Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Keith, I have not heard from Stuart or seen anything on the site. I would like to review the technology with him as well. Art - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Hello Art, Stuart Has there been any further discussion on this? I hope it hasn't gone off-list, leaving the issue hanging here like this, lists are for sharing. If so, could you please bring it back onlist, and recap? Thanks Keith Addison Stuart, I have reviewed the information that you Faxed me and think there might be some other features which are affecting the evaporation rate of the water beyond high voltage. First of all, the water is at 50 deg C where water has a significant vapor pressure and also significant latent heat in the mass of the water. Second: High voltage can create a feature called electric wind which can create a higher than normal airflow rate across a water surface. A higher airflow can cause a higher evaporation rate as evidenced by wind blowing across a lake. It is not uncommon to get a multiple increase in evaporation rate even at room temperature by increasing the airflow across the surface of water. Third: There is no accounting for the heat required to provide the energy for evaporation. This is a physical law and not negotiable by high voltage or such. Water doesn't just exist at 50 deg C unless something is heating it up and this was not made clear in the data or sketches you sent. How much energy was added to the water during the time of testing? Fourth: I would like a better explanation how water vapor can be condensed using high voltage. I can understand how droplets (not water vapor) can be electrostatically collected if they can hold a charge but not water vapor. I worked for a waste water evaporator manufacturer for awhile and noticed that the evaporation rate when the liquid level was close to the stack was quite high. As the liquid level dropped, the rate of evaporation dropped as well. It turns out the spray from fractured boiling bubbles was being entrained in the airflow out the exhaust. This entrainment counted as evaporation rate but really clogged the stack as the water evaporated and left the solids which had been in the evaporator waste water. Fifth: Your sketch showed water droplets being created by the airflow across the evaporator. If droplets are being condensed in a condenser downstream of the evaporator, the salt concentration of the condensed water will be the same as the salt concentration in the evaporator. That is not de-salination. Only when you go to completely pure water vapor are you able to leave the solids behind. Looking forward to your reply. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used. The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other things. For the first unit you can use steel sewing needles, but steel will rust in that environment, eventually you will have to go to stainless. I will be happy to work with you. Suppliers of high voltage equipment include Edmund Scientific, www.scientificsonline.com, SURPLUS CENTER www.surpluscenter.com or GAMMA High Voltage, ask for Dom Galluzzo Tel 904-677-7070. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. Of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 - Original Message - From: Art Krenzel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Professor Hoenig: You presented some very fine ideas with your recent post to this listserve. I thank you. I have followed the desalination concepts for years but have not heard of a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500%and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Keith, I have not heard from Stuart or seen anything on the site. Thanks Art, I thought not. I would like to review the technology with him as well. Art I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Best wishes Keith - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Hello Art, Stuart Has there been any further discussion on this? I hope it hasn't gone off-list, leaving the issue hanging here like this, lists are for sharing. If so, could you please bring it back onlist, and recap? Thanks Keith Addison Stuart, I have reviewed the information that you Faxed me and think there might be some other features which are affecting the evaporation rate of the water beyond high voltage. First of all, the water is at 50 deg C where water has a significant vapor pressure and also significant latent heat in the mass of the water. Second: High voltage can create a feature called electric wind which can create a higher than normal airflow rate across a water surface. A higher airflow can cause a higher evaporation rate as evidenced by wind blowing across a lake. It is not uncommon to get a multiple increase in evaporation rate even at room temperature by increasing the airflow across the surface of water. Third: There is no accounting for the heat required to provide the energy for evaporation. This is a physical law and not negotiable by high voltage or such. Water doesn't just exist at 50 deg C unless something is heating it up and this was not made clear in the data or sketches you sent. How much energy was added to the water during the time of testing? Fourth: I would like a better explanation how water vapor can be condensed using high voltage. I can understand how droplets (not water vapor) can be electrostatically collected if they can hold a charge but not water vapor. I worked for a waste water evaporator manufacturer for awhile and noticed that the evaporation rate when the liquid level was close to the stack was quite high. As the liquid level dropped, the rate of evaporation dropped as well. It turns out the spray from fractured boiling bubbles was being entrained in the airflow out the exhaust. This entrainment counted as evaporation rate but really clogged the stack as the water evaporated and left the solids which had been in the evaporator waste water. Fifth: Your sketch showed water droplets being created by the airflow across the evaporator. If droplets are being condensed in a condenser downstream of the evaporator, the salt concentration of the condensed water will be the same as the salt concentration in the evaporator. That is not de-salination. Only when you go to completely pure water vapor are you able to leave the solids behind. Looking forward to your reply. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used. The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other things. For the first unit you can use steel sewing needles, but steel will rust in that environment, eventually you will have to go to stainless. I will be happy to work with you. Suppliers of high voltage equipment include Edmund Scientific, www.scientificsonline.com, SURPLUS CENTER www.surpluscenter.com or GAMMA High Voltage, ask for Dom Galluzzo Tel 904-677-7070. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. Of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 - Original Message - From: Art Krenzel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Professor Hoenig: You presented some very fine ideas with your recent post to this listserve. I thank you. I have followed the desalination concepts for years but have not heard of a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500%and the evaporated water
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Have you tried to send them with a request to post in the files section to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ? They go right to the list owner. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 15:11 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information If biofuel will provide an address that I can send photos and drawings to I will be happy to, send them. All I get so far is we don't publish them. Stuart A. Hoenig [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Hello Art, Stuart Has there been any further discussion on this? I hope it hasn't gone off-list, leaving the issue hanging here like this, lists are for sharing. If so, could you please bring it back onlist, and recap? Thanks Keith Addison Stuart, I have reviewed the information that you Faxed me and think there might be some other features which are affecting the evaporation rate of the water beyond high voltage. First of all, the water is at 50 deg C where water has a significant vapor pressure and also significant latent heat in the mass of the water. Second: High voltage can create a feature called electric wind which can create a higher than normal airflow rate across a water surface. A higher airflow can cause a higher evaporation rate as evidenced by wind blowing across a lake. It is not uncommon to get a multiple increase in evaporation rate even at room temperature by increasing the airflow across the surface of water. Third: There is no accounting for the heat required to provide the energy for evaporation. This is a physical law and not negotiable by high voltage or such. Water doesn't just exist at 50 deg C unless something is heating it up and this was not made clear in the data or sketches you sent. How much energy was added to the water during the time of testing? Fourth: I would like a better explanation how water vapor can be condensed using high voltage. I can understand how droplets (not water vapor) can be electrostatically collected if they can hold a charge but not water vapor. I worked for a waste water evaporator manufacturer for awhile and noticed that the evaporation rate when the liquid level was close to the stack was quite high. As the liquid level dropped, the rate of evaporation dropped as well. It turns out the spray from fractured boiling bubbles was being entrained in the airflow out the exhaust. This entrainment counted as evaporation rate but really clogged the stack as the water evaporated and left the solids which had been in the evaporator waste water. Fifth: Your sketch showed water droplets being created by the airflow across the evaporator. If droplets are being condensed in a condenser downstream of the evaporator, the salt concentration of the condensed water will be the same as the salt concentration in the evaporator. That is not de-salination. Only when you go to completely pure water vapor are you able to leave the solids behind. Looking forward to your reply. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used. The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other things. For the first unit you can use steel sewing needles, but steel will rust in that environment, eventually you will have to go to stainless. I will be happy to work with you. Suppliers of high voltage equipment include Edmund Scientific, www.scientificsonline.com, SURPLUS CENTER www.surpluscenter.com or GAMMA High Voltage, ask for Dom Galluzzo Tel 904-677-7070. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. Of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 - Original Message - From: Art Krenzel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Professor Hoenig: You presented some very fine ideas with your recent post to this listserve. I thank you. I have followed the desalination concepts for years but have not heard of a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500%and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple electrical system. Would you elaborate on the specifics of the process, please? I fully support your concept of recovering biogas from organic wastes destined for landfills and subsequent loss from the cycle of life. Keep beating the drum! Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Stuart, I have reviewed the information that you Faxed me and think there might be some other features which are affecting the evaporation rate of the water beyond high voltage. First of all, the water is at 50 deg C where water has a significant vapor pressure and also significant latent heat in the mass of the water. Second: High voltage can create a feature called electric wind which can create a higher than normal airflow rate across a water surface. A higher airflow can cause a higher evaporation rate as evidenced by wind blowing across a lake. It is not uncommon to get a multiple increase in evaporation rate even at room temperature by increasing the airflow across the surface of water. Third: There is no accounting for the heat required to provide the energy for evaporation. This is a physical law and not negotiable by high voltage or such. Water doesn't just exist at 50 deg C unless something is heating it up and this was not made clear in the data or sketches you sent. How much energy was added to the water during the time of testing? Fourth: I would like a better explanation how water vapor can be condensed using high voltage. I can understand how droplets (not water vapor) can be electrostatically collected if they can hold a charge but not water vapor. I worked for a waste water evaporator manufacturer for awhile and noticed that the evaporation rate when the liquid level was close to the stack was quite high. As the liquid level dropped, the rate of evaporation dropped as well. It turns out the spray from fractured boiling bubbles was being entrained in the airflow out the exhaust. This entrainment counted as evaporation rate but really clogged the stack as the water evaporated and left the solids which had been in the evaporator waste water. Fifth: Your sketch showed water droplets being created by the airflow across the evaporator. If droplets are being condensed in a condenser downstream of the evaporator, the salt concentration of the condensed water will be the same as the salt concentration in the evaporator. That is not de-salination. Only when you go to completely pure water vapor are you able to leave the solids behind. Looking forward to your reply. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used. The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other things. For the first unit you can use steel sewing needles, but steel will rust in that environment, eventually you will have to go to stainless. I will be happy to work with you. Suppliers of high voltage equipment include Edmund Scientific, www.scientificsonline.com, SURPLUS CENTER www.surpluscenter.com or GAMMA High Voltage, ask for Dom Galluzzo Tel 904-677-7070. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. Of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 - Original Message - From: Art Krenzel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Professor Hoenig: You presented some very fine ideas with your recent post to this listserve. I thank you. I have followed the desalination concepts for years but have not heard of a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500%and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple electrical system. Would you elaborate on the specifics of the process, please? I fully support your concept of recovering biogas from organic wastes destined for landfills and subsequent loss from the cycle of life. Keep beating the drum! Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: [biofuel] Items of information Reading the messages it appears that most of the members are thinking only about their personal problems. Making biogas on a home basis is impractical
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
If you wish to see the figures referred to in this email, please send a non-Yahoo email address, or a fax number. Stuart Hoenig At 11:42 AM 5/10/04 -0600, you wrote: Fig. 1 Fig. 2 of what? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 10:50 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used. The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other things. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Why not send them to Keith Addison, the list owner, to post in the files section then everyone can read them? The way I figure, if I'm interested in the conversation there has to be others on the list, that is interested in this process, if for no other reason than to increase their knowledge or the subject. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 21:02 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information If you wish to see the figures referred to in this email, please send a non-Yahoo email address, or a fax number. Stuart Hoenig At 11:42 AM 5/10/04 -0600, you wrote: Fig. 1 Fig. 2 of what? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 10:50 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used. The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other things. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
If biofuel will provide an address that I can send photos and drawings to I will be happy to, send them. All I get so far is we don't publish them. Stuart A. Hoenig At 08:02 PM 5/10/04 -0700, you wrote: If you wish to see the figures referred to in this email, please send a non-Yahoo email address, or a fax number. Stuart Hoenig At 11:42 AM 5/10/04 -0600, you wrote: Fig. 1 Fig. 2 of what? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 10:50 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used. The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other things. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/bi ofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/bi ofuel/http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129okmhrn/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=1705083269:HM/EXP=1084340243/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://companion.yahoo.com15805b7.jpg 15805e3.jpg -- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used. The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other things. For the first unit you can use steel sewing needles, but steel will rust in that environment, eventually you will have to go to stainless. I will be happy to work with you. Suppliers of high voltage equipment include Edmund Scientific, www.scientificsonline.com, SURPLUS CENTER www.surpluscenter.com or GAMMA High Voltage, ask for Dom Galluzzo Tel 904-677-7070. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. Of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 - Original Message - From: Art Krenzel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Professor Hoenig: You presented some very fine ideas with your recent post to this listserve. I thank you. I have followed the desalination concepts for years but have not heard of a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500%and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple electrical system. Would you elaborate on the specifics of the process, please? I fully support your concept of recovering biogas from organic wastes destined for landfills and subsequent loss from the cycle of life. Keep beating the drum! Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: [biofuel] Items of information Reading the messages it appears that most of the members are thinking only about their personal problems. Making biogas on a home basis is impractical for the great majority of people and there is no large commercial industry in the business. With methane the situation is different, there is a huge business involved in methane production. In fact Tucson, which may be the most backward city in the US, runs buses on methane. It will run automobiles with just minor modifications. Another thing about methane, you can make it anaerobically by digestion of garbage, sewage and farm waste. The CO2 that comes off is used for softening hard water, the CH4 (methane) is used for fuel. Just think you get rid of sewage and garbage quickly and produce useful fuel. There are 500 plants in Europe and about 60 in the US. I can provide more information. The thing that is really going to be short in the Western part of the USA and many undeveloped countries is fresh water. The Colorado and it's dams are down about 50% or more. One simple solution would be the desalting of sea water. Work was done on this in Japan some years ago, it was shown that a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500% and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple electrical system and you have unlimited fresh water. These are things the world needs NOW, I would hope that the members will give them some consideration. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721-0104 Fax 520-887-9727 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Fig. 1 Fig. 2 of what? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 10:50 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used. The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other things. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Fig. 1 Fig. 2 of what? Greg H. Oops - attachments I guess. Stuart, the list doesn't allow attachments, essential anti-virus measure. It doesn't allow html-coded messages either for the same reason, plain-text ASCII only. Hence the auto-note at the bottom of your message: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Keith - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 10:50 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used. The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other things. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Prof. Hoenig, I received your FAX of figs 1 2 - Thank you! Where can I read more about the dehumidification process using high voltage? I have designed and constructed a wide range of Cottrell Precipitators during my career as a Chemical Engineer but have not seen anything about condensation of vapors using high voltages. I need to be enlightened. What is your best guess as to overall efficiency resulting from hooking both the evap and the condensing processes together? Looking forward to you reply. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used. The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other things. For the first unit you can use steel sewing needles, but steel will rust in that environment, eventually you will have to go to stainless. I will be happy to work with you. Suppliers of high voltage equipment include Edmund Scientific, www.scientificsonline.com, SURPLUS CENTER www.surpluscenter.com or GAMMA High Voltage, ask for Dom Galluzzo Tel 904-677-7070. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. Of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 - Original Message - From: Art Krenzel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Professor Hoenig: You presented some very fine ideas with your recent post to this listserve. I thank you. I have followed the desalination concepts for years but have not heard of a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500%and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple electrical system. Would you elaborate on the specifics of the process, please? I fully support your concept of recovering biogas from organic wastes destined for landfills and subsequent loss from the cycle of life. Keep beating the drum! Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: [biofuel] Items of information Reading the messages it appears that most of the members are thinking only about their personal problems. Making biogas on a home basis is impractical for the great majority of people and there is no large commercial industry in the business. With methane the situation is different, there is a huge business involved in methane production. In fact Tucson, which may be the most backward city in the US, runs buses on methane. It will run automobiles with just minor modifications. Another thing about methane, you can make it anaerobically by digestion of garbage, sewage and farm waste. The CO2 that comes off is used for softening hard water, the CH4 (methane) is used for fuel. Just think you get rid of sewage and garbage quickly and produce useful fuel. There are 500 plants in Europe and about 60 in the US. I can provide more information. The thing that is really going to be short in the Western part of the USA and many undeveloped countries is fresh water. The Colorado and it's dams are down about 50% or more. One simple solution would be the desalting of sea water. Work was done on this in Japan some years ago, it was shown that a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500% and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple electrical system and you have unlimited fresh water. These are things the world needs NOW, I would hope that the members will give them some consideration. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721-0104 Fax 520-887-9727 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Hello Stuart Reading the messages it appears that most of the members are thinking only about their personal problems. I don't see how you could reach that conclusion, it certainly isn't so. Best Keith Making biogas on a home basis is impractical for the great majority of people and there is no large commercial industry in the business. With methane the situation is different, there is a huge business involved in methane production. In fact Tucson, which may be the most backward city in the US, runs buses on methane. It will run automobiles with just minor modifications. Another thing about methane, you can make it anaerobically by digestion of garbage, sewage and farm waste. The CO2 that comes off is used for softening hard water, the CH4 (methane) is used for fuel. Just think you get rid of sewage and garbage quickly and produce useful fuel. There are 500 plants in Europe and about 60 in the US. I can provide more information. The thing that is really going to be short in the Western part of the USA and many undeveloped countries is fresh water. The Colorado and it's dams are down about 50% or more. One simple solution would be the desalting of sea water. Work was done on this in Japan some years ago, it was shown that a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500% and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple electrical system and you have unlimited fresh water. These are things the world needs NOW, I would hope that the members will give them some consideration. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721-0104 Fax 520-887-9727 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Professor Hoenig: You presented some very fine ideas with your recent post to this listserve. I thank you. I have followed the desalination concepts for years but have not heard of a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500%and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple electrical system. Would you elaborate on the specifics of the process, please? I fully support your concept of recovering biogas from organic wastes destined for landfills and subsequent loss from the cycle of life. Keep beating the drum! Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: [biofuel] Items of information Reading the messages it appears that most of the members are thinking only about their personal problems. Making biogas on a home basis is impractical for the great majority of people and there is no large commercial industry in the business. With methane the situation is different, there is a huge business involved in methane production. In fact Tucson, which may be the most backward city in the US, runs buses on methane. It will run automobiles with just minor modifications. Another thing about methane, you can make it anaerobically by digestion of garbage, sewage and farm waste. The CO2 that comes off is used for softening hard water, the CH4 (methane) is used for fuel. Just think you get rid of sewage and garbage quickly and produce useful fuel. There are 500 plants in Europe and about 60 in the US. I can provide more information. The thing that is really going to be short in the Western part of the USA and many undeveloped countries is fresh water. The Colorado and it's dams are down about 50% or more. One simple solution would be the desalting of sea water. Work was done on this in Japan some years ago, it was shown that a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500% and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple electrical system and you have unlimited fresh water. These are things the world needs NOW, I would hope that the members will give them some consideration. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721-0104 Fax 520-887-9727 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
