Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
In a post (see below)
dated 4/18/06 I was concerned that I had microbial contamination in my last two
batches of BD.
I have been unable to
reproduce the results of an experiment(see Post below) and now believe
that the whispy sedimentwas a soap.
After several uneventful
batches I got a similar whispy sediment in a batch in which I used recovered
methanol that I have reason to believe had water in it. ("Water in Recovered
Methanol" 4/28/06)
Checking my notes ( I keep
notes on each of my batches ... including a running inventory on gal used
from methanol barrel) the mysterious whispy
sediment was first produced when I used methanol from the bottom of a barrel ...
the last two batches from a 55 gal barrel of methanol. Water???
I suspect that the
mysterious whispy sediment is more likely a soap rather than a
microbe.
Solution:
Idrain two+ gallons
of wash water below the standpipe in the tank (Had been going only 1 gal. or
so). Any soaps that refused towash out stay in the tank along w about 2+
gal. of washed BD. Every 3, 4, or 5batches I drain the tank, recover the
BD and water some plants w. the clear final washwater.
No more
problems
Tom
- Original Message -
From:
Thomas
Kelly
To: biofuel
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:44
AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
Hello All,
I suspect I have
microbes in my recent batches of BD.
After washing, I drained the BD and allowed it to
settle. After a few days I noticed a whispy sediment on the bottom of the
containers of fuel. I gave the batch another wash and cleaned my 5 gal.
settling containers. The wash water was clear, but again the whispy sediment
appeared after a few days.
My next batch seemed to
wash very well, but again, a whispy sediment can be observed after the BD is
drained and allowed to settle.
I brought a sample of
the sediment toa local high school. We prepared a stained slide and
observed a multitude of tiny uniformly-shaped spheres at 400X.
I put 1 drop of the
sediment in a glass jar w. 250ml of clear, uncontaminated BD and put 250ml of
the same clear BD in an identical glass jar (control). Less than 24 hrs. later
the "innoculated" jar is slightly cloudy w. a very fine sediment on the bottom
and the control jar continues to be clear.
- I started using WVO that includes some
tallow. I noticed a post from JJN on
3/17/06 Re: Tallow:
"I am
treating all my bio with both an anti fungal and anti oxidant treatment since
I use tallow alot."
1. Any thoughts/similar
experience?
2. If it's microbes of some sort, should I treat the fuel
w.a
dieselanti-microbial and then filter it?
Will a
10 micron filter remove these critters?
3. If microbes
are present, do I have to be concerned w.
metabolic byproducts screwing up the fuel?
4. If not microbes, what's the
whispy stuff?
Thanks,
Tom
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Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
Thanks Tom, I wonder what is your final wash water like and how do you mix it i.e. stir, bubble etc? I was having some of the same trouble because I was not doing my dehydration correctly and as a result suspended water would drop out with soaps and cause this same sort of problem. A good solar heater/dehydrator is good, but in winter I have to heat it till it is clear then I drain the bottom out. This greatly reduces the problem. PS I still use an antioxidant/biocide if I am storing it very long. Jim Thomas Kelly wrote: In a post (see below) dated 4/18/06 I was concerned that I had microbial contamination in my last two batches of BD. I have been unable to reproduce the results of an experiment (see Post below) and now believe that the whispy sediment was a soap. After several uneventful batches I got a similar whispy sediment in a batch in which I used recovered methanol that I have reason to believe had water in it. (Water in Recovered Methanol 4/28/06) Checking my notes ( I keep notes on each of my batches ... including a running inventory on gal used from methanol barrel) t he mysterious whispy sediment was first produced when I used methanol from the bottom of a barrel ... the last two batches from a 55 gal barrel of methanol. Water??? I suspect that the mysterious whispy sediment is more likely a soap rather than a microbe. Solution: I drain two+ gallons of wash water below the standpipe in the tank (Had been going only 1 gal. or so). Any soaps that refused to wash out stay in the tank along w about 2+ gal. of washed BD. Every 3, 4, or 5 batches I drain the tank, recover the BD and water some plants w. the clear final washwater. No more problems Tom - Original Message - *From:* Thomas Kelly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:44 AM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Microbes in BD Hello All, I suspect I have microbes in my recent batches of BD. After washing, I drained the BD and allowed it to settle. After a few days I noticed a whispy sediment on the bottom of the containers of fuel. I gave the batch another wash and cleaned my 5 gal. settling containers. The wash water was clear, but again the whispy sediment appeared after a few days. My next batch seemed to wash very well, but again, a whispy sediment can be observed after the BD is drained and allowed to settle. I brought a sample of the sediment to a local high school. We prepared a stained slide and observed a multitude of tiny uniformly-shaped spheres at 400X. I put 1 drop of the sediment in a glass jar w. 250ml of clear, uncontaminated BD and put 250ml of the same clear BD in an identical glass jar (control). Less than 24 hrs. later the innoculated jar is slightly cloudy w. a very fine sediment on the bottom and the control jar continues to be clear. - I started using WVO that includes some tallow. I noticed a post from JJN on 3/17/06 Re: Tallow: I am treating all my bio with both an anti fungal and anti oxidant treatment since I use tallow alot. 1. Any thoughts/similar experience? 2. If it's microbes of some sort, should I treat the fuel w. a diesel anti-microbial and then filter it? Will a 10 micron filter remove these critters? 3 . If microbes are present, do I have to be concerned w. metabolic byproducts screwing up the fuel? 4. If not microbes, what's the whispy stuff? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org
Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
Jim, I stir wash. My final wash is often crystal clear. My oil is very good/dry to start. I normally get very little soap formation. My BD doesn't get to sit around long now that I use it to heat my house and for domestic hot water as well as in my car - '82 Mercedes 300SD. Tom - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD Thanks Tom, I wonder what is your final wash water like and how do you mix it i.e. stir, bubble etc? I was having some of the same trouble because I was not doing my dehydration correctly and as a result suspended water would drop out with soaps and cause this same sort of problem. A good solar heater/dehydrator is good, but in winter I have to heat it till it is clear then I drain the bottom out. This greatly reduces the problem. PS I still use an antioxidant/biocide if I am storing it very long. Jim Thomas Kelly wrote: In a post (see below) dated 4/18/06 I was concerned that I had microbial contamination in my last two batches of BD. I have been unable to reproduce the results of an experiment (see Post below) and now believe that the whispy sediment was a soap. After several uneventful batches I got a similar whispy sediment in a batch in which I used recovered methanol that I have reason to believe had water in it. (Water in Recovered Methanol 4/28/06) Checking my notes ( I keep notes on each of my batches ... including a running inventory on gal used from methanol barrel) t he mysterious whispy sediment was first produced when I used methanol from the bottom of a barrel ... the last two batches from a 55 gal barrel of methanol. Water??? I suspect that the mysterious whispy sediment is more likely a soap rather than a microbe. Solution: I drain two+ gallons of wash water below the standpipe in the tank (Had been going only 1 gal. or so). Any soaps that refused to wash out stay in the tank along w about 2+ gal. of washed BD. Every 3, 4, or 5 batches I drain the tank, recover the BD and water some plants w. the clear final washwater. No more problems Tom - Original Message - *From:* Thomas Kelly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:44 AM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Microbes in BD Hello All, I suspect I have microbes in my recent batches of BD. After washing, I drained the BD and allowed it to settle. After a few days I noticed a whispy sediment on the bottom of the containers of fuel. I gave the batch another wash and cleaned my 5 gal. settling containers. The wash water was clear, but again the whispy sediment appeared after a few days. My next batch seemed to wash very well, but again, a whispy sediment can be observed after the BD is drained and allowed to settle. I brought a sample of the sediment to a local high school. We prepared a stained slide and observed a multitude of tiny uniformly-shaped spheres at 400X. I put 1 drop of the sediment in a glass jar w. 250ml of clear, uncontaminated BD and put 250ml of the same clear BD in an identical glass jar (control). Less than 24 hrs. later the innoculated jar is slightly cloudy w. a very fine sediment on the bottom and the control jar continues to be clear. - I started using WVO that includes some tallow. I noticed a post from JJN on 3/17/06 Re: Tallow: I am treating all my bio with both an anti fungal and anti oxidant treatment since I use tallow alot. 1. Any thoughts/similar experience? 2. If it's microbes of some sort, should I treat the fuel w. a diesel anti-microbial and then filter it? Will a 10 micron filter remove these critters? 3 . If microbes are present, do I have to be concerned w. metabolic byproducts screwing up the fuel? 4. If not microbes, what's the whispy stuff? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
Tom, I'm no expert but I think you have pegged it. A stir wash will really clean a batch but it does take some time for it to clarify and when it does it often will leave a little white watery stuff at the bottom (very little that is) enough to make you wonder about microbes. Say do you use an oil fired heater to burn it in? Jim Thomas Kelly wrote: Jim, I stir wash. My final wash is often crystal clear. My oil is very good/dry to start. I normally get very little soap formation. My BD doesn't get to sit around long now that I use it to heat my house and for domestic hot water as well as in my car - '82 Mercedes 300SD. Tom - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD Thanks Tom, I wonder what is your final wash water like and how do you mix it i.e. stir, bubble etc? I was having some of the same trouble because I was not doing my dehydration correctly and as a result suspended water would drop out with soaps and cause this same sort of problem. A good solar heater/dehydrator is good, but in winter I have to heat it till it is clear then I drain the bottom out. This greatly reduces the problem. PS I still use an antioxidant/biocide if I am storing it very long. Jim Thomas Kelly wrote: In a post (see below) dated 4/18/06 I was concerned that I had microbial contamination in my last two batches of BD. I have been unable to reproduce the results of an experiment (see Post below) and now believe that the whispy sediment was a soap. After several uneventful batches I got a similar whispy sediment in a batch in which I used recovered methanol that I have reason to believe had water in it. (Water in Recovered Methanol 4/28/06) Checking my notes ( I keep notes on each of my batches ... including a running inventory on gal used from methanol barrel) t he mysterious whispy sediment was first produced when I used methanol from the bottom of a barrel ... the last two batches from a 55 gal barrel of methanol. Water??? I suspect that the mysterious whispy sediment is more likely a soap rather than a microbe. Solution: I drain two+ gallons of wash water below the standpipe in the tank (Had been going only 1 gal. or so). Any soaps that refused to wash out stay in the tank along w about 2+ gal. of washed BD. Every 3, 4, or 5 batches I drain the tank, recover the BD and water some plants w. the clear final washwater. No more problems Tom - Original Message - *From:* Thomas Kelly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:44 AM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Microbes in BD Hello All, I suspect I have microbes in my recent batches of BD. After washing, I drained the BD and allowed it to settle. After a few days I noticed a whispy sediment on the bottom of the containers of fuel. I gave the batch another wash and cleaned my 5 gal. settling containers. The wash water was clear, but again the whispy sediment appeared after a few days. My next batch seemed to wash very well, but again, a whispy sediment can be observed after the BD is drained and allowed to settle. I brought a sample of the sediment to a local high school. We prepared a stained slide and observed a multitude of tiny uniformly-shaped spheres at 400X. I put 1 drop of the sediment in a glass jar w. 250ml of clear, uncontaminated BD and put 250ml of the same clear BD in an identical glass jar (control). Less than 24 hrs. later the innoculated jar is slightly cloudy w. a very fine sediment on the bottom and the control jar continues to be clear. - I started using WVO that includes some tallow. I noticed a post from JJN on 3/17/06 Re: Tallow: I am treating all my bio with both an anti fungal and anti oxidant treatment since I use tallow alot. 1. Any thoughts/similar experience? 2. If it's microbes of some sort, should I treat the fuel w. a diesel anti-microbial and then filter it? Will a 10 micron filter remove these critters? 3 . If microbes are present, do I have to be concerned w. metabolic byproducts screwing up the fuel? 4. If not microbes, what's the whispy stuff? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail
Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
Jim, Yeah, I'm putting my fear of microbes to rest. I have what is often called a boiler. The oil fired burner heats water that is circulated through baseboard heaters. There is a coil in the furnace that heats water for domestic use. I used BD30 through the past winter and got the thing to run on BD100 a couple of months ago. Have played w. adding FFAs from cracked Glyc. cocktail to the BD. It's part of the plan, but right now I'm a bit distracted from the basement by beautiful weather and outdoor work. Best wishes, keep up the good work. Quite a few of us are paying attention. Tom - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD Tom, I'm no expert but I think you have pegged it. A stir wash will really clean a batch but it does take some time for it to clarify and when it does it often will leave a little white watery stuff at the bottom (very little that is) enough to make you wonder about microbes. Say do you use an oil fired heater to burn it in? Jim Thomas Kelly wrote: Jim, I stir wash. My final wash is often crystal clear. My oil is very good/dry to start. I normally get very little soap formation. My BD doesn't get to sit around long now that I use it to heat my house and for domestic hot water as well as in my car - '82 Mercedes 300SD. Tom - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD Thanks Tom, I wonder what is your final wash water like and how do you mix it i.e. stir, bubble etc? I was having some of the same trouble because I was not doing my dehydration correctly and as a result suspended water would drop out with soaps and cause this same sort of problem. A good solar heater/dehydrator is good, but in winter I have to heat it till it is clear then I drain the bottom out. This greatly reduces the problem. PS I still use an antioxidant/biocide if I am storing it very long. Jim Thomas Kelly wrote: In a post (see below) dated 4/18/06 I was concerned that I had microbial contamination in my last two batches of BD. I have been unable to reproduce the results of an experiment (see Post below) and now believe that the whispy sediment was a soap. After several uneventful batches I got a similar whispy sediment in a batch in which I used recovered methanol that I have reason to believe had water in it. (Water in Recovered Methanol 4/28/06) Checking my notes ( I keep notes on each of my batches ... including a running inventory on gal used from methanol barrel) t he mysterious whispy sediment was first produced when I used methanol from the bottom of a barrel ... the last two batches from a 55 gal barrel of methanol. Water??? I suspect that the mysterious whispy sediment is more likely a soap rather than a microbe. Solution: I drain two+ gallons of wash water below the standpipe in the tank (Had been going only 1 gal. or so). Any soaps that refused to wash out stay in the tank along w about 2+ gal. of washed BD. Every 3, 4, or 5 batches I drain the tank, recover the BD and water some plants w. the clear final washwater. No more problems Tom - Original Message - *From:* Thomas Kelly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:44 AM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Microbes in BD Hello All, I suspect I have microbes in my recent batches of BD. After washing, I drained the BD and allowed it to settle. After a few days I noticed a whispy sediment on the bottom of the containers of fuel. I gave the batch another wash and cleaned my 5 gal. settling containers. The wash water was clear, but again the whispy sediment appeared after a few days. My next batch seemed to wash very well, but again, a whispy sediment can be observed after the BD is drained and allowed to settle. I brought a sample of the sediment to a local high school. We prepared a stained slide and observed a multitude of tiny uniformly-shaped spheres at 400X. I put 1 drop of the sediment in a glass jar w. 250ml of clear, uncontaminated BD and put 250ml of the same clear BD in an identical glass jar (control). Less than 24 hrs. later the innoculated jar is slightly cloudy w. a very fine sediment on the bottom and the control jar continues to be clear. - I started using WVO that includes some tallow. I noticed a post from JJN on 3/17/06 Re: Tallow: I am treating all my bio with both an anti fungal and anti oxidant treatment since I use tallow alot. 1. Any thoughts/similar experience? 2
Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
Hello Thomas, i'm curious about the sediment... Do you have a picture or fotograph you can send to me? Thanks Citando Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jim, I appreciate the reply. I am getting some of the antimicrobial stuff you suggested. Until then I'm experimenting. I have found that a very small amount of the sediment added to 250ml of clear BD cloudy BD w. increasing sediment. This is what makes me reasonably certain I have a microbe. This morning I heated a 10L sample of the contaminated BD to 125F (drying temp.) and another 10L sample to 150F. If sediment from these samples does not grow in clear, uncontaminated BD, then I will assume that the contaminant is killed/deactivated by these temps. I'll forego using the biocide unless the problem rears its ugly head in my car or heating system. I'll also be able to decontaminate my wash tank w. boiling water. Good day to you, Tom - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:31 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD Tom, Fungus is common in any regular diesel fuel and can be in any biofuel as well. It is not bad other than you will plug filters much faster and it can cause corrosion if it is the right type. Nothing is safe if it is not 100% dry (free water that is). All parts stores sell an anti fungal additive and its also an anti oxidant. If you store the bio for long periods ( like winter) then you might consider adding it to your stored fuel. It is not real expensive if used as directed. Keep in mind that after it is added to Biodiesel, the Biodiesel is no longer biodegradable and non toxic to the same degree that it was. So for this reason I like to add it to the truck not the freshly made stuff that I will use in a week or two. I don't know if fuel makers treat Diesel with it at the refinery or not, I wouldst think they would with the spill hazards it creates. ( It is toxic to fish in very small quantities) Any one got a good way of disinfecting a reactor ?? The best of luck! Jim Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello All, I suspect I have microbes in my recent batches of BD. After washing, I drained the BD and allowed it to settle. After a few days I noticed a whispy sediment on the bottom of the containers of fuel. I gave the batch another wash and cleaned my 5 gal. settling containers. The wash water was clear, but again the whispy sediment appeared after a few days. My next batch seemed to wash very well, but again, a whispy sediment can be observed after the BD is drained and allowed to settle. I brought a sample of the sediment to a local high school. We prepared a stained slide and observed a multitude of tiny uniformly-shaped spheres at 400X. I put 1 drop of the sediment in a glass jar w. 250ml of clear, uncontaminated BD and put 250ml of the same clear BD in an identical glass jar (control). Less than 24 hrs. later the innoculated jar is slightly cloudy w. a very fine sediment on the bottom and the control jar continues to be clear. - I started using WVO that includes some tallow. I noticed a post from JJN on 3/17/06 Re: Tallow: I am treating all my bio with both an anti fungal and anti oxidant treatment since I use tallow alot. 1. Any thoughts/similar experience? 2. If it's microbes of some sort, should I treat the fuel w. a diesel anti-microbial and then filter it? Will a 10 micron filter remove these critters? 3 . If microbes are present, do I have to be concerned w. metabolic byproducts screwing up the fuel? 4. If not microbes, what's the whispy stuff? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
Paul, Thanks for the reply. I like the idea of treating a sample of clean BD w. the antimicrobial and then inoculating it with the cloudy stuff. I'll give it a try. My local auto parts store was all out of diesel antimicrobe stuff ... will get more in on Monday. When I asked if microbes were a common problem in diesel fuel, I was told that it's not common, but they do sell quite a bit of the stuff (antimicrobial). They were aware of filters getting clogged by little buggers, but didn't know if sales were to treat a problem or the prevent one. It stands to reason that if dino diesel is on the menu for some bacteria/fungi, and biodiesel is more biodegradable than dino diesel, it may well be in the metabolic repertoire of a greater variety, or at least more common microbes. I think that if the problem is microbes, it is good news. I was worried that my WVO was the problem ... maybe some new additive screwing up the works. I have made more than thirty 20gal (76L) batches w/o any problem. Others have probably made 100's of batches w/o cultivating microbes. If it is, in fact, microbes in the brew, I suspect they're in my wash tank . The reactor and settling tanks seem too hostile an environment for a soil or water contaminant to survive. I'll scrub the wash tank, run a batch w. oil from the same settling tank and see what happens. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Paul S Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD Tom, It's all those little mad cows swimming around ;-) Seriously, have you tried treating the 'innoculated' jar with the anti-microbial to see if it clears up? Or, try a third jar that is innoculated and treated with anti-microbial? Is there a microbiologist on the list? On 3/18/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, I suspect I have microbes in my recent batches of BD. After washing, I drained the BD and allowed it to settle. After a few days I noticed a whispy sediment on the bottom of the containers of fuel. I gave the batch another wash and cleaned my 5 gal. settling containers. The wash water was clear, but again the whispy sediment appeared after a few days. My next batch seemed to wash very well, but again, a whispy sediment can be observed after the BD is drained and allowed to settle. I brought a sample of the sediment to a local high school. We prepared a stained slide and observed a multitude of tiny uniformly-shaped spheres at 400X. I put 1 drop of the sediment in a glass jar w. 250ml of clear, uncontaminated BD and put 250ml of the same clear BD in an identical glass jar (control). Less than 24 hrs. later the innoculated jar is slightly cloudy w. a very fine sediment on the bottom and the control jar continues to be clear. - I started using WVO that includes some tallow. I noticed a post from JJN on 3/17/06 Re: Tallow: I am treating all my bio with both an anti fungal and anti oxidant treatment since I use tallow alot. 1. Any thoughts/similar experience? 2. If it's microbes of some sort, should I treat the fuel w. a diesel anti-microbial and then filter it? Will a 10 micron filter remove these critters? 3. If microbes are present, do I have to be concerned w. metabolic byproducts screwing up the fuel? 4. If not microbes, what's the whispy stuff? Thanks, Tom -- Thanks, PC He's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch You can't have everything. Where would you put it? - Steven Wright ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
Ken, Always good to hear from you. My in-laws own a bus company. In the past ten years they have literally gone through a million gallons of diesel fuel and their busses have logged millions of miles.During that time they have had only two separate occassions in which filters were clogged due to microbes in the fuel.It does not appear to be a common problem. On both occassions the busses had been out of sevice for a month or more and both had water in the fuel tanks. If it turns out that there are microbes in my recent batches, it is probably a fluke an oddity. But ifBD isbiodegradable in the soil and water, then something(s) in soil/watermust eat it.It's not hard for me to imagine how soil and water microbes could get into my wash tank. A couple of things to consider: 1. I use the final wash water of the previous batch as the first wash water of the next batch. If a contaminant was present in the previous batch it would be there for the next. 2. On each of the two occassions in which the whispy sediment appeared, I had let the final wash BD sit in the wash tank for almost a week before draining and drying it. If something was there tha t"liked it" it had some time to multiply. 3. The harsh alkali of unwashed BD might very well discourage subsequent growth of contaminants from a previous wash, but I had just taken to adding a small amount of phosphoric acid to the first wash to help wash soaps out and to thereby reduce the number of washes from four to three. A contaminant might now find the environment of the first wash to be less hostile. I rather like the idea of it being a microbe. I think I know how to deal with it. Stop using garden tools to stir the mix (kidding). Approach a reasonable level of cleanliness in making and storing BD. I also like the idea of the fuel being biodegradable, and not by some exotic thermophile, but by common soil and water organisms. Thanks for your time and thoughts, Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD On Mar 18, 2006, at 8:35 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: I normally heat the settled BD to about 125F to dry it.When I do this to wispy batchthe wispy stuff seems to clump and then rise to the surface in small globs. H..maybe somebody else here has seen this before -- it's a new one to me. Somehow I doubt microbes -- I think that would take months or years. -K ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
Jim, I appreciate the reply. I am getting some of the antimicrobial stuff you suggested. Until then I'm experimenting. I have found that a very small amount of the sediment added to 250ml of clear BD cloudy BD w. increasing sediment. This is what makes me reasonably certain I have a microbe. This morning I heated a 10L sample of the contaminated BD to 125F (drying temp.) and another 10L sample to 150F. If sediment from these samples does not grow in clear, uncontaminated BD, then I will assume that the contaminant is killed/deactivated by these temps. I'll forego using the biocide unless the problem rears its ugly head in my car or heating system. I'll also be able to decontaminate my wash tank w. boiling water. Good day to you, Tom - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:31 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD Tom, Fungus is common in any regular diesel fuel and can be in any biofuel as well. It is not bad other than you will plug filters much faster and it can cause corrosion if it is the right type. Nothing is safe if it is not 100% dry (free water that is). All parts stores sell an anti fungal additive and its also an anti oxidant. If you store the bio for long periods ( like winter) then you might consider adding it to your stored fuel. It is not real expensive if used as directed. Keep in mind that after it is added to Biodiesel, the Biodiesel is no longer biodegradable and non toxic to the same degree that it was. So for this reason I like to add it to the truck not the freshly made stuff that I will use in a week or two. I don't know if fuel makers treat Diesel with it at the refinery or not, I wouldst think they would with the spill hazards it creates. ( It is toxic to fish in very small quantities) Any one got a good way of disinfecting a reactor ?? The best of luck! Jim Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello All, I suspect I have microbes in my recent batches of BD. After washing, I drained the BD and allowed it to settle. After a few days I noticed a whispy sediment on the bottom of the containers of fuel. I gave the batch another wash and cleaned my 5 gal. settling containers. The wash water was clear, but again the whispy sediment appeared after a few days. My next batch seemed to wash very well, but again, a whispy sediment can be observed after the BD is drained and allowed to settle. I brought a sample of the sediment to a local high school. We prepared a stained slide and observed a multitude of tiny uniformly-shaped spheres at 400X. I put 1 drop of the sediment in a glass jar w. 250ml of clear, uncontaminated BD and put 250ml of the same clear BD in an identical glass jar (control). Less than 24 hrs. later the innoculated jar is slightly cloudy w. a very fine sediment on the bottom and the control jar continues to be clear. - I started using WVO that includes some tallow. I noticed a post from JJN on 3/17/06 Re: Tallow: I am treating all my bio with both an anti fungal and anti oxidant treatment since I use tallow alot. 1. Any thoughts/similar experience? 2. If it's microbes of some sort, should I treat the fuel w. a diesel anti-microbial and then filter it? Will a 10 micron filter remove these critters? 3 . If microbes are present, do I have to be concerned w. metabolic byproducts screwing up the fuel? 4. If not microbes, what's the whispy stuff? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Microbes in BD
Hello All, I suspect I have microbes in my recent batches of BD. After washing, I drained the BD and allowed it to settle. After a few days I noticed a whispy sediment on the bottom of the containers of fuel. I gave the batch another wash and cleaned my 5 gal. settling containers. The wash water was clear, but again the whispy sediment appeared after a few days. My next batch seemed to wash very well, but again, a whispy sediment can be observed after the BD is drained and allowed to settle. I brought a sample of the sediment toa local high school. We prepared a stained slide and observed a multitude of tiny uniformly-shaped spheres at 400X. I put 1 drop of the sediment in a glass jar w. 250ml of clear, uncontaminated BD and put 250ml of the same clear BD in an identical glass jar (control). Less than 24 hrs. later the "innoculated" jar is slightly cloudy w. a very fine sediment on the bottom and the control jar continues to be clear. - I started using WVO that includes some tallow. I noticed a post from JJN on 3/17/06 Re: Tallow: "I am treating all my bio with both an anti fungal and anti oxidant treatment since I use tallow alot." 1. Any thoughts/similar experience? 2. If it's microbes of some sort, should I treat the fuel w.a dieselanti-microbial and then filter it? Will a 10 micron filter remove these critters? 3. If microbes are present, do I have to be concerned w. metabolic byproducts screwing up the fuel? 4. If not microbes, what's the whispy stuff? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
On Mar 18, 2006, at 6:44 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: I started using WVO that includes some tallow. what's the wispy stuff?It's esters of stearic, palmitic, and other saturated fatty acidsprecipitating out of solution. Try warming the spheres slightlyand see if they melt. Biodiesel made from tallow does thisunless kept reasonably warm (summertime temperatures).-K___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
Ken, I normally heat the settled BD to about 125F to dry it.When I do this towhispy batchthe whispy stuff seems to clump and then rise to the surface in small globs. Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD On Mar 18, 2006, at 6:44 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: I started using WVO that includes some tallow. what's the wispy stuff? It's esters of stearic, palmitic, and other saturated fatty acids precipitating out of solution. Try warming the spheres slightly and see if they melt. Biodiesel made from tallow does this unless kept reasonably warm (summertime temperatures). -K ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
On Mar 18, 2006, at 8:35 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: I normally heat the settled BD to about 125F to dry it. When I do this towispy batch the wispy stuff seems to clump and then rise to the surfacein small globs.H..maybe somebody else here has seen this before -- it's anew one to me. Somehow I doubt microbes -- I think that would takemonths or years.-K___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
Tom, It's all those little mad cows swimming around ;-) Seriously, have you tried treating the 'innoculated' jar with the anti-microbial to see if it clears up? Or, try a third jar that is innoculated and treated with anti-microbial? Is there a microbiologist on the list? On 3/18/06, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, I suspect I have microbes in my recent batches of BD. After washing, I drained the BD and allowed it to settle. After a few days I noticed a whispy sediment on the bottom of the containers of fuel. I gave the batch another wash and cleaned my 5 gal. settling containers. The wash water was clear, but again the whispy sediment appeared after a few days. My next batch seemed to wash very well, but again, a whispy sediment can be observed after the BD is drained and allowed to settle. I brought a sample of the sediment to a local high school. We prepared a stained slide and observed a multitude of tiny uniformly-shaped spheres at 400X. I put 1 drop of the sediment in a glass jar w. 250ml of clear, uncontaminated BD and put 250ml of the same clear BD in an identical glass jar (control). Less than 24 hrs. later the innoculated jar is slightly cloudy w. a very fine sediment on the bottom and the control jar continues to be clear. - I started using WVO that includes some tallow. I noticed a post from JJN on 3/17/06 Re: Tallow: I am treating all my bio with both an anti fungal and anti oxidant treatment since I use tallow alot. 1. Any thoughts/similar experience? 2. If it's microbes of some sort, should I treat the fuel w. a diesel anti-microbial and then filter it? Will a 10 micron filter remove these critters? 3. If microbes are present, do I have to be concerned w. metabolic byproducts screwing up the fuel? 4. If not microbes, what's the whispy stuff? Thanks, Tom -- Thanks, PC He's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch You can't have everything. Where would you put it? - Steven Wright ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Microbes in BD
Tom, Fungus is common in any regular diesel fuel and can be in any biofuel as well. It is not bad other than you will plug filters much faster and it can cause corrosion if it is the right type. Nothing is safe if it is not 100% dry (free water that is). All parts stores sell an anti fungal additive and its also an anti oxidant. If you store the bio for long periods ( like winter) then you might consider adding it to your stored fuel. It is not real expensive if used as directed. Keep in mind that after it is added to Biodiesel, the Biodiesel is no longer biodegradable and non toxic to the same degree that it was. So for this reason I like to add it to the truck not the freshly made stuff that I will use in a week or two. I don't know if fuel makers treat Diesel with it at the refinery or not, I wouldst think they would with the spill hazards it creates. ( It is toxic to fish in very small quantities) Any one got a good way of disinfecting a reactor ?? The best of luck! Jim Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello All, I suspect I have microbes in my recent batches of BD. After washing, I drained the BD and allowed it to settle. After a few days I noticed a whispy sediment on the bottom of the containers of fuel. I gave the batch another wash and cleaned my 5 gal. settling containers. The wash water was clear, but again the whispy sediment appeared after a few days. My next batch seemed to wash very well, but again, a whispy sediment can be observed after the BD is drained and allowed to settle. I brought a sample of the sediment to a local high school. We prepared a stained slide and observed a multitude of tiny uniformly-shaped spheres at 400X. I put 1 drop of the sediment in a glass jar w. 250ml of clear, uncontaminated BD and put 250ml of the same clear BD in an identical glass jar (control). Less than 24 hrs. later the innoculated jar is slightly cloudy w. a very fine sediment on the bottom and the control jar continues to be clear. - I started using WVO that includes some tallow. I noticed a post from JJN on 3/17/06 Re: Tallow: I am treating all my bio with both an anti fungal and anti oxidant treatment since I use tallow alot. 1. Any thoughts/similar experience? 2. If it's microbes of some sort, should I treat the fuel w. a diesel anti-microbial and then filter it? Will a 10 micron filter remove these critters? 3 . If microbes are present, do I have to be concerned w. metabolic byproducts screwing up the fuel? 4. If not microbes, what's the whispy stuff? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
