Re: [Biofuel] modified sine and sine wave inverters
Hopefully you got a straight answer by now! If you know what a sine wave is, then the modified one could be described as a series of varying amplitute pulses that approximate the shape of a sine wave. Mike Weaver wrote: Cheap junky inverter vs. good inverter, not to put too fine a point on it... Chris lloyd wrote: I'm not off grid but use modified sine wave. What do you mean by modified sine wave? Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] modified sine and sine wave inverters
Sorry, I didn't catch all the previous thread! Any of you have experience with just having a modified sine wave powering computer equipment? My immediate goal, if it doesn't cost too much!, is to have an inverter powered from the battery with a charger to the grid. Mainly to provide a kind of UPS. Eventually that will be expanded and hopefully get a solar panel to hook up. I'm on the road all the time and not home, so when we get an outage, I'd like to be able to keep the computer up. Mike Weaver wrote: I'm not off grid but use modified sine wave. If I had it to do over I would have bought the pure. Sten Armstrong wrote: we started with a modified sine wave inverter with our first stand alone solar power system. lost several appliances because of it, washing machines especially seemed to dislike it. our new sine wave inverter cost a lot more but it works better and we haven't lost any appliances. */Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Also look up the difference between modified sine wave and pure sine wave inverters Ken Riznyk wrote: I would have to second the comments on the need for deep cycle batteries and not regular automotive batteries. You will also need to get a current inverter that is not made for use in an automobile. The inverters used with automobiles are designed to shut off while you still have enough current in your battery to start your car. This is a benefit if you are out camping and don't want to totally discharge your car battery, but not useful especially if you are lugging batteries back and forth to charge them up. Ken --- Darryl McMahon wrote: __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Do you Yahoo!? Find a local business fast with Yahoo! Local Search http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/au/local/*http://au.local.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] modified sine and sine wave inverters
Peter, Since everything inside your computer is DC, you might think about changing the power supply on it to DC/DC rather than the AC/DC power supply you have now. You would need a constant DC source, but would eliminate the inverter and the losses going from DC to AC to DC. They are available on Ebay and I found some on google as well. Many are designed to run on 12 Volt power to run computers in cars.On 11/22/05, Peter Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Sorry, I didn't catch all the previous thread!Any of you have experience with just having a modified sine wave powering computer equipment?My immediate goal, if it doesn't cost too much!, is to have an inverterpowered from the battery with a charger to the grid. Mainly to provide akind of UPS. Eventually that will be expanded and hopefully get a solar panel to hook up.I'm on the road all the time and not home, so when we get an outage, I'dlike to be able to keep the computer up.Mike Weaver wrote: I'm not off grid but use modified sine wave.If I had it to do over I would have bought the pure. Sten Armstrong wrote:we started with a modified sine wave inverter with our first standalone solar power system.lost several appliances because of it, washing machines especially seemed to dislike it.our new sine waveinverter cost a lot more but it works better and we haven't lost anyappliances.*/Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:Also look up the difference between modified sine wave and pure sinewave invertersKen Riznyk wrote: I would have to second the comments on the need fordeep cycle batteries and not regular automotivebatteries. You will also need to get a currentinverter that is not made for use in an automobile. The inverters used with automobiles are designed toshut off while you still have enough current in yourbattery to start your car. This is a benefit if youare out camping and don't want to totally discharge your car battery, but not useful especially if you arelugging batteries back and forth to charge them up.Ken--- Darryl McMahon wrote: __Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Do you Yahoo!?Find a local business fast with Yahoo! Local Searchhttp://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/au/local/*http://au.local.yahoo.com ___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/-- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. - Abba Eban ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] modified sine and sine wave inverters
On 22-Nov-05, at 5:47 PM, Peter Martin wrote: Sorry, I didn't catch all the previous thread! Any of you have experience with just having a modified sine wave powering computer equipment? Anything that uses a switching power supply should be OK, because the first thing it does with the incoming AC is to convert it to DC. CRT monitors and laser printers might have problems. Amplified speakers or other audio equipment will probably not work well. Modified sine wave is a marketing term. It's actually a modified square wave; the unit steps the battery up to a higher DC voltage V and then switches the output between 3 states: +V, 0, -V. This is easier and cheaper than generating something that actually looks like a sine wave. The RMS (= average for a non-EE) value of the voltage is the same as the sine wave it is simulating, but the peak value is different and there will be strong harmonic frequencies present (as others have mentioned). ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] modified sine and sine wave inverters
we started with a modified sine wave inverter with our first stand alone solar power system. lost several appliances because of it, washing machines especially seemed to dislike it. our new sine wave inverter cost a lot more but it works better and we haven't lost any appliances.Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also look up the difference between modified sine wave and pure sine wave invertersKen Riznyk wrote:I would have to second the comments on the need fordeep cycle batteries and not regular automotivebatteries. You will also need to get a currentinverter that is not made for use in an automobile. The inverters used with automobiles are designed toshut off while you still have enough current in yourbattery to start your car. This is a benefit if youare out camping and don't want to totally dischargeyour car battery, but not useful especially if you arelugging batteries back and forth to charge them up.Ken--- Darryl McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Do you Yahoo!? Find a local business fast with Yahoo! Local Search___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] modified sine and sine wave inverters
I'm not off grid but use modified sine wave. If I had it to do over I would have bought the pure. Sten Armstrong wrote: we started with a modified sine wave inverter with our first stand alone solar power system. lost several appliances because of it, washing machines especially seemed to dislike it. our new sine wave inverter cost a lot more but it works better and we haven't lost any appliances. */Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Also look up the difference between modified sine wave and pure sine wave inverters Ken Riznyk wrote: I would have to second the comments on the need for deep cycle batteries and not regular automotive batteries. You will also need to get a current inverter that is not made for use in an automobile. The inverters used with automobiles are designed to shut off while you still have enough current in your battery to start your car. This is a benefit if you are out camping and don't want to totally discharge your car battery, but not useful especially if you are lugging batteries back and forth to charge them up. Ken --- Darryl McMahon wrote: __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Do you Yahoo!? Find a local business fast with Yahoo! Local Search http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/au/local/*http://au.local.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] modified sine and sine wave inverters
I'm not off grid but use modified sine wave. What do you mean by modified sine wave? Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] modified sine and sine wave inverters
Cheap junky inverter vs. good inverter, not to put too fine a point on it... Chris lloyd wrote: I'm not off grid but use modified sine wave. What do you mean by modified sine wave? Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] modified sine and sine wave inverters
Cheap junky inverter vs. good inverter, not to put too fine a point on it... I remember something I bought years ago that only gave out a half wave, it messed up my stereo. Chris, Wessex Ferret Club www.wessexferretclub.co.uk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] modified sine and sine wave inverters
Yup Chris lloyd wrote: Cheap junky inverter vs. good inverter, not to put too fine a point on it... I remember something I bought years ago that only gave out a half wave, it messed up my stereo. Chris, Wessex Ferret Club www.wessexferretclub.co.uk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] modified sine and sine wave inverters
What do you mean by modified sine wave? Normal AC electricity flows basically in both directions and the change from one peak to another is smooth and has the shape of a sine wave. Modified sine wave inverters don't follow this pattern exactly. They may hold full power in one direction for 1/4 cycle, no power for the next 1/4, full power in the other direction for another 1/4, and then no power for the last 1/4 (basically approximating a sinewave with lines). Here's a graphic to that effect: http://www.netcentral.co.uk/satcure/images/modified_sine_wave2.gif And from what I have read, some equipment is sensative to such things and can be damaged by modified sine waves, since they were designed to work with true sine waves. If I'm wrong, please someone correct me, but that's the impression that I get. -Michael Chris lloyd wrote: I'm not off grid but use modified sine wave. What do you mean by modified sine wave? Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] modified sine and sine wave inverters
Michael,Well done.I would only add that if one looks at any wave form as a series of sines and cosines (as Fourier did),an explanation as to why equipment malfunctions under a modified sinesignal becomes clear. Many forms of modified sine wavescome from a kind of square wave (as in your example) which is made from the sum ofmany sine and cosinefunctions (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/FourierSeriesSquareWave.html). Only one sine function, usually coming from the fundamental frequency is the one for which your device is designed. The rest can effect transformer and electric motor performance (for example).Mike Michael Nehring [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "What do you mean by modified sine wave?"Normal AC electricity flows basically in both directions and the change from one peak to another is smooth and has the shape of a sine wave. Modified sine wave inverters don't follow this pattern exactly. They may hold full power in one direction for 1/4 cycle, no power for the next 1/4, full power in the other direction for another 1/4, and then no power for the last 1/4 (basically approximating a sinewave with lines). Here's a graphic to that effect: http://www.netcentral.co.uk/satcure/images/modified_sine_wave2.gifAnd from what I have read, some equipment is sensative to such things and can be damaged by modified sine waves, since they were designed to work with true sine waves.If I'm wrong, please someone correct me, but that's the impression that I get.-MichaelChris lloyd wrote:I'm not off grid but use modified sine wave. What do you mean by modified sine wave? Chris.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] modified sine and sine wave inverters
Modified sine: stepped generation of approximate sine wave. The issue is that modified sine generates transients that interfere with some attached equipment power supplies (an example being in the medical field: Baxter Colleague infusion pumps overheat their power supplies on modified sine wave inverters: We had to change our Ambulance inverters to pure sine wave inverters.) regards Doug On Wednesday 23 November 2005 3:35, Mike Weaver wrote: Cheap junky inverter vs. good inverter, not to put too fine a point on it... Chris lloyd wrote: I'm not off grid but use modified sine wave. What do you mean by modified sine wave? Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
