RE: [Biofuel] Bush on matter - a thousand points of light (revisited)
Yes, very promising! I'm glad you think so too. Interesting times, eh? Whatever did we do to deserve them? LOL! (It's an old Chinese curse: May you be reborn in interesting times.) Regards Keith Kieth, It took me a few days to digest all the stuff in your reply. Simply put, everything I missed in my original post was elaborated on with a great deal of logic, reason and facts in your reply. You're right about a level playing field (thinking about the school kid and "green" web sites). I also agree with the threat of misinformation. But like you alluded to in your reply, trust is playing a roll in activists on the web, and it contributes to the building of alliances and even a communal atmosphere. ...very promising! Mike Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Mike >Hi everyone, > >I've been receiving emails lately that have given me a burst of >enthusiasm and curiosity about the future. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Bush on matter - a thousand points of light (revisited)
Kieth,
It took me a few days to digest all the stuff in your reply. Simply put,
everything I missed in my original post was elaborated on with a great deal of
logic, reason and facts in your reply.
You're right about a level playing field (thinking about the school kid and
"green" web sites). I also agree with the threat of misinformation. But like
you alluded to in your reply, trust is playing a roll in activists on the web,
and it contributes to the building of alliances and even a communal atmosphere.
...very promising!
Mike
Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Mike
>Hi everyone,
>
>I've been receiving emails lately that have given me a burst of
>enthusiasm and curiosity about the future.
Good for you!
>Here are some of the things I've been thinking about. I hope you
>don't mind if I use this forum to express myself a little.
Feel free, that's what it's for - yes, it's a biofuels forum, but
what are biofuels about after all? Rather more to it than just saving
a bit of money and how much lye to use.
>Today, the political climate is tense. Many people (many in this
>forum) see something terribly wrong in our society and they are
>responding to it. Picket lines, protests, webblogs and expressions
>of civil disobedience are all around us. It is a climate from which
>the hippie communes emerged in the 1960's as a reaction to greed and
>abuse of political power. I see something similar emerging but, in a
>way that is more difficult to define and I think it is mostly due to
>the Internet.
Yes! Exactly what the 60s freaks (including me) didn't have, and it
could have made all the difference. On the other hand, they did make
a difference.
>In addition to this forum, I belong to other alternative energy,
>environmentalist and political activist groups who use the Internet
>to form alliances and organize in ways to both change society in the
>long term and help allies in the short term.
Yes again. We've discussed this a few times in the past in various
ways, but the more it's discussed the better, it could hardly be more
important, and it's integral to what we're all doing here, whether we
realise it or not.
Internet networking is the great leveller. The anti-corporate
globalisation movement (not "anti-globalisation" as alleged), the
worldwide anti-war protests, global opposition to GMOs, to name the
most obvious ones, would not exist in their present form without the
Internet, working in just the way you describe.
These new (or perhaps retreaded) movements are inclined to lose their
coherence and direction at times, to mill about in confusion, or so
it appears, but that's only to be expected, it's new ground, no road
map. There's a lot of discussion and criticism from within the
movement(s), often negative and not very constructive, but it all
helps, they seem to find their way again with renewed strength and
vigour.
So, for instance, the famous example, five under-resourced people
with PCs working at RAFI (ETC group) took on the mighty Monsanto over
its "traitor" Terminator seed technology, and won! (Though RAFI
rightly warned that the battle was not over.) Not the only example,
there are many others.
The opposition's response is usually various forms of disinfo, like
the infamous Bivings case concerning Monsanto and maize:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4412987,00.html
The fake persuaders
Corporations are inventing people to rubbish their opponents on the internet
There's more about it in the archives. This is just the tip of the
iceberg with this kind of disinfo campaign. It even has a name -
"viral marketing" they call it:
"An article on its [Bivings] website, entitled Viral Marketing: How
to Infect the World [by Andrew Dimock, head of Bivings' online
marketing and promotions division], warns that 'there are some
campaigns where it would be undesirable or even disastrous to let the
audience know that your organisation is directly involved... it
simply is not an intelligent PR move. In cases such as this, it is
important to first "listen" to what is being said online... Once you
are plugged into this world, it is possible to make postings to these
outlets that present your position as an uninvolved third party...
Perhaps the greatest advantage of viral marketing is that your
message is placed into a context where it is more likely to be
considered seriously.'"
Plenty more examples - see, eg:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/33126/
It seems they can't afford to be honest about it, and probably don't
even consider it - just spin, slimy tactics, and, interesting, they
get outed. They're not very good at all this.
Have a look at this:
"... Another picture - how is it that most any schoolkid can make a
better and more effective, more influential, website on "green"
issues, say, than a massive auto manufacturer can? ("What?? No Flash
banner page??? Bad design, hmphh - he's got absolutely no excuse for
Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter - a thousand points of light
You hit one of my really hot buttons. One of the most expensive schools in the nation, when breaking out the cost per pupil, has the lowest scores on any standardized test given. Standardized testing is not always a meaningful measurement of student capability, but it is often dragged out as the post upon which we can beat public education into submission. That should clarify that fact that money is not the problem, but it gets ignored as most would prefer to simply accept the easy way out. I have several relatives who teach at college level and they espouse the same unwashed garbage without using their fine minds to analyze what the problem really is. But what IS the problem? I'm certain Bob Allen would concur that many students working through college lack the ability to fully comprehend what they read, cannot write persuasively, lack logic and critical thinking skills, and further, cannot effectively use mathematics as a problem solving tool. What do you expect college professors to do when students come to them with poorly developed skills? Why is this happening? On the other hand, and I'm certain Bob Allen would agree, a percentage of students moving through colleges are very skilled, highly motivated and capable of academic success. Why the contrast? The situation in education is very complex. The argument put forth that American society places greater value on its military might than it does on education has merit. I've read somewhere that "where your treasure is, there your heart is also." What most folks ignore is the simple fact that throwing more money at the school system is NOT going to begin to address the problem as long as PARENTS use the schools as parking places with baby sitters for their offspring. That is one of the reasons that most schools are unwilling or not permitted to provide any punishment to miscreants. Hence we see pre-teens in handcuffs for temper tantrums or worse. I remember school being a place where only the "smart" boys had a chance to succeed. The kids who didn't do well were systematically shunted off to the "dumb" class, given the least experienced teachers with the worst textbooks, and suspended from school for any infraction that hinted they might not become ideal citizens. Many of them simply dropped out. I remember girls having three career choices: teacher, nurse or secretary. I remember racial discrimination, and I know what it's like to be treated unfairly simply for being poor and coming from an ESL family. This was happening on a wide scale as recently as the 1960's, when I was in school. Much has changed. There are greater opportunities in education for a far wider spectrum of our society than was the case when I was growing up. Pointing the finger at test scores and complaining that society is dumbing down and that schools consist of nothing more than a baby-sitting service ignores a lot of positive change. The teachers unions are not going to say money is not the answer because it removes the reason for their fight to get more pay and reduces their political leverage. The taxing folks are not going to say that because then the people will want to lower taxes and politicians are against you having your own money and choices because then government won't be providing everything. Clearly the students are not going to say that because they don't know. Let's examine teacher pay for a moment. Here's a web site you can visit that lays out salaries for various professions: http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_salaryrangenarrow_20.html The median elementary teacher salary in the United States is $45,617. A high school teacher will bring home $47,565, whereas an assistant history professor at the college level makes an average of $44,387. A full tenured chemistry professor might expect $81,139, after having education "piled high and deep", with the ongoing demand for peer reviewed publication. Compare this with an advertising manager--someone with a bachelor's degree who manages, develops, and implements product marketing activities to maximize sales of an assigned product line--and you will find their median salary at $83,096. So then, the people who are responsible for developing independent thinking skills are paid considerably less than is the case for people who are responsible for developing dissatisfaction among consumers. The average mortgage credit manager makes $95,477 for managing the mortgage credit underwriting function for a bank, and I dare say that such a profession is LESS demanding than planning an effective education program for children. Yet you argue that money doesn't enter the equation. I don't understand how you can write this. Unfortunately for many, the intelligentsia has sold the idea of more money to the schools rather than parental involvement and interest. I'm not confident that this idea has be
RE: [Biofuel] Bush on matter - a thousand points of light
SNIP For example, spending $0.50 for every $1.00 of my taxes on building the military does not represent balance when our (K-12) schools don't come close in comparison to most of those in the industrialized world. SNIP You hit one of my really hot buttons. One of the most expensive schools in the nation, when breaking out the cost per pupil, has the lowest scores on any standardized test given. That should clarify that fact that money is not the problem, but it gets ignored as most would prefer to simply accept the easy way out. I have several relatives who teach at college level and they espouse the same unwashed garbage without using their fine minds to analyze what the problem really is. No need to be rude, especially when it's far from certain that you're right. What most folks ignore is the simple fact that throwing more money at the school system is NOT going to begin to address the problem as long as PARENTS use the schools as parking places with baby sitters for their offspring. That is one of the reasons that most schools are unwilling or not permitted to provide any punishment to miscreants. Hence we see pre-teens in handcuffs for temper tantrums or worse. The teachers unions are not going to say money is not the answer because it removes the reason for their fight to get more pay and reduces their political leverage. The taxing folks are not going to say that because then the people will want to lower taxes and politicians are against you having your own money and choices because then government won't be providing everything. Clearly the students are not going to say that because they don't know. Unfortunately for many, the intelligentsia has sold the idea of more money to the schools rather than parental involvement and interest. When was the last time YOU went to your kid's school to visit with a teacher? Even a bad teacher can be lead to the path of educating kids rather than babysitting, but someone who cares has to do the work. When was the last time you reviewed your kid's test results good AND bad with an eye to teaching the corrective information? When did you look at your kids homework to make sure they are getting the message? A little outside help goes a very long way towards making an education effective, and that is the parents JOB. In addition that is the sort of thing it will take to change the paradigm in our education system rather than more money. Let's put it on a more direct basis. How many of you discuss biofuels with your kids? Please see, for instance: http://journeytoforever.org/edu.html#biofuel Schools participation > Biofuels And: http://journeytoforever.org/edu_resource.html Education resources for teachers, students and parents > Home schooling Popular resources. There are quite a number of students and schoolkids on the list, and we're always helping them when they write to us after visiting our website seeking assistance with biofuels projects. I'm sure we're not the only ones. Some list members joined because they were helping their children with science fair projects on biofuels. There are also quite a number of people here who're working on biofuels projects with schools, colleges, youth and community programs and so on. List members do a lot of advocacy and education work, always have done. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ That is educational, if someone explains some of the technical and financial issues that are hidden from view. I do. We cannot move towards biofuel usage without educating people with more than the intelligentsia allows in schools. Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Bush on matter - a thousand points of light (revisited)
Hi everyone,
I've been receiving emails lately that have given me a burst of
enthusiasm and curiosity about the future.
Good for you!
Here are some of the things I've been thinking about. I hope you
don't mind if I use this forum to express myself a little.
Feel free, that's what it's for - yes, it's a biofuels forum, but
what are biofuels about after all? Rather more to it than just saving
a bit of money and how much lye to use.
Today, the political climate is tense. Many people (many in this
forum) see something terribly wrong in our society and they are
responding to it. Picket lines, protests, webblogs and expressions
of civil disobedience are all around us. It is a climate from which
the hippie communes emerged in the 1960's as a reaction to greed and
abuse of political power. I see something similar emerging but, in a
way that is more difficult to define and I think it is mostly due to
the Internet.
Yes! Exactly what the 60s freaks (including me) didn't have, and it
could have made all the difference. On the other hand, they did make
a difference.
In addition to this forum, I belong to other alternative energy,
environmentalist and political activist groups who use the Internet
to form alliances and organize in ways to both change society in the
long term and help allies in the short term.
Yes again. We've discussed this a few times in the past in various
ways, but the more it's discussed the better, it could hardly be more
important, and it's integral to what we're all doing here, whether we
realise it or not.
Internet networking is the great leveller. The anti-corporate
globalisation movement (not "anti-globalisation" as alleged), the
worldwide anti-war protests, global opposition to GMOs, to name the
most obvious ones, would not exist in their present form without the
Internet, working in just the way you describe.
These new (or perhaps retreaded) movements are inclined to lose their
coherence and direction at times, to mill about in confusion, or so
it appears, but that's only to be expected, it's new ground, no road
map. There's a lot of discussion and criticism from within the
movement(s), often negative and not very constructive, but it all
helps, they seem to find their way again with renewed strength and
vigour.
So, for instance, the famous example, five under-resourced people
with PCs working at RAFI (ETC group) took on the mighty Monsanto over
its "traitor" Terminator seed technology, and won! (Though RAFI
rightly warned that the battle was not over.) Not the only example,
there are many others.
The opposition's response is usually various forms of disinfo, like
the infamous Bivings case concerning Monsanto and maize:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4412987,00.html
The fake persuaders
Corporations are inventing people to rubbish their opponents on the internet
There's more about it in the archives. This is just the tip of the
iceberg with this kind of disinfo campaign. It even has a name -
"viral marketing" they call it:
"An article on its [Bivings] website, entitled Viral Marketing: How
to Infect the World [by Andrew Dimock, head of Bivings' online
marketing and promotions division], warns that 'there are some
campaigns where it would be undesirable or even disastrous to let the
audience know that your organisation is directly involved... it
simply is not an intelligent PR move. In cases such as this, it is
important to first "listen" to what is being said online... Once you
are plugged into this world, it is possible to make postings to these
outlets that present your position as an uninvolved third party...
Perhaps the greatest advantage of viral marketing is that your
message is placed into a context where it is more likely to be
considered seriously.'"
Plenty more examples - see, eg:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/33126/
It seems they can't afford to be honest about it, and probably don't
even consider it - just spin, slimy tactics, and, interesting, they
get outed. They're not very good at all this.
Have a look at this:
"... Another picture - how is it that most any schoolkid can make a
better and more effective, more influential, website on "green"
issues, say, than a massive auto manufacturer can? ("What?? No Flash
banner page??? Bad design, hmphh - he's got absolutely no excuse for
getting 10 times more hits than we do.") How is it that sinister and
sleazy tactics like those of Monsanto via the Bivings group to
insinuate corporate trolls into Internet discussion groups get
rumbled and backfire on them? Yes, they have a strategy for this, and
huge budgets to back it, they hold business seminars on it, but it
doesn't work..."
-- [Biofuel] Made in China? - Final Thoughts (long), Happy New Year,
Over and Out.
http://wwia.org/pipermail/biofuel/Week-of-Mon-20041227/004301.html
But we go from strength to strength. From another previous message:
I think military supe
RE: [Biofuel] Bush on matter - a thousand points of light
Your missing the point. I'd rather "throw away" half of the taxes I pay at schools (or whatever...pick one) than the so called "military industrial complex" where our tax dollars buy the most sophisticated machines ever devised by our species for the purpose of waging war. Mike "James G. Branaum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Redler Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 11:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter - a thousand points of light SNIP For example, spending $0.50 for every $1.00 of my taxes on building the military does not represent balance when our (K-12) schools don't come close in comparison to most of those in the industrialized world. SNIP You hit one of my really hot buttons. One of the most expensive schools in the nation, when breaking out the cost per pupil, has the lowest scores on any standardized test given. That should clarify that fact that money is not the problem, but it gets ignored as most would prefer to simply accept the easy way out. I have several relatives who teach at college level and they espouse the same unwashed garbage without using their fine minds to analyze what the problem really is. What most folks ignore is the simple fact that throwing more money at the school system is NOT going to begin to address the problem as long as PARENTS use the schools as parking places with baby sitters for their offspring. That is one of the reasons that most schools are unwilling or not permitted to provide any punishment to miscreants. Hence we see pre-teens in handcuffs for temper tantrums or worse. The teachers unions are not going to say money is not the answer because it removes the reason for their fight to get more pay and reduces their political leverage. The taxing folks are not going to say that because then the people will want to lower taxes and politicians are against you having your own money and choices because then government won't be providing everything. Clearly the students are not going to say that because they don't know. Unfortunately for many, the intelligentsia has sold the idea of more money to the schools rather than parental involvement and interest. When was the last time YOU went to your kid's school to visit with a teacher? Even a bad teacher can be lead to the path of educating kids rather than babysitting, but someone who cares has to do the work. When was the last time you reviewed your kid's test results good AND bad with an eye to teaching the corrective information? When did you look at your kids homework to make sure they are getting the message? A little outside help goes a very long way towards making an education effective, and that is the parents JOB. In addition that is the sort of thing it will take to change the paradigm in our education system rather than more money. Let's put it on a more direct basis. How many of you discuss biofuels with your kids? That is educational, if someone explains some of the technical and financial issues that are hidden from view. I do. We cannot move towards biofuel usage without educating people with more than the intelligentsia allows in schools. Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Bush on matter - a thousand points of light
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Redler Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 11:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter - a thousand points of light SNIP For example, spending $0.50 for every $1.00 of my taxes on building the military does not represent balance when our (K-12) schools don't come close in comparison to most of those in the industrialized world. SNIP You hit one of my really hot buttons. One of the most expensive schools in the nation, when breaking out the cost per pupil, has the lowest scores on any standardized test given. That should clarify that fact that money is not the problem, but it gets ignored as most would prefer to simply accept the easy way out. I have several relatives who teach at college level and they espouse the same unwashed garbage without using their fine minds to analyze what the problem really is. What most folks ignore is the simple fact that throwing more money at the school system is NOT going to begin to address the problem as long as PARENTS use the schools as parking places with baby sitters for their offspring. That is one of the reasons that most schools are unwilling or not permitted to provide any punishment to miscreants. Hence we see pre-teens in handcuffs for temper tantrums or worse. The teachers unions are not going to say money is not the answer because it removes the reason for their fight to get more pay and reduces their political leverage. The taxing folks are not going to say that because then the people will want to lower taxes and politicians are against you having your own money and choices because then government won't be providing everything. Clearly the students are not going to say that because they don't know. Unfortunately for many, the intelligentsia has sold the idea of more money to the schools rather than parental involvement and interest. When was the last time YOU went to your kid's school to visit with a teacher? Even a bad teacher can be lead to the path of educating kids rather than babysitting, but someone who cares has to do the work. When was the last time you reviewed your kid's test results good AND bad with an eye to teaching the corrective information? When did you look at your kids homework to make sure they are getting the message? A little outside help goes a very long way towards making an education effective, and that is the parents JOB. In addition that is the sort of thing it will take to change the paradigm in our education system rather than more money. Let's put it on a more direct basis. How many of you discuss biofuels with your kids? That is educational, if someone explains some of the technical and financial issues that are hidden from view. I do. We cannot move towards biofuel usage without educating people with more than the intelligentsia allows in schools. Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter - a thousand points of light
Hi Dan, Thanks for the reply. My only comment is about use of the word "community". Although I don't disagree, It wasn't my quote. Dan wrote: "By the way, in the larger picture (the community as you refer to it) the barter chain may be much longer." George H. W. Bush said: "I have spoken of a thousand points of light, of all the community organizations that are spread like stars throughout the Nation, doing good." I would be very excited to see this noble idea actually used as something other than propaganda, to keep back the interests of big money and the ruling class, from where the author came. Mike Daniel Crandall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Message: 12 Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:11:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Redler Mike, you wrote: "..So, where am I going with this? I was just thinking, wouldn't it be exciting to have alliances that form within all communities in a way that replaces dependence on the Dollar, oil, utilities, etc., with knowledge and materials that are traded among you and your peers? I would be very excited to see this noble idea actually used as something other than propaganda, to keep back the interests of big money and the ruling class, from where the author came." If I understand you correctly you are referring to "bartering" and yes, we businesses do already barter. I'll design this for you in exchange for you providing that for me and no money gets exchanged. As you know, we report the value of these exchanges on our income taxes so we are still tied to the almighty dollar. By the way, in the larger picture (the community as you refer to it) the barter chain may be much longer. I need this and you need that and we go through several more businesses to get to what we need. Dan Crandall ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter - a thousand points of light
Hi Dan, Thanks for the reply. My only comment is Daniel Crandall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Message: 12 Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:11:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Redler Mike, you wrote: "..So, where am I going with this? I was just thinking, wouldn't it be exciting to have alliances that form within all communities in a way that replaces dependence on the Dollar, oil, utilities, etc., with knowledge and materials that are traded among you and your peers? I would be very excited to see this noble idea actually used as something other than propaganda, to keep back the interests of big money and the ruling class, from where the author came." If I understand you correctly you are referring to "bartering" and yes, we businesses do already barter. I'll design this for you in exchange for you providing that for me and no money gets exchanged. As you know, we report the value of these exchanges on our income taxes so we are still tied to the almighty dollar. By the way, in the larger picture (the community as you refer to it) the barter chain may be much longer. I need this and you need that and we go through several more businesses to get to what we need. Dan Crandall ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter - a thousand points of light
Hi Dan, Thanks for the reply. My only comment is that the word "community" is out of the Bush quote. Those were not my words. I suggested that when a hypocrite says something that he/she has demonstrated contempt for in the past, the words might still be important. George H. W. Bush said: "I have spoken of a thousand points of light, of all the community organizations that are spread like stars throughout the Nation, doing good." (IMHO) When you pay a government (taxes) to serve the needs of the people, and instead they serve themselves, one should be encouraged to become innovative with alternatives that both serve those needs and inspire change. For example, spending $0.50 for every $1.00 of my taxes on building the military does not represent balance when our (K-12) schools don't come close in comparison to most of those in the industrialized world. Those who are alarmed by this statistic might organize to form a better method for educating their children within their community. It's not a new idea and I certainly don't take credit for it. However, the idea to think global and act local is beginning to have an impact on energy by the evidence we see in the biofuel group postings. That is what I'm excited about! This is what I talk about with my friends, family and neighbors. This is a sentiment that I hope spreads quickly. Mike Daniel Crandall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Message: 12 Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:11:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Redler Mike, you wrote: "..So, where am I going with this? I was just thinking, wouldn't it be exciting to have alliances that form within all communities in a way that replaces dependence on the Dollar, oil, utilities, etc., with knowledge and materials that are traded among you and your peers? I would be very excited to see this noble idea actually used as something other than propaganda, to keep back the interests of big money and the ruling class, from where the author came." If I understand you correctly you are referring to "bartering" and yes, we businesses do already barter. I'll design this for you in exchange for you providing that for me and no money gets exchanged. As you know, we report the value of these exchanges on our income taxes so we are still tied to the almighty dollar. By the way, in the larger picture (the community as you refer to it) the barter chain may be much longer. I need this and you need that and we go through several more businesses to get to what we need. Dan Crandall ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Bush on matter - a thousand points of light
Message: 12 Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:11:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mike, you wrote: "..So, where am I going with this? I was just thinking, wouldn't it be exciting to have alliances that form within all communities in a way that replaces dependence on the Dollar, oil, utilities, etc., with knowledge and materials that are traded among you and your peers? I would be very excited to see this noble idea actually used as something other than propaganda, to keep back the interests of big money and the ruling class, from where the author came." If I understand you correctly you are referring to "bartering" and yes, we businesses do already barter. I'll design this for you in exchange for you providing that for me and no money gets exchanged. As you know, we report the value of these exchanges on our income taxes so we are still tied to the almighty dollar. By the way, in the larger picture (the community as you refer to it) the barter chain may be much longer. I need this and you need that and we go through several more businesses to get to what we need. Dan Crandall ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Bush on matter - a thousand points of light (revisited)
Hi everyone, I've been receiving emails lately that have given me a burst of enthusiasm and curiosity about the future. Here are some of the things I've been thinking about. I hope you don't mind if I use this forum to express myself a little. Today, the political climate is tense. Many people (many in this forum) see something terribly wrong in our society and they are responding to it. Picket lines, protests, webblogs and expressions of civil disobedience are all around us. It is a climate from which the hippie communes emerged in the 1960's as a reaction to greed and abuse of political power. I see something similar emerging but, in a way that is more difficult to define and I think it is mostly due to the Internet. In addition to this forum, I belong to other alternative energy, environmentalist and political activist groups who use the Internet to form alliances and organize in ways to both change society in the long term and help allies in the short term. We've already relied on each other reduce our energy bill, share information about appropriate technologies and reduce our dependence on those who don't have our best interests in mind. In the future, waste vegetable oil and other biofuels, for example, may become a common fuel for heating low income homes. The knowledge we share has already caused us to actually make some of the things we need instead of buying them at places like Walmart. I'm excited about those who work at Walmart not being coerced into buying what they need, based on where the lowest price and quality prevail and perpetuate a cycle of low price/lower pay. So, where am I going with this? I was just thinking, wouldn't it be exciting to have alliances that form within all communities in a way that replaces dependence on the Dollar, oil, utilities, etc., with knowledge and materials that are traded among you and your peers? George H. W. Bush said: "I have spoken of a thousand points of light, of all the community organizations that are spread like stars throughout the Nation, doing good." I would be very excited to see this noble idea actually used as something other than propaganda, to keep back the interests of big money and the ruling class, from where the author came. Mike Chris Lloyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The incredible thing is not that he says these things but that we voted for him. < I can't sat too much as I voted for Blair last time, we vote again next week but they all seem as bad as one another. Big business is running this country now, well them and the EU. The environment here is going to hell and all any party can think of is jacking the price of fuel and heating up. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 27/04/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter
"The incredible thing is not that he says these things but that we voted for him." When I see "our" president barely able to form a complete sentence and the message is as convoluted as his grammar, I think of a scene in the movie Fargo. A killer in the movie has kidnapped a woman and she thinks she has an opportunity to escape. She runs from him, full-speed, with a hood over her head and hands tied behind her back. She runs full-speed into a tree and collapses. I (along with the rest of the audience) burst out laughing and soon after wonder why. Mike "F. Desprez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Richard Littrell a écrit : > Dear Chris, > > This is classic Bush. It is up there with his other observations such > "Is our children learning?" from a speech on education, "More and > more of our imports come from oversees., I hope the ambitious realize > that they are more likely to succeed with success as opposed to > failure., We ought to make the pie higher.", and my personal > favorite, "The problem with the French is they have no word for > entrepreneur." The incredible thing is not that he says these things > but that we voted for him. > Rick Richard, As a french, I do appreciate your favorite. We of course like the bushism. It's good to forget our own leaders stupidities and the more serious threat on the planet from the Bush administration. The french translation of "Bushism" is "Busheries" (pronounced Boucheries, french word for slaughtering) , that made a new sense with Irak events. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter
Thanks, I didn't know about this. Rick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To see the full list of quotes, go to slate.com, type bushism in the search box, and read them all. They go back several years. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Chris, This is classic Bush. It is up there with his other observations such "Is our children learning?" from a speech on education, "More and more of our imports come from oversees., I hope the ambitious realize that they are more likely to succeed with success as opposed to failure., We ought to make the pie higher.", and my personal favorite, "The problem with the French is they have no word for entrepreneur." The incredible thing is not that he says these things but that we voted for him. Rick Chris Lloyd wrote: BUSH: "One of the great sources of energy for the future is liquefied natural gas. There's a lot of gas reserves around the world. Gas can only be transported by ship, though, when you liquefy it, when you put it in solid form." < ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter
>> "More and more of our imports come from overseas., which is sorta true since a lot of them come from Canada and Mexico. ... which are not overseas. China is though. Cheap stuff in, real jobs out. m-- "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956) Mencken's point of view is always worth considering, but I think he'd have been quick to say that this particular downright moron did not get to adorn the White House via anything resembling democracy, nor was he the candidate of the plain folks of the land. They were simply manipulated by fear-mongering, outright lies and bullying and smears of anything truly democratic. It was the neocons, recycled Reaganist war-hawks, leaders of the so-called Christian fundamentalist ultra-right, energy and corporate interests with little interest in anything that wouldn't knock the next AGR or the wide-open windows for graft who had their great and glorious day. Plain folks don't purloin an entire economy, the richest there's ever been, leaving millions upon millions of plain folks out in the cold. None of this is the work of plain folks, as rapidly growing numbers of them are now realising. Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter
>> This is classic Bush. It is up there with >> "More and more of our imports come from overseas., which is sorta true since a lot of them come from Canada and Mexico. m-- "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956) ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter
To see the full list of quotes, go to slate.com, type bushism in the search box, and read them all. They go back several years. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Chris, This is classic Bush. It is up there with his other observations such "Is our children learning?" from a speech on education, "More and more of our imports come from oversees., I hope the ambitious realize that they are more likely to succeed with success as opposed to failure., We ought to make the pie higher.", and my personal favorite, "The problem with the French is they have no word for entrepreneur." The incredible thing is not that he says these things but that we voted for him. Rick Chris Lloyd wrote: >>BUSH: "One of the great sources of energy for the future is liquefied >> >> >natural gas. There's a lot of gas reserves around the world. Gas can >only be transported by ship, though, when you liquefy it, when you put >it in solid form." < > > > > > ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter
Dear Chris, This is classic Bush. It is up there with his other observations such "Is our children learning?" from a speech on education, "More and more of our imports come from oversees., I hope the ambitious realize that they are more likely to succeed with success as opposed to failure., We ought to make the pie higher.", and my personal favorite, "The problem with the French is they have no word for entrepreneur." The incredible thing is not that he says these things but that we voted for him. Rick Richard, As a french, I do appreciate your favorite. We of course like the bushism. It's good to forget our own leaders stupidities and the more serious threat on the planet from the Bush administration. The french translation of "Bushism" is "Busheries" (pronounced Boucheries, french word for slaughtering) , that made a new sense with Irak events. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter
The incredible thing is not that he says these things but that we voted for him. Rick Uh, not me. But he carried my state, so OK. Chris K Cayce, SC ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Bush on matter
> The incredible thing is not that he says these things but that we voted for him. < I can't sat too much as I voted for Blair last time, we vote again next week but they all seem as bad as one another. Big business is running this country now, well them and the EU. The environment here is going to hell and all any party can think of is jacking the price of fuel and heating up. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 27/04/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter
The incredible thing to me is that half of those that voted for him did so BECAUSE he is an idiot! I know people who cast votes bad for him or that he comes across as a Regular Joe. Of course, these people don't seem to be able to connect him back to GHW, Samuel Prescott, and Prescott. Astounding! Richard Littrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > The incredible > thing is not that he says these things but that we voted for him. > ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter
This is classic Bush. It is up there with his other observations such "Is our children learning?" from a speech on education, "More and more of our imports come from oversees., I hope the ambitious realize that they are more likely to succeed with success as opposed to failure., We ought to make the pie higher.", and my personal favorite, "The problem with the French is they have no word for entrepreneur." The incredible thing is not that he says these things but that we voted for him. Rick Chris Lloyd wrote: BUSH: "One of the great sources of energy for the future is liquefied natural gas. There's a lot of gas reserves around the world. Gas can only be transported by ship, though, when you liquefy it, when you put it in solid form." < ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Bush on matter
> BUSH: "One of the great sources of energy for the future is liquefied natural gas. There's a lot of gas reserves around the world. Gas can only be transported by ship, though, when you liquefy it, when you put it in solid form." < Am I right in thinking this man has a university degree in business studies? Or was that before he hit the bottle? Chris Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 27/04/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Bush on matter
Actually, there is a Norwegian group. a company and some researchers at a university at Trondheim if I recall rightly, who are working on a method of shipping methane as hydrate; i.e. dissolved in ice, a solid. They think it may be more economical than LNG up to 6000 miles or so. It might possibly be safer. Maybe Mr. Bush was thinking of this. Maybe. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, Chris wrote: > The following is an unedited transcript from Bush's press conference tonight. > > BUSH: "One of the great sources of energy for the future is liquefied natural > gas. There's a lot of gas reserves around the world. Gas can only be > transported by ship, though, when you liquefy it, when you put it in solid > form." > > I wish I was making this up. > > Chris K > Cayce, SC ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Bush on matter
The following is an unedited transcript from Bush's press conference tonight. BUSH: "One of the great sources of energy for the future is liquefied natural gas. There's a lot of gas reserves around the world. Gas can only be transported by ship, though, when you liquefy it, when you put it in solid form." I wish I was making this up. Chris K Cayce, SC ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
