Keith, I have not heard from Stuart or seen anything on the site.
I would like to review the technology with him as well. Art ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Hello Art, Stuart Has there been any further discussion on this? I hope it hasn't gone off-list, leaving the issue hanging here like this, lists are for sharing. If so, could you please bring it back onlist, and recap? Thanks Keith Addison >Stuart, > >I have reviewed the information that you Faxed me and think there >might be some other features which are affecting the evaporation >rate of the water beyond high voltage. > >First of all, the water is at 50 deg C where water has a significant >vapor pressure and also significant latent heat in the mass of the >water. > >Second: High voltage can create a feature called "electric wind" >which can create a higher than normal airflow rate across a water >surface. A higher airflow can cause a higher evaporation rate as >evidenced by wind blowing across a lake. It is not uncommon to get >a multiple increase in evaporation rate even at room temperature by >increasing the airflow across the surface of water. > >Third: There is no accounting for the heat required to provide the >energy for evaporation. This is a physical law and not negotiable >by high voltage or such. Water doesn't just "exist" at 50 deg C >unless something is heating it up and this was not made clear in the >data or sketches you sent. How much energy was added to the water >during the time of testing? > >Fourth: I would like a better explanation how "water vapor" can be >condensed using high voltage. I can understand how "droplets" (not >water vapor) can be electrostatically collected if they can hold a >charge but not "water vapor". I worked for a waste water evaporator >manufacturer for awhile and noticed that the evaporation rate when >the liquid level was close to the stack was quite high. As the >liquid level dropped, the rate of evaporation dropped as well. It >turns out the spray from fractured boiling bubbles was being >entrained in the airflow out the exhaust. This entrainment counted >as evaporation rate but really clogged the stack as the water >evaporated and left the solids which had been in the evaporator >waste water. > >Fifth: Your sketch showed water droplets being created by the >airflow across the evaporator. If droplets are being condensed in a >condenser downstream of the evaporator, the salt concentration of >the condensed water will be the same as the salt concentration in >the evaporator. That is not de-salination. Only when you go to >completely pure water vapor are you able to leave the solids behind. > >Looking forward to your reply. > >Art Krenzel, P.E. >PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES >10505 NE 285TH Street >Battle Ground, WA 98604 >360-666-1883 voice >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stuart Hoenig > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:50 AM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information > > > Art Krenzel > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. >1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be >used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be >used. > > The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 >is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage >available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better >results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water >section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV >best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other >things. > > For the first unit you can use steel sewing needles, but steel >will rust in that environment, eventually you will have to go to >stainless. I will be happy to work with you. > > Suppliers of high voltage equipment include Edmund Scientific, >www.scientificsonline.com, SURPLUS CENTER www.surpluscenter.com or >GAMMA High Voltage, ask for Dom Galluzzo Tel 904-677-7070. > > Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig > > Dept. of Electrical Engin. > > Univ. Of Arizona > > Tucson, AZ 85721 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Art Krenzel > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 12:33 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information > > > Professor Hoenig: > > You presented some very fine ideas with your recent post to this >listserve. I thank you. > > I have followed the desalination concepts for years but have not >heard of a "simpler electrical system could increase the rate of >evaporation by 500%and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can >be condensed by another simple electrical system. > > Would you elaborate on the specifics of the process, please? > > I fully support your concept of recovering biogas from organic >wastes destined for landfills and subsequent loss from the cycle of >life. Keep beating the drum! > > Art Krenzel, P.E. > PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES > 10505 NE 285TH Street > Battle Ground, WA 98604 > 360-666-1883 voice > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stuart Hoenig > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:11 AM > Subject: [biofuel] Items of information > > > Reading the messages it appears that most of the members are >thinking only > about their personal problems. Making biogas on a home basis is > impractical for the great majority of people and there is no large > commercial industry in the business. With methane the situation is > different, there is a huge business involved in methane >production. In fact > Tucson, which may be the most backward city in the US, runs buses on > methane. It will run automobiles with just minor modifications. > > Another thing about methane, you can make it anaerobically by >digestion of > garbage, sewage and farm waste. The CO2 that comes off is used for > softening hard water, the CH4 (methane) is used for fuel. Just think you > get rid of sewage and garbage quickly and produce useful fuel. There are > 500 plants in Europe and about 60 in the US. I can provide >more information. > > The thing that is really going to be short in the Western part >of the USA > and many undeveloped countries is fresh water. The Colorado >and it's dams > are down about 50% or more. One simple solution would be the >desalting of > sea water. Work was done on this in Japan some years ago, it >was shown that > a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of >evaporation by 500% > and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed >by another > simple electrical system and you have unlimited fresh water. > > These are things the world needs NOW, I would hope that the members will > give them some consideration. > > Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig > Dept. of Electrical Engin. > Univ. of Arizona > Tucson, AZ 85721-0104 > > Fax 520-887-9727 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. 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