Re: [Biofuel] MaGnesol is... was Re: Manesol pretreatment and washing
Keith Addison wrote: Very nice Todd. The end result of this biodiesel washing with Magnesol is that you will have used a lot of water and a lot of time. Me thinks they need a proof reader. LOL! Methinks they do. Would you agree that such slips are telling? Just circumstantial evidence, but still. There is a problem, it's much more difficult to get 100% accurate proofreading onscreen than on paper (you can probably find typos at JtF too). But that stray Magnesol in there is just sloppy, what else is sloppy? Something to add might be whether Magnesol really does give the same results. If it's time-saving that's the aim there are ways round that without becoming more dependent on anyone. I don't accept it gives better-quality results unless maybe you're starting with a poorly completed product, in which case the magnesol is just masking the problem (like mist-washing). You can easily get within the standard specs with well-made homebrew biodiesel plus a few hours spent stir-washing it. If you GC'd the result and compared it with a sample of the same batch of homebrew dry-washed with Magnesol, what would it show? Has anybody seen such results? Best Keith The presumption is made that the following is from Dallas Group's PR about Magnesol. .. Water in biodiesel is not a good idea. Most people would agree this is a true statement. Dohhh!!! Perhaps that's why it's removed? Yet most people continue to wash their biodiesel with water, and then go on to dry their biodiesel after washing. The end result of this biodiesel washing with Magnesol is that you will have used a lot of water and a lot of time. Me thinks they need a proof reader. That and they conveniently(?) neglect to mention that use of Magnesol uses a lot of Magnesol and probably some rather hefty energy inputs. On the Magnesol side: A) Magnesol is not universal. B) Use of Magnesol marries the manufacturer to a vendor. C) Rather costly filter presses are required to remove Magnesol from the fuel stream. D) Expended Magnesol must be handled as a solid waste, inclusive of the filtrate. E) Energy expenditures are required to manufacture and transport synthetic magnesium silicate (Magnesol). As a parenthetical aside, suggestion has been made and perhaps research conducted on feeding the expended Magnesol (sodium silicate) with filtrate to livestock. Soap, glycerol, FFA, mono- and di-glyceride laden sodium silicate as animal feed. Positively yummy, no doubt. This seems almost reminiscent of the days when feeding cement dust to livestock was not abnormal. On the water side: A) Water is universal, by and large. B) Water has a dual utility, as easily treated wash water can be reused as gray water irrigation. C) Acid/Base systems don't require inordinate amounts of water (or Magnesol for that matter). There is an extra heating cycle in a water wash system than a dry wash (Magnesol). Both flash the methanol from the fuel prior to washing. But the water wash system requires elevating from wash temperature to flash temperature. Both systems can use the heat recovered from their final flash to preheat the feedstock. This is where the energy equation between the two systems should be constructed to see precisely which uses more energy - manufacturing, transporting, filtering and disposing of Magnesol or elevating the temperature of the cooled, wet-washed, fuel to flash temp. Doubtful that Dallas Group would divulge their energy expenditures from manufacturing. All in all they both have their place. Neither is necessarily superior over the other. Todd Swearingen Bruno M. wrote: The main reason I am trying out Magnesol is because it is going to be MUCH easier to integrate into my continuous process than water washing. I saw some test data from Biodiesel magazine (March 2005), which compared 2 samples. One was water washed and one was Magnesol washed, the test results from the Magnesol washed sample were superior. Have you done any tests with Magnesol to come to your conclusion that it is inferior to water washing? Have you evidence that these results are indeed incorrect, or doctored in any way? Where I live the only water I have available is heavily treated to be potable and it is currently getting scarse (Drought orders are already in effect in South England, the last time this happened was in the 70's) So personally if I can find a way around utilising a scarce and precious commodity then I will try it, is that not why we are here! I have nowhere at my workplace to collect rainwater and it would be unrealistic to transport water collected at home to my workplace where I process my diesel! Extracts from the said article: IOWA STATE UNIVERSITY OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY College of Engineering Mechanical Engineering Department 2025 Black
Re: [Biofuel] MaGnesol is... was Re: Manesol pretreatment and washing
Appal Energy wrote: B) Use of Magnesol marries the manufacturer to a vendor. I believe there are alternative brands of synthetic magnesium silicate on the market, several at a lower cost. I am currently looking into this, several posts on online forums suggest this also. C) Rather costly filter presses are required to remove Magnesol from the fuel stream. Not exactly. A cheap and readlily available sock filter and gravity will do the trick with very little investment. There are commercially available filter units which are big bucks, but in the spirit of the JTF site I doubt many people here would have any difficulty in suspending a 5 micron sock filter over a collecting drum. Wont look as nice as a commercially bought stainless filter unit, but thats not always an issue. The units I have seen in the commercial sector are simply a stainelss enclosure taking a £9.99 for 10 sock filter and a pump. D) Expended Magnesol must be handled as a solid waste, inclusive of the filtrate. The manufacturer claims disposal by composting, the filters are non consumable. E) Energy expenditures are required to manufacture and transport synthetic magnesium silicate (Magnesol). As they are to treat and pump water, and to treat sewerage. I agree it would be nice to know the true energy costs, but where do you stop? I remember at Uni reading a paper about nuclear power stations. A group of students started doing energy calculations, adding up everything it took to run a power plant (and I mean everything!!) right down to the fuel used to transport materials to the brickworks to make the bricks to build the plant! They concluded that they couldnt possibly have factored in all the energy, but on what they had it was something like a 25-30 year running time before the break even point was reached!! On the water side: A) Water is universal, by and large. Tell that to those people in S England who face having theirs turned off soon! ;-)) B) Water has a dual utility, as easily treated wash water can be reused as gray water irrigation. Assuming that you are in the situation where you need irrigation, if not then it is going to get drained. Not being critical of your comments at all, just factoring in my situation, which is probably the same as many here. I have nothing else to do with my wash water but to put it down the drain. All in all they both have their place. Neither is necessarily superior over the other. I agree. As I have said, I am aiming to get a small scale semi-continuous process online soon to process the WVO of a small group of people. I feel this will be beneficial over lots of small processor running individually. Integrating magnesol washing it going to be far easier than integrating water washing as every gallon squirt out of the processor could be dosed with magnesol, mixed for a number of minuites then dumped into a tank to be gravity fed through a filter bag. Todd Swearingen Bruno M. wrote: Magnesol, with a G in it, and not Manesol like in the title ;-) Sorry for the typo! is used in the US to clear ( resfresh) frying oil and makes it last longer. Erm, sorry you have lost me, what is resfresh? ;-) The end result of this biodiesel washing with Magnesol is that you will have used a lot of water and a lot of time. I see, this error that was mentioned earlier (magnesol not water) was on the website of a third party distributor of Magnesol, not from Magnesol themselves. I was getting a bit woried there for a moment with all the mention of 'sloppyness'. ;-) Chris.. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] MaGnesol is... was Re: Manesol pretreatment and washing
Keith Addison wrote: You seem rather cross, Chris. Not at all, lol, I just get the impression that it was you opinion that using anything other than water for cleaning biodiesel was a big 'no no'. The way your response came across read to me like that. I apologise if I misread you. I reached no such conclusion. I expressed a valid doubt and asked for some evidence. The burden of proof is not on me nor on the consumer when the makers of a commercial product make claims for it, it's on them. I don't accept it gives better-quality results unless maybe you're starting with a poorly completed product, in which case the magnesol is just masking the problem (like mist-washing). I read this as you opinion being that the results from my experiments were some how 'made up'. My results showed that I can wash my product quicker with magnesol and that this is the result I am looking for with my process in mind. I agree its up to the manufacturer to provide evidence, and they comissioned a report to find the answers, it is readlily available in the public domain. You're siding with risk assessment, we go by the Precautionary Principle here, we ask questions, and is that not why we are here!. As do I. I am a professional engineer and havent got by on taking things for granted and not requiring proof of principles when integrating new techniques, processes, and technologies. You say 'we ask questions'? But what questions have been asked? I have simply made available to a group of people who are interested in biofuels my results from utilising a variation in the process, nothing more, nothing less. I would expect a better way forward for the current biofuel technologies would be to discuss these variations, and see if they are a step forwards, or indeed backwards. Your previusly quoted comment suggests that you have no belief that this is the case here, and you admitted yourself that you have seen no evidence. I feel this is not the way to move forward. Who's trying to stop you? I wasnt aware that anybody was! Not sure what agve you the idea that I was considering binning the idea. On the other hand, as we all know or should by now, the water resource you'd be using need not be wasted, and I'm afraid I have to ask whether you use a flush toilet that uses fresh water? I do indeed flush my toilet with fresh water. Attractive as it may be to carry waste wash water from work 20 miles to home to refill the cistern, I doubt the practical aspects of doing this would go without a frown or two from the wife. :-D You've provided us with one reason anyway for using Magnesol (presuming it passes the other hurdles Todd mentioned, and me), and you've also offered some test results below, which is what I asked for though I haven't read them yet, so what's the problem? Isn't that why we're here? Just re-read Todds message and although I can see a few important issues he mentioned regarding energy expenses, as to actual hurdles in the way of integrating magnesol into a process I see none. Would you say that you've reached a stage with learning the process where you can easily make homebrew biodiesel yourself that gets within the standard specs with a few hours spent stir-washing it so you can do some comparative tests yourself? I didn't get the impression that was established with the results you gave us, please correct me if I'm wrong. Best Keith I have indeed. If you refer to the fact that I over 'lyed' the test batches then the reason for this was quite deliberate. In the event of a misreading, miscalculation or mismeasurement during a process then the water washing stage offers the ability to correct the oversight. I wanted to be sure that a magnesol wash could cope with this. If a measured dose of magnesol can cope with a soapy batch diesel then it can certanly cope with a good batch. If I had not done this then I would have had no 'safety factor' in my conclusions. I will leave this subject at that and make no more mention of it. I was interested in getting feedback and ideas on the technical/chemistry side of things, maybe this is not the place to do that. Chris.. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Manesol pretreatment and washing
Been having a play with a bag of Magnesol this week with impressive resuts. I made a sample batch of diesel, went over the top with the lye by about 2 grams per litre. I added the magnesol powder to the finished, seperated diesel and mixed for about 5 minuites. I removed the magnesol by filtering thru coffee filters several times (it was quite difficult to get it all out without a fine enough filter). The result is crystal clear biodiesel. I mean CRYSTAL clear, much better than I have EVER been able to get with water washing. Adding water to the diesel yields quick seperation, clarity is still 100% and the wash water is perfectly clear. 10grams per litre of magnesol has removed EVERY trace of soap and contaminants. Lets just say I will no longer be water washing. The next experiment was based on the claims that magnesol neutralises FFA. I got 2 samples of WVO and filtered them. One 250ml sample was treated with about 1.5g of magnesol and mixed for abut 10 minuites. The magnesol was filtered out of the sample. BOTH samples were processed as new oil with 3.5g lye per litre and 250ml meth per litre. After seperation and cooling the pretreated sample is clear, and the byproduct is a redish colour. The untreated sample shows an uncomplete reaction and a very dark nearly black byproduct. I have yet to try water washing these samples. It appears that the magnesol pretreatment has removed the ffa content and then the oil has been able to be processed as new oil. It should be quite easy to integrate into a process by adding an arbitrary amount of magnesol to the feedstock and mixing, PH measurements will tell you if more needs to be added. The waste magnesol, according to manufactutrers literature, can be composted, put into landfill, and even used as animal feed. The magnesol washing could be integrated into a semi continuous process easily, which is why I am looking at it. Another comment is that when using it for washing biodiesel it also seems to remove colour and odour from the biodesel. The magnesol washed samples are always paler than the water washed samples. If the used magnesol is put into water it instantly goes cramy white, as it gives up the soaps etc that it has absorbed. Kieth, if you are interested I have some photos of the different samples tested and washed. Maybe you could incorporate something aout it into the JTF page? If anyone wants these photos emailed let me know! I was impressed. Chris Bennett ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Are your free plans being sold on eBay?
Keith Addison wrote: I keep getting complaints about this guy who sells bits of the JtF website on eBay. He's not the only one. Quite a few people have reported him and complained about him, but it doesn't work, eBay won't cooperate, they're pretty much complicit. Maybe he could be put out of action but it would be a lot of work, and someone else would replace him soon enough. He doesn't actually do us any direct injury and we're too busy to chase him, so we grin and bear it. There's one born every minute, especially on eBay, and probably one yllar17 born every minute too, but we're more interested in the other 259 people born every minute. Have you considered a very easy way of stopping this? Just compile a pdf of all the information and put it up on ebay as a buy it now for something like $0.01. Offer it via email and donate the proceeds to a charity! This would stop people profiting off of other peoples concerns for the environment. Only problem is who would distribute it! Maybe you could put on your paypal preferences a link to where it can be downloaded? when someone buys it they will recieve the invoive and have the link there. Or why not place a number of ads on ebay quoting the site where it can be downloaded free? Noone needs to buy the item because the info is given away freely. I would happily list the item is someone wants to generate a pdf file. Chris.. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes
Bob Carr wrote: - Original Message - From: Chris Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 8:29 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes Hi Chris, Have you tried the sugar catalyst for yourself yet? Looking forward to reading your results. Who is making this catalyst in the UK? or alternatively do you have a make it at home recipe? I would love to give it a go. I am also working on a continuous processor down here in Northants, although it seems I am a few steps behind you. I would be happy to compare notes if you want. Right now on ebay uk there are a couple of very useful looking peristaltic pumps that could be used for metered feeding of methoxide and wvo into a continuous processor. Please keep me posted on your progress Regards Bob I have just got a small sample of the catalyst. I plan to make 2x 0.5 litre batches on my hotplate stirrer. 1 with lye as normal 1 with sugar. I will boil off the excess methanol and measure the quantities of byproduct produced to compare the lack of soap claims. I will do some wash tests to see how clean the diesel is. looks like instant coffee granules, it would be quite easy to enclose a quantity in a mesh cylinder and place inside one of the reactor pipes after the pump. Or even have a short length of pipe with a strainer at the downstream end filled with the stuff, just pump the mix over it repeatedly. Just unscrew the length of pipe and 'top up' when required. Maybe a piece of translucent hose could be incorporated to give a visual indication of you catalyst levels. As long as it could be removed to top it up, or have an access point upstream of the strainer to pour more in it should work fine. Chris.. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Tha catalyst is apparently made as follows: Place sugar into a sealed container and purge the air with notrogen, alternatively feed a small amount of nitrogen into the container during cooking to keep the air out. Heat to 350 degrees C and hold for about 15 hours (I think, not 100% on time) Then remove the burnt sugar and place in concentrated sulphuric acid at 150 degrees C for several hours. Wash repeatedly with deinonised water and then its ready for use. Have got a 2nd hand oven last week to try (dont fancy using the one in the kitchen as its going to need to go 100 degrees over the maximum!) will wire in a temperature controller next week and see if it can cope with the extra temperature. My processor is not continuous, but more like semi-continuous. I have designed it on the assumptions that: the more vigarous the mixing the quicker the reaction. the higher the temperature the greater the energy available to make the reaction happen the pressure needed because of the high temperature operation will also increase the energy available. I read a paper about some studies using 'supercritical' methanol and claims were made of reaction times on small samples being quoted in seconds! The processor consists of 3 stages each stage has a mixer and contains 6 litres. A pair of stainless pnumatic cylinders will push measured quantities of oil and methoxide in every x minuites (x to be determined my trial and error) the fresh mix will consist of 3 litres and will displace 3 litres from reactor 1 into reactor 2 where it will recieve another x minuites of mixing, the next charge will displace it into reactor 3 and so on until it gets spat out into an evaporator tower at a temperature where the methanol should start to flash off immediately. After leaving the heated evaporator it will enter a seperating tower sized so that seperation only has to occur over about 2.3cm of depth. The products will be injected into the seperating tower at the point of seperation and this will allow a good several hours of seperating time before it overflows from the top. Glycerine will be drained automatically using an optical sensor at the bottom of the tower. I need to experiment with the results of Magnesol washing to see if the wash stage can also be included into the processor. I currently produce only about 4-500 litres a month and I collect my oil monthly. The legislation in the UK means I have
Re: [Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes
Mark` Cookson wrote: Hellow Chris I am in the UK too [Lancashire].Could you help me out as to where are the best places for putting a kit together [what is your semi-processor and where can you get methanol from? Much appreciated!! Regards Mark I am in sunny Lancashire too, Wigan to be exact. I get my methanol from a guy in Burscough nr Ormskirk. Most of my current kit is either scrapyard or ebay in origin. The semi processor is stainless steel construction and I got the tubing etc form a company in Bradford. The controls etc are once again ebays finest. Its not up and running yet, it might not even work! Will keep u informed and if u want you can come over and have a look when it starts spitting fuel out! Chris.. If you want the guys number for the meth let me know. He charges about £80-90 for a 205l drum. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes
Mark` Cookson wrote: Chris Thanks for getting back to me that is great I would love to come down to sunny wigan and have a look. Thanks again for the methanol link too !!! Will contact you again soon. Cheers mate speak soon. Mark My mate got 3 drums from him today, he has put his prices up to £93 a drum. Not sure if he will just sell to anyone but if you get stuck let me know and I can always get a drum for you. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes
Jason Katie wrote: they a discussing the sugar catalyst in detail at http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/9771067631/p/1 if i am reading these people's experiences right, the catalyst is made by partially breaking down a sugar molecule by heating it, and then introducing an acid (H2SO4). this creates a nanobot of sorts by attatching the acidic molecules to the pyrolized sugar near a basic branch, giving us the acid/base process on an infinitely small scale repeated trillions of times per second, and barely depleting the catalyst (theyre still debating useful lifespans of the material). i cannot vouch for any of these statements as true or false, but with all the research going on around the subject, and the fact that these people have attempted it, then it may have an extreme value if not interest. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ I have just got a small sample of the catalyst. I plan to make 2x 0.5 litre batches on my hotplate stirrer. 1 with lye as normal 1 with sugar. I will boil off the excess methanol and measure the quantities of byproduct produced to compare the lack of soap claims. I will do some wash tests to see how clean the diesel is. looks like instant coffee granules, it would be quite easy to enclose a quantity in a mesh cylinder and place inside one of the reactor pipes after the pump. Or even have a short length of pipe with a strainer at the downstream end filled with the stuff, just pump the mix over it repeatedly. Just unscrew the length of pipe and 'top up' when required. Maybe a piece of translucent hose could be incorporated to give a visual indication of you catalyst levels. As long as it could be removed to top it up, or have an access point upstream of the strainer to pour more in it should work fine. Chris.. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes
My semi-continuous processor should be operational in about 3-4 weeks. 18 litre capacity, estimated production of 3 litres per 5 minuites. In the UK the environment agency insist on expensive waste management licenses if you produce diesel in batches exceeding 100 litres, but have no regulations limiting the storage of WVO or biodiesel. I am trying to increase my production without falling out of this loophole. If all goes well I should be able to scale up 500% and produce 3 litres per minuite without being naughty in the E.Agencies eyes! Has anyone been using this sugar/acid catalyst thats all the talk at the moment on various forums? Just wondering how people are finding it. I am VERY interested in the sugar catalyst as it appears to produce zero soap. It esterifies as well as transesterify so yield/waste ratio should be significantly higher. A friend tried a small batch and it reacted much quicker than with lye and after seperation the catalyst fell out to be re-used (doesnt dissolve in the mix and is filtered out) and the diesel produced was bottled with water, shaken for several minuites and then after rapid seperation the water was clear. Sounds too good to be true but it seems to be! No more premix catalyst, no more titration, no more washing, no more soap! Hmm... I need to try some I think. It can also be home made! Also I can see advantages with regard the byproduct. Am I correct in saying that the soap is causing the problem with burning the byproduct as a heating fuel? If so then maybe using this method it can be preheated and fed through a waste oil heater, or a mother earth burner? I feel we need to all start doing some experiments with this catalyst and gain as much info as possible as I feel it could be a significant step forwards as long as there are no problems. Having a 2nd hand oven delivered tomorrow to start cooking some sugar to try. Chris Bennett.. I am not suffering from insanity, I am loving every minuite of it! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery
I've been preparing my processing system, done a little in the way of test batches, (1 litre), and lurking on this fine list, absorbing information, and reading a lot on the biodiesel pages. I guess I've got a decent grip on the process and the chemistry involved, but I've had a question that I've not found the answer to yet. If I'm using 20% by volume of methanol to make my methoxide then run the transesterification, I understand that the methanol becomes part of the molecule chain, with some attaching to the glycerides, and some still floating free in the biodiesel which is washed out toward the end of the process. So if I was to distill the glycerides and soap rinse water, about what percentage of the methanol that I put in is likely to still be recoverable with a distillery? Assume that the recipe is the common NaOH/methanol, without the extra steps consisting of the sulfuric or phosphoric acid treatments... I'd like to know about how much of my waste material is going to be recoverable, because as nature shows us, the concept of waste is man-made. There is no waste in nature. Thanks for your input, in advance. doug swanson ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ I have just fitted a condenser to my processor. I use the 2 stage base/base process and add 20 litres of methanol to each 80 litre batch of wvo. I add the byproduct removed after the first stage after the second stage is finished and then boil off the methanol. I am recovering about 6 litres of methanol out of each batch. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] On-farm biodiesel or ethanol
by www.bio-power.co.uk It makes some valid points in my opinion regarding the use of chemicals. I have mentioned this method of fuel production before on this list and got an overwhelming reply with negative comments on this other method of fuel production. I am making biodiesel regularly not as a commercial project or business but simply to run 2 vehicles. I produce batches of 100 litres about 4 at a time once a month and feel that the lack of hazardous chemicals with this other method very attractive. It also suggests a continuous process is a viable option which is also a positive as if I can rig up a processor I will have to spend significantly less time creating my fuel. Has anyone any experience with this type of bio-fuel and what were the results? During email correspondence with bio-power I was told the methods they are using also allow the use of heavily hydrogenated oils such as palm (which is used in most traditional English fish chip shops and is readily available in large quantities) I have made bio diesel with these oils in the past and have had to run a 50/50 mix with fossil diesel to winterise the fuel acceptably (even then I froze the tank twice last winter which is not fun!) I am currently using lots of suppliers of small quantities of various liquid oils. Regards Chris Bennett.. *The difference between Bio-power MUVO and standard Bio-diesel RME? **Are there any dangers or risks in these different forms of bio-fuel?*** Many people ask these same questions, and I must add a few more pages to the web site to deal with this remark. The Bio-power web site is always rather out of date, but we do have a much more detailed members site which is accessible to people who have been on one of the Bio-power Introductory Seminars and wish to become a Bio-power Local Agent within the Bio-power Network. There are a number of reasons why we prefer the unique Bio-power method for making a bio-fuel as Modified Used Vegetable Oil. The process otherwise used to make bio-diesel as a Fatty Acid Methyl Ester has many problems associated with the method of manufacture, problems with the materials used and problems connected with the use of the fuel type itself. *Lets look first at the means of manufacture* As you probably already know, RME (Rapeseed Methyl Ester) is made by shattering the lipid fat molecule to strip the three long hydrocarbon chains from their ester bond. This leaves glycerol as a waste by-product. The process is normally achieved using methanol as the new stem, and caustic soda as the catalyst. The process is called transesterification because the hydrocarbons are swapped from a triple bond with glycerol to a single bond with methanol. The volume of fuel made is therefore less than the volume of fat stock used. For this reason we say it is a 'subtractive' method. The potential energy contained in the glycerol is wasted as a fuel, though it can be used as a sugar in a must to create alcohol. However, there are much more efficient and cheaper sugar sources. Nitric acid and glycerol makes nitro-glycerine a high explosive. All this potential energy is wasted. By comparison, the Bio-power technique is an additive process. We do not use any chemical reactions. We do not need any 'nasty' chemicals like sulphuric acid, methanol and caustic soda. We especially do not like methanol because it is created by the petrochemical industry and is therefore fossil sourced, and our primary aim is to produce alternatives to the use of fossil fuels. We do not create any waste by-product like glycerol, and all the potential energy in the fat stock is made available for use as a fuel. We also make larger volume of fuel than that of the fat feed stock because we add other non-mineral materials to achieve the most cost effective improvement in combustion. Because we do not use the processes of esterification or trans-esterification, we do not need any licences for our process from the Environment Agency. Our process does not require any heat or mixing procedures, and it does not create any vapours or toxic emissions. *If we look at the materials used in the two processes* The manufacture of Bio-diesel requires methanol. This is often misleadingly called wood alcohol as if it were a natural material. In reality it is a product of the petrochemical industry and it is made from fossil hydrocarbons. The process of transesterification transfers the ester bond of lipid fats from glycerol (a plant sugar) to methanol (a fossil hydrocarbon). It is therefore not a wholly non-fossil process, and takes valuable energy stored in a non-fossil material (glycerine) out of the fuel, and replaces it with a fossil derived material whilst claiming to be a carbon neutral fuel. Methanol is also a very active chemical against which the human body has no means of defence. It is absorbed easily through the skin and there is no means of elimination from the body
Re: [Biofuel] The Lutec over unity device
Convenience plus, no more black outs, brown outs, interruptions because of line maintenance, lightning strike, heavy rain, strong wind, fire, cyclone, flood, poor maintenance at power stations. Even if it doesnt provide free energy, this suggests that the magnetic fields inside the device somehow shield your property from rain, cyclones, wind and floods, maybe this would be a better marketing angle? Chris.. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?
Hello Bob and thank you for your input. There should also be pointed out that polymerization may take place in the fuel tank of the vehicle, at least to some extent, since many diesels have leak fuel lines transporting hot fuel to the tank, so the temperature in the tank will rise in proportion to the amount of hot fuel coming in. This may lead to fuel filter clogging. Not instantly, of course, but after a number of hours. Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making? Just a little suggestion on this, I have re-plumbed the return feed from the pump back to the inlet of the filter so the return fuel is circulated straight back into the pump. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: Lutec
Hi All, Some of you real physics guys have to tell me how this thing can possibly work. As near as I know from teaching the subject in school you can't get more energy out of a system than you put in. You can't even get the same energy out that you put in. How in the world can you get 15 times more energy out than you put in? Please help me. I'm lost. Tom Irwin You are quite right. Its absurd. It can't possibly work. I have seen several similar claims in recent years claiming their invention will give 100% power increases they usually ask for donations or deposits somewhere on the site. No mention was given in the site to paying money but I did find a section asking electrical workers to apply to go on one of their 'seminars' to become part of their network of approved installers! Unless of course they are genuine, in which case I am going to sue the university that tought me the fundamental laws of thermodynamics and wasted several years of my life! The sad thing is that these sorts of people often make large sums of money from the less educated amongst us who believe what they are told. Chris.. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Biodiesel additives
Someone posted some information a week or so ago about what chemicals to add to biodiesel to prevent oxidation. Any chance of a repeat of the chemicals in question and also if anyone knows where they can be obtained? I tried www.biofuelsystems.com but I have had no reply to emails or fax's. Regards Chris Bennett.. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
http://www.biofuelsystems.com/products.htm Biodiesel equipment, supplies additives Write to Paul O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED] and tell him I said so. I haven't tried their anti-oxidant but we use their Wintron X30 and they're good people. He's in the UK and so are they, but they're happy to export. Thats handy, he is just 20 miles down the road from me! Chris Bennett.. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methane to LPG car
I think there has to be more than meets the eye on such a conversion. Propane is stored a liquid and I assume methane is as well. Can the propane tanks withstand the pressure required to liquefy methane? Propane contains more energy than methane, will you realize a net savings? In any event I would guess you would have to adjust the fuel/air metering. Doug - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 10:33 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Methane to LPG car : I have an old petrol car (75 mercedes 230.4) converted to LPG recently. : But In the last few months the price of LPG has started to rise. I am : wondering if it is possible to use methane instead of LPG? : : I have a fridge compressor that I can compress the methane in to tanks, : the could I just connect the tank instead of the LPG tank? : : Could somebody tell me if this is doable with ease or would I need to : further convert the engine. : : Thanks Until recently I worked fitting Autogas converisons to petrol vehicles. Methane, or CNG (compressed natural gas) conversions are common. The electronic mixture control kits I used to perform lpg conversions were usually capable of running with CNG with most brands having dedicated kits for this type of conversion (same electronics and fuel metering just different pressure regulators.) Storage is usually by high pressure tanks which are NOT THE SAME as lpg tanks. The pressures are very high as oppose to the 7-10 bar inside a lpg tank. The gas could be stored at something like 100bar and I dont think it liquified at this. It was usual for lots of small cylinders to be fitted in an array in the back of vans etc. refuelling was carried out via an expensive multi stage compressor which was plugged into the filler adaptor each night and the tank was refuelled over night. I was led to believe that compressors were in the region of £5000UK. If the engine is fitted with a closed loop mixture control system you would get away with little or no adjustment to the software as long as the regulator output pressure was matched. You could not use the standard lpg regulator as it would not flow enough gas with a pre-regulator dropping the pressure down to a level that it could take. This is because the lpg regulators are designed to have a liquid feed and expansion into gas form takes place inside it. The first stage of the lpg regulator simply wouldn't be able to flow enough watts of gas vapour to feed the engine. You could pressurise a lpg tank safely to about 10bar and the car would run, it just wouldn't go very far and anything above even a fast idle would make the mixture lean off. It would drive EXACTLY like your current lpg car does when the tank runs dry and the engine is feeding on vapour pressure from the tank. Regards Chris Bennett.. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
On the other hand, it doesn't take very long for it to oxidise after brewing, especially if it's been bubble-washed. In one test some bubble-washed homebrew had oxidised well beyond the EU limit after only a week, and well beyond the abilities of anti-oxidants to stop it hardening. Use it fast, yes, and/or use an anti-oxidant. Best wishes Keith What sort of antioxidants are available? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
(high IV) types of oils? I ask because I am currently producing biodiesel from a supply which consists of about 50% semi hydrogenated pourable vegetable oil (The container does not state which variety of oil it contains) and 50% soy bean oil. This thread is concerning me obviously with regards to the long term effects the fuel may be having on my engine. Will any of the fuel system cleaning treatments available at most vehicle accessory shops have any effect on the buildups generated during combustion? The only other supply of oil I can get hold of is solid palm oil which runs well as long as it is mixed 50% with regular mineral diesel fuel, reducing te environmental and cost insentives accordingly. Will adding a fuel system or injector cleaning product be sufficient (along with more frequent oil changes) prevent any long term problems, and allow me to continue using my current feedstock? Regards Chris Bennett.. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Linseed oil suitability
disposal company. The oil is supplied filtered and dried in clean IBC containers. How suitable will this be for making biodiesel from? I thought I would check here first to see if there were any potential drawbacks with this type of oil before I commit myself to using some. Regards Chris Bennett.. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] affordable methanol in uk
Hi; Is there anybody on this list who knows where to purchase methanol for a reasonable price in the uk, england? JD2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ I used a company called 'Almetron' in Wrexham. They charged about £14 per 25litre drum plus vat. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Transesterification versus solvent/filtering methods
is based on adding solvents and filtering settling the oils into a product suitable for road fuel. The process seems to produce little waste and uses no dangerous chemicals. What are your views on this method as oppose to transesterification? This method does at first glance have its appeals but I am wondering about possible disadvantages. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Cutting biodiesel
oils available for process in my area are solid oils which after processing freeze at even moderate temperatures. I have been performing tests in my vehicle and find it acceptable to run 50% mix with pump diesel. The only time I tried a lower pump diesel percentage unfortunately coincided with an overnight frost and the following morning the car died after about 1/2 mile and took about 3 days to thaw! What would be a better option than pump derv to cut the biodiesel with to give it a wider temperature envelope? I have recently got a supply of pourable hydrogenated WVO but not in quantites that would allow me to run 100% biodiesel. I am currently processing the first 10 gallon batch and the quality of the oil seems poor requiring a LOT of lye to get the reaction moving. I ususally work on the 2 stage base/base method with 6.5g of lye per litre WVO and 25% methanol by volume to oil. This oil turned to an emulsion similar to that depicted on the 'foolproof' method page (http://journeytoforever.org/media/aleks/FP6.jpg) I was forced to add more methanol with a very high level of lye in it to get things 'brewing' Not sure if the problem is the quality of the oil or if the additives used to make it pourable are hindering things. If I can winterise the solid oils better, and get up to about 75% biodiesel I will be happier. Any suggestions? Chris Bennett.. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
