all. If we were a
nation of justice, we would honor our debts. We would make just
reparations to natives and African Americans who were compelled to
migrate as slaves. What the nation owes to the Lakota (1) and
Cherokee
(2) alone amounts to more than what we will ultimately spend to
destroy
the nations of Afghanistan and Iraq -- more even than our national
debt,
a debt that is deeper than the skies over Bear Butte are wide.
We are not a nation of justice. We are a nation of exploitation. We
have
conspired with corporate governments throughout the hemisphere to
exploit labor and extract resources. We have created a free trade
zone
without factoring wages into the equation. Though it seems complex,
it
is not that difficult to understand. It follows the fundamental laws
of
supply, demand and profit taking. Corporations will seek all means
of
maximizing profits, including cutting the cost of production. Jobs
will
move to where the costs are least. Labor will move to where jobs
pay
living wages. Wherever possible, good paying jobs will be replaced
by
low paying jobs and no wall or barrier will prevent these laws from
being carried out. In the corporate mind, it is a cold calculation:
cost
versus benefit.
It is easy to see why our politicians ignore the root cause of the
immigration problem: global trade policy. Republicans need a new
scapegoat to replace the gays and abortion activists that have
served
them so well. Democrats cannot afford to alienate their corporate
sponsors.
What has happened to Mexico (a momentary beneficiary of job
migration)
is happening now in America. Regardless of immigration reform in
whatever form it takes, we will continue to lose well-paid jobs and
real
wages will continue to decline until we understand that the cause of
our
misfortune resides with the corporate masters of a global economy
and
their proxies in government. It will continue until we 

Re: [Biofuel] CEI runs PRO CARBON DIOXIDE ADS

[Chip Mefford]

Paul S Cantrell wrote:
 This is a joke...Right?  I mean, surely ExxonMobil doesn't think that
 we are ALL THIS DUMB, RIGHT?

No,

ExxonMobil *KNOWS* 'we' are all that dumb.

 The (surreal) videos of the 2 commercials:  http://streams.cei.org/
 
 Backed by ExxonMobil.  Denialists with a vested interest.

Not denialists,
Contrarians.

 
 Resources:
 About CEI:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute
  http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Competitive_Enterprise_Institute
 
 Reuters: http://tinyurl.com/jfdcb
 


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Re: [Biofuel] CEI runs PRO CARBON DIOXIDE ADS

[Hakan Falk]

Finally I looked at the videos and got surprised. How could any
sane person participate in such an attempt. It would be a big joke,
if it was not serious and part of a comic show. It is so amazing,
stupid and in fact a criminal fraud.

Hakan

At 13:16 22/05/2006, you wrote:
Paul S Cantrell wrote:
  This is a joke...Right?  I mean, surely ExxonMobil doesn't think that
  we are ALL THIS DUMB, RIGHT?

No,

ExxonMobil *KNOWS* 'we' are all that dumb.

  The (surreal) videos of the 2 commercials:  http://streams.cei.org/
 
  Backed by ExxonMobil.  Denialists with a vested interest.

Not denialists,
Contrarians.

 
  Resources:
  About CEI:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute
  
 http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Competitive_Enterprise_Institute
 
  Reuters: http://tinyurl.com/jfdcb
 


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Re: [Biofuel] CEI runs PRO CARBON DIOXIDE ADS

[Mike Weaver]

Ever read the book Toxic Sludge is GOOD for You?

Hakan Falk wrote:

Finally I looked at the videos and got surprised. How could any
sane person participate in such an attempt. It would be a big joke,
if it was not serious and part of a comic show. It is so amazing,
stupid and in fact a criminal fraud.

Hakan

At 13:16 22/05/2006, you wrote:
  

Paul S Cantrell wrote:


This is a joke...Right?  I mean, surely ExxonMobil doesn't think that
we are ALL THIS DUMB, RIGHT?
  

No,

ExxonMobil *KNOWS* 'we' are all that dumb.



The (surreal) videos of the 2 commercials:  http://streams.cei.org/

Backed by ExxonMobil.  Denialists with a vested interest.
  

Not denialists,
Contrarians.



Resources:
About CEI:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute

  

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Competitive_Enterprise_Institute


Reuters: http://tinyurl.com/jfdcb

  

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Re: [Biofuel] CEI runs PRO CARBON DIOXIDE ADS

[Mike Weaver]

Ww ARE that dumb.
Gotta go watch TV in my SUV

Chip Mefford wrote:

Paul S Cantrell wrote:
  

This is a joke...Right?  I mean, surely ExxonMobil doesn't think that
we are ALL THIS DUMB, RIGHT?



No,

ExxonMobil *KNOWS* 'we' are all that dumb.

  

The (surreal) videos of the 2 commercials:  http://streams.cei.org/

Backed by ExxonMobil.  Denialists with a vested interest.



Not denialists,
Contrarians.

  

Resources:
About CEI:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute
 http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Competitive_Enterprise_Institute

Reuters: http://tinyurl.com/jfdcb





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Re: [Biofuel] Government's role in society.

[D. Mindock]

Hi Jim,
   I think number 4 could be dangerous. What if a corporation wanted to 
withhold their taxes for some
reason?
  I'd modify number 5:
5) Government through representation of the people by the people.
to this:
5) Government through representation of only the people, by only the people, 
for only the
people. (No wiggle room on this one)
And I'd add another article that strongly limits what is really the root of 
all our problems, the
immoral/unethical, inhumane influence of multinational corporations which 
now control most of the world's
governments and indirectly, their people. This is the elephant in the room, 
imo. Corporations are
not people or a person and deserve no special treatment. The welfare of the 
people should be paramount to all considerations.
In this vein, the environment is part and parcel of the welfare of the 
people. You can't ignore it or trash it without it coming
back to ruin your day, and your life. Corporations, as a rule, don't give a 
hoot about the environment. We are all stuck on a small planet that is 
getter more polluted every day. The oceans are loaded with PCBs and mercury. 
This cannot continue without devastating consequences for all living things.
So, an article that explicitly encourages/enforces a healthy environment 
should, imo, be added. I think it is that important.

Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Governments role in society.


 Hi,

 I'm not so sure if the following would even be possible;

 6) No private land ownership, however a system that puts people on the
  land for prosperity in agriculture through ley and organic means.

 In the county in which I live there would be enough decent property to
 allow every now existing households to prosper engaging in agricultural
 means.  I suppose it depends on how you define prosper, but I'm certain
 we wouldn't having this exchange in the manner we are.  Owning a
 computer and purchasing Internet service would be luxuries.

 Doug, N0LKK
 Kansas USA

 JJJN wrote:
 Since I am USA born and raised, I've only been to Canada 5 times I have
 a limited experience in life with what others experience concerning
 Government and its role in ones daily life.  One of the things I like
 about this list is the variety of international differences shared every
 so often.  A question has come to mind pondering what is the role a
 government should play in life and in what ways should not interfere.
 If I was going to start a new Country I came up with a list of things
 that I would want it to do.  Since this list is mine, it is narrow and
 one sided, but I would love to hear what others think so I may expand my
 thinking on these things.

 My List:
 1) Freedom of speech.
 2)  Separation  of Church and State combined with Freedom of Religion (I
 think this is in name only in the USA currently but at least we have a
 choice still).
 3) The right to keep and bare arms.  ( I eat what I kill and I kill my
 meat with a gun or bow this may offend but I live by ways as old as dirt
 - may they be legal).
 4) All Funding for the expenses of government to come from Business and
 Corporation only. (this means it would be unlawfully to tax the populace)
 5) Government through representation of the people by the people.
 6) No private land ownership, however a system that puts people on the
 land for prosperity in agriculture through ley and organic means.
 7) No private ownership of wildlife. Subsistence hunting allowed when
 needed.
 8)

 ?

 Help!
 Jim


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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense

[Mike Weaver]

Interestingly, (according to a Washington Post article) dogs interpret 
leaning forward with a hand outstretch as a threatening gesture, whereas 
slightly leaning back with your hands at your sides is non-threatening.

MK DuPree wrote:

Thanks Keith...very respectful.  Thank you.  Mike DuPree

- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense


  

LOL...amen brother...have to use the whole coin.  The List is helping me 
do
so.  I've also printed out and am keeping in front of the Credo for JtF.
Also keeping on my desktop a shortcut to the words of the song and the 
song
itself.
  

Golly, Mike. I do hope it helps.



Ok...so now more fatheadedness...what is Namaste?
  

Literally I bow to you. Other people say it here too.

I've said O kage samade here a couple of times. It's because
smileys don't do Japanese bows. It means Thankyou, a certain kind
of thankyou, literally: In your shadow I thrive.

I have some reservations about the following, on Namaste. For one
thing, I don't think India or the East have a sole franchise on
spiritual wisdom any more than the West has a sole franchise on
crass materialism.

But it explains what Namaste means. Its use seems to be spreading on
the Internet, and elsewhere. A useful addition, IMHO.

Best

Keith



Copyright 1993 by Himalayan Academy.

Shake hands  and  come out fighting.  It's the referee's
final counsel to two pugilists about to beat each other's
brains out with clenched fists.  Even outside the ring, a
handshake can be  a little off-putting.  When one returns
to  the  West  from  an  extended  sojourn  in  Bharat or
elsewhere  in  Asia, the hand suddenly thrust forward can
seem more ominous than friendly, especially  if  the hand
offered is that  of  a  stranger.  Of  course,  one  soon
acclimates and the menacing aspect of this salutation subsides.

Perhaps that  moment of intimidation derives  from the history of
the  handshake. According  to one  anthropologist, the  handshake
evolved in medieval Europe, during the times of knights. It seems
not all were laudable Lancelots or gallant Gallahads. More than a
few  would approach  opponents  with  concealed weapons  and when
within  striking  distance  do  the  needful,  driving  dagger or
striking sword into the unguarded paladin.

To  fend off  the fear  of  a  foe's foul  foil, knights  took to
offering their open and visibly empty  hand to each other. It was
a kind  of surety,  a gesture  of trust  which said,  See, I  am
unarmed, so you  may safely let me approach.  As the story goes,
soon the gesture itself took on  meaning and the less noble, less
lethal man on the street adopted  the handshake as the proper way
to greet others.

In much of  the world today, people do not  shake hands when they
meet. They may hug formally or  kiss one another on the cheek, as
in  eastern Europe  and Arab  states. They  may bow  softly, eyes
turned  to  the  ground,  as  in  Japan  and  China. The Hawaiian
greeting, termed  honi, consists of placing  the nostril gently
beside that of  the person greeted, a kind  of sharing of breath,
which is life and Pran(a).

For, Hindu(s),  of course, the  greeting of choice  is Namaste,
the two hands  pressed together and held near  the heart with the
head  gently bowed  as one  says, Namaste.  Thus it  is both  a
spoken  greeting and  a gesture,  a Mantr(a)  and a  Mudr(a). The
prayerful hand position is a Mudr(a) called Anjali, from the root
Anj, to  adorn, honor, celebrate  or anoint. The  hands held in
union  signify  the  oneness  of  an  apparently dual cosmos, the
bringing together of  spirit and matter, or the  self meeting the
Self. It has been said that  the right hand represents the higher
nature  or  that  which  is  divine  in  us,  while the left hand
represents the lower, worldly nature.

In   Sanskrit   Namas   means,   bow,  obeisance,  reverential
salutation. It  comes from the root  Nam, which carries meanings
of bending,  bowing, humbly submitting and  becoming silent. Te
means to you.  Thus namaste means I bow to  you. the act of
greeting  is called  Namaskaram, Namaskara  and Namaskar in
the varied languages of the subcontinent.

Namaste has become a veritable icon of what is Bharatiye. Indeed,
there  must  be  a  Bharatiye  law  which  requires  every travel
brochure. calendar and poster to include an image of someone with
palms   pressed  together,   conveying  to   the  world  Bharat's
hospitality,  spirituality and  graceful consciousness.  You knew
all that, of course, but perhaps  you did not know that there can
be subtle ways of enhancing the gesture, as in the West one might
shake another's  hand too strongly to  impress and overpower them
or too briefly, indicating the withholding of genuine welcome.

In  the  case  of  Namaste,  a  deeper  veneration  is  sometimes
expressed  by bringing  

Re: [Biofuel] Are your free plans being sold on eBay?

[Mike Weaver]

Redler, I think you owe me a refund. 
I'm sending your pdf's back.

Keith Addison wrote:

Just to add, I wouldn't want anybody to generate any pdf files from 
the material at JtF, whether for sale or for non-sale or for anything.

JtF is not public property, and there's not much about it that's 
haphazard and unplanned. It's not Biofuel list property either.

It's not because we haven't considered it that pdf's and print 
versions are not for sale and not available.

Different media of delivery have different effects, and the 
differences are important even if not very many people notice it. You 
use the right ones for the job.

We'd perhaps use pdf's for a different job, but then it wouldn't just 
be website material dumped into Acrobat as-is, it would mean a 
complete makeover, of a large amount of material. Then again, 
obviously we'd make them available for download at the JtF website, 
that's where people who want the information go anyway.

I wouldn't consider changing our strategy on this (nor anything) for 
the sake of a few mosquitoes biting people at ebay, not even if they 
were biting us too (but they're not biting us).

JtF isn't broken, please don't fix it.

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Best

Keith



  

Hi Chris, and all who replied, thankyou...



Keith Addison wrote:
  

I keep getting complaints about this guy who sells bits of the JtF
website on eBay. He's not the only one.

Quite a few people have reported him and complained about him, but
it doesn't work, eBay won't cooperate, they're pretty much
complicit. Maybe he could be put out of action but it would be a
lot of work, and someone else would replace him soon enough. He
doesn't actually do us any direct injury and we're too busy to
chase him, so we grin and bear it. There's one born every minute,
especially on eBay, and probably one yllar17 born every minute too,
but we're more interested in the other 259 people born every minute.




Have you considered a very easy way of stopping this?
Just compile a pdf of all the information and put it up on ebay as a
buy it now for something like $0.01. Offer it via email and donate
the proceeds to a charity! This would stop people profiting off of
other peoples concerns for the environment. Only problem is who
would distribute it! Maybe you could put on your paypal preferences
a link to where it can be downloaded? when someone buys it they will
recieve the invoive and have the link there. Or why not place a
number of ads on ebay quoting the site where it can be downloaded
free? Noone needs to buy the item because the info is given away
freely. I would happily list the item is someone wants to generate a
pdf file.

Chris..
  

... but I don't really want to stop it. It's not bothering us. The
main reason I posted it is in case any other list members have
resources that the guy's selling. It happens all the time, I just got
another complaint about someone called velvet_fist doing the same
thing with JtF stuff at eBay. I think it's a general Internet
phenomenon, it won't go away even if the individuals responsible are
stopped. Like crime. It's not the only phenomenon at work though,
what's the overall effect?

Maybe I just have a slightly different attitude to pests.
Everything's organically grown round here, even websites and mailing
lists, and fighting pests isn't the best way to do it. They're not
pests unless they do you damage. If they are doing you damage it's
not an eradication problem, it's a management problem, and in effect
the pests are telling you where the problem lies. Without them you
wouldn't know it.

Maybe that all sounds a little idealistic, but it works. Not only
that, nothing else works.

Thanks!

Best

Keith




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Re: [Biofuel] Are your free plans being sold on eBay?

[Mike Redler]

Dude, it wasn't me!

I'm talking to a guy in Nigeria who's trying to secure the inheritance 
of an exiled prince. He said that if I put his name on my bank account, 
they will have a safe place to put the money until everything settles 
down - and I get to keep the interest!!

:-)

- Redler

Mike Weaver wrote:
 Redler, I think you owe me a refund. 
 I'm sending your pdf's back.

 Keith Addison wrote:

   
 Just to add, I wouldn't want anybody to generate any pdf files from 
 the material at JtF, whether for sale or for non-sale or for anything.

 JtF is not public property, and there's not much about it that's 
 haphazard and unplanned. It's not Biofuel list property either.

 It's not because we haven't considered it that pdf's and print 
 versions are not for sale and not available.

 Different media of delivery have different effects, and the 
 differences are important even if not very many people notice it. You 
 use the right ones for the job.

 We'd perhaps use pdf's for a different job, but then it wouldn't just 
 be website material dumped into Acrobat as-is, it would mean a 
 complete makeover, of a large amount of material. Then again, 
 obviously we'd make them available for download at the JtF website, 
 that's where people who want the information go anyway.

 I wouldn't consider changing our strategy on this (nor anything) for 
 the sake of a few mosquitoes biting people at ebay, not even if they 
 were biting us too (but they're not biting us).

 JtF isn't broken, please don't fix it.

 Thanks again for all the suggestions.

 Best

 Keith
 

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Re: [Biofuel] Cars runs on water and Other Nonsense

[Mike Weaver]

Family is from Pratt, mother grew up in Wichita.  Spent Summers in 
Kansas (yuck).  Uncle is in Fairway...
Wheat farmers...

Kansas has changed radically in the past 30 years IMHO...

MK DuPree wrote:

 Sorry, for got to include subject...too happy

 - Original Message -
 *From:* MK DuPree mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 *Sent:* Sunday, May 21, 2006 11:25 AM
 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] no subject

 Hey Jesse (and Jason and Mike Weaver)...thanks so much,
 Jesse...for both me /and/ you.  Changing location not out of the
 question, probably Canada (sorry friends to the North...might be
 gettin another fathead!!!), but gotta stick for now where I am,
 which OH...HEY Jason and Kate...My wife, Kathy, and I live in
 Lawrence.  And Weaver...you gotta be shittin me...you have
 family in Shawnee Mission??!!!...I graduated from Shawnee Mission
 North in 1970 LOL...and lived just about 2 blocks to its southwest
 south of 61st St. on Robinson (6135 Robinson St.)...when there
 used to be a field and woods across the street out my front door
 to the west and a huge field out my back door to the east.  It's
 all crowded now with apartment buildings and cars and general
 feeling ad nauseum.  Anyway, isn't this something.  Journey to
 Forever is helping me immensely get out of the box I need to get
 out of for now, then I can think about the next box and lay all
 /that/ on the List lol...Mike DuPree
  
 - Original Message -
 From: mark manchester [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 11:52 AM
 Subject: [Biofuel] no subject

  Hi Keith, Mike,
  Yessir, Keith, I did.
 
 
 
 Did you read Mike's previous message Jesse, below?
 
 Keith
 
 Independence is an illusion.  I recognize individuality,
 but independence...NOT  Every individual one of us is part of
 the same planet and ultimately the ever changing universe.  This is
 the truth; this is true.  More specifically, we each breathe the
 same air, drink the same water, eat the same dirt, at least as
 concerns the source.  But it doesn't look, feel, taste, etc, that
 way because we each receive a modification of the source.  Some get
 more of the source than others.
 
  and
 
 This List is a wonderful place
 to help keep a guy honest and precise with his words.  I've tried to
 do that, and I'm sure the LIST will help me do that better.  We're
 all on a JourneyToForever, and the best any of us can do, it seems
 to me, is to be here to help ease the pain of our individuality a
 little or a lot.
 
  This is true and a very different message from below, the one I
 responded
  to, about the locusts, the polluted river, hopelessness and the
 gun at his
  side.  My suggestion (ill-considered as usual, will I never
 learn?) was that
  if Mike feels as boxed in as he sounds, perhaps different
 geography would
  help, referring to the example Zeke recently set, in trying to
 change his
  life, leave a job he hated, make changes to his life to make
 himself more
  satisfied. 
 
 Each of us must discover that for him or herself.
  Mike DuPree
 
 From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 11:30:57 -0500
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Car runs on water and Other Nonsense
 
 
 Hi D and List...Looking forward to watching What The Bleep Do We
 Know?  Checked out the website, synopsis, and trailer.  Wow. 
 Thanks
 D.
 Big Energy, Big Government, Big Religion, Big Bad...why do I
 feel so sad?  Just ain't no hope for the little guy...probably
 never
 was.  David vs Goliath just another fairy tale.  I HAVE A
 DREAM...
  Sorry pops, just a dream.  The mountain of insolvency just too Big
 too overcome.  Dang me, dang me, guess I'll take a rope and hang
 me.  No hope anywhere...oh!...build myself a biodiesel plant...but
 wait...my neighbor's doin same.  Last one to the WVO loses!!!
  Another dream defiled.  Where's my bicycle...gotta be a problem
 there too...frame made in China???  Go buy some food...too stupid,
 poor, lazy, or just simply born at the wrong time in the wrong
 place
 to grow my own, to say nothing of the locust invasion last year
 that
 kept me out of the fields and meant me needing to buy from who
 knows
 where on the planet...DANG ME  What a rotten Reality.  Oh, I
 see, not 

Re: [Biofuel] Are your free plans being sold on eBay?

[Mike Weaver]

Boy, that's a coincidence - I have deal going with a nice man in Nigeria 
who is going the help me with Sani Abacha's fortune!

Nice to know we'll both be rich...

Mike Redler wrote:

Dude, it wasn't me!

I'm talking to a guy in Nigeria who's trying to secure the inheritance 
of an exiled prince. He said that if I put his name on my bank account, 
they will have a safe place to put the money until everything settles 
down - and I get to keep the interest!!

:-)

- Redler

Mike Weaver wrote:
  

Redler, I think you owe me a refund. 
I'm sending your pdf's back.

Keith Addison wrote:

  


Just to add, I wouldn't want anybody to generate any pdf files from 
the material at JtF, whether for sale or for non-sale or for anything.

JtF is not public property, and there's not much about it that's 
haphazard and unplanned. It's not Biofuel list property either.

It's not because we haven't considered it that pdf's and print 
versions are not for sale and not available.

Different media of delivery have different effects, and the 
differences are important even if not very many people notice it. You 
use the right ones for the job.

We'd perhaps use pdf's for a different job, but then it wouldn't just 
be website material dumped into Acrobat as-is, it would mean a 
complete makeover, of a large amount of material. Then again, 
obviously we'd make them available for download at the JtF website, 
that's where people who want the information go anyway.

I wouldn't consider changing our strategy on this (nor anything) for 
the sake of a few mosquitoes biting people at ebay, not even if they 
were biting us too (but they're not biting us).

JtF isn't broken, please don't fix it.

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Best

Keith

  


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Re: [Biofuel] Conversion tyo diesel

[Mike Weaver]

The Toyota is a bolt-in...just need the motor.  Jeep is more hassle.

Perry Jones wrote:

Well, I for one would love to do a diesel conversion on my '97 Jeep 
Wrangler 5 speed.  Well, I'd also love to do it on my '94 Toyota pickup 
5 speed.  Then I'd be 100% diesel, which is the goal.  I'd sort of given 
up here in the 4th World but if you can get a nice Toyota diesel for 
both, them I'm in with both feet.
Perry


lres1 wrote:

  

Hello all,
 
If any one wants to make a light truck or 4 wheel drive such as Ford, 
Chev or Jeep conversion to a Toyota or some such Diesel engine there 
are some quite easy steps to achieving it using the original 
transmission etc. Can do this on the JtF sight as can give pictures 
and instructions.
 
If you want to know how to fabricate the adapters we can do it on the 
JtF sight. If this is okay with the admin.
 
Doug

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Re: [Biofuel] CEI runs PRO CARBON DIOXIDE ADS

[DHAJOGLO]

Clearly the solution is not to hate CEI, but to kill all of the gazelles; what 
with their nasty CO2 poluting ways.  Its orginazations like CEI that keep the 
Daily Show in business.



This is a joke...Right?  I mean, surely ExxonMobil doesn't think that
we are ALL THIS DUMB, RIGHT?

The (surreal) videos of the 2 commercials:  http://streams.cei.org/

Backed by ExxonMobil.  Denialists with a vested interest.

Resources:
About CEI:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute
 http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Competitive_Enterprise_Institute

Reuters: http://tinyurl.com/jfdcb

--
Thanks,
PC

He's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch

We don't know a millionth of one percent about anything. - Thomas A Edison

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Re: [Biofuel] Government's role in society.

[Chip Mefford]

D. Mindock wrote:
 Hi Jim,
I think number 4 could be dangerous. What if a corporation wanted to 
 withhold their taxes for some
 reason?
   I'd modify number 5:
 5) Government through representation of the people by the people.
 to this:
 5) Government through representation of only the people, by only the people, 
 for only the
 people. (No wiggle room on this one)

Should be,   (should, as in I know I researched this years ago, and
it seemed feasible, legal) to -undo- the corporate 'personhood'
legislation.

I think that alone would move things along in the right direction
quite well.

If memory serves, the whole concept of corporate personhood stems
from a (no doubt intentional) misreading of a California state supreme
court case summary from the early 20th century, having to do with
railroad right of way.

I don't have it in front of me. But others could google it out.

Actually, now that I think about it, the case law was actually clear,
but the summary was written by the clerk of court (a railroad company
man) who wrote the summary to imply the court had ruled exactly opposite
from the way they had actually ruled. This summary was then used to
set precedent in other similar cases in other states.

--

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[Biofuel] Jock's peanut sheller

[mark manchester]

We're terribly proud.  We used to live on a tugboat in Toronto harbour with
this imaginative guy, who is now living in Wilmington, N.C.
It's a nice bit of appropriate technology.  We even have a pic of him and
his sheller with Jimmy Carter, .
Jesse

http://www.starnewsonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200660317066


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Re: [Biofuel] Government's role in society.

[Keith Addison]

D. Mindock wrote:
  Hi Jim,
 I think number 4 could be dangerous. What if a corporation wanted to
  withhold their taxes for some
  reason?
I'd modify number 5:
  5) Government through representation of the people by the people.
  to this:
  5) Government through representation of only the people, by only 
the people,
  for only the
  people. (No wiggle room on this one)

Should be,   (should, as in I know I researched this years ago, and
it seemed feasible, legal) to -undo- the corporate 'personhood'
legislation.

I think that alone would move things along in the right direction
quite well.

If memory serves, the whole concept of corporate personhood stems
from a (no doubt intentional) misreading of a California state supreme
court case summary from the early 20th century, having to do with
railroad right of way.

I don't have it in front of me. But others could google it out.

Actually, now that I think about it, the case law was actually clear,
but the summary was written by the clerk of court (a railroad company
man) who wrote the summary to imply the court had ruled exactly opposite
from the way they had actually ruled. This summary was then used to
set precedent in other similar cases in other states.

The corporate role is one key factor and spin is the other side of the coin.

There are signs that public awareness about corporate impacts on 
society is rising.[1] A 1999 industry-sponsored global survey warned 
that citizens in general feel that protecting the environment and the 
health and safety of employees are more important corporate 
responsibilities than making a profit.[2] In the U.S., a 2000 
Business Week/Harris poll noted with some alarm that 40% agree and 
32% somewhat agree that business has gained too much power over 
too many aspects of American life.[3] Likewise, there are 
indications that progressive movements around the world are 
increasingly focusing on the role of the corporation, even among 
liberal groups for which this is new terrain.
http://www.rachel.org/bulletin/index.cfm?issue_ID=2499
Environmental Research Foundation - Rachel's Weekly

Good resources at Rachel's, as usual.

And here:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Corporations/Corporate_watch.html
corporate watch

http://www.poclad.org/
POCLAD - Program on Corporations, Law and Democracy

This is all hotlinked at the website:

http://www.corporations.org/system/

How the System Works (or doesn't work) and What to Do About It

* Of the world's 100 largest economic entities, 51 are now 
corporations and 49 are countries. (see chart)
* The world's top 200 corporations account for over a quarter of 
economic activity on the globe while employing less than one percent 
of its workforce. (source)
* The richest 1 percent of Americans own 40 percent of the nation's 
household wealth (as of 1997). (source)
* The assets of the world's 358 billionaires exceed the combined 
annual incomes of countries with 45 percent of the world's people. 
(source)
* The average CEO in the U.S. made 42 times the average workers pay 
in 1980, 85 times in 1990 and 531 times in 2000. (source)
* The courts have given corporations the basic Constitutional rights 
of persons, but workers lose those rights on entering the workplace.
* The corporate share of taxes paid has fallen from 33 percent in the 
1940's to 15 percent in the 1990's. Individuals' share of taxes has 
risen from 44 to 73 percent.
* The World Trade Organization effectively gives corporations veto 
power over our U.S. environmental and labor laws, weakening your 
right to protect ourselves and our land by our legislation.

If this bothers you, read on and then do something about it.

If you don't know why corporate power is a problem, here are some 
websites that will explain the concept.

Challenge Corporate Power, Asserting the People's Rights campaign of 
the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom. They have a 
full Corporate Power Study Curriculum and Organizing Packets.

Timeline of Corporate Rights vs. People's Rights (also from WILPF)

Know Thine Enemy - A Brief History of Corporations

A Call to Citizens: Real Populists Please Stand Up!

Third World Traveler - magazine articles and book excerpts that offer 
an alternative view to the corporate media about the state of 
democracy in America

Corporate Control of American Democracy

Reclaim Democracy is dedicated to restoring democratic authority over 
corporations, reviving grassroots democracy, and revoking the power 
of money and corporations to control government and civic society.

Aurora Institute - promotes an understanding of how the very 
structure of modern institutions directly influences many of the 
social, economic and environmental problems we face in modern society.

Program on Corporations, Law and Democracy (POCLAD) and their Taking 
Care of Business booklet which started the modern anti-corporate 
movement, inspiring the groups above and local groups like:


* Democracy Unlimited of 

Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio

[Appal Energy]

Keith,

 Todd, you live in Ohio. Didn't this make any local
 waves at the time, or during the subsequent court proceedings?

Not a peep. But that doesn't mean that it didn't get press. Probably more local 
than state.

 If you read down a bit there's a lot of detail, a lot of reporting,
 and it's not particularly unusual stuff that's being reported.
 There's about 30kb of copy there. Not a bad job, some of it.

No detail. Considerably slanted. Why not, as a reporter, paint a 
complete/composite picture for the readership rather than play on emotions? No 
need to answer that, as any side would try to manipulate in their favor. But 
where are the facts to support the outrage? Hell, anyone can get outraged. But 
that doesn't necessarily mean the outrage is justifiable.

If the judge forbade the vast majority of a defense, the press has an 
obligation to the readership to describe what was forbidden and perhaps even go 
a little further and offer up the rationale as to why it was. That wasn't done 
here. Had it been, chances are pretty good that they would have gotten 
considerably more mileage out of the issue.

Here's a snippet of the original article, in sequential pieces:

From the beginning, this trial was stacked against Carol, and was meant 
to be a vicious message to anyone who thinks or acts outside of the box. 
Judge McGinty wouldn't allow Carol and her attorneys the ability to wage 
a defense.

WHY? There has to be a reason, whether it be legal or personal.

The only relevent testimony was that provided by the state.

WHY? There has to be a reason, again either legal or personal.

No politics was allowed into the trial. Nothing about the brutal and 
arrogant reputation of the Cleveland Heights police.

Precedent/reputation does not necessarily guarantee perpetual or even 
current practice.

Nothing about how Carol was the one assaulted by the police

WHERE? In what sequence and under what circumstances. Few things happen 
in a vacuum. Even if they did, where's the time line?

and then humiliated at University Hospital when she was taken there for 
her injuries.

Post prosecution/acquittal civil suit?

The testimony of a courageous EMS worker who was afraid for Carol's 
safety from the police rampage was cut to a mere 4 minutes.

Again, in what sequence of the events? It was obviously after the 
posting of fliers and apparently after the initial altercation, elsewise 
EMS probably wouldn't have been present. That opens up yet another 
avenue for civil suit. If it occurred during an attempt by the perp to 
remove fliers in an orderly manner as directed or some similar set of 
circumstances then there are grounds for an upper court to dismiss the 
conviction and strong grounds for an excessive force / civil suit.

Where are the facts in the article to support the contentions being 
made? Absent... Aggregiously so.

Only one character witness was allowed, and then only for a couple 
minutes.

Character witnesses are generally for sentencing hearings. Actual 
witnesses are the primary need in the prosecutorial phase.

The judge refused to inform the jury of a serious lie by the 
prosecution during closing testimony.

Again, dismissal in an upper court.

The first article created hundreds more questions than it supplied 
answers. Fair and balanced reporting would have helped stop the 
oscillation of the scales not encourage them.

Outrage this event may be. But knee jerk isn't the best way to bring 
light or informed public outcry to this matter or any other.

Todd Swearingen


Keith Addison wrote:

I wonder what this is all about. I don't see any crop circles or 
UFOs, no Round Tables, Bilderbergers or Freemasons, no New World 
Government, I didn't even see the S-word. It would be kind of strange 
to protest that this isn't happening in the US now and just write it 
off to hysterical over-emotionalism.

This isn't right:

  

One was poorly written, with no facts, only telling a reader what they
should think or feel. It wasn't an article, it was an incitement.
  


That's this one, that D. posted first:

http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=1029Itemi
Activist Brutalized and Arrested by Police for Postering

If you read down a bit there's a lot of detail, a lot of reporting, 
and it's not particularly unusual stuff that's being reported. 
There's about 30kb of copy there. Not a bad job, some of it. You can 
read poorer stuff in the NYT. There's a lot of reportage in any news 
archives about similar events elsewhere, and that it's been spreading 
ever wider.

Sure, check it out, check out the NYT too, check everything out. If 
you want facts then you'll have to go and wear out some shoe 
leather. Otherwise you can be satisfied with other things, like 
widespread corraboration, other kinds of spot checks you can make and 
so on, it's not impossible.

That's not what's happening here though, this is a deadlock.

Todd, you live in Ohio. Didn't this make any local waves at the 

Re: [Biofuel] Governments role in society.

[Doug Younker]

Doug, N0LKK
Kansas USA

Keith Addison wrote:


 Why?


Why what? :)  One meaning of prosper would be, the ability provide for 
basic, of basic needs.  Why wouldn't there be enough decent property to 
allow all current households in my county to prosper by agricultural 
means?  There just isn't.  Yes there is good pasture and tillage, but 
having it associated with good water and roads is a crapshoot. Prosper 
could additionally mean an ability to produce a surplus for trade for 
items you can't produce yourself.  A computer and Internet service would 
be purchased with that surplus, compared to other need items, they would 
be luxuries.  Along with a lot of other items and activities now taken 
or granted.  Even today there are plenty of households that don't have 
both a computer and Internet service.
Doug

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Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio

[Keith Addison]

Hi Todd

Keith,

  Todd, you live in Ohio. Didn't this make any local
  waves at the time, or during the subsequent court proceedings?

Not a peep. But that doesn't mean that it didn't get press. Probably 
more local than state.

  If you read down a bit there's a lot of detail, a lot of reporting,
  and it's not particularly unusual stuff that's being reported.
  There's about 30kb of copy there. Not a bad job, some of it.

No detail. Considerably slanted.

So you keep saying.

Why not, as a reporter, paint a complete/composite picture for the 
readership rather than play on emotions? No need to answer that, as 
any side would try to manipulate in their favor.

Uh-huh?

But where are the facts to support the outrage? Hell, anyone can get 
outraged. But that doesn't necessarily mean the outrage is 
justifiable.

If the judge forbade the vast majority of a defense, the press has 
an obligation to the readership to describe what was forbidden and 
perhaps even go a little further and offer up the rationale as to 
why it was. That wasn't done here. Had it been, chances are pretty 
good that they would have gotten considerably more mileage out of 
the issue.

Here's a snippet of the original article, in sequential pieces:

From the beginning, this trial was stacked against Carol, and was meant
to be a vicious message to anyone who thinks or acts outside of the box.
Judge McGinty wouldn't allow Carol and her attorneys the ability to wage
a defense.

Yes, Todd, that's the second paragraph. Actually there's more than 
5,800 words at that url. You've taken ALL of your quotes and examples 
from ONLY the first piece, just 487 words, less than a tenth of 
what's there. I said If you read down a bit. Why didn't you read 
down a bit? There's also this:

Not Guilty says woman arrested after hanging anti-Bush posters

by Eric Resnick, 2/16

CLEVELAND -- The woman arrested and accused of assaulting police 
officers after hanging World Can't Wait posters in Cleveland Heights 
January 28 was arraigned in Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court 
February 16.

Carol Fisher, 53, a resident of the inner-ring suburb known for its 
liberalism was charged with two counts of assaulting Cleveland 
Heights police officers Daniel Downey and Mike Frinzl.

According to her statements, Fisher was hanging posters announcing 
the World Can't Wait Cleveland action during the State of the Union, 
when a passing officer told her it was a $100 fine if she didn't 
take it down.

Fisher turned and walked toward the poster, in compliance with the 
officer's warning. But instead of allowing her to take it down or 
just issuing a citation, Downey and Frinzl were on top of her 
grinding his knee into [Fisher's] back and [her] face into the 
sidewalk.

Fisher said she told the officers she could not breathe. That didn't 
matter. Two more officers showed up, and they dragged her to a 
bench, shackled her legs, and handcuffed her tight enough to cause 
serious bruising.

Fisher objected to her arrest, telling the officers that as 
citizens we have the responsibility to stop the crimes of the Bush 
regime.

According to her statements, this inflamed the officers. One told 
her, I am sick of this anti-Bush shit, and they threatened to kill 
her. You are definitely going to the psych ward, said another. And 
that's where she ended up, incommunicado, even to her Power of 
Attorney for health care. University Hospitals personnel were 
forbidden by the police to allow visitors or for Fisher to make a 
phone call.

Fisher appeared before Judge Kathleen Sutula 
http://www.cuyahogacounty.us/common/Judges/sutulak.htm , a 
Republican known throughout legal circles for her partisanship and 
contempt for defendants. She was flanked by her attorneys, Daniel 
Shields and Terry Gilbert.

A copy of the indictment was not given to Fisher or her counsel 
until that morning. Ohio law requires that service be made at least 
24 hours prior to the arraignment.

Shields waived the 24 hour notice and entered a plea of not guilty 
on behalf of his client.

Prior to Sutula's entrance into the courtroom, Gilbert had an 
altercation with AssistantCuyahoga County prosecutor Deborah Naiman, 
who is not assigned to Fisher's case.

In an obvious attempt to show power, and a signal that the case is a 
priority, Naiman badgered Gilbert across the courtroom.

What city was this? Naiman, out of her seat, walking toward 
Gilbert shouted, You know and everyone knows it's against the law 
to hang posters there. And it's Cleveland Heights. Not exactly known 
as a hotbed of Bush support.

And that's not what you do to police, Naiman continued. You don't 
attack police when they are trying to arrest you.

Remaining seated, Gilbert maintained his client's innocence and 
suggested that the facts will come out in court.

But Naiman's enthusiasm for the hard line against Fisher is also 
suggested by case timelines.

The grand jury indicted Fisher February 6, eight days after the arrest.

Felony 

[Biofuel] mixing

[ricalls]

during my learning process i blended a liter of 10% petrol diesel with 
90% biodisel that i had made. after 2 weeks of sitting in a bottle on 
the shelf, the petrol diesel settled to the bottom. is this normal over 
time? did i not mix thoroughly enough?
  r. allison

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Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio

[Mike Weaver]

Gotta go with Keith on this one - I read everything I could find on this 
and I was so upset I emailed everyone in Cleveland Heights
I could.  I am appalled at how this terribly dangerous 53 year old 
woman was treated.

-Mike

Keith Addison wrote:

Hi Todd

  

Keith,



Todd, you live in Ohio. Didn't this make any local
waves at the time, or during the subsequent court proceedings?
  

Not a peep. But that doesn't mean that it didn't get press. Probably 
more local than state.



If you read down a bit there's a lot of detail, a lot of reporting,
and it's not particularly unusual stuff that's being reported.
There's about 30kb of copy there. Not a bad job, some of it.
  

No detail. Considerably slanted.



So you keep saying.

  

Why not, as a reporter, paint a complete/composite picture for the 
readership rather than play on emotions? No need to answer that, as 
any side would try to manipulate in their favor.



Uh-huh?

  

But where are the facts to support the outrage? Hell, anyone can get 
outraged. But that doesn't necessarily mean the outrage is 
justifiable.

If the judge forbade the vast majority of a defense, the press has 
an obligation to the readership to describe what was forbidden and 
perhaps even go a little further and offer up the rationale as to 
why it was. That wasn't done here. Had it been, chances are pretty 
good that they would have gotten considerably more mileage out of 
the issue.

Here's a snippet of the original article, in sequential pieces:

From the beginning, this trial was stacked against Carol, and was meant
to be a vicious message to anyone who thinks or acts outside of the box.
Judge McGinty wouldn't allow Carol and her attorneys the ability to wage
a defense.



Yes, Todd, that's the second paragraph. Actually there's more than 
5,800 words at that url. You've taken ALL of your quotes and examples 
from ONLY the first piece, just 487 words, less than a tenth of 
what's there. I said If you read down a bit. Why didn't you read 
down a bit? There's also this:

  

Not Guilty says woman arrested after hanging anti-Bush posters

by Eric Resnick, 2/16

CLEVELAND -- The woman arrested and accused of assaulting police 
officers after hanging World Can't Wait posters in Cleveland Heights 
January 28 was arraigned in Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court 
February 16.

Carol Fisher, 53, a resident of the inner-ring suburb known for its 
liberalism was charged with two counts of assaulting Cleveland 
Heights police officers Daniel Downey and Mike Frinzl.

According to her statements, Fisher was hanging posters announcing 
the World Can't Wait Cleveland action during the State of the Union, 
when a passing officer told her it was a $100 fine if she didn't 
take it down.

Fisher turned and walked toward the poster, in compliance with the 
officer's warning. But instead of allowing her to take it down or 
just issuing a citation, Downey and Frinzl were on top of her 
grinding his knee into [Fisher's] back and [her] face into the 
sidewalk.

Fisher said she told the officers she could not breathe. That didn't 
matter. Two more officers showed up, and they dragged her to a 
bench, shackled her legs, and handcuffed her tight enough to cause 
serious bruising.

Fisher objected to her arrest, telling the officers that as 
citizens we have the responsibility to stop the crimes of the Bush 
regime.

According to her statements, this inflamed the officers. One told 
her, I am sick of this anti-Bush shit, and they threatened to kill 
her. You are definitely going to the psych ward, said another. And 
that's where she ended up, incommunicado, even to her Power of 
Attorney for health care. University Hospitals personnel were 
forbidden by the police to allow visitors or for Fisher to make a 
phone call.

Fisher appeared before Judge Kathleen Sutula 
http://www.cuyahogacounty.us/common/Judges/sutulak.htm , a 
Republican known throughout legal circles for her partisanship and 
contempt for defendants. She was flanked by her attorneys, Daniel 
Shields and Terry Gilbert.

A copy of the indictment was not given to Fisher or her counsel 
until that morning. Ohio law requires that service be made at least 
24 hours prior to the arraignment.

Shields waived the 24 hour notice and entered a plea of not guilty 
on behalf of his client.

Prior to Sutula's entrance into the courtroom, Gilbert had an 
altercation with AssistantCuyahoga County prosecutor Deborah Naiman, 
who is not assigned to Fisher's case.

In an obvious attempt to show power, and a signal that the case is a 
priority, Naiman badgered Gilbert across the courtroom.

What city was this? Naiman, out of her seat, walking toward 
Gilbert shouted, You know and everyone knows it's against the law 
to hang posters there. And it's Cleveland Heights. Not exactly known 
as a hotbed of Bush support.

And that's not what you do to police, Naiman continued. You don't 
attack police when they are trying to arrest you.

[Biofuel] Harper misquided to cut energy efficiency and renewable energy programs

[AltEnergyNetwork]

Here's a prime example of right wing muddled thinking. We can pretty
well forget about this government implimenting improved energy 
efficiencies and alternative energy tech development.
The (Canadian) Harper government moves to mirror Bush's oil soaked madness.
He should be ashamed of himself.



Blowing in the wind - Harper misguided to cut energy efficiency and renewable 
energy programs, says Roger Peters

 http://snipurl.com/qtld 

 
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1c=Articlecid=1148077814321call_pageid=968256290204col=968350116795
 





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updated daily

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Re: [Biofuel] mixing

[JJJN]

I dont think so given a steady atmosphere I dont know why they wouldn't 
separate. I have seen Bio gel into snowflakes amidst # 1 diesel. even 
thought they mix well that does not go to say that over time they won't 
separate either.

Jim

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

during my learning process i blended a liter of 10% petrol diesel with 
90% biodisel that i had made. after 2 weeks of sitting in a bottle on 
the shelf, the petrol diesel settled to the bottom. is this normal over 
time? did i not mix thoroughly enough?
  r. allison

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Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio

[Appal Energy]

I've got a simple answer for you Keith.

I read the first part. Didn't much care for the partiality and lack of 
facts. Started to read the second part and got a little tired of hearing 
the sales pitch. I know it well. I shout it from the mountain tops in 
one way shape or form and have for decades. And I didn't see any sense 
in reading much farther.

Had I known that the meat of the matter was in the last part of a 
lengthy novella I would have started there and adopted a completely 
different perspective from the get go.

And don't call me to task for laziness and not scrolling down. Maybe the 
next time someone posts something like this they could take a few 
seconds up front to point out that the facts are embedded four pages 
down and hiding behind the question mark so everyone else can cut to the 
chase?

Isn't there a rule of thumb in journalism to put the facts up front and 
the filler and side bars after?

Not that the sections were written and assembled by journalists. But 
even a web pressman up to his elbows in soy-based ink knows how to put a 
story across in better fashion. Been that. Done there.

Todd Swearingen


Keith Addison wrote:

Hi Todd

  

Keith,



Todd, you live in Ohio. Didn't this make any local
waves at the time, or during the subsequent court proceedings?
  

Not a peep. But that doesn't mean that it didn't get press. Probably 
more local than state.



If you read down a bit there's a lot of detail, a lot of reporting,
and it's not particularly unusual stuff that's being reported.
There's about 30kb of copy there. Not a bad job, some of it.
  

No detail. Considerably slanted.



So you keep saying.

  

Why not, as a reporter, paint a complete/composite picture for the 
readership rather than play on emotions? No need to answer that, as 
any side would try to manipulate in their favor.



Uh-huh?

  

But where are the facts to support the outrage? Hell, anyone can get 
outraged. But that doesn't necessarily mean the outrage is 
justifiable.

If the judge forbade the vast majority of a defense, the press has 
an obligation to the readership to describe what was forbidden and 
perhaps even go a little further and offer up the rationale as to 
why it was. That wasn't done here. Had it been, chances are pretty 
good that they would have gotten considerably more mileage out of 
the issue.

Here's a snippet of the original article, in sequential pieces:

From the beginning, this trial was stacked against Carol, and was meant
to be a vicious message to anyone who thinks or acts outside of the box.
Judge McGinty wouldn't allow Carol and her attorneys the ability to wage
a defense.



Yes, Todd, that's the second paragraph. Actually there's more than 
5,800 words at that url. You've taken ALL of your quotes and examples 
from ONLY the first piece, just 487 words, less than a tenth of 
what's there. I said If you read down a bit. Why didn't you read 
down a bit? There's also this:

  

Not Guilty says woman arrested after hanging anti-Bush posters

by Eric Resnick, 2/16

CLEVELAND -- The woman arrested and accused of assaulting police 
officers after hanging World Can't Wait posters in Cleveland Heights 
January 28 was arraigned in Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court 
February 16.

Carol Fisher, 53, a resident of the inner-ring suburb known for its 
liberalism was charged with two counts of assaulting Cleveland 
Heights police officers Daniel Downey and Mike Frinzl.

According to her statements, Fisher was hanging posters announcing 
the World Can't Wait Cleveland action during the State of the Union, 
when a passing officer told her it was a $100 fine if she didn't 
take it down.

Fisher turned and walked toward the poster, in compliance with the 
officer's warning. But instead of allowing her to take it down or 
just issuing a citation, Downey and Frinzl were on top of her 
grinding his knee into [Fisher's] back and [her] face into the 
sidewalk.

Fisher said she told the officers she could not breathe. That didn't 
matter. Two more officers showed up, and they dragged her to a 
bench, shackled her legs, and handcuffed her tight enough to cause 
serious bruising.

Fisher objected to her arrest, telling the officers that as 
citizens we have the responsibility to stop the crimes of the Bush 
regime.

According to her statements, this inflamed the officers. One told 
her, I am sick of this anti-Bush shit, and they threatened to kill 
her. You are definitely going to the psych ward, said another. And 
that's where she ended up, incommunicado, even to her Power of 
Attorney for health care. University Hospitals personnel were 
forbidden by the police to allow visitors or for Fisher to make a 
phone call.

Fisher appeared before Judge Kathleen Sutula 
http://www.cuyahogacounty.us/common/Judges/sutulak.htm , a 
Republican known throughout legal circles for her partisanship and 
contempt for defendants. She was flanked by her attorneys, Daniel 
Shields and 

Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio

[Appal Energy]

Please see response to Keith's post.

I spent fifteen minutes sifting through several weeks of their archives 
just to get a snippet of the facts before I first replied. But I 
certainly can't spend hours hunting down what's relative and culling out 
what's not.

That was the point of my post. Where are the facts? Took another three 
or four posts before someone finally provided them. Call it an error of 
omission on my part. I call it someone not having any free time on his 
hands - nada, none, zippo, zilch - to read on, and on, and on, and on 
until something came to the surface.

As for your volley of e-mails? Should the presumption be made that you 
live in the area and didn't know about it 'till now?

Todd Swearingen



Mike Weaver wrote:

Gotta go with Keith on this one - I read everything I could find on this 
and I was so upset I emailed everyone in Cleveland Heights
I could.  I am appalled at how this terribly dangerous 53 year old 
woman was treated.

-Mike

Keith Addison wrote:

  

Hi Todd

 



Keith,

   

  

Todd, you live in Ohio. Didn't this make any local
waves at the time, or during the subsequent court proceedings?
 



Not a peep. But that doesn't mean that it didn't get press. Probably 
more local than state.

   

  

If you read down a bit there's a lot of detail, a lot of reporting,
and it's not particularly unusual stuff that's being reported.
There's about 30kb of copy there. Not a bad job, some of it.
 



No detail. Considerably slanted.
   

  

So you keep saying.

 



Why not, as a reporter, paint a complete/composite picture for the 
readership rather than play on emotions? No need to answer that, as 
any side would try to manipulate in their favor.
   

  

Uh-huh?

 



But where are the facts to support the outrage? Hell, anyone can get 
outraged. But that doesn't necessarily mean the outrage is 
justifiable.

If the judge forbade the vast majority of a defense, the press has 
an obligation to the readership to describe what was forbidden and 
perhaps even go a little further and offer up the rationale as to 
why it was. That wasn't done here. Had it been, chances are pretty 
good that they would have gotten considerably more mileage out of 
the issue.

Here's a snippet of the original article, in sequential pieces:

From the beginning, this trial was stacked against Carol, and was meant
to be a vicious message to anyone who thinks or acts outside of the box.
Judge McGinty wouldn't allow Carol and her attorneys the ability to wage
a defense.
   

  

Yes, Todd, that's the second paragraph. Actually there's more than 
5,800 words at that url. You've taken ALL of your quotes and examples 


from ONLY the first piece, just 487 words, less than a tenth of 
  

what's there. I said If you read down a bit. Why didn't you read 
down a bit? There's also this:

 



Not Guilty says woman arrested after hanging anti-Bush posters

by Eric Resnick, 2/16

CLEVELAND -- The woman arrested and accused of assaulting police 
officers after hanging World Can't Wait posters in Cleveland Heights 
January 28 was arraigned in Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court 
February 16.

Carol Fisher, 53, a resident of the inner-ring suburb known for its 
liberalism was charged with two counts of assaulting Cleveland 
Heights police officers Daniel Downey and Mike Frinzl.

According to her statements, Fisher was hanging posters announcing 
the World Can't Wait Cleveland action during the State of the Union, 
when a passing officer told her it was a $100 fine if she didn't 
take it down.

Fisher turned and walked toward the poster, in compliance with the 
officer's warning. But instead of allowing her to take it down or 
just issuing a citation, Downey and Frinzl were on top of her 
grinding his knee into [Fisher's] back and [her] face into the 
sidewalk.

Fisher said she told the officers she could not breathe. That didn't 
matter. Two more officers showed up, and they dragged her to a 
bench, shackled her legs, and handcuffed her tight enough to cause 
serious bruising.

Fisher objected to her arrest, telling the officers that as 
citizens we have the responsibility to stop the crimes of the Bush 
regime.

According to her statements, this inflamed the officers. One told 
her, I am sick of this anti-Bush shit, and they threatened to kill 
her. You are definitely going to the psych ward, said another. And 
that's where she ended up, incommunicado, even to her Power of 
Attorney for health care. University Hospitals personnel were 
forbidden by the police to allow visitors or for Fisher to make a 
phone call.

Fisher appeared before Judge Kathleen Sutula 
http://www.cuyahogacounty.us/common/Judges/sutulak.htm , a 
Republican known throughout legal circles for her partisanship and 
contempt for defendants. She was flanked by her attorneys, Daniel 
Shields and Terry Gilbert.

A copy of the indictment was not given to Fisher or her counsel 

Re: [Biofuel] Government's role in society.

[JJJN]

I really don't mind corporations, and I like to see them make a profit 
when it means prosperity for all, I just dont like the powers in 
Govrnment to be persuaded and corrupted by those profits. Yes this one 
needs some work,

Thanks
Jim

D. Mindock wrote:

Hi Jim,
   I think number 4 could be dangerous. What if a corporation wanted to 
withhold their taxes for some
reason?
  I'd modify number 5:
5) Government through representation of the people by the people.
to this:
5) Government through representation of only the people, by only the people, 
for only the
people. (No wiggle room on this one)
And I'd add another article that strongly limits what is really the root of 
all our problems, the
immoral/unethical, inhumane influence of multinational corporations which 
now control most of the world's
governments and indirectly, their people. This is the elephant in the room, 
imo. Corporations are
not people or a person and deserve no special treatment. The welfare of the 
people should be paramount to all considerations.
In this vein, the environment is part and parcel of the welfare of the 
people. You can't ignore it or trash it without it coming
back to ruin your day, and your life. Corporations, as a rule, don't give a 
hoot about the environment. We are all stuck on a small planet that is 
getter more polluted every day. The oceans are loaded with PCBs and mercury. 
This cannot continue without devastating consequences for all living things.
So, an article that explicitly encourages/enforces a healthy environment 
should, imo, be added. I think it is that important.

Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Governments role in society.


  

Hi,

I'm not so sure if the following would even be possible;

6) No private land ownership, however a system that puts people on the


land for prosperity in agriculture through ley and organic means.
  

In the county in which I live there would be enough decent property to
allow every now existing households to prosper engaging in agricultural
means.  I suppose it depends on how you define prosper, but I'm certain
we wouldn't having this exchange in the manner we are.  Owning a
computer and purchasing Internet service would be luxuries.

Doug, N0LKK
Kansas USA

JJJN wrote:


Since I am USA born and raised, I've only been to Canada 5 times I have
a limited experience in life with what others experience concerning
Government and its role in ones daily life.  One of the things I like
about this list is the variety of international differences shared every
so often.  A question has come to mind pondering what is the role a
government should play in life and in what ways should not interfere.
If I was going to start a new Country I came up with a list of things
that I would want it to do.  Since this list is mine, it is narrow and
one sided, but I would love to hear what others think so I may expand my
thinking on these things.

My List:
1) Freedom of speech.
2)  Separation  of Church and State combined with Freedom of Religion (I
think this is in name only in the USA currently but at least we have a
choice still).
3) The right to keep and bare arms.  ( I eat what I kill and I kill my
meat with a gun or bow this may offend but I live by ways as old as dirt
- may they be legal).
4) All Funding for the expenses of government to come from Business and
Corporation only. (this means it would be unlawfully to tax the populace)
5) Government through representation of the people by the people.
6) No private land ownership, however a system that puts people on the
land for prosperity in agriculture through ley and organic means.
7) No private ownership of wildlife. Subsistence hunting allowed when
needed.
8)

?

Help!
Jim

  


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Re: [Biofuel] Governments role in society.

[Doug Younker]

  My post had nothing to do with wealth, energy,y just my doubts that 
your #6 is even achievable.  Perhaps my reply to Keith's Why? further 
explained my point.  Do you believe a Government through representation 
of the people by the people, regardless of the form it would take would 
outlaw private land ownership?
Doug, N0LKK
Kansas USA

JJJN wrote:
 I disagree,
 The land is any nations wealth, when everything else is gone it is the 
 land that will still give. We kid ourselves if we think wealth lies in 
 gold. If you spread the land out to allow ley farming you create an 
 abundance that is not dependant on an unrenewable resource such as 
 modern agriculture.   Abundances create  trade and trade  allows for  
 luxuries.  Remember why do you suppose that people came from almost 
 every country on earth in the early days to get free land in this 
 country - to have the opportunity to prosper. What do you think would 
 have happened if there Oil and coal was never discovered?  Would we be a 
 nation still a horseback? Not we would have developed technology just 
 the same but it would be along much more sustainable lines.  I think Oil 
 and Coal has Derailed our natural progression in an artificial manner.  
 And unless some fool discovers perpetual energy and gives modern man 
 that (then we can give up hope) we will soon learn where we left off.  
 But as some say lets not rest until we have released every carbon atom 
 into air.
 
 My best,
 Jim
 
 Doug Younker wrote:
 
 Hi,

  I'm not so sure if the following would even be possible;

 6) No private land ownership, however a system that puts people on the
 land for prosperity in agriculture through ley and organic means.
 In the county in which I live there would be enough decent property to 
 allow every now existing households to prosper engaging in agricultural 
 means.  I suppose it depends on how you define prosper, but I'm certain 
 we wouldn't having this exchange in the manner we are.  Owning a 
 computer and purchasing Internet service would be luxuries.

 Doug, N0LKK
 Kansas USA

 JJJN wrote:
  

 Since I am USA born and raised, I've only been to Canada 5 times I have 
 a limited experience in life with what others experience concerning 
 Government and its role in ones daily life.  One of the things I like 
 about this list is the variety of international differences shared every 
 so often.  A question has come to mind pondering what is the role a 
 government should play in life and in what ways should not interfere.  
 If I was going to start a new Country I came up with a list of things 
 that I would want it to do.  Since this list is mine, it is narrow and 
 one sided, but I would love to hear what others think so I may expand my 
 thinking on these things.

 My List:
 1) Freedom of speech.
 2)  Separation  of Church and State combined with Freedom of Religion (I 
 think this is in name only in the USA currently but at least we have a 
 choice still).
 3) The right to keep and bare arms.  ( I eat what I kill and I kill my 
 meat with a gun or bow this may offend but I live by ways as old as dirt 
 - may they be legal).
 4) All Funding for the expenses of government to come from Business and 
 Corporation only. (this means it would be unlawfully to tax the populace)
 5) Government through representation of the people by the people.
 6) No private land ownership, however a system that puts people on the 
 land for prosperity in agriculture through ley and organic means.
 7) No private ownership of wildlife. Subsistence hunting allowed when 
 needed.
 8)

 ?

 Help!
 Jim

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 messages):
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 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
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 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
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 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
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Biofuel at Journey 

Re: [Biofuel] Government's role in society.

[Michael Redler]

Jim wrote: "I really don't mind corporations, and I like to see them make a profit when it means prosperity for all."Divided World: Rich Live Longer, Poor Die Youngerhttp://www.commondreams.org/headlines/062900-01.htmThose who want wealth, will have it. Since there is no individual who's work represents hundreds of times the value of his/her employees, you arrive at two simple conclusions - that corporations are a means of building wealth off the backs of others and that those whoown those corporations are obsessed with building empires and monuments to themselves, off the backs of others.The size ofa corporation is a measure of theambition to build that empire and monument.The only thing that can fight the devastating effects of corporate greed is public consensus and a movement built from that consensus. The sooner that greed
 effects public policy and makes enough people suffer, the sooner the public will wake up to what's going on around them and react to it.  MikeJJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I really don't mind corporations, and I like to see them make a profit when it means prosperity for all, I just dont like the powers in Govrnment to be persuaded and corrupted by those profits. Yes this one needs some work,ThanksJimD. Mindock wrote:Hi Jim, I think number 4 could be dangerous. What if a corporation wanted to withhold their taxes for somereason? I'd modify number 5:5) Government through representation of the people by the people.to this:5) Government through representation of only the people, by only the people,
 for only thepeople. (No wiggle room on this one)And I'd add another article that strongly limits what is really the root of all our problems, theimmoral/unethical, inhumane influence of multinational corporations which now control most of the world'sgovernments and indirectly, their people. This is the elephant in the room, imo. Corporations arenot people or a person and deserve no special treatment. The welfare of the people should be paramount to all considerations.In this vein, the environment is part and parcel of the welfare of the people. You can't ignore it or trash it without it comingback to ruin your day, and your life. Corporations, as a rule, don't give a hoot about the environment. We are all stuck on a small planet that is getter more polluted every day. The oceans are loaded with PCBs and mercury. This cannot continue without
 devastating consequences for all living things.So, an article that explicitly encourages/enforces a healthy environment should, imo, be added. I think it is that important.Peace, D. Mindock- Original Message - From: "Doug Younker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 1:39 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Governments role in society.[snip]___
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