Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Joe Street]

No absolutely not. Researchers here at the university colaborate with
others all over the world. I am no different. I'll wait till Darryl
returns and take his input and advice on how to set up the registry and
I'll take input from anyone else who cares to contribute ideas as well. :-) 
I want it to be an international thing. BTW I agree totally with Keith
on this issue of lying low. I already feel like I am sticking my neck
out driving around town with a car that has a license plate that says
"BIOFUEL" , the URL of my site and bold text that says "powered by
vegetable oil" One of my neighbors is a fireman but so far the fire
marshall has not asked to visit. There is an old Chinese proverb that
says 'walk softly when treading on the tail of a tiger' Quietly growing
our numbers, building a mass of evidence on how much better this is for
the environment, building a track record of safety, looking for chinks
in the armour of the powerful and preparing plans to deal with the knee
jerk reactions that will manifest from the fear they have of losing
control, are all things we are and should be doing on the quiet while
we can. Even now they are lurking and monitoring this list and know
what we are up to. The thing is, to take action they have to deal with
the bureaucracy. We don't. We are already on the move. We are
gaining momentum, and once we have a critical mass there will be no
stopping it. What we need to do is find ways to use the loopholes they
have left for thier own benefit, against them. The research angle is
definitely a case in point. Now that my reactor is working well and
very reliably, I am ready to take the coop to the next stage. I am
really good with the technical crap but the administration of it all
will be a chore for me. Oh well. Winters are long here and it is
worth doing. I have a list of contacts who have seen my car this
summer and are waiting for an update on the project. I hope I can get
enough support in terms of people who are willing to invest time,
effort and even some money to take it to the next level.

Joe
PS sorry for having my PC clock set wrong for the past little while.
DOH!



Thomas Kelly wrote:

  
  
  
  
  Joe, 
   Thanks for the offer.Would the
car registration be limited to Canadian residents?
  
Tom
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Joe Street 
To:
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent:
Saturday, January 07, 2006 9:29 AM
Subject:
Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


I think I lit the fuse on this thread but I'm just glad it is still
burning! :-) I
would also volunteer to run a similar thing here in Canada. Originally
my idea was just a kind of registry on my website which is sponsored by
the university I work for. My idea was that cars registered on my site
could be claimed to be part of a fleet of research vehicles. That may
be a valuable claim when the time comes that the powers try to put the
screws to home brewers.

Joe
www.nonprofitfuel.ca






Mike Weaver wrote:

  I'm very serious.  I would be willing to start it - my real business is 
to provide consulting to non-profits - I know how they work and I know 
how Capital Hill works.
The primarly goal is to keep biodiesel-brewing legal and safe.
I envision a DC-based non-profit that would keep tabs on legal issues, 
what big oil and big bd are up to, and lobby federal, state and local 
governments on behalf of BD. users.
I also think classes and training would be a good idea.
Names?  More ideas?

-Mike




Kurt Nolte wrote:

  
  
On 12/2/05, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?



I'd pay. If only to "stick it to the man" who's trying to pull the 
strings of the world, IE corporations.

-Kurt




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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

We would be an adjuct to what already exists.  I will say that one thing 
I would put on a BD advocacy website would be a guide to laws,
federal and local, as well as a How-to on setting up a BD co-op.

Any attorneys on this list?

Kenji James Fuse wrote:

The NBB does do some of this advocacy, although we all know it is
basically a lobby for the soy industry.

I'm more inclined to put my $100 into forming a co-operative association.
It seems more practical and hands-on. It provides very real protection, as
an incorporation, yet offers an alternative to the prevalent
'profit-at-all-costs' corporate directive. It also offers the opportunity
to get to know other biodieselers in your area.

Nevertheless, I'm all for a 'grassroots'-minded group. Isn't that what we
are already?

Kenji


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

Arggh.

I have no illusions that I would be getting anything out of this, much 
less a full time paycheck out of this.  I already have a job.  I own a 
business.  I do IT consulting for mostly broke non-profits whose causes 
I happen to believe in.  I could make triple what I make now working for 
the system - I just can't live that way anymore.
I spend an inordinate amount of time doing free support for another huge 
renewables website/list serv.  What I charge them does not even begin to 
cover what I put into it.  I also have other sites I support with my 
time and my funds.  I can't afford to take on something like this on my own.

Good for you on raw milk.  Given the state of the Texas lege I'm 
amazed you got anywhere (Yes, I have roots in Texas)

I never envisioned this as a full time job with a salary. You made that 
up. I envision a mostly Internet-based advocacy group.  I have already 
enumerated the issues that have come up.  If legislation comes up and I 
can make it to the Hill, I would go.  I would hope I could get other 
locally-based BDers to go as well.

No one has asked you to join anything.  If you don't think it's a good 
idea, then don't be a part of it.

Frankly, I'm amazed at the amount of flak that has shown up from *this* 
side of the aisle. 

I haven't noticed you contributing anything other than negative comments.

-Mike





Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings,
I am sorry you took offence, but many good grass roots based things have 
happened without someone getting a full time paycheck out of it.  For 
starters, we have legal raw milk dairies in Texas.  If you are planning on 
creating yourself a job with everyone's funds, please have the honesty to 
say so and tell us what you consider a reasonsable salary.  A list of 
qualification would also be appreciated.  I am not sure that anyone who 
snipes at honest questions is what we need to front such a movement, but I 
may have caught you on a bad day.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:22 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
  

Jeez, you're right!  How simple!  I wanted the money for myself!

Let's see, I am sure we can get someone to head down to Washington DC
and lobby to counter the well-paid lobbyists of the Big Oil companies!
And just anyone will do, they don't need to know anything or anyone.
Exxon is wasting is money with their lobbyists, as I am sure you can
tell by the last energy bill.
There really is no point in actually meeting with the members of
congress face to face and explain to them and their staff what's going
on when
we can bombard Washington with postcards!  And I will get right on
that free phone from Verizon, so that when people or the media or
congress calls
there will be an actual person to answer it.  May I forward the calls to
you, and can you promise to be available pretty much 9-5?  Thanks!
I've also been innundated with offers of free domain, web and email
hosting, none of which takes even a second to manage.  It just runs itself!
Actually, just in the time I've been writing this, several well-reasoned
articles and BD safety guidlines have written themselves, edited
themselves, and hopped right up on the website.  Which, by the way, is
not down due to technical problems, hackers or too many hits.  But I
guess somehow people will just find the Yahoo group if they are looking
for BD info.

There are always people like you assuming everyone else will shoulder
the financial burden.  I've been consulting in and working the
non-profit area for 20 years.
I know what happens to an organization when there is no funding.  It dies.







Garth  Kim Travis wrote:



Greetings,
I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a
member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership
is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.  Something as
simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on, will
work.  Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage and
starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people.  What is the
money for?
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:


  

All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?

-Mike

Doug Turner wrote:





Hi Mike,

  Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's bound
to be a cult classic.

  Doug

- Original Message -
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?






  

Nah,

when it comes it'll be from two directions:

The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
require fairly expensive equipment and insurance

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

mandatory


So don't join.


Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings,
So does JTF, I have given money to them.  There is a difference between a 
voluntary donation and a manditory charge to be a member.  I do support 
many of the organizations that I work with but when I choose to.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 11:16 AM 12/4/2005, you wrote:
  

Moveon.org also solicits funding.  My family has given them money.

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:



Greetings,
If you are watching what is happening on the pesticide testing on children,
forum, yes, we are making a big difference.  In Texas, we now have legal
raw milk, due to such campaignes.  Move on is an organization that gets the
people out to write to congress and it is working.  When enough
people  write letters, the congressmen get worried about re-election.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 11:52 AM 12/3/2005, you wrote:


  

Kim,
You wrote:
  I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be
a member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership
is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.

Has bombarding Washington w. postcards been an effective way of
steering national policy in a direction you are comfortable with?
 Tom
- Original Message -
From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?






Greetings,
I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a
member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership
is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.  Something
as
simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on,
will
work.  Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage
and
starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people.  What is the
money for?
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:


  

All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?

-Mike

Doug Turner wrote:





Hi Mike,

  Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's
bound
to be a cult classic.

  Doug

- Original Message -
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?






  

Nah,

when it comes it'll be from two directions:

The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average
home-brewer
can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by
Big
Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.

Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD
and
trumpet it all over the place.

The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now
and
set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
could stand, divided we'll fall.

When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel

Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver

Joe Street wrote:







I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles
thereby strengthening not only my case but also

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Joe Street]

I think I lit the fuse on this thread but I'm just glad it is still
burning!  :-) I
would also volunteer to run a similar thing here in Canada. Originally
my idea was just a kind of registry on my website which is sponsored by
the university I work for. My idea was that cars registered on my site
could be claimed to be part of a fleet of research vehicles. That may
be a valuable claim when the time comes that the powers try to put the
screws to home brewers.

Joe
www.nonprofitfuel.ca






Mike Weaver wrote:

  I'm very serious.  I would be willing to start it - my real business is 
to provide consulting to non-profits - I know how they work and I know 
how Capital Hill works.
The primarly goal is to keep biodiesel-brewing legal and safe.
I envision a DC-based non-profit that would keep tabs on legal issues, 
what big oil and big bd are up to, and lobby federal, state and local 
governments on behalf of BD. users.
I also think classes and training would be a good idea.
Names?  More ideas?

-Mike




Kurt Nolte wrote:

  
  
On 12/2/05, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?



I'd pay. If only to "stick it to the man" who's trying to pull the 
strings of the world, IE corporations.

-Kurt




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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Darryl McMahon]

Joe,
I think there is some merit to this.  Certainly a description of the 
rules that do exist (and proposed as we become aware of them) for each 
jurisdiction with Canada would be useful.  It's something I had in mind 
for the Ottawa co-op when I lent the greendiesel.com URL to them. 
Perhaps we can co-ordinate something, even using three or more sites. 
Let's talk some about this next week when I get back from Vancouver 
(electric vehicle conference this week including hybrids and hydrogen hype).

Darryl McMahon

(BTW, I already maintain registries for on-road electric vehicles and 
electric tractors on the Web, so I might have some useful information on 
structure and data.)

Joe Street wrote:
 I think I lit the fuse on this thread but I'm just glad it is still 
 burning! :-)I would also volunteer to run a similar thing here in 
 Canada.  Originally my idea was just a kind of registry on my website 
 which is sponsored by the university I work for.  My idea was that cars 
 registered on my site could be claimed to be part of a fleet of research 
 vehicles.  That may be a valuable claim when the time comes that the 
 powers try to put the screws to home brewers.
 
 Joe
 www.nonprofitfuel.ca
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Mike Weaver wrote:
 
 I'm very serious.  I would be willing to start it - my real business 
 is to provide consulting to non-profits - I know how they work and I 
 know how Capital Hill works.
 The primarly goal is to keep biodiesel-brewing legal and safe.
 I envision a DC-based non-profit that would keep tabs on legal issues, 
 what big oil and big bd are up to, and lobby federal, state and local 
 governments on behalf of BD. users.
 I also think classes and training would be a good idea.
 Names?  More ideas?

 -Mike




 Kurt Nolte wrote:

  

 On 12/2/05, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?



 I'd pay. If only to stick it to the man who's trying to pull the 
 strings of the world, IE corporations.

 -Kurt


 

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 messages):
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 messages):
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-- 
Darryl McMahon  http://www.econogics.com
It's your planet.  If you won't look after it, who will?


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Michael Redler]

  "stick it to the man"Yes!If people won't participate in government and it results in only half of the electorate picking one of the most powerful political offices in the world,it requires a revolution by those who see the imbalance of power, the epidemic of corruption and nationalist BS. Some revolutions are quieter than others.Myowngovernment, no wait, the government of my country, has a talent for creating loopholes for the wealthy. I am thoroughly enjoying the confusion encountered by local governments to close the loopholes and think of ways to tax energy at a time whenso many kinds are emerging.Tax gasoline, use ethanol  Tax ethanol, use biodiesel  Tax biodiesel, use wood gasification  Tax woodgas, usebiogas  Tax
 ...There will be a time when their ignorance about biofuels and ambition to tax u2 death will lead them closer to the supermarket! That's when things will get interesting.MikeJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I think I lit the fuse on this thread but I'm just glad it is still burning! :-) I would also volunteer to run a similar thing here in Canada. Originally my idea was just a kind of registry on my website which is sponsored by the university I work for. My idea was that cars registered on my site could be claimed to be part of a fleet of research vehicles. That may be a valuable claim when the time comes that the powers try to put the screws to home
 brewers.Joewww.nonprofitfuel.ca___
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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Thomas Kelly]

Joe, 
 Thanks for the 
offer.Would the car registration be limited to Canadian 
residents?
 
Tom

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Joe Street 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 9:29 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax 
  alternate fuel vehicles?
  I think I lit the fuse on this thread but I'm just glad it is 
  still burning! :-) 
  I would also volunteer to run a similar thing here in 
  Canada. Originally my idea was just a kind of registry on my website 
  which is sponsored by the university I work for. My idea was that cars 
  registered on my site could be claimed to be part of a fleet of research 
  vehicles. That may be a valuable claim when the time comes that the 
  powers try to put the screws to home brewers.Joewww.nonprofitfuel.caMike 
  Weaver wrote:
  I'm very serious.  I would be willing to start it - my real business is 
to provide consulting to non-profits - I know how they work and I know 
how Capital Hill works.
The primarly goal is to keep biodiesel-brewing legal and safe.
I envision a DC-based non-profit that would keep tabs on legal issues, 
what big oil and big bd are up to, and lobby federal, state and local 
governments on behalf of BD. users.
I also think classes and training would be a good idea.
Names?  More ideas?

-Mike




Kurt Nolte wrote:

  
On 12/2/05, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?



I'd pay. If only to "stick it to the man" who's trying to pull the 
strings of the world, IE corporations.

-Kurt




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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Joe Street]

Excellent Darryl;

Thanks for the post. I'll talk to the alt fuels group here at UW and
see what I can find out about what the research title affords them. I
know the solar car for example does not even require a license to be
driven on the road. I welcome your input from your experience with the
registry. Also give us a recap on the conference when you return. I
want an electric car. I was watching the movie GATACCA on the weekend
and it looked like a '70's vintage Fiat spyder that they were
portraying as an electric vehicle in one of the scenes. It inspired me
to get one and take the engine out..what a classy ride that woud
be. Say hello to the Pacific for me and tell her I miss her.

Joe

Darryl McMahon wrote:

  Joe,
I think there is some merit to this.  Certainly a description of the 
rules that do exist (and proposed as we become aware of them) for each 
jurisdiction with Canada would be useful.  It's something I had in mind 
for the Ottawa co-op when I lent the greendiesel.com URL to them. 
Perhaps we can co-ordinate something, even using three or more sites. 
Let's talk some about this next week when I get back from Vancouver 
(electric vehicle conference this week including hybrids and hydrogen hype).

Darryl McMahon

(BTW, I already maintain registries for on-road electric vehicles and 
electric tractors on the Web, so I might have some useful information on 
structure and data.)

Joe Street wrote:
  
  
I think I lit the fuse on this thread but I'm just glad it is still 
burning! :-)I would also volunteer to run a similar thing here in 
Canada.  Originally my idea was just a kind of registry on my website 
which is sponsored by the university I work for.  My idea was that cars 
registered on my site could be claimed to be part of a fleet of research 
vehicles.  That may be a valuable claim when the time comes that the 
powers try to put the screws to home brewers.

Joe
www.nonprofitfuel.ca






Mike Weaver wrote:



  I'm very serious.  I would be willing to start it - my real business 
is to provide consulting to non-profits - I know how they work and I 
know how Capital Hill works.
The primarly goal is to keep biodiesel-brewing legal and safe.
I envision a DC-based non-profit that would keep tabs on legal issues, 
what big oil and big bd are up to, and lobby federal, state and local 
governments on behalf of BD. users.
I also think classes and training would be a good idea.
Names?  More ideas?

-Mike




Kurt Nolte wrote:

 

  
  
On 12/2/05, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
   advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
   would anyone pay to be a member?



I'd pay. If only to "stick it to the man" who's trying to pull the 
strings of the world, IE corporations.

-Kurt




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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Keith Addison]

Mike

snip

Frankly, I'm amazed at the amount of flak that has shown up from *this*
side of the aisle.

There's no aisle here.

I haven't noticed you contributing anything other than negative comments.

Seems you didn't catch him on a bad day Kim.

What are you trying to say Mike? Kim has contributed nothing but 
positive comments - she positively disagrees with you and she says 
why.

I do hope you're referring specifically to this thread. Whether you 
are or not, it's not up to you to stand in judgment of another list 
member's contribution, and certainly not to be negative about it.

Kindly make yourself clear. I think you owe Kim an apology.

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner

 

-Mike


Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

 Greetings,
 I am sorry you took offence, but many good grass roots based things have
 happened without someone getting a full time paycheck out of it.  For
 starters, we have legal raw milk dairies in Texas.  If you are planning on
 creating yourself a job with everyone's funds, please have the honesty to
 say so and tell us what you consider a reasonsable salary.  A list of
 qualification would also be appreciated.  I am not sure that anyone who
 snipes at honest questions is what we need to front such a movement, but I
 may have caught you on a bad day.
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 
 At 07:22 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
 
 
 Jeez, you're right!  How simple!  I wanted the money for myself!
 
 Let's see, I am sure we can get someone to head down to Washington DC
 and lobby to counter the well-paid lobbyists of the Big Oil companies!
 And just anyone will do, they don't need to know anything or anyone.
 Exxon is wasting is money with their lobbyists, as I am sure you can
 tell by the last energy bill.
 There really is no point in actually meeting with the members of
 congress face to face and explain to them and their staff what's going
 on when
 we can bombard Washington with postcards!  And I will get right on
 that free phone from Verizon, so that when people or the media or
 congress calls
 there will be an actual person to answer it.  May I forward the calls to
 you, and can you promise to be available pretty much 9-5?  Thanks!
 I've also been innundated with offers of free domain, web and email
 hosting, none of which takes even a second to manage.  It just runs itself!
 Actually, just in the time I've been writing this, several well-reasoned
 articles and BD safety guidlines have written themselves, edited
 themselves, and hopped right up on the website.  Which, by the way, is
 not down due to technical problems, hackers or too many hits.  But I
 guess somehow people will just find the Yahoo group if they are looking
 for BD info.
 
 There are always people like you assuming everyone else will shoulder
 the financial burden.  I've been consulting in and working the
 non-profit area for 20 years.
 I know what happens to an organization when there is no funding.  It dies.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Garth  Kim Travis wrote:
 
 
 
 Greetings,
 I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a
 member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership
 is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with. 
Something as
 simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post 
messages on, will
 work.  Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the 
postage and
 starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people.  What is the
 money for?
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 
 At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
 
 
 
 
 All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
 advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
 would anyone pay to be a member?
 
 -Mike
 
 Doug Turner wrote:

snip


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Keith Addison]

 is that the list cannot be used for fundraising. It should 
be obvious that we'd have a policy on that, just as we'd have one on 
spamming and commercial advertising, which of course we do have. For 
someone who claims such broad experience of running lists and so on 
it's surprising that you didn't see fit at least to ask first.

In any case, ask or not, the answer is a well-considered No. I don't 
agree with your reasons for starting an advocacy group, I think it's 
contrary to the whole long-established direction of the Biofuel list 
community, and I think you've established no case for requesting 
funding for it, especially mandatory payment as you now stipulate 
rather than voluntary donations and contributions.

So, sorry, this thread ends here. No more discussion. I'll post a 
separate Moderator's message about it.

Start an advocacy group if you like, but do it somewhere else, and 
kindly leave the Biofuel list and Journey to Forever out of it.

Thankyou.

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner

 


-Mike

Jason and Katie wrote:

 Im gonna have to agree with kieth on this one. the best way to eliminate a
 problem with the least repercussion, is to blindside it.
 in our case we need to stay quiet and continue to grow so large, that when
 the government/corporations DO notice their margins are shrinking and they
 try to interfere, we'll just roll them under.
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 12:02 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
 
 
  [snip]
 
 
 Where in the world do you not find illicit stills at work? As with
 all things illicit, attempts to eradicate or control it seldom if
 ever meet with more than 10% success, and even that's short-lived for
 special efforts, 5% is more the norm.
 
  [snip]
 
 
 
 
 
 In a way it reminds me of the Hundred Flowers movement in Mao's
 China, launched as a new opening up of free expression and ideas, a
 lifting of oppression: Let one hundred flowers bloom, thundered
 Mao, let one hundred schools of thought contend! Encouraged, a lot
 of folks decided to speak out and duly stuck their heads up. So Mao
 chopped them off.
 
 So please do be careful what you might precipitate. I don't think
 that biofuellers need a lobby group. I think we should just go on
 doing it, and spreading like a weed. What *they* don't know won't
 hurt them. Until it's too late.
 
 I also think you're making a mistake in proposing to deal with it at
 a national level instead of a global one. THEY'RE national, WE'RE
 global!
 
 Best
 
 Keith
 
 
 
  [snip]
 


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Thomas Kelly]

Good Day to you Kim,
 I am somewhat aware of the campaign against pesticide testing on 
children thanks to Mike Weaver's recent post in which he wrote:
 If you haven't already done so please learn more and send an instant 
letter to the EPA here (public comment period expires Dec.12)
http://www.organicconsumers.org/epa6.cfm;
 The site is impressive. It provides easy to understand wording of areas 
where loopholes exist in the proposal that would allow unscrupulous 
pesticide testing on children. The site also made it easy for me to send a 
message to the appropriate agency. (Not what I thaought of when you 
mentioned sending a postcard).
 I also visited the site you quoted: www.moveon.org .
It was another impressive site; and suspect it is an effective way to 
mobilize opinion. It also includes a way to send a message to the 
appropriate.
I have been called stupid  I prefer ignorant. I didn't know about 
these sites, and thank you ( and Mike) for bringing them to my attention. Do 
you (or anyone else)know of any sites specifically developed to help keep us 
biodiesel homebrewers in the US in the know regarding proposals that might 
impact our rights/abilities to continue brewing?  ...
And to send a message to the appropriate person/agencies should the need 
arise?
Thanks,
Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


 Greetings,
 If you are watching what is happening on the pesticide testing on 
 children,
 forum, yes, we are making a big difference.  In Texas, we now have legal
 raw milk, due to such campaignes.  Move on is an organization that gets 
 the
 people out to write to congress and it is working.  When enough
 people  write letters, the congressmen get worried about re-election.
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim

 At 11:52 AM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
Kim,
  You wrote:
I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to 
 be
a member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the 
membership
is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.

  Has bombarding Washington w. postcards been an effective way of
steering national policy in a direction you are comfortable with?
   Tom
- Original Message -
From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


  Greetings,
  I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to 
  be a
  member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the 
  membership
  is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with. 
  Something
  as
  simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on,
  will
  work.  Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage
  and
  starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people.  What is 
  the
  money for?
  Bright Blessings,
  Kim
 



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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

Moveon.org also solicits funding.  My family has given them money.

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings,
If you are watching what is happening on the pesticide testing on children, 
forum, yes, we are making a big difference.  In Texas, we now have legal 
raw milk, due to such campaignes.  Move on is an organization that gets the 
people out to write to congress and it is working.  When enough 
people  write letters, the congressmen get worried about re-election.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 11:52 AM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
  

Kim,
 You wrote:
   I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be
a member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership
is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.

 Has bombarding Washington w. postcards been an effective way of
steering national policy in a direction you are comfortable with?
  Tom
- Original Message -
From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?




Greetings,
I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a
member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership
is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.  Something
as
simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on,
will
work.  Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage
and
starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people.  What is the
money for?
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
  

All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?

-Mike

Doug Turner wrote:



Hi Mike,

   Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's
bound
to be a cult classic.

   Doug

- Original Message -
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?




  

Nah,

when it comes it'll be from two directions:

The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average
home-brewer
can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by
Big
Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.

Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD
and
trumpet it all over the place.

The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now
and
set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
could stand, divided we'll fall.

When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel

Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver

Joe Street wrote:





I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles
thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else
registered on the site as well.
Comments?

Joe




David Miller wrote:



  

Joe Street wrote:







Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is
dyed.
So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using
taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which
could
be identified by smell

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Kenji James Fuse]

The NBB does do some of this advocacy, although we all know it is
basically a lobby for the soy industry.

I'm more inclined to put my $100 into forming a co-operative association.
It seems more practical and hands-on. It provides very real protection, as
an incorporation, yet offers an alternative to the prevalent
'profit-at-all-costs' corporate directive. It also offers the opportunity
to get to know other biodieselers in your area.

Nevertheless, I'm all for a 'grassroots'-minded group. Isn't that what we
are already?

Kenji


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Garth Kim Travis]

Greetings,
So does JTF, I have given money to them.  There is a difference between a 
voluntary donation and a manditory charge to be a member.  I do support 
many of the organizations that I work with but when I choose to.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 11:16 AM 12/4/2005, you wrote:
Moveon.org also solicits funding.  My family has given them money.

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

 Greetings,
 If you are watching what is happening on the pesticide testing on children,
 forum, yes, we are making a big difference.  In Texas, we now have legal
 raw milk, due to such campaignes.  Move on is an organization that gets the
 people out to write to congress and it is working.  When enough
 people  write letters, the congressmen get worried about re-election.
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 
 At 11:52 AM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
 
 
 Kim,
  You wrote:
I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be
 a member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership
 is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.
 
  Has bombarding Washington w. postcards been an effective way of
 steering national policy in a direction you are comfortable with?
   Tom
 - Original Message -
 From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:17 PM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
 
 
 
 
 Greetings,
 I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a
 member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership
 is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.  Something
 as
 simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on,
 will
 work.  Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage
 and
 starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people.  What is the
 money for?
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 
 At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
 
 
 All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
 advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
 would anyone pay to be a member?
 
 -Mike
 
 Doug Turner wrote:
 
 
 
 Hi Mike,
 
Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's
 bound
 to be a cult classic.
 
Doug
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Nah,
 
 when it comes it'll be from two directions:
 
 The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
 feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
 declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
 require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average
 home-brewer
 can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
 the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by
 Big
 Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.
 
 Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD
 and
 trumpet it all over the place.
 
 The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now
 and
 set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
 it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
 could stand, divided we'll fall.
 
 When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel
 
 Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver
 
 Joe Street wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
 winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
 point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
 prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
 are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
 the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
 for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
 point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
 effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
 disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
 suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
 ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
 in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
 into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
 vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
 is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
 potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
 of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
 vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles
 thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Jason and Katie]

Congrats on the job, but im not changing my stance.
- Original Message -
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


 You guys DO know I work for the Treasury Dept.?

 bob allen wrote:

 
 Jason and Katie wrote:
 
 
 i dont give a fuzzy flying fuck about taxes,
 
 
 
 yeah,  you and leona 'taxes are for little people helmsley
 
 
 
   if they want to stop me and
 
 
 test my fuel for dyes, ill spend my time in the can, and get right back
to
 it when i get home.
 America is a great country... its the idiots at the helm that bother me.
 
 - Original Message -
 From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 12:00 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
 
 
 
 
 There are two types of taxes for Fuel - State and Federal. All
 registered fuel Sellers are required to be registered with the IRS and
 the State they sell fuel in.  They inject a dye in the fuel - Yellow
for
 on road fuel Red for off road. I think all gasoline is taxed and not
 dyed. ( I think the yellow has been discontinued now.) but any way they
 pay a tax on every gallon sold at the pump.  Ethanol and Biodiesel is
 the same as Dinogas and Dinodiesel in the eyes of the State and Federal
 officials.  Some states do encourage alternate fuels by one means or
 another but I havent heard of any tax breaks.  Now in the world of  do
 it yourselfers it is how brave you are to avoid paying those taxes. I
 leave that one there.
 
 If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government
 gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap
 tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may
try.
 
 Jim
 
 Alan Petrillo wrote:
 
 
 
 I caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting
 to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay their fair share of
 highway maintenance costs.
 
 Anyone know anything about this?
 
 
 AP
 
 
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 messages):
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Luke Devitt]

Kieths Right

a softly softly covert approach is the only way to get biodiesiel embeded 
into the fabric of society in the manner in which this comunity has 
envisoned

Another thing not every one wants to be seen as an extreme leftwing group

it gives ammunition to people who would like tom control biodiesiel

Regards

Luke Devitt


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Biofuel Digest, Vol 8, Issue 18
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 02:19:36 -0500

--

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 15:02:53 +0900
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ; format=flowed

Hello Walker and all

 I would be more than willing to pay and be a member of a group like
 this.  It's not going to be long before the government or Exxon
 tries to get in on the act and we need to be prepared.

We've been foreseeing it for six years at least, and we've already
seen such moves in various places. But it's probably too late, the
cat's out of the bag, we're right out of control, IMHO.

  Also at the local level, the worldwide community of biofuels
  homebrewers have developed cheap, effective and safe small-scale
  production methods that produce high-quality fuel and that anyone can
  use. There are now many kinds of independent small-scale local
  operations producing and using millions and millions of gallons of
  biofuels a year, growing fast. Most of it goes right under the
  official radar, nobody calculates it, nobody has any clear idea of
  how much it is or of quite who these people are. But they're forming
  active networks of grassroots-level biofuels producers in many
  countries, and they have the potential to expand very quickly.

-- How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch

In Japan it's illegal to brew your own sake, you're not allowed to
own a still. Yet it's a widespread practice, lots of people in all
walks of life brew their own, it's openly discussed, there are
popular books about it. They don't make a serious hole in the
revenues of them-with-the-licenses so it's generally ignored. What if
they did start to make such a serious hole? Or started brewing large
amounts of fuel ethanol so the fuel majors started taking notice,
who everyone here is so careful not to risk offending? Put them all
in jail? Maybe in the US, but Japan couldn't do that, the damage to
society would be huge, with little or nothing gained from it.

Where in the world do you not find illicit stills at work? As with
all things illicit, attempts to eradicate or control it seldom if
ever meet with more than 10% success, and even that's short-lived for
special efforts, 5% is more the norm.

Prohibition in the US wasn't exactly a resounding success, it just
drove it underground and boosted organised crime. I've read that the
consumption of alcohol went up, by as much as 80% some have said. The
attraction of the illicit.

The heavens forfend that we should ever dream of being anything but
good little law-abiding economic units, uh I mean consumers - sorry,
citizens, but the sort of individuals who'll make their own fuel in
the first place might not see it quite that way. Maybe they'll think
there are really only two laws, first, don't hurt anyone, second,
don't get caught. Shocking, shocking... but can you see them all just
saying yes sir?

There's also a large factor at work here that wasn't a factor in the
Prohibition - the homebrewers are doing good and they're right, and
they know it, while Big Central biofuels doesn't have a future, or
not a leading one anyway. Fuel miles are just as unsustainable as
food miles, same issue. The local little guys will win, all they have
to do is wait it out. Meanwhile they have the moral high ground,
illegal or not. Modern-day Robin Hoods.

The NBB and the EPA have both effectively tried to put a cramp on
homebrewers and small-scale local production but I don't see it being
cramped exactly, all it's doing is growing fast.

Another danger here, that's been discussed before a few times when
people proposed forming associations to represent homebrewers, is
whether it might help to precipitate exactly what we're trying to
avoid. We keep encountering this here in Japan, where various aspects
of biofuels use are unregulated purely because the bureaucracy hasn't
noticed it yet. The last thing to do is to ask them - of course
they'll then regulate it straight away, after consulting the
interests of the big guys first, as is their wont. That's the nature
of bureaucrats. There are other ways of doing it. We quietly made
some arrangements for SVO use with the local authorities that
established a precedent which people in other areas can refer to,
handled on the basis

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Jason and Katie]

Im gonna have to agree with kieth on this one. the best way to eliminate a
problem with the least repercussion, is to blindside it.
in our case we need to stay quiet and continue to grow so large, that when
the government/corporations DO notice their margins are shrinking and they
try to interfere, we'll just roll them under.

- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


 [snip]
 Where in the world do you not find illicit stills at work? As with
 all things illicit, attempts to eradicate or control it seldom if
 ever meet with more than 10% success, and even that's short-lived for
 special efforts, 5% is more the norm.

  [snip]

 In a way it reminds me of the Hundred Flowers movement in Mao's
 China, launched as a new opening up of free expression and ideas, a
 lifting of oppression: Let one hundred flowers bloom, thundered
 Mao, let one hundred schools of thought contend! Encouraged, a lot
 of folks decided to speak out and duly stuck their heads up. So Mao
 chopped them off.

 So please do be careful what you might precipitate. I don't think
 that biofuellers need a lobby group. I think we should just go on
 doing it, and spreading like a weed. What *they* don't know won't
 hurt them. Until it's too late.

 I also think you're making a mistake in proposing to deal with it at
 a national level instead of a global one. THEY'RE national, WE'RE
 global!

 Best

 Keith

 [snip]

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[marilyn]

Keith  wrote:

Prohibition in the US wasn't exactly a resounding success, it just 
drove it underground and boosted organised crime. I've read that the 
consumption of alcohol went up, by as much as 80% some have said. The 
attraction of the illicit.

Some interesting related info: 
In researching the history of alcohol fuel I learned the prohibition movement 
was primarily funded by JD Rockefeller. At the time alcohol was the dominant 
fuel in the US and he had found out that the byproduct of petroleum they had 
been pouring into rivers could be made into gasoline and used for vehicle 
fuels. He funded the Women's Christian Temperance Union to help make 
drinking alcohol illegal. They took their hatchets into bars and broke bottles 
and kegs and caused a big ruckus that led to the Constitutional amendment 
outlawing drinking alcohol. He also funded enough Congressional campaigns 
to get supporting legislation to shift the balance from alcohol fuel toward 
gasoline. By the time the new amendment overruled prohibition, Standard Oil 
had consolidated its market.

During Jimmy Carter's presidency there was a big push for homegrown 
alcohol. We easily got a permit and made it in our barn with our home-built 
equipment. Carter sent people to see how we little guys were doing. His man 
liked our operation so much he hired Jock to take his still to the government 
sponsored alternate energy fairs and teach farmers how to make their own 
stills and fuel. One man came up to him after he said why alcohol was so 
much better than oil and told him, “If you keep talking like that you won't be 
around very long.” Someone told Jock he was from Shell Oil. Maybe he was 
also talking about Carter, who was the biggest alternate energy president we 
ever had. He lasted only one term, partially due to a major oil country, Iran, 
who took American hostages and brokered a deal to release them only after 
Reagan was elected. Another victory for big oil.

Marilyn





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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Thomas Kelly]

Keith,
 I'm not sure that Mike is proposing a national campaign complete with 
television commercials and lobbyists well-funded with $ to grease the 
gears of the political process. It sounds as though he might be willing to 
monitor proposals that could effect BD homebrewers here in the US and keep 
us posted. After all, the original message to this thread was:

  caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting 
to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay their fair share of highway 
maintenance costs.
Anyone know anything about this?

AP

The first sentence has caused a great deal of discussion, but no one has 
answered the question:
 Anyone know anything about this?

 Is there a proposal?
 Who is making the proposal?
 We've discussed taxes on fuel, dying fuel,etc. when the question asks 
about taxing alternate fuel vehicles.
Maybe there is a proposal to tax electric cars based on miles travelled. 
Commercial buses are taxed, after paying fuel tax, additional road use tax 
based on miles travelled in each state.
  The discussions have been great. I've been following them with 
interest. I would love to have someone keeping track of the way things are 
playing out at our national level to keep us informed, prepared, and with 
suggestions for a way to be proactive rather than reactive. This is a global 
list. There is a saying Think global, act local. (or something like that)
 I think it would be beneficial to have a group that monitors national 
and even local proposals, (here in the US) and I would be willing to pay a 
membership fee   or would it be better to say make a donation to the 
cause?
   Tom
- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 1:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


 Hello Walker and all

I would be more than willing to pay and be a member of a group like
this.  It's not going to be long before the government or Exxon
tries to get in on the act and we need to be prepared.

 We've been foreseeing it for six years at least, and we've already
 seen such moves in various places. But it's probably too late, the
 cat's out of the bag, we're right out of control, IMHO.

 Also at the local level, the worldwide community of biofuels
 homebrewers have developed cheap, effective and safe small-scale
 production methods that produce high-quality fuel and that anyone can
 use. There are now many kinds of independent small-scale local
 operations producing and using millions and millions of gallons of
 biofuels a year, growing fast. Most of it goes right under the
 official radar, nobody calculates it, nobody has any clear idea of
 how much it is or of quite who these people are. But they're forming
 active networks of grassroots-level biofuels producers in many
 countries, and they have the potential to expand very quickly.

 -- How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch

 In Japan it's illegal to brew your own sake, you're not allowed to
 own a still. Yet it's a widespread practice, lots of people in all
 walks of life brew their own, it's openly discussed, there are
 popular books about it. They don't make a serious hole in the
 revenues of them-with-the-licenses so it's generally ignored. What if
 they did start to make such a serious hole? Or started brewing large
 amounts of fuel ethanol so the fuel majors started taking notice,
 who everyone here is so careful not to risk offending? Put them all
 in jail? Maybe in the US, but Japan couldn't do that, the damage to
 society would be huge, with little or nothing gained from it.

 Where in the world do you not find illicit stills at work? As with
 all things illicit, attempts to eradicate or control it seldom if
 ever meet with more than 10% success, and even that's short-lived for
 special efforts, 5% is more the norm.

 Prohibition in the US wasn't exactly a resounding success, it just
 drove it underground and boosted organised crime. I've read that the
 consumption of alcohol went up, by as much as 80% some have said. The
 attraction of the illicit.

 The heavens forfend that we should ever dream of being anything but
 good little law-abiding economic units, uh I mean consumers - sorry,
 citizens, but the sort of individuals who'll make their own fuel in
 the first place might not see it quite that way. Maybe they'll think
 there are really only two laws, first, don't hurt anyone, second,
 don't get caught. Shocking, shocking... but can you see them all just
 saying yes sir?

 There's also a large factor at work here that wasn't a factor in the
 Prohibition - the homebrewers are doing good and they're right, and
 they know it, while Big Central biofuels doesn't have a future, or
 not a leading one anyway. Fuel miles are just as unsustainable as
 food miles

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

In a rare event, I am going to disagree with Keith.  I rarely do, 
because we think alike on most things.

1.  I don't think comparing ourselves to moonshiners will prove useful 
to either the BD crowd nor the crowd that would regulate/shut us down.
 It's a useful rhetorical tool for the purposes of debate.
2.  I agree that it is difficult to wipe out illicit activity, but here 
in the US, if they catch you with marijuana, they can seize your car, 
house and land and
take you to jail.  Few of us want that as a model.
3.  If, through inactivity, we allow brewing to become illegal, we will 
be tainted in the eyes of the public.  Some, of course, will see the 
reality of the
situation, but there are still a very large number of people here in the 
US that believe pot makes you crazy.  We don't need that label.
4.  What are we afraid of?  If you are not ashamed of what you are 
doing, you are not ashamed of people knowing about it.
5.  Let's assume the big grease companies do get laws passed making it 
illegal to transport and store WVO.  How many restaurant owners will be 
willing to risk jail or a fine to give us grease?  Not many.  Will we go 
around and break the locks on drums to get grease?
6.  No offense to the notion, but I don't think a tiny bunch of BD's is 
going to roll over the US government and ExxonMobil.  That's magical 
thinking.
7. Moving to Keith's point below, about having your head chopped of:  
One, I agree it would be nuts to start jumping up and down and screaming
don't make laws outlawing BD production.  That's asking for trouble.
8,  But, I do think monitoring which laws are coming up, and if the are 
antithetical to home brewing, responding with well-reasoned, truthful 
information is a good idea.  What it sounds like you are saying that we 
should not participate in our democratic process because someone might 
notice us?  If there are laws coming along, we should respond.  Hiding 
and being quiet doesn't help our cause.
9.  I agree JTF is an incredibly useful device; this idea would not have 
germinated without it.  I also don't doubt that it can help shape and 
inform opinion.  Heck, I spent hours on it myself.  But, I do think 
there is room for a non-NBB advocacy organization. 
10.  JTF has a huge amount of good information, but would it be 
consulted by lawmakers?  I doubt it.  Having constituents show up and 
discuss the issue with you or your staff is very powerful.  If you play 
your cards right, they call you, instead of the NBB for BD info.
11.  Funding.  I'm well aware of the time and dollar commitment 
necessary to just run a list serve.  I personally support one of the 
largest renewable energy
websites and list servs out there.  The pay a nominal hosting fee, but 
it doesn't even begin to cover the work I do.  I do have a mortgage, 
food, clothes,
methanol and lye to buy ;-).  As much as I would like to, I can't afford 
to run it for free.  As for whether or not a project is worthwhile based 
on whether it has funding, that's not a good metric.  You and I both 
know that no one gets rich running listservs or non profits geared 
towards renewable anything.  But someone somewhere does pay for server 
space, DNS and Internet connectivity for JTF.
12.  Getting the word out is a good thing.  There is a lot of bad 
information out there: How often have you heard I'd use BD but it'll 
ruin my filters/fuel line/injectors?
It's too hard to make.  It's illegal.  Can't use it in cold weather and 
so on?
13.  Some progressive governments are using BD - Arlington, Va. requires 
all its heavy equipment to run B20.  This is the sort of positive 
information that would be featured.  We could offer support to listers 
like Greg H, who has the neighbor who is threatening him for home-brewing.
14. We could sponsor teach-ins - teach newbies how to brew safely - this 
would benefit us in the long run as it lessens the chance of someone 
getting blown up.
15.  You're right about the global aspect.  I know we have Canucks on 
the list and I am sure we have Mexicanos tambien.  Perhaps a regional 
approach would be useful.

I would not be surprised if someone gets blindsided, but somehow I don't 
think it will be the the US Gov't or several multi billion dollar 
corporations.

-Mike

Jason and Katie wrote:

Im gonna have to agree with kieth on this one. the best way to eliminate a
problem with the least repercussion, is to blindside it.
in our case we need to stay quiet and continue to grow so large, that when
the government/corporations DO notice their margins are shrinking and they
try to interfere, we'll just roll them under.

- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


 [snip]
  

Where in the world do you not find illicit stills at work? As with
all things illicit, attempts to eradicate or control it seldom if
ever meet

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

Kidding.  You think they'd have me?

Jason and Katie wrote:

Congrats on the job, but im not changing my stance.
- Original Message -
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


  

You guys DO know I work for the Treasury Dept.?

bob allen wrote:



Jason and Katie wrote:


  

i dont give a fuzzy flying fuck about taxes,




yeah,  you and leona 'taxes are for little people helmsley



 if they want to stop me and


  

test my fuel for dyes, ill spend my time in the can, and get right back


to
  

it when i get home.
America is a great country... its the idiots at the helm that bother me.

- Original Message -
From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?






There are two types of taxes for Fuel - State and Federal. All
registered fuel Sellers are required to be registered with the IRS and
the State they sell fuel in.  They inject a dye in the fuel - Yellow
  

for
  

on road fuel Red for off road. I think all gasoline is taxed and not
dyed. ( I think the yellow has been discontinued now.) but any way they
pay a tax on every gallon sold at the pump.  Ethanol and Biodiesel is
the same as Dinogas and Dinodiesel in the eyes of the State and Federal
officials.  Some states do encourage alternate fuels by one means or
another but I havent heard of any tax breaks.  Now in the world of  do
it yourselfers it is how brave you are to avoid paying those taxes. I
leave that one there.

If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government
gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap
tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may
  

try.
  

Jim

Alan Petrillo wrote:



  

I caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting
to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay their fair share of
highway maintenance costs.

Anyone know anything about this?


AP


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

Doesn't surprise me.

We Americans have very little patience for the truth.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Keith  wrote:

Prohibition in the US wasn't exactly a resounding success, it just 
drove it underground and boosted organised crime. I've read that the 
consumption of alcohol went up, by as much as 80% some have said. The 
attraction of the illicit.

Some interesting related info: 
In researching the history of alcohol fuel I learned the prohibition movement 
was primarily funded by JD Rockefeller. At the time alcohol was the dominant 
fuel in the US and he had found out that the byproduct of petroleum they had 
been pouring into rivers could be made into gasoline and used for vehicle 
fuels. He funded the Women's Christian Temperance Union to help make 
drinking alcohol illegal. They took their hatchets into bars and broke bottles 
and kegs and caused a big ruckus that led to the Constitutional amendment 
outlawing drinking alcohol. He also funded enough Congressional campaigns 
to get supporting legislation to shift the balance from alcohol fuel toward 
gasoline. By the time the new amendment overruled prohibition, Standard Oil 
had consolidated its market.

During Jimmy Carter's presidency there was a big push for homegrown 
alcohol. We easily got a permit and made it in our barn with our home-built 
equipment. Carter sent people to see how we little guys were doing. His man 
liked our operation so much he hired Jock to take his still to the government 
sponsored alternate energy fairs and teach farmers how to make their own 
stills and fuel. One man came up to him after he said why alcohol was so 
much better than oil and told him, “If you keep talking like that you won't be 
around very long.” Someone told Jock he was from Shell Oil. Maybe he was 
also talking about Carter, who was the biggest alternate energy president we 
ever had. He lasted only one term, partially due to a major oil country, Iran, 
who took American hostages and brokered a deal to release them only after 
Reagan was elected. Another victory for big oil.

Marilyn





  



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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

Nobody really knows because nobody really monitors the news.  That's 
another thing I would propose:  subscribe to a clipping service and write a
custom Google search to stay on top of what's happening.  Track legislation.

The last thing I would propose is to become another NBB.

I was down in Pittsboro, NC  doing the tour, and there was a person 
there who owned a large trap grease company in the Ga. area.  His 
companion/driver let it slip that the powers that be, the ol boys in 
the legislature were considering some better regulation on WVO.  To 
wit:  making it neccessary to have a state license and the right 
equipment to collect and store it.  Idle chatter?  I don't know.  But 
it didn't sound good.

I'm envisioning something moveon.org, and it there is something on the 
table putting on my monkey suit, rounding up a few of my more literate 
crackpot BD friends and going down to talk to our representatives.  I 
already have a few connection down there so we would at least get a 
hearing.  If it were really critical I would start calling in media 
favors - hope to get our side into the debate.  On the other hand, I 
don't propose raising a stink if all is quiet.

Thomas Kelly wrote:

Keith,
 I'm not sure that Mike is proposing a national campaign complete with 
television commercials and lobbyists well-funded with $ to grease the 
gears of the political process. It sounds as though he might be willing to 
monitor proposals that could effect BD homebrewers here in the US and keep 
us posted. After all, the original message to this thread was:

  caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting 
to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay their fair share of highway 
maintenance costs.
Anyone know anything about this?

AP

The first sentence has caused a great deal of discussion, but no one has 
answered the question:
 Anyone know anything about this?

 Is there a proposal?
 Who is making the proposal?
 We've discussed taxes on fuel, dying fuel,etc. when the question asks 
about taxing alternate fuel vehicles.
Maybe there is a proposal to tax electric cars based on miles travelled. 
Commercial buses are taxed, after paying fuel tax, additional road use tax 
based on miles travelled in each state.
  The discussions have been great. I've been following them with 
interest. I would love to have someone keeping track of the way things are 
playing out at our national level to keep us informed, prepared, and with 
suggestions for a way to be proactive rather than reactive. This is a global 
list. There is a saying Think global, act local. (or something like that)
 I think it would be beneficial to have a group that monitors national 
and even local proposals, (here in the US) and I would be willing to pay a 
membership fee   or would it be better to say make a donation to the 
cause?
   Tom
- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 1:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


  

Hello Walker and all



I would be more than willing to pay and be a member of a group like
this.  It's not going to be long before the government or Exxon
tries to get in on the act and we need to be prepared.
  

We've been foreseeing it for six years at least, and we've already
seen such moves in various places. But it's probably too late, the
cat's out of the bag, we're right out of control, IMHO.



Also at the local level, the worldwide community of biofuels
homebrewers have developed cheap, effective and safe small-scale
production methods that produce high-quality fuel and that anyone can
use. There are now many kinds of independent small-scale local
operations producing and using millions and millions of gallons of
biofuels a year, growing fast. Most of it goes right under the
official radar, nobody calculates it, nobody has any clear idea of
how much it is or of quite who these people are. But they're forming
active networks of grassroots-level biofuels producers in many
countries, and they have the potential to expand very quickly.


-- How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch

In Japan it's illegal to brew your own sake, you're not allowed to
own a still. Yet it's a widespread practice, lots of people in all
walks of life brew their own, it's openly discussed, there are
popular books about it. They don't make a serious hole in the
revenues of them-with-the-licenses so it's generally ignored. What if
they did start to make such a serious hole? Or started brewing large
amounts of fuel ethanol so the fuel majors started taking notice,
who everyone here is so careful not to risk offending? Put them all
in jail? Maybe in the US, but Japan couldn't do that, the damage to
society would be huge, with little or nothing gained

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Thomas Kelly]

Kim,
 You wrote:
   I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be 
a member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership 
is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.

 Has bombarding Washington w. postcards been an effective way of 
steering national policy in a direction you are comfortable with?
  Tom
- Original Message - 
From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


 Greetings,
 I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a
 member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership
 is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.  Something 
 as
 simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on, 
 will
 work.  Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage 
 and
 starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people.  What is the
 money for?
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim

 At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?

-Mike

Doug Turner wrote:

 Hi Mike,
 
 Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's 
  bound
 to be a cult classic.
 
 Doug
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
 
 
 
 
 Nah,
 
 when it comes it'll be from two directions:
 
 The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
 feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
 declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
 require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average 
 home-brewer
 can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
 the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by 
 Big
 Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.
 
 Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD 
 and
 trumpet it all over the place.
 
 The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now 
 and
 set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
 it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
 could stand, divided we'll fall.
 
 When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel
 
 Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver
 
 Joe Street wrote:
 
 
 
 I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
 winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
 point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
 prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
 are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
 the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
 for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
 point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
 effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
 disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
 suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
 ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
 in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
 into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
 vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
 is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
 potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
 of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
 vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles
 thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else
 registered on the site as well.
 Comments?
 
 Joe
 
 
 
 
 David Miller wrote:
 
 
 
 Joe Street wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is 
 dyed.
 So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using
 taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which 
 could
 be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?
 
 
 
 
 I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel
 car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet 
 of
 trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I
 know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the 
 dye)
 in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not 
 worth
 saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of 
 the
 tank

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Robert Carr]

Mike,
It seems the UK is way aheaad of you on this one. To collect WVO over here
you already need to get a waste carriers licence from the Environment
Agency. And if you want to sell so much as a drop of your finished BD, you
need yet another licence! Oh yes, and your oil storage facility must be
fully bunded too.
So good luck with your proposals, I hope you never have the mountain of red
tape we got here.
Bob
- Original Message -
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


 Nobody really knows because nobody really monitors the news.  That's
 another thing I would propose:  subscribe to a clipping service and write
a
 custom Google search to stay on top of what's happening.  Track
legislation.

 The last thing I would propose is to become another NBB.

 I was down in Pittsboro, NC  doing the tour, and there was a person
 there who owned a large trap grease company in the Ga. area.  His
 companion/driver let it slip that the powers that be, the ol boys in
 the legislature were considering some better regulation on WVO.  To
 wit:  making it neccessary to have a state license and the right
 equipment to collect and store it.  Idle chatter?  I don't know.  But
 it didn't sound good.

 I'm envisioning something moveon.org, and it there is something on the
 table putting on my monkey suit, rounding up a few of my more literate
 crackpot BD friends and going down to talk to our representatives.  I
 already have a few connection down there so we would at least get a
 hearing.  If it were really critical I would start calling in media
 favors - hope to get our side into the debate.  On the other hand, I
 don't propose raising a stink if all is quiet.

 Thomas Kelly wrote:

 Keith,
  I'm not sure that Mike is proposing a national campaign complete
with
 television commercials and lobbyists well-funded with $ to grease the
 gears of the political process. It sounds as though he might be willing
to
 monitor proposals that could effect BD homebrewers here in the US and
keep
 us posted. After all, the original message to this thread was:
 
   caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint
wanting
 to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay their fair share of
highway
 maintenance costs.
 Anyone know anything about this?
 
 AP
 
 The first sentence has caused a great deal of discussion, but no one
has
 answered the question:
  Anyone know anything about this?
 
  Is there a proposal?
  Who is making the proposal?
  We've discussed taxes on fuel, dying fuel,etc. when the question
asks
 about taxing alternate fuel vehicles.
 Maybe there is a proposal to tax electric cars based on miles travelled.
 Commercial buses are taxed, after paying fuel tax, additional road use
tax
 based on miles travelled in each state.
   The discussions have been great. I've been following them with
 interest. I would love to have someone keeping track of the way things
are
 playing out at our national level to keep us informed, prepared, and with
 suggestions for a way to be proactive rather than reactive. This is a
global
 list. There is a saying Think global, act local. (or something like
that)
  I think it would be beneficial to have a group that monitors
national
 and even local proposals, (here in the US) and I would be willing to pay
a
 membership fee   or would it be better to say make a donation to
the
 cause?
Tom
 - Original Message -
 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 1:02 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
 
 
 
 
 Hello Walker and all
 
 
 
 I would be more than willing to pay and be a member of a group like
 this.  It's not going to be long before the government or Exxon
 tries to get in on the act and we need to be prepared.
 
 
 We've been foreseeing it for six years at least, and we've already
 seen such moves in various places. But it's probably too late, the
 cat's out of the bag, we're right out of control, IMHO.
 
 
 
 Also at the local level, the worldwide community of biofuels
 homebrewers have developed cheap, effective and safe small-scale
 production methods that produce high-quality fuel and that anyone can
 use. There are now many kinds of independent small-scale local
 operations producing and using millions and millions of gallons of
 biofuels a year, growing fast. Most of it goes right under the
 official radar, nobody calculates it, nobody has any clear idea of
 how much it is or of quite who these people are. But they're forming
 active networks of grassroots-level biofuels producers in many
 countries, and they have the potential to expand very quickly.
 
 
 -- How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Garth Kim Travis]

Greetings,
I am sorry you took offence, but many good grass roots based things have 
happened without someone getting a full time paycheck out of it.  For 
starters, we have legal raw milk dairies in Texas.  If you are planning on 
creating yourself a job with everyone's funds, please have the honesty to 
say so and tell us what you consider a reasonsable salary.  A list of 
qualification would also be appreciated.  I am not sure that anyone who 
snipes at honest questions is what we need to front such a movement, but I 
may have caught you on a bad day.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:22 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
Jeez, you're right!  How simple!  I wanted the money for myself!

Let's see, I am sure we can get someone to head down to Washington DC
and lobby to counter the well-paid lobbyists of the Big Oil companies!
And just anyone will do, they don't need to know anything or anyone.
Exxon is wasting is money with their lobbyists, as I am sure you can
tell by the last energy bill.
There really is no point in actually meeting with the members of
congress face to face and explain to them and their staff what's going
on when
we can bombard Washington with postcards!  And I will get right on
that free phone from Verizon, so that when people or the media or
congress calls
there will be an actual person to answer it.  May I forward the calls to
you, and can you promise to be available pretty much 9-5?  Thanks!
I've also been innundated with offers of free domain, web and email
hosting, none of which takes even a second to manage.  It just runs itself!
Actually, just in the time I've been writing this, several well-reasoned
articles and BD safety guidlines have written themselves, edited
themselves, and hopped right up on the website.  Which, by the way, is
not down due to technical problems, hackers or too many hits.  But I
guess somehow people will just find the Yahoo group if they are looking
for BD info.

There are always people like you assuming everyone else will shoulder
the financial burden.  I've been consulting in and working the
non-profit area for 20 years.
I know what happens to an organization when there is no funding.  It dies.







Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

 Greetings,
 I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a
 member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership
 is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.  Something as
 simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on, will
 work.  Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage and
 starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people.  What is the
 money for?
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 
 At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
 
 
 All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
 advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
 would anyone pay to be a member?
 
 -Mike
 
 Doug Turner wrote:
 
 
 
 Hi Mike,
 
Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's bound
 to be a cult classic.
 
Doug
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Nah,
 
 when it comes it'll be from two directions:
 
 The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
 feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
 declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
 require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer
 can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
 the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by Big
 Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.
 
 Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and
 trumpet it all over the place.
 
 The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and
 set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
 it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
 could stand, divided we'll fall.
 
 When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel
 
 Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver
 
 Joe Street wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
 winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
 point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
 prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
 are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
 the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
 for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
 point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
 effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
 disappointed

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[E. C.]

Mike;

I was going to jump on this thread DBY, but got busy
-- Keith has already said most of what i was
thinking.  Only addng:
Big Oil is already acutely aware, as is the rest of
the corporatocracy -- but the grass-roots movement is
already almost at the tipping point,  BO is already
irrelevant  they know it (hence the gluttanous rush
to control  profit while they can).  When We The
People reach critical mass (world-wide, as Keith
points out) on sustainability, the paradigm will
shift... IF we're lucky  plucky  persistent 
willing to risk the perils of Civil Disobedience (as
voiced by others here), some of Y'All may survive into
that paradigm,  be able to pass a future to your
children  G'chidren.  I can wish (but i'm close to 70
-- so I doubt I'll be here for it, which saddens me)
AND i can do all i can to help -- Humanity is a worthy
experiment, in spite of all the flaws built in.  Keep
THAT faith,  emulate the dung-beetle, with your eyes
on the horizon.

Peace  Love
E. Allen 

--- Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Nobody really knows because nobody really monitors
 the news.  That's 
 another thing I would propose:  subscribe to a
 clipping service and write a
 custom Google search to stay on top of what's
 happening.  Track legislation.
 
 The last thing I would propose is to become another
 NBB.
 
 I was down in Pittsboro, NC  doing the tour, and
 there was a person 
 there who owned a large trap grease company in the
 Ga. area.  His 
 companion/driver let it slip that the powers that
 be, the ol boys in 
 the legislature were considering some better
 regulation on WVO.  To 
 wit:  making it neccessary to have a state license
 and the right 
 equipment to collect and store it.  Idle chatter? 
 I don't know.  But 
 it didn't sound good.
 
 I'm envisioning something moveon.org, and it there
 is something on the 
 table putting on my monkey suit, rounding up a few
 of my more literate 
 crackpot BD friends and going down to talk to our
 representatives.  I 
 already have a few connection down there so we would
 at least get a 
 hearing.  If it were really critical I would start
 calling in media 
 favors - hope to get our side into the debate.  On
 the other hand, I 
 don't propose raising a stink if all is quiet.
 
 Thomas Kelly wrote:
 
 Keith,
  I'm not sure that Mike is proposing a national
 campaign complete with 
 television commercials and lobbyists well-funded
 with $ to grease the 
 gears of the political process. It sounds as
 though he might be willing to 
 monitor proposals that could effect BD homebrewers
 here in the US and keep 
 us posted. After all, the original message to this
 thread was:
 
   caught a piece of something on the news
 about the US Guvmint wanting 
 to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay
 their fair share of highway 
 maintenance costs.
 Anyone know anything about this?
 
 AP
 
 The first sentence has caused a great deal of
 discussion, but no one has 
 answered the question:
  Anyone know anything about this?
 
  Is there a proposal?
  Who is making the proposal?
  We've discussed taxes on fuel, dying fuel,etc.
 when the question asks 
 about taxing alternate fuel vehicles.
 Maybe there is a proposal to tax electric cars
 based on miles travelled. 
 Commercial buses are taxed, after paying fuel tax,
 additional road use tax 
 based on miles travelled in each state.
   The discussions have been great. I've been
 following them with 
 interest. I would love to have someone keeping
 track of the way things are 
 playing out at our national level to keep us
 informed, prepared, and with 
 suggestions for a way to be proactive rather than
 reactive. This is a global 
 list. There is a saying Think global, act local.
 (or something like that)
  I think it would be beneficial to have a group
 that monitors national 
 and even local proposals, (here in the US) and I
 would be willing to pay a 
 membership fee   or would it be better to say
 make a donation to the 
 cause?
Tom
 - Original Message - 
 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 1:02 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate
 fuel vehicles?
 
 
   
 
 Hello Walker and all
 
 
 
 I would be more than willing to pay and be a
 member of a group like
 this.  It's not going to be long before the
 government or Exxon
 tries to get in on the act and we need to be
 prepared.
   
 
 We've been foreseeing it for six years at least,
 and we've already
 seen such moves in various places. But it's
 probably too late, the
 cat's out of the bag, we're right out of control,
 IMHO.
 
 
 
 Also at the local level, the worldwide community
 of biofuels
 homebrewers have developed cheap, effective and
 safe small-scale
 production methods that produce high-quality
 fuel and that anyone can
 use. There are now many kinds of independent
 small

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Garth Kim Travis]

Greetings,
If you are watching what is happening on the pesticide testing on children, 
forum, yes, we are making a big difference.  In Texas, we now have legal 
raw milk, due to such campaignes.  Move on is an organization that gets the 
people out to write to congress and it is working.  When enough 
people  write letters, the congressmen get worried about re-election.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 11:52 AM 12/3/2005, you wrote:
Kim,
  You wrote:
I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be
a member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership
is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.

  Has bombarding Washington w. postcards been an effective way of
steering national policy in a direction you are comfortable with?
   Tom
- Original Message -
From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


  Greetings,
  I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a
  member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership
  is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.  Something
  as
  simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on,
  will
  work.  Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage
  and
  starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people.  What is the
  money for?
  Bright Blessings,
  Kim
 
  At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
 All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
 advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
 would anyone pay to be a member?
 
 -Mike
 
 Doug Turner wrote:
 
  Hi Mike,
  
  Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's
   bound
  to be a cult classic.
  
  Doug
  
  - Original Message -
  From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
  
  
  
  
  Nah,
  
  when it comes it'll be from two directions:
  
  The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
  feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
  declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
  require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average
  home-brewer
  can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
  the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by
  Big
  Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.
  
  Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD
  and
  trumpet it all over the place.
  
  The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now
  and
  set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
  it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
  could stand, divided we'll fall.
  
  When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel
  
  Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver
  
  Joe Street wrote:
  
  
  
  I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
  winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
  point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
  prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
  are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
  the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
  for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
  point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
  effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
  disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
  suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
  ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
  in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
  into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
  vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
  is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
  potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
  of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
  vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles
  thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else
  registered on the site as well.
  Comments?
  
  Joe
  
  
  
  
  David Miller wrote:
  
  
  
  Joe Street wrote:
  
  
  
  
  
  Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is
  dyed.
  So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using
  taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

At 50 mpg why bother?

David Miller wrote:

Joe Street wrote:

  

Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed. 
So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using 
taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could 
be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?




I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel 
car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of 
trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I 
know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye) 
in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth 
saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the 
tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I 
have the reserve though.

Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money 
in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.

--- David

  

Joe

David Miller wrote:



Joe Street wrote:

 

  

Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!
   



Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO, 
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of 
saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.


--- David

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Joe Street]

I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
winds of change blow cold on the home brew community? Suppose at some
point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
prevent you from making your own fuel. I know that collectively there
are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around the
planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account for a
huge influence in any particular country or region at this point. I'm
sure any of us who have invested the time, money and effort to be doing
what we are doing will be more than just disappointed if legislation is
enacted in favor of big energy suppliers to the detriment of our
sustainability and environmental ideals. But what can we do though? I
feel I am very fortunate because in my case, since I work at a
university which supports my research into alternative energy
solutions, I can claim I am driving a research vehicle which affords me
quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue is concerned. I am just
wondering if a possible solution to this potential problem might be for
people like myself to create some sort of registry so that I can claim
not only that I drive a research vehicle but that it is part of a
worldwide fleet of such vehicles thereby strengthening not only my case
but also that of everyone else registered on the site as well.
Comments?

Joe




David Miller wrote:

  Joe Street wrote:

  
  
Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed. 
So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using 
taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could 
be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?

  
  

I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel 
car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of 
trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I 
know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye) 
in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth 
saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the 
tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I 
have the reserve though.

Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money 
in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.

--- David

  
  
Joe

David Miller wrote:



  Joe Street wrote:

 

  
  
Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!
   


  
  
Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO, 
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of 
saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.


--- David

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

Nah,

when it comes it'll be from two directions:

The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start 
feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that 
declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will 
require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer 
can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get 
the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by Big 
Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.

Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and 
trumpet it all over the place.

The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and 
set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of 
it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we 
could stand, divided we'll fall.

When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel

Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver

Joe Street wrote:

 I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the 
 winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some 
 point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or 
 prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there 
 are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around 
 the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account 
 for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this 
 point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and 
 effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just 
 disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy 
 suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental 
 ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because 
 in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research 
 into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research 
 vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue 
 is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this 
 potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort 
 of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research 
 vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles 
 thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else 
 registered on the site as well.
 Comments?

 Joe




 David Miller wrote:

Joe Street wrote:

  

Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed. 
So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using 
taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could 
be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?




I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel 
car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of 
trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I 
know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye) 
in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth 
saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the 
tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I 
have the reserve though.

Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money 
in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.

--- David

  

Joe

David Miller wrote:



Joe Street wrote:

 

  

Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!
   



Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO, 
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of 
saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.


--- David

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Doug Turner]

Hi Mike,

Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's bound
to be a cult classic.

Doug

- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


 Nah,

 when it comes it'll be from two directions:

 The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
 feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
 declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
 require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer
 can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
 the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by Big
 Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.

 Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and
 trumpet it all over the place.

 The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and
 set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
 it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
 could stand, divided we'll fall.

 When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel

 Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver

 Joe Street wrote:

  I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
  winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
  point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
  prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
  are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
  the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
  for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
  point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
  effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
  disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
  suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
  ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
  in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
  into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
  vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
  is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
  potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
  of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
  vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles
  thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else
  registered on the site as well.
  Comments?
 
  Joe
 
 
 
 
  David Miller wrote:
 
 Joe Street wrote:
 
 
 
 Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed.
 So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using
 taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could
 be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?
 
 
 
 
 I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel
 car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of
 trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I
 know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye)
 in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth
 saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the
 tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I
 have the reserve though.
 
 Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money
 in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.
 
 --- David
 
 
 
 Joe
 
 David Miller wrote:
 
 
 
 Joe Street wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!
 
 
 
 
 Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO,
 K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of
 saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.
 
 
 --- David
 
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messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an 
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?

-Mike

Doug Turner wrote:

Hi Mike,

Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's bound
to be a cult classic.

Doug

- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


  

Nah,

when it comes it'll be from two directions:

The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer
can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by Big
Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.

Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and
trumpet it all over the place.

The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and
set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
could stand, divided we'll fall.

When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel

Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver

Joe Street wrote:



I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles
thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else
registered on the site as well.
Comments?

Joe




David Miller wrote:

  

Joe Street wrote:





Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed.
So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using
taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could
be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?


  

I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel
car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of
trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I
know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye)
in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth
saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the
tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I
have the reserve though.

Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money
in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.

--- David





Joe

David Miller wrote:



  

Joe Street wrote:







Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!




  

Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO,
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of
saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.


--- David

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Joe Street]

Well after all I've invested into this endeavour the car, the
processor, the time, effort, my domain name, not to mention the pain I
have endured ( every time I read one of Mike's messages it seems my
eyeballs roll further and further back into my head - it hurts) it
seems a forgone conclusion that I would join an advocacy group.

Joe

Mike Weaver wrote:

  All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an 
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?

-Mike

Doug Turner wrote:

  
  
Hi Mike,

   Just waiting for the movie, "Attack of the Grease People."  It's bound
to be a cult classic.

   Doug

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


 



  Nah,

when it comes it'll be from two directions:

The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer
can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by Big
Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.

Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and
trumpet it all over the place.

The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and
set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
could stand, divided we'll fall.

"When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel"

Mike "been living in Washington DC for too long" Weaver

Joe Street wrote:

   

  
  
I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles
thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else
registered on the site as well.
Comments?

Joe




David Miller wrote:

 



  Joe Street wrote:



   

  
  
Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed.
So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using
taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could
be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?


 


  
  I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel
car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of
trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I
know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye)
in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth
saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the
tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I
have the reserve though.

Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money
in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.

--- David



   

  
  
Joe

David Miller wrote:



 



  Joe Street wrote:





   

  
  
Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!




 


  
  Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO,
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of
saying that you didn't

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Thomas Kelly]

Mike,
 Are you offering to play a role in organizing such an advocacy group? I 
think there would be great interest.
I would pay to be a member.
 Tom
- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


 All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
 advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
 would anyone pay to be a member?

 -Mike




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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Kurt Nolte]

On 12/2/05, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of anadvocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantlywould anyone pay to be a member?

I'd pay. If only to stick it to the man who's trying to pull the strings of the world, IE corporations. 

-Kurt

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[David Miller]

Mike Weaver wrote:

All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an 
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?
  


I would pay something just to support the cause.  Probably in the 
$50-100 range. 

--- David

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

I'm very serious.  I would be willing to start it - my real business is 
to provide consulting to non-profits - I know how they work and I know 
how Capital Hill works.
The primarly goal is to keep biodiesel-brewing legal and safe.
I envision a DC-based non-profit that would keep tabs on legal issues, 
what big oil and big bd are up to, and lobby federal, state and local 
governments on behalf of BD. users.
I also think classes and training would be a good idea.
Names?  More ideas?

-Mike




Kurt Nolte wrote:

 On 12/2/05, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
 advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
 would anyone pay to be a member?



 I'd pay. If only to stick it to the man who's trying to pull the 
 strings of the world, IE corporations.

 -Kurt




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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Garth Kim Travis]

Greetings,
I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a 
member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership 
is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.  Something as 
simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on, will 
work.  Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage and 
starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people.  What is the 
money for?
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?

-Mike

Doug Turner wrote:

 Hi Mike,
 
 Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's bound
 to be a cult classic.
 
 Doug
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
 
 
 
 
 Nah,
 
 when it comes it'll be from two directions:
 
 The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
 feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
 declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
 require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer
 can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
 the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by Big
 Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.
 
 Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and
 trumpet it all over the place.
 
 The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and
 set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
 it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
 could stand, divided we'll fall.
 
 When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel
 
 Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver
 
 Joe Street wrote:
 
 
 
 I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
 winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
 point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
 prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
 are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
 the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
 for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
 point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
 effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
 disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
 suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
 ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
 in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
 into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
 vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
 is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
 potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
 of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
 vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles
 thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else
 registered on the site as well.
 Comments?
 
 Joe
 
 
 
 
 David Miller wrote:
 
 
 
 Joe Street wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed.
 So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using
 taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could
 be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?
 
 
 
 
 I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel
 car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of
 trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I
 know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye)
 in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth
 saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the
 tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I
 have the reserve though.
 
 Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money
 in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.
 
 --- David
 
 
 
 
 
 Joe
 
 David Miller wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 Joe Street wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO,
 K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of
 saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.
 
 
 --- David
 
 ___
 Biofuel mailing

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Walker Bennett]

I would be more than willing to pay and be a member of a group like this. It's not going to be long before the government or Exxon tries to get in on the act and we need to be prepared.Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I'm very serious. I would be willing to start it - my real business is to provide consulting to non-profits - I know how they work and I know how Capital Hill works.The primarly goal is to keep biodiesel-brewing legal and safe.I envision a DC-based non-profit that would keep tabs on legal issues, what big oil and big bd are up to, and lobby federal, state and local governments on behalf of BD. users.I also think classes and training would be a good idea.Names? More ideas?-MikeKurt Nolte wrote: On 12/2/05, *Mike Weaver* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote: All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly would anyone pay to be a member? I'd pay. If only to "stick it to the man" who's trying to pull the  strings of the world, IE corporations. -Kurt___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Walker  (Ben W. Gardner)___
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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

Jeez, you're right!  How simple!  I wanted the money for myself!

Let's see, I am sure we can get someone to head down to Washington DC 
and lobby to counter the well-paid lobbyists of the Big Oil companies!  
And just anyone will do, they don't need to know anything or anyone.  
Exxon is wasting is money with their lobbyists, as I am sure you can 
tell by the last energy bill.
There really is no point in actually meeting with the members of 
congress face to face and explain to them and their staff what's going 
on when
we can bombard Washington with postcards!  And I will get right on 
that free phone from Verizon, so that when people or the media or 
congress calls
there will be an actual person to answer it.  May I forward the calls to 
you, and can you promise to be available pretty much 9-5?  Thanks!
I've also been innundated with offers of free domain, web and email 
hosting, none of which takes even a second to manage.  It just runs itself!
Actually, just in the time I've been writing this, several well-reasoned 
articles and BD safety guidlines have written themselves, edited 
themselves, and hopped right up on the website.  Which, by the way, is 
not down due to technical problems, hackers or too many hits.  But I 
guess somehow people will just find the Yahoo group if they are looking 
for BD info.

There are always people like you assuming everyone else will shoulder 
the financial burden.  I've been consulting in and working the 
non-profit area for 20 years.
I know what happens to an organization when there is no funding.  It dies.







Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings,
I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a 
member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership 
is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.  Something as 
simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on, will 
work.  Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage and 
starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people.  What is the 
money for?
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
  

All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?

-Mike

Doug Turner wrote:



Hi Mike,

   Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's bound
to be a cult classic.

   Doug

- Original Message -
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?




  

Nah,

when it comes it'll be from two directions:

The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer
can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by Big
Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.

Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and
trumpet it all over the place.

The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and
set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
could stand, divided we'll fall.

When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel

Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver

Joe Street wrote:





I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[William Adams]

Mike (W that is),

My adventuresome (perhaps foolish) persona would answer,  Yes and , Yes. 
But my cautious persona says, Yes, if an in depth discussion of pros and 
cons indicates real merit; and Yes, if Q1 is yes and the tariff is not 
beyond my means.

Others have mentioned the possibility of the US corporate-controlled 
legislature legally shutting down private biofuellers. If an advocacy group 
can successfully withstand that onslaught I am with it.

Bob (A. in OR)
- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


 All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
 advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
 would anyone pay to be a member?

 -Mike

 Doug Turner wrote:

Hi Mike,

Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's bound
to be a cult classic.

Doug

- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?




Nah,

when it comes it'll be from two directions:

The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer
can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by Big
Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.

Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and
trumpet it all over the place.

The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and
set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
could stand, divided we'll fall.

When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel

Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver

Joe Street wrote:



I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles
thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else
registered on the site as well.
Comments?

Joe




David Miller wrote:



Joe Street wrote:





Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed.
So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using
taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could
be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?




I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel
car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of
trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I
know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the 
dye)
in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not 
worth
saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the
tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I
have the reserve though.

Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money
in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.

--- David





Joe

David Miller wrote:





Joe Street wrote:







Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!






Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO,
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of
saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.


--- David

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Keith Addison]

Hello Mike, Kim and all

Jeez, you're right!  How simple!  I wanted the money for myself!

Let's see, I am sure we can get someone to head down to Washington DC
and lobby to counter the well-paid lobbyists of the Big Oil companies!
And just anyone will do, they don't need to know anything or anyone.
Exxon is wasting is money with their lobbyists, as I am sure you can
tell by the last energy bill.
There really is no point in actually meeting with the members of
congress face to face and explain to them and their staff what's going
on when
we can bombard Washington with postcards!  And I will get right on
that free phone from Verizon, so that when people or the media or
congress calls
there will be an actual person to answer it.  May I forward the calls to
you, and can you promise to be available pretty much 9-5?  Thanks!
I've also been innundated with offers of free domain, web and email
hosting, none of which takes even a second to manage.  It just runs itself!
Actually, just in the time I've been writing this, several well-reasoned
articles and BD safety guidlines have written themselves, edited
themselves, and hopped right up on the website.  Which, by the way, is
not down due to technical problems, hackers or too many hits.  But I
guess somehow people will just find the Yahoo group if they are looking
for BD info.

There are always people like you assuming everyone else will shoulder
the financial burden.  I've been consulting in and working the
non-profit area for 20 years.
I know what happens to an organization when there is no funding.  It dies.

Journey to Forever hasn't died, it's been growing steadily for the 
last eight years, with no funding whatsoever. It was clear right from 
the early days that this was the only way to do it without the 
project losing it's independence and its direction. You quickly end 
up being owned, and then nobody gets anything (including the 
owners). Not just conjecture, it tried to happen a few times. It's 
a killer way of doing things, but we're now at long last reaching a 
position where we can negotiate, not beg - we've got what they want 
and they've got what we want, they know it and so do we, so no need 
to jostle, we can collaborate.

The Biofuel list is also an organisation, a dynamic and effective 
one. No funding. Lots of work for nothing and nobody really 
appreciates it? Sure, so what's new? Is that how you calculate 
whether a project's worth it or not?

By the way, please don't presume I'm naive about this, I've been 
involved in literally hundreds of funding issues at all levels (I 
think $100 million was the biggest one).

Best wishes

Keith


Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

 Greetings,
 I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a
 member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership
 is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.  Something as
 simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on, will
 work.  Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage and
 starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people.  What is the
 money for?
 Bright Blessings,
 Kim
 
 At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
 
 
 All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
 advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
 would anyone pay to be a member?
 
 -Mike
 
 Doug Turner wrote:
 
 
 
 Hi Mike,
 
Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's bound
 to be a cult classic.
 
Doug
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Nah,
 
 when it comes it'll be from two directions:
 
 The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
 feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
 declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
 require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer
 can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
 the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by Big
 Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.
 
 Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and
 trumpet it all over the place.
 
 The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and
 set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
 it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
 could stand, divided we'll fall.
 
 When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel
 
 Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver
 
 Joe Street wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
 winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
 point your government decides

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Keith Addison]

Hello Walker and all

I would be more than willing to pay and be a member of a group like 
this.  It's not going to be long before the government or Exxon 
tries to get in on the act and we need to be prepared.

We've been foreseeing it for six years at least, and we've already 
seen such moves in various places. But it's probably too late, the 
cat's out of the bag, we're right out of control, IMHO.

 Also at the local level, the worldwide community of biofuels
 homebrewers have developed cheap, effective and safe small-scale
 production methods that produce high-quality fuel and that anyone can
 use. There are now many kinds of independent small-scale local
 operations producing and using millions and millions of gallons of
 biofuels a year, growing fast. Most of it goes right under the
 official radar, nobody calculates it, nobody has any clear idea of
 how much it is or of quite who these people are. But they're forming
 active networks of grassroots-level biofuels producers in many
 countries, and they have the potential to expand very quickly.

-- How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch

In Japan it's illegal to brew your own sake, you're not allowed to 
own a still. Yet it's a widespread practice, lots of people in all 
walks of life brew their own, it's openly discussed, there are 
popular books about it. They don't make a serious hole in the 
revenues of them-with-the-licenses so it's generally ignored. What if 
they did start to make such a serious hole? Or started brewing large 
amounts of fuel ethanol so the fuel majors started taking notice, 
who everyone here is so careful not to risk offending? Put them all 
in jail? Maybe in the US, but Japan couldn't do that, the damage to 
society would be huge, with little or nothing gained from it.

Where in the world do you not find illicit stills at work? As with 
all things illicit, attempts to eradicate or control it seldom if 
ever meet with more than 10% success, and even that's short-lived for 
special efforts, 5% is more the norm.

Prohibition in the US wasn't exactly a resounding success, it just 
drove it underground and boosted organised crime. I've read that the 
consumption of alcohol went up, by as much as 80% some have said. The 
attraction of the illicit.

The heavens forfend that we should ever dream of being anything but 
good little law-abiding economic units, uh I mean consumers - sorry, 
citizens, but the sort of individuals who'll make their own fuel in 
the first place might not see it quite that way. Maybe they'll think 
there are really only two laws, first, don't hurt anyone, second, 
don't get caught. Shocking, shocking... but can you see them all just 
saying yes sir?

There's also a large factor at work here that wasn't a factor in the 
Prohibition - the homebrewers are doing good and they're right, and 
they know it, while Big Central biofuels doesn't have a future, or 
not a leading one anyway. Fuel miles are just as unsustainable as 
food miles, same issue. The local little guys will win, all they have 
to do is wait it out. Meanwhile they have the moral high ground, 
illegal or not. Modern-day Robin Hoods.

The NBB and the EPA have both effectively tried to put a cramp on 
homebrewers and small-scale local production but I don't see it being 
cramped exactly, all it's doing is growing fast.

Another danger here, that's been discussed before a few times when 
people proposed forming associations to represent homebrewers, is 
whether it might help to precipitate exactly what we're trying to 
avoid. We keep encountering this here in Japan, where various aspects 
of biofuels use are unregulated purely because the bureaucracy hasn't 
noticed it yet. The last thing to do is to ask them - of course 
they'll then regulate it straight away, after consulting the 
interests of the big guys first, as is their wont. That's the nature 
of bureaucrats. There are other ways of doing it. We quietly made 
some arrangements for SVO use with the local authorities that 
established a precedent which people in other areas can refer to, 
handled on the basis that it makes life easier for the local 
officials.

In a way it reminds me of the Hundred Flowers movement in Mao's 
China, launched as a new opening up of free expression and ideas, a 
lifting of oppression: Let one hundred flowers bloom, thundered 
Mao, let one hundred schools of thought contend! Encouraged, a lot 
of folks decided to speak out and duly stuck their heads up. So Mao 
chopped them off.

So please do be careful what you might precipitate. I don't think 
that biofuellers need a lobby group. I think we should just go on 
doing it, and spreading like a weed. What *they* don't know won't 
hurt them. Until it's too late.

I also think you're making a mistake in proposing to deal with it at 
a national level instead of a global one. THEY'RE national, WE'RE 
global!

Best

Keith


I would be more than willing to pay 

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

Pysch.

bob allen wrote:


Jason and Katie wrote:
  

i dont give a fuzzy flying fuck about taxes,



yeah,  you and leona 'taxes are for little people helmsley



  if they want to stop me and
  

test my fuel for dyes, ill spend my time in the can, and get right back to
it when i get home.
America is a great country... its the idiots at the helm that bother me.

- Original Message -
From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?




There are two types of taxes for Fuel - State and Federal. All
registered fuel Sellers are required to be registered with the IRS and
the State they sell fuel in.  They inject a dye in the fuel - Yellow for
on road fuel Red for off road. I think all gasoline is taxed and not
dyed. ( I think the yellow has been discontinued now.) but any way they
pay a tax on every gallon sold at the pump.  Ethanol and Biodiesel is
the same as Dinogas and Dinodiesel in the eyes of the State and Federal
officials.  Some states do encourage alternate fuels by one means or
another but I havent heard of any tax breaks.  Now in the world of  do
it yourselfers it is how brave you are to avoid paying those taxes. I
leave that one there.

If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government
gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap
tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may try.

Jim

Alan Petrillo wrote:

  

I caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting
to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay their fair share of
highway maintenance costs.

Anyone know anything about this?


AP


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Joe Street]

Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!

Mike Weaver wrote:

  You guys DO know I work for the Treasury Dept.?

bob allen wrote:

  
  
Jason and Katie wrote:
 



  i dont give a fuzzy flying fuck about taxes,
   

  

yeah,  you and leona 'taxes are for little people" helmsley



 if they want to stop me and
 



  test my fuel for dyes, ill spend my time in the can, and get right back to
it when i get home.
America is a great country... its the idiots at the helm that bother me.

- Original Message -
From: "JJJN" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


   

  
  
There are two types of taxes for Fuel - State and Federal. All
registered fuel Sellers are required to be registered with the IRS and
the State they sell fuel in.  They inject a dye in the fuel - Yellow for
on road fuel Red for off road. I think all gasoline is taxed and not
dyed. ( I think the yellow has been discontinued now.) but any way they
pay a tax on every gallon sold at the pump.  Ethanol and Biodiesel is
the same as Dinogas and Dinodiesel in the eyes of the State and Federal
officials.  Some states do encourage alternate fuels by one means or
another but I havent heard of any tax breaks.  Now in the world of  do
it yourselfers it is how brave you are to avoid paying those taxes. I
leave that one there.

If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government
gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap
tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may try.

Jim

Alan Petrillo wrote:

 



  I caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting
to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can "pay their fair share of
highway maintenance costs."

Anyone know anything about this?


AP


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

You guys DO know I work for the Treasury Dept.?

bob allen wrote:


Jason and Katie wrote:
  

i dont give a fuzzy flying fuck about taxes,



yeah,  you and leona 'taxes are for little people helmsley



  if they want to stop me and
  

test my fuel for dyes, ill spend my time in the can, and get right back to
it when i get home.
America is a great country... its the idiots at the helm that bother me.

- Original Message -
From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?




There are two types of taxes for Fuel - State and Federal. All
registered fuel Sellers are required to be registered with the IRS and
the State they sell fuel in.  They inject a dye in the fuel - Yellow for
on road fuel Red for off road. I think all gasoline is taxed and not
dyed. ( I think the yellow has been discontinued now.) but any way they
pay a tax on every gallon sold at the pump.  Ethanol and Biodiesel is
the same as Dinogas and Dinodiesel in the eyes of the State and Federal
officials.  Some states do encourage alternate fuels by one means or
another but I havent heard of any tax breaks.  Now in the world of  do
it yourselfers it is how brave you are to avoid paying those taxes. I
leave that one there.

If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government
gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap
tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may try.

Jim

Alan Petrillo wrote:

  

I caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting
to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay their fair share of
highway maintenance costs.

Anyone know anything about this?


AP


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[David Miller]

Joe Street wrote:

 Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!


Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO, 
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of 
saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.


--- David

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Joe Street]

Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed.
So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using
taxed fuel or home brew anyways? (assuming it is not B100 which could
be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?

Joe

David Miller wrote:

  Joe Street wrote:

  
  
Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!

  
  

Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO, 
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of 
saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.


--- David

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Thomas Kelly]

Am I wrong?
 There is currently no 
federal tax on biodiesel made for personal use in the US.
 Biodiesel sold at the 400 
or so retail outlets in the US is taxed, but not dyed.
 There is currently no way 
to tell if the biodiesel in a car is homebrewed or was purchased from a retail 
outlet.
 
Tom

  
  [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate 
  fuel vehicles?
  Alan PetrilloSat, 26 Nov 
  2005 17:29:35 -0800
  I caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting 
to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can "pay their fair share of 
highway maintenance costs."

Anyone know anything about this?


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

There's off-road and on-road diesel here in the US

Joe Street wrote:

 Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed. 
 So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using 
 taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could 
 be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?

 Joe

 David Miller wrote:

Joe Street wrote:

  

Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!




Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO, 
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of 
saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.


--- David

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[David Miller]

Joe Street wrote:

 Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed. 
 So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using 
 taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could 
 be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?


I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel 
car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of 
trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I 
know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye) 
in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth 
saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the 
tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I 
have the reserve though.

Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money 
in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.

--- David


 Joe

 David Miller wrote:

Joe Street wrote:

  

Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!




Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO, 
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of 
saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.


--- David

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[bob allen]

Jason and Katie wrote:
 i dont give a fuzzy flying fuck about taxes,

yeah,  you and leona 'taxes are for little people helmsley



  if they want to stop me and
 test my fuel for dyes, ill spend my time in the can, and get right back to
 it when i get home.
 America is a great country... its the idiots at the helm that bother me.
 
 - Original Message -
 From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 12:00 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
 
 
 There are two types of taxes for Fuel - State and Federal. All
 registered fuel Sellers are required to be registered with the IRS and
 the State they sell fuel in.  They inject a dye in the fuel - Yellow for
 on road fuel Red for off road. I think all gasoline is taxed and not
 dyed. ( I think the yellow has been discontinued now.) but any way they
 pay a tax on every gallon sold at the pump.  Ethanol and Biodiesel is
 the same as Dinogas and Dinodiesel in the eyes of the State and Federal
 officials.  Some states do encourage alternate fuels by one means or
 another but I havent heard of any tax breaks.  Now in the world of  do
 it yourselfers it is how brave you are to avoid paying those taxes. I
 leave that one there.

 If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government
 gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap
 tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may try.

 Jim

 Alan Petrillo wrote:

 I caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting
 to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay their fair share of
 highway maintenance costs.

 Anyone know anything about this?


 AP


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-- 
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http://ozarker.org/bob

Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Walker Bennett]

  Several States in the Northwest already add several hundred dollars annual "registration fee" on estimated travel distance for hybrid and electric vehicles.This has been going on for several years. Alan Petrillo wrote: I caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can "pay their fair share of highway maintenance costs." Anyone know anything about this? AP ___Walker  (Ben W. Gardner)___
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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Doug Younker]

Actually Kansas has been taxing alternate fuel vehicles for years.  Those
who use propane have to pay yearly based on an estimated miles to be driven
and are issued a windshield sticker.
Doug

- Original Message - 

On 11/27/05, Alan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting
 to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay their fair share of
 highway maintenance costs.

 Anyone know anything about this?


 AP


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Jason and Katie]

i dont give a fuzzy flying fuck about taxes, if they want to stop me and
test my fuel for dyes, ill spend my time in the can, and get right back to
it when i get home.
America is a great country... its the idiots at the helm that bother me.

- Original Message -
From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


 There are two types of taxes for Fuel - State and Federal. All
 registered fuel Sellers are required to be registered with the IRS and
 the State they sell fuel in.  They inject a dye in the fuel - Yellow for
 on road fuel Red for off road. I think all gasoline is taxed and not
 dyed. ( I think the yellow has been discontinued now.) but any way they
 pay a tax on every gallon sold at the pump.  Ethanol and Biodiesel is
 the same as Dinogas and Dinodiesel in the eyes of the State and Federal
 officials.  Some states do encourage alternate fuels by one means or
 another but I havent heard of any tax breaks.  Now in the world of  do
 it yourselfers it is how brave you are to avoid paying those taxes. I
 leave that one there.

 If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government
 gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap
 tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may try.

 Jim

 Alan Petrillo wrote:

 I caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting
 to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay their fair share of
 highway maintenance costs.
 
 Anyone know anything about this?
 
 
 AP
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[radema]

Nike,
Opinion is a matter of perspective.  That is why we have lobbyists.  Your, 
‘tongue in cheek comments’, on Government efficiency are certainly accurate, 
from the perspective of the beneficiaries (wealthy).  Mine are written from the 
perspective of the overtaxed (poor/ middle class).  My comments were originally 
made after thread participants were suggesting more tax as a viable solution.   

When lawmakers hear this (even once), they seize and spin to build more 
incoming revenue.  The first inefficiency we need to tackle is us.  We need to 
recognize that it is no longer all right to raise taxes.  



-- Original Message --
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Date:  Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:12:45 -0500

You're using the wrong metrics.  The US government works perfectly 
well.  It transfers money from the poor to the wealthy, and quite well I 
might add, so I don't buy your not efficient argument.  Just look at the 
recent energy bill.  Look at the Halliburton contracts.  This is a very 
efficient, well-run system.  What did you think the government is 
supposed to do?

radema wrote:

Great discussion threads.  I find myself drawn in without restraint.

IMO, the largest problem facing us via government isn't reactive governing, 
its waste (politically attractive) and vote buying (democracy).  

While the case can be made for higher Government revenue requiremnts, it is 
predicated on the assumption that Government works efficiently.  This is 
folly in the extreme sense.  We are witness to personal agendas from the top 
down to the smallest fiefdom. 

A thick self-serving union layer checks, double checks or escalates every 
daily activity for dual custody deniability.  A narrowly defined job scope is 
rigorously designed to allow the use of unskilled labor and systemically CYA 
when a resource is confronted by a new or evolutionary 'issue' (previously 
undefined).  In other words the system loses issues where resources are not 
protected.

Output is politically attractive in the form of plausible deniability. Action 
plans are equated to procedure and the optic of action.  This results in 
productivity that is not objective driven.  

Rad




-- Original Message --
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Date:  Sun, 27 Nov 2005 10:53:33 -0500 (EST)

  

There are major costs besides road maintenance and building, such as
health costs of pollution medical (National Health Service) and other
costs related to accidents, costs of policing. Back in the late 80's
Pollution Probe in Toronto published a study The Costs of the Car
which estimted that charging all costs to fuel would result in a total
gasoline price of $5 to$6 CDN per Imperial gallon. the price would be
almost double now. Also, the more roads the less land there is for
other uses and the lower the tax base to pay for ever increasing roads
and infrastructure. The ultimate solution is charges for road
use; difficult but becoming easier with the advance of computers and
electronics.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


On Sun, 27 Nov 2005, Chris lloyd wrote:



If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government


gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap
tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may try.

Here in the UK we buy a licence to use our vehicles on public roads, I pay
about 280 dollars a year which is far more than is required for road
maintenance/building.   Chris.

Wessex Ferret Club
www.wessexferretclub.co.uk



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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

poor/ middle class - then you don't really count.  Do you have a lobbyist?  How 
many congresspeople do you control?
Besides, we're getting off-point.  The issue isn't really that the whole world 
is against us, we're feeding lives, tax dollars and borrowed money into Iraq at 
an unsustainable rate, our health care system only works for the wealthy, we're 
hooked on foreign oil and have a recored trade imbalance and deficit.  No, the 
real issue is, uh, GAY MARRIAGE!  If you don't vote for me, GAY PEOPLE ARE 
GOING TO GO AND GET MARRIED!  And if that's out of steam, uh, the liberals want 
to ban prayer in school!


Just like Lucy, Charlie Brown and the ol' football trick, it works 
everytime.

radema wrote:

Nike,
Opinion is a matter of perspective.  That is why we have lobbyists.  Your, 
‘tongue in cheek comments’, on Government efficiency are certainly accurate, 
from the perspective of the beneficiaries (wealthy).  Mine are written from 
the perspective of the overtaxed (poor/ middle class).  My comments were 
originally made after thread participants were suggesting more tax as a viable 
solution.   

When lawmakers hear this (even once), they seize and spin to build more 
incoming revenue.  The first inefficiency we need to tackle is us.  We need to 
recognize that it is no longer all right to raise taxes.  



-- Original Message --
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Date:  Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:12:45 -0500

  

You're using the wrong metrics.  The US government works perfectly 
well.  It transfers money from the poor to the wealthy, and quite well I 
might add, so I don't buy your not efficient argument.  Just look at the 
recent energy bill.  Look at the Halliburton contracts.  This is a very 
efficient, well-run system.  What did you think the government is 
supposed to do?

radema wrote:



Great discussion threads.  I find myself drawn in without restraint.

IMO, the largest problem facing us via government isn't reactive governing, 
its waste (politically attractive) and vote buying (democracy).  

While the case can be made for higher Government revenue requiremnts, it is 
predicated on the assumption that Government works efficiently.  This is 
folly in the extreme sense.  We are witness to personal agendas from the top 
down to the smallest fiefdom. 

A thick self-serving union layer checks, double checks or escalates every 
daily activity for dual custody deniability.  A narrowly defined job scope 
is rigorously designed to allow the use of unskilled labor and systemically 
CYA when a resource is confronted by a new or evolutionary 'issue' 
(previously undefined).  In other words the system loses issues where 
resources are not protected.

Output is politically attractive in the form of plausible deniability. 
Action plans are equated to procedure and the optic of action.  This results 
in productivity that is not objective driven.  

Rad




-- Original Message --
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Date:  Sun, 27 Nov 2005 10:53:33 -0500 (EST)

 

  

There are major costs besides road maintenance and building, such as
health costs of pollution medical (National Health Service) and other
costs related to accidents, costs of policing. Back in the late 80's
Pollution Probe in Toronto published a study The Costs of the Car
which estimted that charging all costs to fuel would result in a total
gasoline price of $5 to$6 CDN per Imperial gallon. the price would be
almost double now. Also, the more roads the less land there is for
other uses and the lower the tax base to pay for ever increasing roads
and infrastructure. The ultimate solution is charges for road
use; difficult but becoming easier with the advance of computers and
electronics.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


On Sun, 27 Nov 2005, Chris lloyd wrote:

   



If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government
   



gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap
tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may try.

Here in the UK we buy a licence to use our vehicles on public roads, I pay
about 280 dollars a year which is far more than is required for road
maintenance/building.   Chris.

Wessex Ferret Club
www.wessexferretclub.co.uk



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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Chris lloyd]

 If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government
gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap
tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may try.

Here in the UK we buy a licence to use our vehicles on public roads, I pay 
about 280 dollars a year which is far more than is required for road 
maintenance/building.   Chris.

Wessex Ferret Club
www.wessexferretclub.co.uk



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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mehmet Ersan]

I dont know the stuation in as an example i want to talk about the tax plans on biofuel in Turkey.

I dont know the tax rates in outher countries but we pay about 65 of 100 as tax for buying normal fuels. Because of this biodiesel production is a profitable production.

this causes an unfair competition.. The biodisel tax rates is discussed esp. in big oil companies. they force goverment to change the unfair tax for them.

its said that they plan to change the biodiesel tax for the biodisel produced from import agricultural products but not in the ones that produced from the products growed in the country..

i dont think there is such kind of problem in US but we are waiting a change in the taxes in Turkey.. There are a lot of legends about it but this is the reasonable one 


On 11/27/05, Alan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wantingto tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay their fair share of
highway maintenance costs.Anyone know anything about this?AP___Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:
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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[dwoodard]

There are major costs besides road maintenance and building, such as
health costs of pollution medical (National Health Service) and other
costs related to accidents, costs of policing. Back in the late 80's
Pollution Probe in Toronto published a study The Costs of the Car
which estimted that charging all costs to fuel would result in a total
gasoline price of $5 to$6 CDN per Imperial gallon. the price would be
almost double now. Also, the more roads the less land there is for
other uses and the lower the tax base to pay for ever increasing roads
and infrastructure. The ultimate solution is charges for road
use; difficult but becoming easier with the advance of computers and
electronics.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


On Sun, 27 Nov 2005, Chris lloyd wrote:

  If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government
 gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap
 tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may try.

 Here in the UK we buy a licence to use our vehicles on public roads, I pay
 about 280 dollars a year which is far more than is required for road
 maintenance/building.   Chris.

 Wessex Ferret Club
 www.wessexferretclub.co.uk



 ___
 Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

Yeah!  The we could give the oil industry the money the need to find 
more oil.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

There are major costs besides road maintenance and building, such as
health costs of pollution medical (National Health Service) and other
costs related to accidents, costs of policing. Back in the late 80's
Pollution Probe in Toronto published a study The Costs of the Car
which estimted that charging all costs to fuel would result in a total
gasoline price of $5 to$6 CDN per Imperial gallon. the price would be
almost double now. Also, the more roads the less land there is for
other uses and the lower the tax base to pay for ever increasing roads
and infrastructure. The ultimate solution is charges for road
use; difficult but becoming easier with the advance of computers and
electronics.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


On Sun, 27 Nov 2005, Chris lloyd wrote:

  

If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government
  

gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap
tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may try.

Here in the UK we buy a licence to use our vehicles on public roads, I pay
about 280 dollars a year which is far more than is required for road
maintenance/building.   Chris.

Wessex Ferret Club
www.wessexferretclub.co.uk



___
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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[radema]

Great discussion threads.  I find myself drawn in without restraint.

IMO, the largest problem facing us via government isn't reactive governing, its 
waste (politically attractive) and vote buying (democracy).  

While the case can be made for higher Government revenue requiremnts, it is 
predicated on the assumption that Government works efficiently.  This is folly 
in the extreme sense.  We are witness to personal agendas from the top down to 
the smallest fiefdom. 

A thick self-serving union layer checks, double checks or escalates every daily 
activity for dual custody deniability.  A narrowly defined job scope is 
rigorously designed to allow the use of unskilled labor and systemically CYA 
when a resource is confronted by a new or evolutionary 'issue' (previously 
undefined).  In other words the system loses issues where resources are not 
protected.

Output is politically attractive in the form of plausible deniability. Action 
plans are equated to procedure and the optic of action.  This results in 
productivity that is not objective driven.  

Rad




-- Original Message --
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Date:  Sun, 27 Nov 2005 10:53:33 -0500 (EST)

There are major costs besides road maintenance and building, such as
health costs of pollution medical (National Health Service) and other
costs related to accidents, costs of policing. Back in the late 80's
Pollution Probe in Toronto published a study The Costs of the Car
which estimted that charging all costs to fuel would result in a total
gasoline price of $5 to$6 CDN per Imperial gallon. the price would be
almost double now. Also, the more roads the less land there is for
other uses and the lower the tax base to pay for ever increasing roads
and infrastructure. The ultimate solution is charges for road
use; difficult but becoming easier with the advance of computers and
electronics.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


On Sun, 27 Nov 2005, Chris lloyd wrote:

  If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government
 gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap
 tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may try.

 Here in the UK we buy a licence to use our vehicles on public roads, I pay
 about 280 dollars a year which is far more than is required for road
 maintenance/building.   Chris.

 Wessex Ferret Club
 www.wessexferretclub.co.uk



 ___
 Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

 Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

 Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Mike Weaver]

You're using the wrong metrics.  The US government works perfectly 
well.  It transfers money from the poor to the wealthy, and quite well I 
might add, so I don't buy your not efficient argument.  Just look at the 
recent energy bill.  Look at the Halliburton contracts.  This is a very 
efficient, well-run system.  What did you think the government is 
supposed to do?

radema wrote:

Great discussion threads.  I find myself drawn in without restraint.

IMO, the largest problem facing us via government isn't reactive governing, 
its waste (politically attractive) and vote buying (democracy).  

While the case can be made for higher Government revenue requiremnts, it is 
predicated on the assumption that Government works efficiently.  This is folly 
in the extreme sense.  We are witness to personal agendas from the top down to 
the smallest fiefdom. 

A thick self-serving union layer checks, double checks or escalates every 
daily activity for dual custody deniability.  A narrowly defined job scope is 
rigorously designed to allow the use of unskilled labor and systemically CYA 
when a resource is confronted by a new or evolutionary 'issue' (previously 
undefined).  In other words the system loses issues where resources are not 
protected.

Output is politically attractive in the form of plausible deniability. Action 
plans are equated to procedure and the optic of action.  This results in 
productivity that is not objective driven.  

Rad




-- Original Message --
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Date:  Sun, 27 Nov 2005 10:53:33 -0500 (EST)

  

There are major costs besides road maintenance and building, such as
health costs of pollution medical (National Health Service) and other
costs related to accidents, costs of policing. Back in the late 80's
Pollution Probe in Toronto published a study The Costs of the Car
which estimted that charging all costs to fuel would result in a total
gasoline price of $5 to$6 CDN per Imperial gallon. the price would be
almost double now. Also, the more roads the less land there is for
other uses and the lower the tax base to pay for ever increasing roads
and infrastructure. The ultimate solution is charges for road
use; difficult but becoming easier with the advance of computers and
electronics.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


On Sun, 27 Nov 2005, Chris lloyd wrote:



If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government


gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap
tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may try.

Here in the UK we buy a licence to use our vehicles on public roads, I pay
about 280 dollars a year which is far more than is required for road
maintenance/building.   Chris.

Wessex Ferret Club
www.wessexferretclub.co.uk



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[Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[Alan Petrillo]

I caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting 
to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay their fair share of 
highway maintenance costs.

Anyone know anything about this?


AP


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

[JJJN]

There are two types of taxes for Fuel - State and Federal. All 
registered fuel Sellers are required to be registered with the IRS and 
the State they sell fuel in.  They inject a dye in the fuel - Yellow for 
on road fuel Red for off road. I think all gasoline is taxed and not 
dyed. ( I think the yellow has been discontinued now.) but any way they 
pay a tax on every gallon sold at the pump.  Ethanol and Biodiesel is 
the same as Dinogas and Dinodiesel in the eyes of the State and Federal 
officials.  Some states do encourage alternate fuels by one means or 
another but I havent heard of any tax breaks.  Now in the world of  do 
it yourselfers it is how brave you are to avoid paying those taxes. I 
leave that one there.

If you are talking about hybrids that use electricity the government 
gets the fuel side tax but would have a rough time implementing a zap 
tax for charging the vehicle but its not out of the question they may try.

Jim

Alan Petrillo wrote:

I caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting 
to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay their fair share of 
highway maintenance costs.

Anyone know anything about this?


AP


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