Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
"It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one." Yes, It looks that way, doesn't it? So, I will explain. Usually, I try not to generalize because it leaves out a lot of information and can be manipulated to align itself with a particularagenda. However, on those occasions when I say "Americans" (my apologies to Canadians and others living on this hemisphere) or US citizens in general, I'm pointing toward a trend. The references I give below, are what I use to at least partly back up my position on those trends. Now, although theargument I give is my own, Ifind others who agree (some of them are my neighbors). "...I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right reasons..." The fact that there are soldiers who are duty bound and fighting honorably in a war is not the reason for the arrival ofoneto three hundred thousand protesters in Washington DC on September 24th. Itis the horribly convoluted reason for war whichisso disturbing. "All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better." The US as a whole is showing symptoms of fascism. If I, as you say, "group all Americans as one", please prove me wrong and resist the simpleperception of our culture whichhides our dark little secrets and makes hypocrites out of our government each time they go to preach democracy to another sovereign nation. Our government needs to "play nice with others" and work toward being a participant in a World community instead offurther construction of it's empire. Mike Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You get not too much of an argument from me but. It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one. I also have more than one citizenship. But I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right reasons, when I came to America many years ago it was the envy of the world. And I feel it still would be. If not for the government and corporate B.S. It disgusts me, but I donât include myself as part of that. All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better. If not for me but maybe my kids and grand kids. Not that I think it will ever be as it was. But surly it could stand just a tad of improvement. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael RedlerSent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:35 AMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith! OK, you have my attention. Derick wrote: "Not all Americans are lazy stupid or helpless." As an American, I'd like to think that this is true. In fact, I don't thinkthat Americans aremore lazy than any other country or culture. Despite being the most obese country in the world, we find ourselves in the workplace at least as many hours as any other country in the world. Joe wrote: "This explains the typical american arrogance that drips from his rhetoric and which irritates you so well." There are expectations by Americans that other countries and cultures recognize us as somehow superior. If anyone doubts this, here is a little experiment: Take comments so commonlyheard in political speeches as well as at backyard barbecues (i.e. "We are the greatest country in the world") and apply it to Germany (for example). In fact, when an Americanpresident (especially our current president) makes a speech and it's translated into German and"The United States" is replaced with "Germany", I would argue that manyAmericans would be shocked thatANYhead of state would make such a speech. This is the American double standard which I like to call a kind of pseudo-mutuality since t! here are still a few countries who arepolitically and culturally aligned with this image. There issomething terribly wrong with our culture and it's just outside the view of most citizens. CallingAmericans"lazy" though, isinaccurate andminimizesour long list of troubles. This is what I mean by "list". You try to connect the dots. 1.) "We" have more homicides in our major cities than casualties inwar (irrespective of the circumstancesin that war). 2.) "We" have abizarre view of leadership and fairness by virtue of the fact that thepresident (irrespective of which president) is pledged allegiance even when he (not "she" -yet) takes action which adversely effects the majority of citizens. At the same time, Americans are knownfor supporting the "underdog" and down trodden - almost as if to perpetuate and preserve this demographic. 3.) "We" struggle to have a standard of K-12 education that matches that of other developed countries while placing huge emphasis on "faith" and mixed interpretations of morality. 4.) Half of the citizens in the United States do not support a document which prevented dictatorships and provided the means for citizens to prosper
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
Sometimes I wonder if the rest of the world understands that all americans don't support GW and his policies though... After all, we claim to be a democracy, so therefore, shouldn't the government by nature reflect the will of it's people. In reality, only my congressional representative actualy represents me, but neither of my senators does, nor my president or vice president. I actually voted, but I effectively have almost no vote in our government. Our system is set up for rule by a very narrow majority with no effective minority voice. But if you listen to our rhetoric abroad, it's easy to forget this. Zeke On 10/26/05, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one. Yes, It looks that way, doesn't it? So, I will explain. Usually, I try not to generalize because it leaves out a lot of information and can be manipulated to align itself with a particular agenda. However, on those occasions when I say Americans (my apologies to Canadians and others living on this hemisphere) or US citizens in general, I'm pointing toward a trend. The references I give below, are what I use to at least partly back up my position on those trends. Now, although the argument I give is my own, I find others who agree (some of them are my neighbors). ...I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right reasons... The fact that there are soldiers who are duty bound and fighting honorably in a war is not the reason for the arrival of one to three hundred thousand protesters in Washington DC on September 24th. It is the horribly convoluted reason for war which is so disturbing. All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better. The US as a whole is showing symptoms of fascism. If I, as you say, group all Americans as one, please prove me wrong and resist the simple perception of our culture which hides our dark little secrets and makes hypocrites out of our government each time they go to preach democracy to another sovereign nation. Our government needs to play nice with others and work toward being a participant in a World community instead of further construction of it's empire. Mike Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You get not too much of an argument from me but. It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one. I also have more than one citizenship. But I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right reasons, when I came to America many years ago it was the envy of the world. And I feel it still would be. If not for the government and corporate B.S. It disgusts me, but I don't include myself as part of that. All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better. If not for me but maybe my kids and grand kids. Not that I think it will ever be as it was. But surly it could stand just a tad of improvement. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Redler Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:35 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith! OK, you have my attention. Derick wrote: Not all Americans are lazy stupid or helpless. As an American, I'd like to think that this is true. In fact, I don't think that Americans are more lazy than any other country or culture. Despite being the most obese country in the world, we find ourselves in the workplace at least as many hours as any other country in the world. Joe wrote: This explains the typical american arrogance that drips from his rhetoric and which irritates you so well. There are expectations by Americans that other countries and cultures recognize us as somehow superior. If anyone doubts this, here is a little experiment: Take comments so commonly heard in political speeches as well as at backyard barbecues (i.e. We are the greatest country in the world) and apply it to Germany (for example). In fact, when an American president (especially our current president) makes a speech and it's translated into German and The United States is replaced with Germany, I would argue that many Americans would be shocked that ANY head of state would make such a speech. This is the American double standard which I like to call a kind of pseudo-mutuality since there are still a few countries who are politically and culturally aligned with this image. There is something terribly wrong with our culture and it's just outside the view of most citizens. Calling Americans lazy though, is inaccurate and minimizes our long list of troubles. This is what I mean by list. You try to connect the dots. 1.) We have more homicides in our major cities than casualties in war (irrespective of the circumstances in that war). 2.) We have a bizarre view of leadership and fairness by virtue of the fact that the president
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
Amen Mike, Amen. And please don't appologise to Canadians when you use the term American because we ARE american in both senses of that word for all intents and purposes. I was shocked and amazed when Jean Cretien (our former prime minister) decided to go with the voice of sanity and not back the US in its illegal war but asside from that and a few noises once in a while we basically toe the line and do as we are told. Just this week Condoleeza Rice told us to settle down over the softwood thing. Yeah we will Condi. It's only 5 billion dollars. Play nice eh? LOL Joe Michael Redler wrote: The US as a whole is showing symptoms of fascism. If I, as you say, "group all Americans as one", please prove me wrong and resist the simpleperception of our culture whichhides our dark little secrets and makes hypocrites out of our government each time they go to preach democracy to another sovereign nation. Our government needs to "play nice with others" and work toward being a participant in a World community instead offurther construction of it's empire. Mike Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You get not too much of an argument from me but. It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one. I also have more than one citizenship. But I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right reasons, when I came to America many years ago it was the envy of the world. And I feel it still would be. If not for the government and corporate B.S. It disgusts me, but I dont include myself as part of that. All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better. If not for me but maybe my kids and grand kids. Not that I think it will ever be as it was. But surly it could stand just a tad of improvement. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Michael Redler Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:35 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith! OK, you have my attention. Derick wrote: "Not all Americans are lazy stupid or helpless." As an American, I'd like to think that this is true. In fact, I don't thinkthat Americans aremore lazy than any other country or culture. Despite being the most obese country in the world, we find ourselves in the workplace at least as many hours as any other country in the world. Joe wrote: "This explains the typical american arrogance that drips from his rhetoric and which irritates you so well." There are expectations by Americans that other countries and cultures recognize us as somehow superior. If anyone doubts this, here is a little experiment: Take comments so commonlyheard in political speeches as well as at backyard barbecues (i.e. "We are the greatest country in the world") and apply it to Germany (for example). In fact, when an Americanpresident (especially our current president) makes a speech and it's translated into German and"The United States" is replaced with "Germany", I would argue that manyAmericans would be shocked thatANYhead of state would make such a speech. This is the American double standard which I like to call a kind of pseudo-mutuality since there are still a few countries who arepolitically and culturally aligned with this image. There issomething terribly wrong with our culture and it's just outside the view of most citizens. CallingAmericans"lazy" though, isinaccurate andminimizesour long list of troubles. This is what I mean by "list". You try to connect the dots. 1.) "We" have more homicides in our major cities than casualties inwar (irrespective of the circumstancesin that war). 2.) "We" have abizarre view of leadership and fairness by virtue of the fact that thepresident (irrespective of which president) is pledged allegiance even when he (not "she" -yet) takes action which adversely effects the majority of citizens. At the same time, Americans are knownfor supporting the "underdog" and down trodden - almost as if to perpetuate and preserve this demographic. 3.) "We" struggle to have a standard of K-12 education that matches that of other developed countries while placing huge emphasis on "faith" and mixed interpretations of morality. 4.) Half of the citizens in the United States do not support a document which prevented dictatorships and provided the means for citizens to prosper for the last two and a half centuries. At the same time, the same proportion of citizens don't show up t
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
civil towards each other. I like to think we're here in the spirit of motivating change and education, goodwill and a drive to fix some things that are wrong with the world. Why be enemies if your fighting the same fight? Seems counterproductive.On 10/25/05, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's seesince your message originated from sbcglobal.net and you don't know how to spell ridiculous, I'll go out on a limb here and speculate that you are a fellow American. Sorry if I hit a nerve but maybe you should take a look around. Since I am also American ( BTW America refers to a couple of continents - not a country as is the typical brash assumption of many US citizens) and when I refer to American 'culture', I am referring to the US and it's subsidiary Canada, I can do so without being accused of foreign bias (even though we are all foreigners here who took over these lands from the native people who were here first). We will leave Mexico out of the discussion even though it is part of North America, due to the fact that it is only important as our remote slave labour state. I wasn't referring to all Americans, I was referring to Brian, but the validity of my statement in general terms still stands. That is the problem with generalizations, there are always a few exceptions. I wish there were more. I don't know what Arabs, French and Russians have to do with anything but on the subject of terrorism, perhaps you should educate yourself as to what your own government, and the corporations who control it, is up to in the world if indeed my assumption as to your origin is correct. Check out Noam Chomsky's Power and Terror for a clue (it is available in video form so you don't have to be able to read something lengthy with complicated sentence structure). Joe ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
You get not too much of an argument from me but. It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one. I also have more than one citizenship. But I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right reasons, when I came to America many years ago it was the envy of the world. And I feel it still would be. If not for the government and corporate B.S. It disgusts me, but I dont include myself as part of that. All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better. If not for me but maybe my kids and grand kids. Not that I think it will ever be as it was. But surly it could stand just a tad of improvement. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Redler Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:35 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith! OK, you have my attention. Derick wrote: Not all Americans are lazy stupid or helpless. As an American, I'd like to think that this is true. In fact, I don't thinkthat Americans aremore lazy than any other country or culture. Despite being the most obese country in the world, we find ourselves in the workplace at least as many hours as any other country in the world. Joe wrote: This explains the typical american arrogance that drips from his rhetoric and which irritates you so well. There are expectations by Americans that other countries and cultures recognize us as somehow superior. If anyone doubts this, here is a little experiment: Take comments so commonlyheard in political speeches as well as at backyard barbecues (i.e. We are the greatest country in the world) and apply it to Germany (for example). In fact, when an Americanpresident (especially our current president) makes a speech and it's translated into German andThe United States is replaced with Germany, I would argue that manyAmericans would be shocked thatANYhead of state would make such a speech. This is the American double standard which I like to call a kind of pseudo-mutuality since there are still a few countries who arepolitically and culturally aligned with this image. There issomething terribly wrong with our culture and it's just outside the view of most citizens. CallingAmericanslazy though, isinaccurate andminimizesour long list of troubles. This is what I mean by list. You try to connect the dots. 1.) We have more homicides in our major cities than casualties inwar (irrespective of the circumstancesin that war). 2.) We have abizarre view of leadership and fairness by virtue of the fact that thepresident (irrespective of which president) is pledged allegiance even when he (not she -yet) takes action which adversely effects the majority of citizens. At the same time, Americans are knownfor supporting the underdog and down trodden - almost as if to perpetuate and preserve this demographic. 3.) We struggle to have a standard of K-12 education that matches that of other developed countries while placing huge emphasis on faith and mixed interpretations of morality. 4.) Half of the citizens in the United States do not support a document which prevented dictatorships and provided the means for citizens to prosper for the last two and a half centuries. At the same time, the same proportion of citizens don't show up to vote for (arguably) the most powerful political position in the free world. http://www.radessays.com/viewpaper.php?nats=MTAxMToyOjErequest=38800 http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a397df8d00620.htm 5.) Despite being a republic,the US government has taken it upon itself to preach democracy to other countries - countries with better representation of their citizens through coalition governments, better voter turnout and more opportunities for referendums. 6.) We have a so called free press which either hides or glorifies the last five points according to a political agenda, making Americans believe that journalism here is as comprehensive as that in otherdeveloped countries. ...and the list goes on. One last note: I have a dual citizenship which allows me to permanently move out of the country. However, my other list of things that I love about my country (having nothing to do with government or politics) keeps me here. I prefer to stay and be one of many voices of dissent. Mike Other References: http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheism9.htm http://gozips.uakron.edu/~david27/flm/chap9.htm http://www.accd.edu/pac/humaniti/colby/L19.htm Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is about the most ridicules statement I have seen in some time. Not all Americans are lazy stupid or helpless. Why dont you say all Arabs are terrorists? All the French smell all Russians are drunks except? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
Ahhh! More stories of the rich rampaging through the countryside, throwing axes and torches in hand, burning down the huts of the poor. Curse those barbarians! If only we could do something about it! But alas, we only make up 99% of the population. Big Smile, Tom Irwin From: Kenji James Fuse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:59:52 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!Don't forget all the stupid and lazy Canadians up here. We've managed tovote in a provinicial neo-con guv'ment up in british Columbia which can gohead to head with yours, selling off public utilities and ripping upworkers contracts faster than you can say "our premier was busted fordrunk driving in the USA".And that's just following the overall trend in Canada towards an agenda ofprivatization, corporate back-bending and 'harmonization' 'twixt the USand Kanada.Back when I offensively asked about a centralized co-op type affair forbiodiesel producers, part of the goal was to fight public corporations. Asfar as I can tell, most turmoil comes from the fact that the big companiesmust continually increase their profits on a quarterly basis, which isjust not achievable anymore unless they resort to drastic measures.The upcoming battle to destroy the stock market may be initiated andcompleted by the success of alternative corporations which take the careto create articles of incorporation which strategically take into accounthuman greed (wage caps) and endeavour to make airtight clauses to disallowcompany sale, and prohibition to going public.Whether this argument is misguided or not remains to be seen. Anyways, Ienjoy good arguments (already had some) so I await responses!KF___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
War. Jeez, where IS Osama Bin Laden? I did not protest that decision. In fact, I think we owe the Afganis a country. Iraq: Has this been a UN action with the neighboring Arab countries supporting it, I would have also. This is when I believed that Saddam had WMD. Knowing that this was not true, I would NOT have supported invasion. I would have supported the UN and the world squeezing him on his civil rights, just like we're doing in Burma and oh, never mind. Derick Giorchino wrote: You get not too much of an argument from me but. It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one. I also have more than one citizenship. But I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right reasons, when I came to America many years ago it was the envy of the world. And I feel it still would be. If not for the government and corporate B.S. It disgusts me, but I don’t include myself as part of that. All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better. If not for me but maybe my kids and grand kids. Not that I think it will ever be as it was. But surly it could stand just a tad of improvement. *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Michael Redler *Sent:* Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:35 AM *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith! OK, you have my attention. Derick wrote: Not all Americans are lazy stupid or helpless. As an American, I'd like to think that this is true. In fact, I don't think that Americans are more lazy than any other country or culture. Despite being the most obese country in the world, we find ourselves in the workplace at least as many hours as any other country in the world. Joe wrote: This explains the typical american arrogance that drips from his rhetoric and which irritates you so well. There are expectations by Americans that other countries and cultures recognize us as somehow superior. If anyone doubts this, here is a little experiment: Take comments so commonly heard in political speeches as well as at backyard barbecues (i.e. We are the greatest country in the world) and apply it to Germany (for example). In fact, when an American president (especially our current president) makes a speech and it's translated into German and The United States is replaced with Germany, I would argue that many Americans would be shocked that ANY head of state would make such a speech. This is the American double standard which I like to call a kind of pseudo-mutuality since there are still a few countries who are politically and culturally aligned with this image. There is something terribly wrong with our culture and it's just outside the view of most citizens. Calling Americans lazy though, is inaccurate and minimizes our long list of troubles. This is what I mean by list. You try to connect the dots. 1.) We have more homicides in our major cities than casualties in war (irrespective of the circumstances in that war). 2.) We have a bizarre view of leadership and fairness by virtue of the fact that the president (irrespective of which president) is pledged allegiance even when he (not she -yet) takes action which adversely effects the majority of citizens. At the same time, Americans are known for supporting the underdog and down trodden - almost as if to perpetuate and preserve this demographic. 3.) We struggle to have a standard of K-12 education that matches that of other developed countries while placing huge emphasis on faith and mixed interpretations of morality. 4.) Half of the citizens in the United States do not support a document which prevented dictatorships and provided the means for citizens to prosper for the last two and a half centuries. At the same time, the same proportion of citizens don't show up to vote for (arguably) the most powerful political position in the free world. http://www.radessays.com/viewpaper.php?nats=MTAxMToyOjErequest=38800 http://www.radessays.com/viewpaper.php?nats=MTAxMToyOjErequest=38800 http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a397df8d00620.htm 5.) Despite being a republic, the US government has taken it upon itself to preach democracy to other countries - countries with better representation of their citizens through coalition governments, better voter turnout and more opportunities for referendums. 6.) We have a so called free press which either hides or glorifies the last five points according to a political agenda, making Americans believe that journalism here is as comprehensive as that in other developed countries. ...and the list goes on. One last note: I have a dual citizenship which allows me to permanently move out
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
Well Evergreen; You are the first to suggest anything about being enemies. I certainly wasn't seeing it that way. I am just trying to be forthright about the way that I see things. It is my opinion of course, based on observation. This discussion started about why it is that some folks seem to find difficulty with following some rather clear and simple instructions on J2F and ended up with some very defensive statements whch is regrettable, but let's not lose site of the fact that my comments were generalizations about my own society. The sad fact that my society is declining into a decadent shadow of what it could be has a lot to do with the way it is organized and the lazy self serving attitudes that are promoted every day and swallowed wholesale by far too many. My reluctance to censor my views about these issues does not necessarily constitute an attack unless you choose to see it that way, which is not surprising since the alternative does not afford one the easy way out. Then again, the expectation that the easy way is the preferred path was kinda central to my original comments. Joe Evergreen Solutions wrote: Eep. I enjoy a heated debate, but I wish you guys were a little more civil towards each other. I like to think we're here in the spirit of motivating change and education, goodwill and a drive to fix some things that are wrong with the world. Why be enemies if your fighting the same fight? Seems counterproductive. On 10/25/05, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's seesince your message originated from sbcglobal.net and you don't know how to spell ridiculous, I'll go out on a limb here and speculate that you are a fellow American. Sorry if I hit a nerve but maybe you should take a look around. Since I am also American ( BTW America refers to a couple of continents - not a country as is the typical brash assumption of many US citizens) and when I refer to American 'culture', I am referring to the US and it's subsidiary Canada, I can do so without being accused of foreign bias (even though we are all foreigners here who took over these lands from the native people who were here first). We will leave Mexico out of the discussion even though it is part of North America, due to the fact that it is only important as our remote slave labour state. I wasn't referring to all Americans, I was referring to Brian, but the validity of my statement in general terms still stands. That is the problem with generalizations, there are always a few exceptions. I wish there were more. I don't know what Arabs, French and Russians have to do with anything but on the subject of terrorism, perhaps you should educate yourself as to what your own government, and the corporations who control it, is up to in the world if indeed my assumption as to your origin is correct. Check out Noam Chomsky's Power and Terror for a clue (it is available in video form so you don't have to be able to read something lengthy with complicated sentence structure). Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
No, but a lot are. I live here. I can look out the window. As for the Arab/terrorist remark, what does that have to do with this thread? Let's keep the tone positive: All Frenchmen know good cheese. All Russians read great literature. Derick Giorchino wrote: That is about the most ridicules statement I have seen in some time. Not all Americans are lazy stupid or helpless. Why dont you say all Arabs are terrorists? All the French smell all Russians are drunks except? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Joe Street Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:26 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith! Whoa Big Feller Keith please don't forget Brian is an American, therefore he was born and raised to believe he is somehow special, and spoiled enough to expect everything to be paint by numbers. American 'culture' is all about instant gratification, less work vs more satisfaction/entertainment. This explains the typical american arrogance that drips from his rhetoric and which irritates you so well. I have no doubt that Brian is genuinely frustrated by his apparent lack of progress in this early stage but it is not really HIS fault, he has been conditioned with a set of expectations which do not fit the real world. This is why our insidious Disneyland 'culture' here in the Americas (well at least Canada and US) works so well because it has had the illusion of being sustainable for so long. I see this kind of attitude all the time with university students. Even graduate students who are getting on in years; they like someone to lead them by the hand. We are a spoon fed continent. We like to have everything easy. Easy information, easy entertainment, easily achievable goals, easy to throw away (insert everything you don't like), and yes even easy sex (we have a pill to help that). Well, it aint always easy. Except for the sex part (speaking personally that is). ;-) The point about the site that is important is that it works for many many people. If there is one overriding principle it is make sure you are understanding very clearly what you are about to do before you start. If you don't know what %(w/v) means then you should not proceed. In fact your exact next step at that point is, go find out what %(w/v) means before you go any further. Do not assume. Do not skip over. Go find out. The fact that americans have this moronic attention span means that it is very difficult for us to take the time to just go and do this stuff methodically. We cannot concentrate long enough to read a web page. We see the fuel as miles rolling by our windscreen before the oil is even reacted. Carrot on a stick mentality. This is what the rulers of our society have created. Feel free to throw your television out the window if any of this bothers anyone! I guess it is hard for people in other parts of the world to know this about our infantile collective on this big island in the sea. Take pity you cruel task master, we are but children emerging from the playground into a world of harsh reality. Joe Keith Addison wrote: LOL Brian!!! Actually it's not funny. It's just inept, and it sows confusion - extracting such clouds of complexitites out of such simplicities is not exactly going to encourage newbies, though that's apparently what you're trying to do. Now it requires explanations of things which need no explanations, which always makes them appear more complex than they are, very encouraging for newbies, yes. Sigh... I say this because I'd rather not have people telling me I am not tip-top with my labwork. Tired is all. And I'm finally getting just a little tired of your saying our website doesn't work properly when it's quite obviously you who doesn't work properly. How come, for starters, you're starting with WVO and not virgin oil? How come lots of things. First of all, in order to re-establish the whereabouts of our feet somewhere near the surface of Planet Earth once again, see: Basic titration http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#titrate snip With readings of that which we could expect, we then moved on to basic titration. If you all will bear with me a moment, I do have some questions. I will intertwine my questions right into the JtF web site directions for basic titration. Our hope is to clarify these directions for ourselves and for other newbies as well. We believe that there are several statements found here and in the email list which are contradictory at best. Uh-huh. "Basic titration An electronic pH meter is
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
local mass transit system (formerly a great system turned into a joke by our state and local representation.) Now everyone drives, no one walks and riding a bike here is a life threatening experience. and... I did encounter two smelly French guys at a local music store. They did smell bad but had great taste in music. They were viewing the new release of the Thelonious Monk Quartet Live at Carnegie Hall (a *GREAT* recording!) I did not have the opportunity to ask them about cheese. also... I have several Arab friends who would say that it is the US Government that is acting as the terrorist. Racism not withstanding, they feel the effects of this on a weekly basis. But I digress... I was able to follow the instructions on the JTF website without too much difficulty. Because of a learning disability I was required to read and re-read it several times. However, it did not cause me any distress or confusion. I have made several batches of biodiesel large and small, constructed 2 reactors and have loved every second of success and failure. There was never a moment that I had to ask Keith to re-write any portion of the instructions. fred On 10/25/05, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, but a lot are. I live here. I can look out the window. As for the Arab/terrorist remark, what does that have to do with this thread? Let's keep the tone positive: All Frenchmen know good cheese. All Russians read great literature. Derick Giorchino wrote: That is about the most ridicules statement I have seen in some time. Not all Americans are lazy stupid or helpless. Why don't you say all Arabs are terrorists? All the French smell all Russians are drunks except? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Joe Street Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:26 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith! Whoa Big Feller Keith please don't forget Brian is an American, therefore he was born and raised to believe he is somehow special, and spoiled enough to expect everything to be paint by numbers. American 'culture' is all about instant gratification, less work vs more satisfaction/entertainment. This explains the typical american arrogance that drips from his rhetoric and which irritates you so well. I have no doubt that Brian is genuinely frustrated by his apparent lack of progress in this early stage but it is not really HIS fault, he has been conditioned with a set of expectations which do not fit the real world. This is why our insidious Disneyland 'culture' here in the Americas (well at least Canada and US) works so well because it has had the illusion of being sustainable for so long. I see this kind of attitude all the time with university students. Even graduate students who are getting on in years; they like someone to lead them by the hand. We are a spoon fed continent. We like to have everything easy. Easy information, easy entertainment, easily achievable goals, easy to throw away (insert everything you don't like), and yes even easy sex (we have a pill to help that). Well, it aint always easy. Except for the sex part (speaking personally that is). ;-) The point about the site that is important is that it works for many many people. If there is one overriding principle it is make sure you are understanding very clearly what you are about to do before you start. If you don't know what %(w/v) means then you should not proceed. In fact your exact next step at that point is, go find out what %(w/v) means before you go any further. Do not assume. Do not skip over. Go find out. The fact that americans have this moronic attention span means that it is very difficult for us to take the time to just go and do this stuff methodically. We cannot concentrate long enough to read a web page. We see the fuel as miles rolling by our windscreen before the oil is even reacted. Carrot on a stick mentality. This is what the rulers of our society have created. Feel free to throw your television out the window if any of this bothers anyone! I guess it is hard for people in other parts of the world to know this about our infantile collective on this big island in the sea. Take pity you cruel task master, we are but children emerging from the playground into a world of harsh reality. Joe Keith Addison wrote: LOL Brian!!! Actually it's not funny. It's just inept, and it sows confusion - extracting such clouds of complexitites out of such simplicities is not exactly going to encourage newbies, though that's apparently what you're trying to do. Now it requires explanations of things which need no explanations, which always makes them appear more complex than they are, very encouraging for newbies, yes. Sigh... I say this because I'd rather not have people telling me I am not tip-top with my
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
OK, you have my attention. Derick wrote: "Not all Americans are lazy stupid or helpless." As an American, I'd like to think that this is true. In fact, I don't thinkthat Americans aremore lazy than any other country or culture. Despite being the most obese country in the world, we find ourselves in the workplace at least as many hours as any other country in the world. Joe wrote: "This explains the typical american arrogance that drips from his rhetoric and which irritates you so well." There are expectations by Americans that other countries and cultures recognize us as somehow superior. If anyone doubts this, here is a little experiment: Take comments so commonlyheard in political speeches as well as at backyard barbecues (i.e. "We are the greatest country in the world") and apply it to Germany (for example). In fact, when an Americanpresident (especially our current president) makes a speech and it's translated into German and"The United States" is replaced with "Germany", I would argue that manyAmericans would be shocked thatANYhead of state would make such a speech. This is the American double standard which I like to call a kind of pseudo-mutuality since there are still a few countries who arepolitically and culturally aligned with this image. There issomething terribly wrong with our culture and it's just outside the view of most citizens. CallingAmericans"lazy" though, isinaccurate andminimizesour long list of troubles. This is what I mean by "list". You try to connect the dots. 1.) "We" have more homicides in our major cities than casualties inwar (irrespective of the circumstancesin that war). 2.) "We" have abizarre view of leadership and fairness by virtue of the fact that thepresident (irrespective of which president) is pledged allegiance even when he (not "she" -yet) takes action which adversely effects the majority of citizens. At the same time, Americans are knownfor supporting the "underdog" and down trodden - almost as if to perpetuate and preserve this demographic. 3.) "We" struggle to have a standard of K-12 education that matches that of other developed countries while placing huge emphasis on "faith" and mixed interpretations of morality. 4.) Half of the citizens in the United States do not support a document which prevented dictatorships and provided the means for citizens to prosper for the last two and a half centuries. At the same time, the same proportion of citizens don't show up to vote for (arguably) the most powerful political position in the free world. http://www.radessays.com/viewpaper.php?nats=MTAxMToyOjErequest=38800 http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a397df8d00620.htm 5.) Despite being a republic,the US government has taken it upon itself to preach democracy to other countries - countries with better representation of their citizens through coalition governments, better voter turnout and more opportunities for referendums. 6.) We have a so called "free press" which either hides or glorifies the last five points according to a political agenda, making Americans believe that journalism here is as comprehensive as that in otherdeveloped countries. ...and the list goes on. One last note: I have a dual citizenship which allows me to permanently move out of the country. However, my "other list" of things that I love about my country (having nothing to do with government or politics) keeps me here. I prefer to stay and be one of many voices of dissent. Mike Other References: http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheism9.htm http://gozips.uakron.edu/~david27/flm/chap9.htm http://www.accd.edu/pac/humaniti/colby/L19.htm Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is about the most ridicules statement I have seen in some time. Not all Americans are lazy stupid or helpless. Why donât you say all Arabs are terrorists? All the French smell all Russians are drunks except? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe StreetSent: Monday, October 24, 2005 11:26 AMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith! Whoa Big FellerKeith please don't forget Brian is an American, therefore he was born and raised to believe he is somehow special, and spoiled enough to expect everything to be paint by numbers. American 'culture' is all about instant gratification, less work vs more satisfaction/entertainment. This explains the typical american arrogance that drips from his rhetoric and which irritates you so well. I have no doubt that Brian is genuinely frustrated by his apparent lack of progress in this early stage but it is not really HIS fault, he has been conditioned with a set of expectations which do not fit the real world. This is why our insidious Disneyland 'culture' here in the Americas (well at least Canada and U! S) works so w
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
I was hoping that my description of my encounter with the music loving Frenchmen included a complete showing of the forest. My apologies if it did not. The views of my Arab friends are theirs and would show the forest from a different point of view. If what you are describing is the Bush Flu then yes the US and the world is threatened. If it the Bird Flu you are describing, there is a chance we will survive. My best to you, fred On 10/25/05, Frantz DESPREZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred Finch a crit : (...) I did encounter two smelly French guys at a local music store. (...) I have several Arab friends who would say that it is the US Government that is acting as the terrorist. (...) please, don't make of one sample a generalityLook at the forest behind the tree.I've seen on TV an american guy called Bush, speaking, walking andthinking like a duck.Do you think that all americans are treatened by the bird flu ? FD___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
Fred Finch a crit : (...) I did encounter two smelly French guys at a local music store. (...) I have several Arab friends who would say that it is the US Government that is acting as the terrorist. (...) please, don't make of one sample a generality Look at the forest behind the tree. I've seen on TV an american guy called Bush, speaking, walking and thinking like a duck. Do you think that all americans are treatened by the bird flu ? FD ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
Don't forget all the stupid and lazy Canadians up here. We've managed to vote in a provinicial neo-con guv'ment up in british Columbia which can go head to head with yours, selling off public utilities and ripping up workers contracts faster than you can say our premier was busted for drunk driving in the USA. And that's just following the overall trend in Canada towards an agenda of privatization, corporate back-bending and 'harmonization' 'twixt the US and Kanada. Back when I offensively asked about a centralized co-op type affair for biodiesel producers, part of the goal was to fight public corporations. As far as I can tell, most turmoil comes from the fact that the big companies must continually increase their profits on a quarterly basis, which is just not achievable anymore unless they resort to drastic measures. The upcoming battle to destroy the stock market may be initiated and completed by the success of alternative corporations which take the care to create articles of incorporation which strategically take into account human greed (wage caps) and endeavour to make airtight clauses to disallow company sale, and prohibition to going public. Whether this argument is misguided or not remains to be seen. Anyways, I enjoy good arguments (already had some) so I await responses! KF ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
Let's seesince your message originated from sbcglobal.net and you don't know how to spell ridiculous, I'll go out on a limb here and speculate that you are a fellow American. Sorry if I hit a nerve but maybe you should take a look around. Since I am also American ( BTW America refers to a couple of continents - not a country as is the typical brash assumption of many US citizens) and when I refer to American 'culture', I am referring to the US and it's subsidiary Canada, I can do so without being accused of foreign bias (even though we are all foreigners here who took over these lands from the native people who were here first). We will leave Mexico out of the discussion even though it is part of North America, due to the fact that it is only important as our remote slave labour state. I wasn't referring to all Americans, I was referring to Brian, but the validity of my statement in general terms still stands. That is the problem with generalizations, there are always a few exceptions. I wish there were more. I don't know what Arabs, French and Russians have to do with anything but on the subject of terrorism, perhaps you should educate yourself as to what your own government, and the corporations who control it, is up to in the world if indeed my assumption as to your origin is correct. Check out Noam Chomsky's Power and Terror for a clue (it is available in video form so you don't have to be able to read something lengthy with complicated sentence structure). Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!
Whoa Big Feller Keith please don't forget Brian is an American, therefore he was born and raised to believe he is somehow special, and spoiled enough to expect everything to be paint by numbers. American 'culture' is all about instant gratification, less work vs more satisfaction/entertainment. This explains the typical american arrogance that drips from his rhetoric and which irritates you so well. I have no doubt that Brian is genuinely frustrated by his apparent lack of progress in this early stage but it is not really HIS fault, he has been conditioned with a set of expectations which do not fit the real world. This is why our insidious Disneyland 'culture' here in the Americas (well at least Canada and US) works so well because it has had the illusion of being sustainable for so long. I see this kind of attitude all the time with university students. Even graduate students who are getting on in years; they like someone to lead them by the hand. We are a spoon fed continent. We like to have everything easy. Easy information, easy entertainment, easily achievable goals, easy to throw away (insert everything you don't like), and yes even easy sex (we have a pill to help that). Well, it aint always easy. Except for the sex part (speaking personally that is). ;-) The point about the site that is important is that it works for many many people. If there is one overriding principle it is make sure you are understanding very clearly what you are about to do before you start. If you don't know what %(w/v) means then you should not proceed. In fact your exact next step at that point is, go find out what %(w/v) means before you go any further. Do not assume. Do not skip over. Go find out. The fact that americans have this moronic attention span means that it is very difficult for us to take the time to just go and do this stuff methodically. We cannot concentrate long enough to read a web page. We see the fuel as miles rolling by our windscreen before the oil is even reacted. Carrot on a stick mentality. This is what the rulers of our society have created. Feel free to throw your television out the window if any of this bothers anyone! I guess it is hard for people in other parts of the world to know this about our infantile collective on this big island in the sea. Take pity you cruel task master, we are but children emerging from the playground into a world of harsh reality. Joe Keith Addison wrote: LOL Brian!!! Actually it's not funny. It's just inept, and it sows confusion - extracting such clouds of complexitites out of such simplicities is not exactly going to encourage newbies, though that's apparently what you're trying to do. Now it requires explanations of things which need no explanations, which always makes them appear more complex than they are, very encouraging for newbies, yes. Sigh... I say this because I'd rather not have people telling me I am not tip-top with my labwork. Tired is all. And I'm finally getting just a little tired of your saying our website doesn't work properly when it's quite obviously you who doesn't work properly. How come, for starters, you're starting with WVO and not virgin oil? How come lots of things. First of all, in order to re-establish the whereabouts of our feet somewhere near the surface of Planet Earth once again, see: Basic titration http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#titrate snip With readings of that which we could expect, we then moved on to basic titration. If you all will bear with me a moment, I do have some questions. I will intertwine my questions right into the JtF web site directions for basic titration. Our hope is to clarify these directions for ourselves and for other newbies as well. We believe that there are several statements found here and in the email list which are contradictory at best. Uh-huh. "Basic titration An electronic pH meter is best, but you can also use pH test strips (or litmus paper), or phenolphthalein solution (from a chemicals supplier)." I suggest sorting the test equipment according to preference. It's sorted according to cost and simplicity, cheapest and easiest to most expensive, and that's how most people see it, especially newbies. There's no confusion and no contradiction. We were ridiculed for using litmus paper. I don't think you were ridiculed, you were simply advised against it. Why do you need to say you were ridiculed? Why list it second if it is preferred as a third choice? Phenolphthalein sounds very interesting. Do you mean to tell me, after all this time you claim to have been studying this, months, that this is the first you hear of phenolphthalein? Why not give more information on the setup and use of this test? Yes we followed the links. Did you. Then what's the complaint? There's a whole section on "phenolphthalein", and more
