Re: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs
Hi Mike I think your right I will probably head back to the single stage it seem a lot easier. Cheers Ian - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs FWIW, I tried the foolproof method off and on for a qhile and finally went back to the old tried and true. I never could get it to work reliably. Ian Theresa Sims wrote: Some reassurance please. After months of single stage manufacture and reactor modifications I was about to jump into the Foolproof method. But now Bob in a, I assume well equiped Lab can't get the process to work completely. What Gives? How much chance do I have in a back yard with home made and jerry rigged equipment. Alex Kac also states that mixing methanol and sulphuric acid together is can cause serious problems. Once again what gives? Cheers Ian - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs Appal Energy wrote: Bob, Why not drain the small amount of glycerol that settles out of an esterification? The majority of the sulfuric will come out with it. That lessens the amount of base catalyst needed for the follow-up transesterification. again, this is just what I observed: no glycerin settled out after the acid stage. Waiting 8 hours realistically means another day. Additionally, if I do wait and do get some glycerin to settle out with my conditions, wouldn't you think that methanol also would be part of the cocktail, thence affecting the equilibrium? Fewer chemicals in, fewer problems out. Todd Swearingen bob allen wrote: acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs In my lab I have had little success with the acid/base method for biodiesel production. When my students and I tried to duplicate the foolproof method http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html we invariably obtained incomplete reactions, plus the longer preparation time was less attractive. The following is my modification of that procedure which works for us, and takes less time, but requires more catalyst. Dissolve 1 ml sulfuric acid in 150 ml methanol and add to 1 liter liter dry wvo, heat to about 60 Celsius for one hour. Then dissolve 4.9gm NaOH in 50 ml methanol and add to the reaction mixture. Continue heating for an additional hour, stir for one more hour and then let set for 8 or more hours. workup as usual. Now for the why more catalyst. Basically the sulfuric acid used neutralizes some of the base catalyst, hence more must be add to get back to the desired concentration of catalyst. If you don't know moles and equivalents, the following may be abstruse. 1 ml sulfuric acid is 36 milliequivalents, therefore its presence in the reaction mixture neutralizes 36 milliequivalents of NaOH. The simple base catalyzed method requires 3.5 grams NaOH which is 90 milliequivalents. Subtract 36 from 90 and you get 54 milliequivalents of base left. This corresponds to to only 2.1 grams NaOH active active catalyst, the remainder having been converted to Na(2)SO(4), sodium sulfate. In round numbers then you have to add an additional 1.4 grams of NaOH on top of the 3.5 grams called for in the simple procedure. The following instructions are intended for an advanced audience, thoroughly familiar with the simple procedure. To minimize costs we still do a titration. If the wvo titrates at greater than 1.4 ml, we use this modification, less we use the simple procedure. All this having be said, I actually use KOH in my procedure but have done the calculations with NaOH, it works either way, one just has to adjust the molar proportions. Acknowledgment should be given to Kelly Verbel and Josh Lisko, students who worked with me on this part of our biodiesel project. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition
Re: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs
Hi Todd Thanks for the reply but on the JTF site Aleks states not to deviate from any of the instructions and 16 hours of running for a washing machine pump as per Aleks instructions is a bit OTT. I have done a batch as per Aleks recipe and it has totally failed no separation at all. Is there any way of rescueing the batch. Cheers Ian - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs Ian, I think you'll have to ask Bob what it is that is off the mark for him and lends to whatever quandry he may or may not be in. Acid/base works. It just requires some pretty good understanding of what is going on in the reaction, what enhances the reaction and what actions are less than beneficial on the operator's part. There are perhaps only three things that I would suggest to modify in the acid/base process. 1) Allow a 24 hour reaction period, of which at least sixteen are under agitation. 2) Drain off any glycerol that settles out prior to moving to the base stage. As most of the acid will reside there after settling, this will reduce the amount of base catalyst consumed in neutralizing the acid. 3) The eighty mililiters of methanol suggested in the acid stage is sufficient only for conversion of feedstock up to approximately forty percent FFAs. It's almost impossible to imagine any WVO coming from a restaurant that would be that degraded. (If it is, they should be shut down by the local health department.) But it is theoretically possible. Oils that degraded or more will require more methanol in the acid stage and less methanol in the base stage. Todd Swearingen Ian Theresa Sims wrote: Some reassurance please. After months of single stage manufacture and reactor modifications I was about to jump into the Foolproof method. But now Bob in a, I assume well equiped Lab can't get the process to work completely. What Gives? How much chance do I have in a back yard with home made and jerry rigged equipment. Alex Kac also states that mixing methanol and sulphuric acid together is can cause serious problems. Once again what gives? Cheers Ian - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs Appal Energy wrote: Bob, Why not drain the small amount of glycerol that settles out of an esterification? The majority of the sulfuric will come out with it. That lessens the amount of base catalyst needed for the follow-up transesterification. again, this is just what I observed: no glycerin settled out after the acid stage. Waiting 8 hours realistically means another day. Additionally, if I do wait and do get some glycerin to settle out with my conditions, wouldn't you think that methanol also would be part of the cocktail, thence affecting the equilibrium? Fewer chemicals in, fewer problems out. Todd Swearingen bob allen wrote: acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs In my lab I have had little success with the acid/base method for biodiesel production. When my students and I tried to duplicate the foolproof method http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html we invariably obtained incomplete reactions, plus the longer preparation time was less attractive. The following is my modification of that procedure which works for us, and takes less time, but requires more catalyst. Dissolve 1 ml sulfuric acid in 150 ml methanol and add to 1 liter liter dry wvo, heat to about 60 Celsius for one hour. Then dissolve 4.9gm NaOH in 50 ml methanol and add to the reaction mixture. Continue heating for an additional hour, stir for one more hour and then let set for 8 or more hours. workup as usual. Now for the why more catalyst. Basically the sulfuric acid used neutralizes some of the base catalyst, hence more must be add to get back to the desired concentration of catalyst. If you don't know moles and equivalents, the following may be abstruse. 1 ml sulfuric acid is 36 milliequivalents, therefore its presence in the reaction mixture neutralizes 36 milliequivalents of NaOH. The simple base catalyzed method requires 3.5 grams NaOH which is 90 milliequivalents. Subtract 36 from 90 and you get 54 milliequivalents of base left. This corresponds to to only 2.1 grams NaOH active active catalyst, the remainder having been converted to Na(2)SO(4), sodium sulfate. In round numbers then you have to add an additional 1.4 grams of NaOH on top of the 3.5 grams called for in the simple procedure. The following instructions are intended for an advanced audience, thoroughly familiar with the simple procedure. To minimize costs we still do a titration. If the wvo titrates at greater than 1.4 ml, we use this modification, less we use the simple
Re: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs
Some reassurance please. After months of single stage manufacture and reactor modifications I was about to jump into the Foolproof method. But now Bob in a, I assume well equiped Lab can't get the process to work completely. What Gives? How much chance do I have in a back yard with home made and jerry rigged equipment. Alex Kac also states that mixing methanol and sulphuric acid together is can cause serious problems. Once again what gives? Cheers Ian - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs Appal Energy wrote: Bob, Why not drain the small amount of glycerol that settles out of an esterification? The majority of the sulfuric will come out with it. That lessens the amount of base catalyst needed for the follow-up transesterification. again, this is just what I observed: no glycerin settled out after the acid stage. Waiting 8 hours realistically means another day. Additionally, if I do wait and do get some glycerin to settle out with my conditions, wouldn't you think that methanol also would be part of the cocktail, thence affecting the equilibrium? Fewer chemicals in, fewer problems out. Todd Swearingen bob allen wrote: acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs In my lab I have had little success with the acid/base method for biodiesel production. When my students and I tried to duplicate the foolproof method http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html we invariably obtained incomplete reactions, plus the longer preparation time was less attractive. The following is my modification of that procedure which works for us, and takes less time, but requires more catalyst. Dissolve 1 ml sulfuric acid in 150 ml methanol and add to 1 liter liter dry wvo, heat to about 60 Celsius for one hour. Then dissolve 4.9gm NaOH in 50 ml methanol and add to the reaction mixture. Continue heating for an additional hour, stir for one more hour and then let set for 8 or more hours. workup as usual. Now for the why more catalyst. Basically the sulfuric acid used neutralizes some of the base catalyst, hence more must be add to get back to the desired concentration of catalyst. If you don't know moles and equivalents, the following may be abstruse. 1 ml sulfuric acid is 36 milliequivalents, therefore its presence in the reaction mixture neutralizes 36 milliequivalents of NaOH. The simple base catalyzed method requires 3.5 grams NaOH which is 90 milliequivalents. Subtract 36 from 90 and you get 54 milliequivalents of base left. This corresponds to to only 2.1 grams NaOH active active catalyst, the remainder having been converted to Na(2)SO(4), sodium sulfate. In round numbers then you have to add an additional 1.4 grams of NaOH on top of the 3.5 grams called for in the simple procedure. The following instructions are intended for an advanced audience, thoroughly familiar with the simple procedure. To minimize costs we still do a titration. If the wvo titrates at greater than 1.4 ml, we use this modification, less we use the simple procedure. All this having be said, I actually use KOH in my procedure but have done the calculations with NaOH, it works either way, one just has to adjust the molar proportions. Acknowledgment should be given to Kelly Verbel and Josh Lisko, students who worked with me on this part of our biodiesel project. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.8/215 - Release Date: 27/12/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
[Biofuel] Pumps
If any one in Australia or New Zealand knows where to get a low cost BD suitable pump please let me know. Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] FURTHER TO WASHING MACINE PUMP
After1 batch the pump sprung a terminal leak so I decided to pull it apart only to find out thatit had rubber seals. I then pulled anther pump apart to find "hello" rubber seals. If Alex uses WM pump what brand are they? Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Washing machine pumps
I have just trialed a washing machine pump. It went fine no problems until the following morning when I found it leaking from the main seal. As it didn't leak through until the following day could the BD damage the seals that fast Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] foolproof pump
Thanks Keith Ian - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] foolproof pump In the foolproof recipe a 100w washing machine pump is suggested. Has anyone tried it? Aleks has been using it for years. I have a similar pump 70w and doing 40L batch, is it upto the task? I think Aleks does 30 litres with a 100w pump. Processing times are a variable, though they'll get you in the ballpark. Scaling up from small test-batches to larger batches in a different reactor is not straightforward, it'll probably need tweaking. What size and shape of tank, what sort of pump, and plumbing, or what sort of stirrer motor, what's the exact shape and angle of the stirrer blades and so on - all variables. So you may have to adjust the processing time. But it should work. Best Keith Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.8/165 - Release Date: 9/11/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Start Up Problems
G'day Peter Sounds like water in there somewhere. Check you oil for water. Methanol is a hygroscopic substance and if the tins been left open in humid conditions it to may have water in it? See the JtF site for more info on water in oil. I have seen items on the list about hydrogenated oil ? being difficult to process, you may want to check this out as well. Hope that helps Ian from NZ - Original Message - From: Peter Currie To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 11:01 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Start Up Problems G'day group it is with great embarrassment that l have my first post. For 3 months l have been doing test batches (lost Count how many) and still cannot past shake test. Methanol - From a drag racers 44 gallon drum - best apparently Lye - Tiny pearls 99+ - fresh - then flake Oil - supermarket virgin oil Deep cooker filled with water with thermo (bottling type to 120 deg. C ) Drill stand above 2Lt glass jar tall with narrow neck with screw top lid with hole for paint stirrer Have tried lots of combinations re mixing time (1hr to 2.5 hr) Mixing speed - slow to fast amounts of lye - 2.7g to 4.2g per lt amounts of methanol 200ml to 250ml per lt types of oil - canola , blended edible all say 100% unused After process the product separates nicely and after waiting 12-24 hours do shake test with rain water (all l have) usually it takes hours to separate with a thick layer in-between of white fluffy cloud like stuff (.5 inch thick) The pearl variety of lye dissolves quickly but is hazy whereas the flake is crystal clear. Am heating oil to 55 c then adding methoxide then stirring maint temp throughout. Have read and reread JTF site and archives but nothing leaps out as obvious, my process seems correct, my materials seem correct but l'm starting to feel Very stupid. Is there something on this side of the planet that l'm not aware of?. Also would be very keen to talk - SEE setup working in Melbourne Aust. I'm in the Dandenongs. Any advice would be appreciated, thankyou Regards Peter from Oz ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/129 - Release Date: 11/10/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Cleaning 44 G Drums
Just a couple of questions. How do people clean out their drums given that most of them have engine oil in them when they are obtained. Does it affect the BD. And on the same note, I am going to purchase a 200L drum of Methanol and I am going to break it down into 60 and 20L containers for safety and ease of handling, what is the best way of cleaning them out as the drums i can gethave had motor oil in them. Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pumping WVO from tanks
Try this site it is somewhat like JtF but has a plan for a retrieval pump in it somewhere Cheers Ian http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/appleorchard/ - Original Message - From: Richard U [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pumping WVO from tanks You can get those nice white 5 gallon buckets, with nice tight lids, free from super-markets with bakeries or deli's...ask them or dive into their dumpster. Just leave a few with the restaurant...maybe they can even leave them inside where they stay warm. This way the oil doesn't get mixed up with whatever is in the tank 'out back'. Richard U -Original Message- From: Jason and Katie I read a snip or website (cant remember for sure) where the homebrewer had an agreement with the restaurant and would leave his own barrels at the business and just swap them out with empties when they were full. it seems the easiest solution to me. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/128 - Release Date: 10/10/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] emulsion help thanks Ian
No problems, the biggest batch I can make is 40L which is more than enough for my family. Just as a matter of interest do you have much trouble getting methanol and if you don't mind how much do you pay for it. I am paying NZ$1.60 L. Cheers Ian - Original Message - From: golan michal To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] emulsion help thanks Ian Thanks Ian You right I skipped the washing in the 1 liter batches and I thought its the easy part any way I read a lot about washing and emulsion since then. After all the reading I came to believe that if you have a soap or soapish lair in between BD water you got a problem in the process found mine already it was the temp. In the processor couldn’t keep it steady. Already had a successful 80 liter batch yesterday (the smallest I can in this processor) Thanks again happy New Year Golan - Original Message - From: Ian Theresa Sims To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] emulsion help Hi Golan 2things, 1st read all the JtF site as there are some contradictions such as BD should be clear after processing then in the washing section it says the BD maybe cloudy and need to dry/settle for a couple of days in a sunny place. There is also agood section on emulsions. 2nd do small 1L test batches to sort these sort of problems out before going big. this includes not only changing the chemical ratios but drying the oil and checking the accuracy of you measuring equipment. I have done quite a few test batches before going to 15 then 30 L batches. Have fun Ian - Original Message - From: golan michal To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 6:18 AM Subject: [Biofuel] emulsion help Hay Just joined the biodiesel world and this group as well. I’m from Israel my name is Golan. Just mixed my first 100-liter batch. I use electric pump about 16 liter a minute 2.5 kw heater. I preformed quality test (150 cc water 150 cc biodiesel shaked toghether in ahalf aliter jar)after 24 hours and got 4-5 millimeter white layer In-between the biodiesel and the water. As well the biodiesel wasn’t clear. I reheated the tank again to 52 deg C And mixed it with 10% methanol and 3.5 gram of lye per liter of oil. Mixed it for an hour. Any way I took samples after 20 and 40 min. I saw the biodiesel was darker then in the first mix and an extra very thin layer nylon like appeared on top of the biodiesel . 24 hours later preformed another quality test no spreration at all for aday and ahalf all ready it stays awaitish fluid. does any one knows what that layer is and what is there to do. All the best Golan ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/124 - Release Date: 7/10/2005 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/124 - Release Date: 07/10/2005 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/124 - Release Date: 7/10/2005
Re: [Biofuel] emulsion help
Hi Golan 2things, 1st read all the JtF site as there are some contradictions such as BD should be clear after processing then in the washing section it says the BD maybe cloudy and need to dry/settle for a couple of days in a sunny place. There is also agood section on emulsions. 2nd do small 1L test batches to sort these sort of problems out before going big. this includes not only changing the chemical ratios but drying the oil and checking the accuracy of you measuring equipment. I have done quite a few test batches before going to 15 then 30 L batches. Have fun Ian - Original Message - From: golan michal To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 6:18 AM Subject: [Biofuel] emulsion help Hay Just joined the biodiesel world and this group as well. I’m from Israel my name is Golan. Just mixed my first 100-liter batch. I use electric pump about 16 liter a minute 2.5 kw heater. I preformed quality test (150 cc water 150 cc biodiesel shaked toghether in ahalf aliter jar)after 24 hours and got 4-5 millimeter white layer In-between the biodiesel and the water. As well the biodiesel wasn’t clear. I reheated the tank again to 52 deg C And mixed it with 10% methanol and 3.5 gram of lye per liter of oil. Mixed it for an hour. Any way I took samples after 20 and 40 min. I saw the biodiesel was darker then in the first mix and an extra very thin layer nylon like appeared on top of the biodiesel . 24 hours later preformed another quality test no spreration at all for aday and ahalf all ready it stays awaitish fluid. does any one knows what that layer is and what is there to do. All the best Golan ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/124 - Release Date: 7/10/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] disolving lye
Hi all Most of the recipe's on JtFdescribe hours to dissolved the lye in methanol.Mine usually takes about 20 minute to half an hour. I use translucent bottles and check for settled lye. Is there something I am missing?When I mix it I poor the Lye into the methanol and swirl it for a minute or two , leave it for ten minutes or so,swirl some more until its all gone.The BD I make has clean seperation and is easy to wash. The same goes for either a 1L or30 L batch. Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Filtering?
Hi Sami You can by Fat Filters used in the restaurant trade. they are like coffee filters but bigger. Heat your oil to 35-40C and it will flow easily. Cheers Ian - Original Message - From: Sami Vastela To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 6:26 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Filtering? Hello First test patches burned well in my central heating boiler :-) How important is filtering before prosessing, and what kind of filters you are using? 2 litres test patch went through coffee filter, but it's quite slow. So I'm intereste how to filter 80 litres of WVO? Sami ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.4/109 - Release Date: 21/09/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Deacidification
Hi Folks I have tried the deacidification method with good results in the test batch. However when I heat the oil to process it foams agressivly. I assume this is the water/lye reacting? It leaves a thick layer offat/soap? which i skim off leaving good oil, titration of 1ml instead of 7mls. For want of a betterphrase, is this normal? Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification
Hi Todd I'm using the JTF deacidification as some of the oil I have is Titrating at 7mls plus the 3.5. And no I am not that advanced. Cheers Ian - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 4:10 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification Ian, What are you deacidifying your oil with and how? Adding lye or similar caustic in the absence of methanol is a sure fire way to manufacture soap, just about the last thing you want if your eventual end product is going to be biodiesel. There is a method of making biodiesel where all feedstock is converted to soap, then chemically cracked to 100% FFAs and esterified to yield ~100% biodiesel. But it's doubtful that you have the set up for something that involved at any moderate scale. Todd Swearingen Hi Folks I have tried the deacidification method with good results in the test batch. However when I heat the oil to process it foams agressivly. I assume this is the water/lye reacting? It leaves a thick layer of fat/soap? which i skim off leaving good oil, titration of 1ml instead of 7mls. For want of a better phrase, is this normal? Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/92 - Release Date: 7/09/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification
Hi Keith I have done a 1L test . Fortunatly I re titrated after deacidification and found that the oil had dropped from 7mls to 1ml titration so I added this plus the 3.5. in the 25% methanol, and it came up nice and clear after three washes. Cheers Ian - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Deacidification Hi Ian Hi Folks I have tried the deacidification method with good results in the test batch. However when I heat the oil to process it foams agressivly. I assume this is the water/lye reacting? It leaves a thick layer of fat/soap? which i skim off leaving good oil, titration of 1ml instead of 7mls. For want of a better phrase, is this normal? You probably got some soapstock along with the oil, but it doesn't seem to matter much. Skimming it off is the right thing to do with it. Did you try processing the deacidified oil yet? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#deacid Make your own biodiesel - page 2: Deacidifying WVO Best wishes Keith Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/92 - Release Date: 7/09/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Water in the oil
Could someone clear up my understanding of water in the oil reaction to heat. Somewhere I read that the oil will boil if water is present. Some of the oil I have only makes a poping pinging sound as it is heated,is this the same thing? although diminished it carries on over a 100c even as high as 120c This is a low acid oil 1.8 mls. Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] deacidification
I appreciate your patience Cheers Ian - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] deacidification Hello Ian Hi Keith This is probably the best stuff avalable in my small town, as it is from a food shop renound for quality food. :-) It comes as a surprise to quite a lot of biodieselers when they start titrating restaurant oil and quickly find out which ones really produce quality food. 6ml 0.1% NaOH solution oil is not the product of a quality restaurant, sorry to say. Yes I did mean deacidification as per JTF site. I have 80 litres in 4 drums, I took three samples heated them to test for water There's probably some water in oil like that. The higher the titration level the more difficulty water will cause. and carried out the test three times I even tried different isoprpyl as some of what I had was quite old, but still the same result. I then tested some oil from a friends home frier and found it to be around 3.5grpl, About the upper limit, beyond that novices start having problems. (For his sake rather than yours, I'd suggest you tell your friend to change his oil more often or not to make it so hot.) them a further test on brand new SVO and only 1 drop caused a change to pink? Given that my testing is accurate Probably it's accurate. should I persisit with single stage or try deacidification? The only 2 things that I question of my testing is the 1/1000 mixture was cold, although the test was carried out with the beaker standing in warm water and the phenolphalein was made up with Ethanol? I think it always is. It should be okay as long as it's not old. For the 0.1% NaOH solution, next time pour some into another beaker and stand that in warm water too. Anyway, 6ml titration oil is feasible once you have some experience, there shouldn't be any need to deacidify it. Try deacidifying it if you like, it takes a little practice (gently!), but even if it works it will only have added another variable as an obstacle in your learning curve. I'm sorry, I've lost track - did you start with virgin oil tests? If not, I suggest you go back and do that a few times: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start Then try the 9.5 gm/litre WVO. Do small 1-litre test batches. If you don't succeed, then mix virgin oil with the WVO until you've reduced the titration result to say 2.5 to 3 ml and try that. If you haven't got a blender you could rig one of these or something similar: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html Test-batch mini-processor Or you can use PET bottles - mix the methoxide first, do it this way: Methoxide the easy way http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html#easymeth Pre-heat the oil to 55 deg C (131 deg F), funnel it into the PET bottle, add the methoxide, screw the lid on tightly and shake violently for a minute or so. Then stand it in hot water and maintain the temperature at 55 deg C. Shake it again hard every five minutes, continue for at least an hour, preferably two hours. Please remember that your main goal isn't to process that 80 litres of oil, it's to learn how to make high-quality biodiesel. If you go about it that way you'll get better results with that oil or any oil. Best wishes Keith Your thoughts would be appreciated Cheers Ian Hello Ian Hi Guys I've just tested the WVO I've managed to obtain and tested out at 6grpl this plus 3.5 makes 9.5. Is this a candidate for deacidification? What do you mean by deacidification? Do you mean using an acid-base process instead of a single-stage base process, or do you mean this, or something similar? Deacidifying WVO http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#deacid Deacidification is a standard step in processing raw (new) oils for sale and consumption. The deacidifying process above is basically the same but without the need for a centrifuge. If you mean an acid-base process, any oil is a good candidate for that. Anyway, oil titrating at 6 g/l is probably borderline for a novice attempting his first test batch with WVO. Standard WVO, if there is such a thing, is usually considered as around 3-3.5 titration. Try it if you like but you might struggle. Strictly speaking, it shouldn't be 6grpl but 6 ml of 0.1% NaOH solution, which indeed translates to 9.5 grpl. How did you titrate it? Best wishes Keith Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database:
[Biofuel] deacidification
Hi KeithThis is probably the best stuff avalable in my small town, as it is from a food shop renound for quality food. Yes I did mean deacidification as per JTF site.I have 80 litres in 4 drums, I took three samples heated them to test for water and carried out the test three times I even tried different isoprpyl as some of what I had was quite old, but still the same result. I then tested some oil from a friends home frier and found it to be around 3.5grpl, them a further test on brand new SVO and only 1 drop caused a change to pink?Given that my testing is accurate should I persisit with single stage or try deacidification?The only 2 things that I question of my testing is the 1/1000 mixture was cold, although the test was carried out with the beaker standing in warm water and the phenolphalein was made up with Ethanol?Your thoughts would be appreciatedCheersIan ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [Biofuel] deacidification
Hi Keith This is probably the best stuff avalable in my small town, as it is from a food shop renound for quality food. Yes I did mean deacidification as per JTF site. I have 80 litres in 4 drums, I took three samples heated them to test for water and carried out the test three times I even tried different isoprpyl as some of what I had was quite old, but still the same result. I then tested some oil from a friends home frier and found it to be around 3.5grpl, them a further test on brand new SVO and only 1 drop caused a change to pink? Given that my testing is accurate should I persisit with single stage or try deacidification? The only 2 things that I question of my testing is the 1/1000 mixture was cold, although the test was carried out with the beaker standing in warm water and the phenolphalein was made up with Ethanol? Your thoughts would be appreciated Cheers Ian - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] deacidification Hello Ian Hi Guys I've just tested the WVO I've managed to obtain and tested out at 6grpl this plus 3.5 makes 9.5. Is this a candidate for deacidification? What do you mean by deacidification? Do you mean using an acid-base process instead of a single-stage base process, or do you mean this, or something similar? Deacidifying WVO http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#deacid Deacidification is a standard step in processing raw (new) oils for sale and consumption. The deacidifying process above is basically the same but without the need for a centrifuge. If you mean an acid-base process, any oil is a good candidate for that. Anyway, oil titrating at 6 g/l is probably borderline for a novice attempting his first test batch with WVO. Standard WVO, if there is such a thing, is usually considered as around 3-3.5 titration. Try it if you like but you might struggle. Strictly speaking, it shouldn't be 6grpl but 6 ml of 0.1% NaOH solution, which indeed translates to 9.5 grpl. How did you titrate it? Best wishes Keith Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.12/77 - Release Date: 18/08/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] deacidification
Hi Guys I've just tested the WVO I've managed to obtain and tested out at 6grpl this plus 3.5 makes 9.5. Is this a candidate for deacidification? Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Deacidification
Hi Guys I've just tested the WVO I've managed to obtain and tested out at 6grpl. Is this a candidate for deacidification? Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel
Hi Tom Let me see if I 've got this right. BD made with Animal fat solidifies at a higher temp than WVO? This could be handy info as a lot of the chippies here use lard.FortunatleyI think I've got onto a source of WVO. Diesel prices in NZ are now a $1 pL for your interest Ian - Original Message - From: Tom Irwin To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel Hi Ian and Theresa, Definitely have to agree with Todd here. I´ve been doing a lot of work making BioD from animal fat. It resolidifies at relatively high temperatures. I left 2 liters in a hood in my lab over winter break. They turn off the heat here cause we rarely get freezing temperatures. We have a few days down to about 5 degrees C and some as high as 22. When I returned to the lab it was chilly again and the BioD was a yellowish white solid. With the heat on the last two weeks it´s liquified and looks just like it did originally but I haven´t engine tested it yet to see if it still really is BioD. Tom Irwin From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 19:44:42 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel tell me how long Biodiesel will keep after production.Keep it in an airtight vessel with only enough head space for thermal expansion and contraction and it will be sufficient beyond this time next year. More probably well beyond that. At least long enough for the fallout to settle, a season's worth of rains to soak it in and you to plant another crop so you can do whatever it is that you feel you must do that can't be done without an infernal combustion engine.Spec it to10 microns filtration and be happy. After that, it's not the sediment that will grab you by the short and curlies but the saturated esters (from animal fats and hydrogenated oils. Depending upon the parent stock, your filter could be throttled by "B-100" at temps as high as 40*F.Last time we rendered deer tallow and made biodiesel from it we were stonewalled after an overnight temp of 56*F.Todd SwearingenIan Theresa Sims wrote: Does anyone tell me how long Biodiesel will keep after production. Can someone clarify the final filter process after production. Some say 5 microns some say 10. Mike pelly's recipe dosn't seem to say anything about it? And how long should it stand or can you pour it straight in? Cheers Ian___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/67 - Release Date: 9/08/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Biodiesel
Does anyone tell me how long Biodiesel will keep after production. Can someone clarify the final filter process after production. Some say 5 microns some say 10. Mike pelly's recipe dosn't seem to say anything about it? And how long should it stand or can you pour it straight in? Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol
Thanks Jan Ian - Original Message - From: Jan Warnqvist To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:32 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol Yes, old methanol is always a problem. Both for speedway racers and for biodiesel producers. With best regards Jan WarnqvistAGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89+46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Ian Theresa Sims To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol Thanks Jan But is that a yes or a no on question 1 - Original Message - From: Jan Warnqvist To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol Hello Ian. Answer #1: Methanol attracts water. So, old methanol is not anhydrous, which it has to when producing biodiesel. Answer#2: Yes, but it takes a little longer. Jan WarnqvistAGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89+46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Ian Theresa Sims To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:49 AM Subject: [Biofuel] methanol I was talking toa friend that races cars and he said that methanol kept for a long??time degraded and didn't work as well. Is this a problem for us? As a matter of interest does biodiesel make the sump oil in your car go as black as dinodiesel? Cheers Ian ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.4/66 - Release Date: 9/08/2005 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/67 - Release Date: 9/08/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel
Hi Mike Outside in 20L drums Ian - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 2:44 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel Not long. It's like coffee beans - need to keep turning over yout stock. I have heard - anecdotally - a year under perfect conditions. Less if conditions are bad. How are you storing it? Ian Theresa Sims wrote: Does anyone tell me how long Biodiesel will keep after production. Can someone clarify the final filter process after production. Some say 5 microns some say 10. Mike pelly's recipe dosn't seem to say anything about it? And how long should it stand or can you pour it straight in? Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/67 - Release Date: 9/08/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel
Hi Jan
once again thanks and I will take Your advise re
filter specs.
Ian
- Original Message -
From:
Jan Warnqvist
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 1:31
AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel
Hello Ian,
if treated with anti-oxidizing agents,
and produced from oil with a moderate peroxide number, the biodiesel should be
consumed within three months.
10 microns is a normal filter size for
diesel engines, unless equipped with a common-rail system. So, filtering at 10
microns is good, 5 microns even better assuming that the biodiesel has an
abnormal content of solids which will lead to filter clogging very rapidly.
Pay attention to the markings "absolute" and "nominal" on the filter spec.
There is a huge difference between those two.
The biodiesel should be ready for
instant consumption if it´s clear and bright and without
sediments.
With best regards
Jan WarnqvistAGERATEC AB
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+ 46 554 201 89+46 70 499 38 45
- Original Message -----
From:
Ian
Theresa Sims
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 10:59
AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel
Does anyone tell me how long Biodiesel will
keep after production.
Can someone clarify the final filter process
after production. Some say 5 microns some say 10. Mike pelly's recipe dosn't
seem to say anything about it? And how long should it stand or can you pour
it straight in?
Cheers Ian
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Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel
Thanks Todd I've been reading the deacidifying recipe. Do you consider this a good alternative as it will take out the water with the fats and could it be usable on ?Normal WVO with lower acid contents Cheers Ian - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:44 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel tell me how long Biodiesel will keep after production. Keep it in an airtight vessel with only enough head space for thermal expansion and contraction and it will be sufficient beyond this time next year. More probably well beyond that. At least long enough for the fallout to settle, a season's worth of rains to soak it in and you to plant another crop so you can do whatever it is that you feel you must do that can't be done without an infernal combustion engine. Spec it to10 microns filtration and be happy. After that, it's not the sediment that will grab you by the short and curlies but the saturated esters (from animal fats and hydrogenated oils. Depending upon the parent stock, your filter could be throttled by B-100 at temps as high as 40*F. Last time we rendered deer tallow and made biodiesel from it we were stonewalled after an overnight temp of 56*F. Todd Swearingen Ian Theresa Sims wrote: Does anyone tell me how long Biodiesel will keep after production. Can someone clarify the final filter process after production. Some say 5 microns some say 10. Mike pelly's recipe dosn't seem to say anything about it? And how long should it stand or can you pour it straight in? Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/67 - Release Date: 9/08/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] methanol
I was talking toa friend that races cars and he said that methanol kept for a long??time degraded and didn't work as well. Is this a problem for us? As a matter of interest does biodiesel make the sump oil in your car go as black as dinodiesel? Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol
Thanks Jan But is that a yes or a no on question 1 - Original Message - From: Jan Warnqvist To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol Hello Ian. Answer #1: Methanol attracts water. So, old methanol is not anhydrous, which it has to when producing biodiesel. Answer#2: Yes, but it takes a little longer. Jan WarnqvistAGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89+46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Ian Theresa Sims To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:49 AM Subject: [Biofuel] methanol I was talking toa friend that races cars and he said that methanol kept for a long??time degraded and didn't work as well. Is this a problem for us? As a matter of interest does biodiesel make the sump oil in your car go as black as dinodiesel? Cheers Ian ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.4/66 - Release Date: 9/08/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pressure release
Hi Todd I thought this might be the case , seeing reactors made with silicon seals and clamped lids is going to be a recipe for pressure build up once heat is applied. Last thing you want is a jet of methanol escaping from around the mixer shaft. I am still having trouble getting methanol cheap enough but another writer has given me some fresh ideas. Cheers Ian - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 1:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pressure release You're welcome Ian, But I guess I should have qualified that couple of pounds pressure statement. It's solely dependant upon reaction temperature not exceeding approximately 120*F. Those who use hot water heaters as reactors may be running at higher temperatures. If they exceed 145-150*F then they're operating more of a reflux (boil) reactor rather than all the mixing being done by a pump. That would all depend on how the thermostat is set. The factory thermostats are generally one time shut-offs that become unusable should the temp ever reach a specific high point. Older units shut down at 180*. Newer older units at ~160*. Spanking new units may be even lower. In any event, a closed reflux reactor would have far higher pressures. You could place an air cooled condensor on top of the reactor. That could be something as simple as a 10' long x 1/2 diameter copper tube with an open top. We've done this with a piece of scrap from a commercial cooling tower. It had hundreds of aluminum fins attached to it for heat dissipation. In such a setup, the methanol will boil and thoroughly mix the contents, but as the vapors travel up the tube they cool and fall back into the reactor. Measuring the temp at different heights of the condensor will permit you to calibrate the reflux temp so no vapors escape. Todd Swearingen Ian Theresa Sims wrote: Hi Todd Thanks for that I appreciate your advise. Ian - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pressure release How are the tanks vented? Any tank holding any percentage of methanol should have a vapor line running to a central manifold prior to passing through a condensor. The greatest pressure build-up occurs during the first moments of reaction. Rather than a pressure relief valve that could easily fail, an adjustable pressure flap can be constructed that opens at low pressure. If the vent lines are 2-4, there's not much chance of the pressure building beyond a couple of pounds. As for a sealed system? There are two options. Either size and construct all parts of the system that will be in the methanol loop (tanks, transfer lines, pumps vents, etc.) to withstand negative pressure, or simple make sure that any new feedstock and reactants that enter do so at a speed consistant with the condensor's capacity, allowing all exiting vapor to be stripped of methanol. Sizing a condensor would be a less taxing exercise than constructin an entire system for negative pressure.Over size the condensor and the reactants can be fed faster. Under size it and they simply have to enter at a slower rate. Todd Swearingen Ian Theresa Sims wrote: I am new to the biofuel world and have read most of the webb site info but can't seem to find any reference to pressure release. They all talk of having a sealed system to prevent personal harm and methanol loss but pressure must build with A, heating and B, pumping air in to mix the solution. Question. How are the tanks vented? Many thanks Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 28/07/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
Re: [Biofuel] Pressure release
Hi Keith youve been a great help Many thanks Ian - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pressure release Hello Ian, welcome I am new to the biofuel world and have read most of the webb site info but can't seem to find any reference to pressure release. They all talk of having a sealed system Closed is better. Even the sealed systems (hot water tanks mostly) have pressure outlets and can withstand some pressure. to prevent personal harm and methanol loss but pressure must build with A, heating and B, pumping air in to mix the solution. Pumping air in? I don't think so. Question. How are the tanks vented? Have a good read about these two processors, it'll help: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor8.html Biodiesel processors: The Deepthort 100B http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor10.html Journey to Forever 90-litre processor Best wishes Keith Many thanks Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 27/07/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pressure release
Hi Todd Thanks for that I appreciate your advise. Ian - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pressure release How are the tanks vented? Any tank holding any percentage of methanol should have a vapor line running to a central manifold prior to passing through a condensor. The greatest pressure build-up occurs during the first moments of reaction. Rather than a pressure relief valve that could easily fail, an adjustable pressure flap can be constructed that opens at low pressure. If the vent lines are 2-4, there's not much chance of the pressure building beyond a couple of pounds. As for a sealed system? There are two options. Either size and construct all parts of the system that will be in the methanol loop (tanks, transfer lines, pumps vents, etc.) to withstand negative pressure, or simple make sure that any new feedstock and reactants that enter do so at a speed consistant with the condensor's capacity, allowing all exiting vapor to be stripped of methanol. Sizing a condensor would be a less taxing exercise than constructin an entire system for negative pressure.Over size the condensor and the reactants can be fed faster. Under size it and they simply have to enter at a slower rate. Todd Swearingen Ian Theresa Sims wrote: I am new to the biofuel world and have read most of the webb site info but can't seem to find any reference to pressure release. They all talk of having a sealed system to prevent personal harm and methanol loss but pressure must build with A, heating and B, pumping air in to mix the solution. Question. How are the tanks vented? Many thanks Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.7/60 - Release Date: 28/07/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Pressure release
I am new to the biofuel world andhave read most of the webb site info but can't seem to find any reference to pressure release. They all talk of having a sealed system to prevent personal harm and methanol loss but pressure must build with A, heating and B, pumping air in to mix the solution. Question. How are the tanks vented? Many thanks Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
