Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
I live in Arkansas,US of A, so it is the third world, except we have a nucular reactor. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob, You mean people heating their water with electricity aren't using flow limiting shower heads. Why I'm shocked to hear this. You must be talking about people who live in the third world not the first. Whew, I was really worried there for a minute. But wait I'm confused, most people living in developing countries don't have accress to electricity to heat their hot water. What's going on here. Tom Irwin *From:* bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:53:14 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Although my observations will offset in terms of net effects, a fifteen minute shower is a really really long shower in my experience. A few years ago I had students go out and calculate energy use for showers. average length 3 to 4 minutes, temperature around 40 C, and flow rate varied from 2 to 6 gallons per minute, average on the high end about 5 gal/min. this from a combination of dorms, apartments, and single family homes. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin *From:* Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) *Sent:* Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word ridiculous in threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put seems in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture. Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature. ...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not. ...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application. Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources. *http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p *Mike */Tom Irwin /* wrote: Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Hoo pig, Soooeee! My family hails from NW Arkansas. bob allen wrote: I live in Arkansas,US of A, so it is the third world, except we have a nucular reactor. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob, You mean people heating their water with electricity aren't using flow limiting shower heads. Why I'm shocked to hear this. You must be talking about people who live in the third world not the first. Whew, I was really worried there for a minute. But wait I'm confused, most people living in developing countries don't have accress to electricity to heat their hot water. What's going on here. Tom Irwin *From:* bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:53:14 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Although my observations will offset in terms of net effects, a fifteen minute shower is a really really long shower in my experience. A few years ago I had students go out and calculate energy use for showers. average length 3 to 4 minutes, temperature around 40 C, and flow rate varied from 2 to 6 gallons per minute, average on the high end about 5 gal/min. this from a combination of dorms, apartments, and single family homes. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin *From:* Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) *Sent:* Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word ridiculous in threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put seems in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture. Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature. ...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not. ...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application. Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources. *http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p *Mike */Tom Irwin /* wrote: Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Although my observations will offset in terms of net effects, a fifteen minute shower is a really really long shower in my experience. A few years ago I had students go out and calculate energy use for showers. average length 3 to 4 minutes, temperature around 40 C, and flow rate varied from 2 to 6 gallons per minute, average on the high end about 5 gal/min. this from a combination of dorms, apartments, and single family homes. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin *From:* Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word ridiculous in threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put seems in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture. Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature. ...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not. ...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com http://www.motherearthnews.com/ which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application. Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources. *http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p *Mike */Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])/* wrote: Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me. Tom Irwin *From:* John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) *Sent:* Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Jim, There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. They recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking showers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Check http://www.gfxtechnology.com/ There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the same price of $375 and there are tax incentives for these. I do not agree
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Hi Bob,
You mean people heating their water with electricity aren't using flow limiting shower heads. Why I'm shocked to hear this. You must be talking about people who live in the third world not the first. Whew, I was really worried there for a minute. But wait I'm confused, most people living in developing countries don't have accress to electricity to heat their hot water. What's going on here.
Tom Irwin
From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:53:14 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectorsAlthough my observations will offset in terms of net effects, a fifteen minute shower is a really really long shower in my experience. A few years ago I had students go out and calculate energy use for showers. average length 3 to 4 minutes, temperature around 40 C, and flow rate varied from 2 to 6 gallons per minute, average on the high end about 5 gal/min. this from a combination of dorms, apartments, and single family homes.Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin *From:* Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word "ridiculous" in threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put "seems" in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture. Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature. "...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing." Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not. "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C" Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application. "Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources." *http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p *Mike */Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","[EMAIL PROTECTED]")>/* wrote: Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me. Tom Irwin *From:* John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","[EMAIL PROTECTED]")>] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","Biofuel@sustainablelists.org")> *Sent:* Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Jim, There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. They recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking showers. According to the DOE studies cond
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Tom, Do not worry, it must be other developed countries than US, this because US is using more gasoline than water. Cannot be the French either, since I saw some statistics that they only shower once every two weeks and that was the immigrants, according to a French guy I know. It is no sure numbers on how often the real French shower. They have however the best perfumes on the market. I feel a bit guilty here, because it is the Swedes who are using more water than gasoline and they shower several times a week. A very wasteful people, the Swedes, and they have a lot of water also. They should be ashamed to use so little oil, according to a well known oil company, who threatened to stop delivering oil. Hakan At 17:31 14/10/2005, you wrote: Hi Bob, You mean people heating their water with electricity aren't using flow limiting shower heads. Why I'm shocked to hear this. You must be talking about people who live in the third world not the first. Whew, I was really worried there for a minute. But wait I'm confused, most people living in developing countries don't have accress to electricity to heat their hot water. What's going on here. Tom Irwin -- From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:53:14 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Although my observations will offset in terms of net effects, a fifteen minute shower is a really really long shower in my experience. A few years ago I had students go out and calculate energy use for showers. average length 3 to 4 minutes, temperature around 40 C, and flow rate varied from 2 to 6 gallons per minute, average on the high end about 5 gal/min. this from a combination of dorms, apartments, and single family homes. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin *From:* Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word ridiculous in threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put seems in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture. Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature. ...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not. ...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application. Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources. *http://tinyurl.com/dxk4phttp://tinyurl.com/dxk4p *Mike */Tom Irwin /* wrote: Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
M. Falk: As a person with (minor) French ancestry, I am shocked and offended at your suggestion that the French do not bathe regularly. I challenge you to defend yourself in a duel of honor. Shampoo at fifty yards, the first one to achieve a glossy sheen to be declared the winner. I name as my seconds Vidal Sasoon and the Breck girl. If the first duel is not satisfactory, we will rinse and repeat. Prepare to meet your suds. M. Weaver Hakan Falk wrote: Tom, Do not worry, it must be other developed countries than US, this because US is using more gasoline than water. Cannot be the French either, since I saw some statistics that they only shower once every two weeks and that was the immigrants, according to a French guy I know. It is no sure numbers on how often the real French shower. They have however the best perfumes on the market. I feel a bit guilty here, because it is the Swedes who are using more water than gasoline and they shower several times a week. A very wasteful people, the Swedes, and they have a lot of water also. They should be ashamed to use so little oil, according to a well known oil company, who threatened to stop delivering oil. Hakan At 17:31 14/10/2005, you wrote: Hi Bob, You mean people heating their water with electricity aren't using flow limiting shower heads. Why I'm shocked to hear this. You must be talking about people who live in the third world not the first. Whew, I was really worried there for a minute. But wait I'm confused, most people living in developing countries don't have accress to electricity to heat their hot water. What's going on here. Tom Irwin -- From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:53:14 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Although my observations will offset in terms of net effects, a fifteen minute shower is a really really long shower in my experience. A few years ago I had students go out and calculate energy use for showers. average length 3 to 4 minutes, temperature around 40 C, and flow rate varied from 2 to 6 gallons per minute, average on the high end about 5 gal/min. this from a combination of dorms, apartments, and single family homes. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin *From:* Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word "ridiculous" in threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put "seems" in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture. Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature. "...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing." Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not. "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C" Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application. "Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources." *http://tinyurl.com/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Hakan Falk a écrit : Tom, Do not worry, it must be other developed countries than US, this because US is using more gasoline than water. Cannot be the French either, since I saw some statistics that they only shower once every two weeks and that was the immigrants, according to a French guy I know. It is no sure numbers on how often the real French shower. They have however the best perfumes on the market. I feel a bit guilty here, because it is the Swedes who are using more water than gasoline and they shower several times a week. A very wasteful people, the Swedes, and they have a lot of water also. They should be ashamed to use so little oil, according to a well known oil company, who threatened to stop delivering oil. Hakan Hakan, I feel concerned as a french. I must try to find out explanations to save the honor of my team ;-) During the 50's, french were considered as dirty people because of their very low consuption of soaps and toothbrushes, and a very low rate of modern bathroom equipment. And obviously, it's true that a very short part of appartments and houses were equiped with WC or showers. That even doesn't mean that people were dirty : my grand parents told me how they used to wash with [the famous french] wet gloves and basins twice a day. Ask 1/3 world people how heavy is water when you have to carry it for km or bring it at the 5th floor. An active policy of public aids for years helped France to stick at the european average. Now we can waste good water like our developped friends. During the 90's, new statistics showed that the average french used more soap than the average brittish. Proudness. But I also read that the statistics were based on different parameters. A panel of few citizens or samples in a hand , and the total amount of soap or water sold divided but population in the other. And in rural areas of France, we often have wells. Water is free and not counted. Only people who uses l'eau de la ville (= city water, the drinkable water with good bleach taste...) pay the pollution tax (included in the water bill). And water is not only used in the bathroom. I supposed that depends on national habits. For teeth washing, and know only very few people with their natural teeth. They probably didn't care as we do when they were young, and when get a plastic smile, they kept on to not use much water and toothbrushes... The delicious garlic fragrance of old french breathes may be not came of the vegetable ? About perfumes, the french fame came from king Louis XIV, who had very smart water pieces in his gardens of Versailles palace, but any bathroom or toilets in buildings. Courtisans were supposed to do their needs in pots or on the floor behind curtains. So what we call the Louis XIV method is to use cosmetics and perfumes to hide the odors from lack of bodycare. And I guess that the perfumes had to be efficient :-|) More seriously, Swedes have a great luck to have big water ressources. In some parts of France, southern Europe and elsewhere worldwide, droughtness is severe. Spain or Brasil plans to do as California to change river ways. Water is one of the main real reasons of the war between palestinians and Israelians. At home, one of my 2 wells is dry since July and our pond is completly dry for the first time in 52 years. Newspaper are speaking of less than one month of drinkable water stocks in central western France. We can survive without oil, not without water. Frantz (one shower a day) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Hmmm. Interesting direction this thread is taking... While we are talking about showers, why exactly is it assumed in the US that everyone must take a shower every day. When in a dry climate, not doing much physical work (like going to the office every day) I get by with every other day fine. If you are on the east coast of the US, yes, you probably need to take a shower every day because the humidity is so dreadful, but out here in Colorado, why? It just makes your skin dry and is probably less healthy. No one that I work or live with has ever complained. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Mike Weaver a écrit : M. Falk: As a person with (minor) French ancestry, I am shocked and offended at your suggestion that the French do not bathe regularly. I challenge you to defend yourself in a duel of honor. Shampoo at fifty yards, the first one to achieve a glossy sheen to be declared the winner. I name as my seconds Vidal Sasoon and the Breck girl. If the first duel is not satisfactory, we will rinse and repeat. Prepare to meet your suds. M. Weaver M. Weaver, I am very grateful of your sollicitude, but be careful, scandinavians are famous for their weapons of mass desinfection. They could invite you into a steam bath until you've been cooked, before roll you in snow or dive in icy water. None a civilized gentleman as you surely are can resist such a barbarian treatment. And since Volvo refused to married Renault, we are in bad t(h)erms. M. Desprez ( with half of my ancestry from Normandy, so Hakan is maybe a cousin of mine) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
I agree. Only on weeks where I do real work - splitting wood or such do I take a shower daily. Mostly every other day is fine. This is not always true in the Summer, though. I am on the East Coast. Zeke Yewdall wrote: Hmmm. Interesting direction this thread is taking... While we are talking about showers, why exactly is it assumed in the US that everyone must take a shower every day. When in a dry climate, not doing much physical work (like going to the office every day) I get by with every other day fine. If you are on the east coast of the US, yes, you probably need to take a shower every day because the humidity is so dreadful, but out here in Colorado, why? It just makes your skin dry and is probably less healthy. No one that I work or live with has ever complained. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
>From my (fairly limited) time in France the big difference I noticed was the French use far less water. In one hotel there was a small tub and bathing spray, in another a small shower with an instant heater. I probably used 1/4 the water that I would here, where most people keep a 60 gallon tank at 125 F degree hot all day and all night. Efficiency was the norm most of the places I went in Europe. When European friends come to stay they do marvel at the hot water - I had (a number of years ago) a young lady friend who spent a good 30 minutes in the shower every morning with the water on HOT. She always emerged pink and dreamy. I always suspected her attraction was not so much for me, but for my water boiler. Of course now I am plotting how to rid myself of the boiler and go solar. Frantz DESPREZ wrote: Hakan Falk a crit : Tom, Do not worry, it must be other developed countries than US, this because US is using more gasoline than water. Cannot be the French either, since I saw some statistics that they only shower once every two weeks and that was the immigrants, according to a French guy I know. It is no sure numbers on how often the real French shower. They have however the best perfumes on the market. I feel a bit guilty here, because it is the Swedes who are using more water than gasoline and they shower several times a week. A very wasteful people, the Swedes, and they have a lot of water also. They should be ashamed to use so little oil, according to a well known oil company, who threatened to stop delivering oil. Hakan Hakan, I feel concerned as a french. I must try to find out explanations to save the honor of my team ;-) During the 50's, french were considered as dirty people because of their very low consuption of soaps and toothbrushes, and a very low rate of modern bathroom equipment. And obviously, it's true that a very short part of appartments and houses were equiped with WC or showers. That even doesn't mean that people were dirty : my grand parents told me how they used to wash with [the famous french] wet gloves and basins twice a day. Ask 1/3 world people how heavy is water when you have to carry it for km or bring it at the 5th floor. An active policy of public aids for years helped France to stick at the european average. Now we can waste good water like our developped friends. During the 90's, new statistics showed that the average french used more soap than the average brittish. Proudness. But I also read that the statistics were based on different parameters. A panel of few citizens or samples in a hand , and the total amount of soap or water sold divided but population in the other. And in rural areas of France, we often have wells. Water is free and not counted. Only people who uses "l'eau de la ville" (= city water, the drinkable water with good bleach taste...) pay the pollution tax (included in the water bill). And water is not only used in the bathroom. I supposed that depends on national habits. For teeth washing, and know only very few people with their natural teeth. They probably didn't care as we do when they were young, and when get a plastic smile, they kept on to not use much water and toothbrushes... The delicious garlic fragrance of old french breathes may be not came of the vegetable ? About perfumes, the french fame came from king Louis XIV, who had very smart water pieces in his gardens of Versailles palace, but any bathroom or toilets in buildings. Courtisans were supposed to do their needs in pots or on the floor behind curtains. So what we call the "Louis XIV method" is to use cosmetics and perfumes to hide the odors from lack of bodycare. And I guess that the perfumes had to be efficient :-|) More seriously, Swedes have a great luck to have big water ressources. In some parts of France, southern Europe and elsewhere worldwide, droughtness is severe. Spain or Brasil plans to do as California to change river ways. Water is one of the main real reasons of the war between palestinians and Israelians. At home, one of my 2 wells is dry since July and our pond is completly dry for the first time in 52 years. Newspaper are speaking of less than one month of drinkable water stocks in central western France. We can survive without oil, not without water. Frantz (one shower a day) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
I generally take a shower once a month whether I need it or not. (in the summer of course, in the winter we can take snow baths every day) PS for all you foreigners. underwear can be recycled four times (inside out, back and front) this is of course common sense to Canadians but I am sensitive to the international nature of this list. Joe Frantz DESPREZ wrote: Mike Weaver a crit : M. Falk: As a person with (minor) French ancestry, I am shocked and offended at your suggestion that the French do not bathe regularly. I challenge you to defend yourself in a duel of honor. Shampoo at fifty yards, the first one to achieve a glossy sheen to be declared the winner. I name as my seconds Vidal Sasoon and the Breck girl. If the first duel is not satisfactory, we will rinse and repeat. Prepare to meet your suds. M. Weaver M. Weaver, I am very grateful of your sollicitude, but be careful, scandinavians are famous for their weapons of mass desinfection. They could invite you into a steam bath until you've been cooked, before roll you in snow or dive in icy water. None a civilized gentleman as you surely are can resist such a barbarian treatment. And since Volvo refused to married Renault, we are in bad t(h)erms. M. Desprez ( with half of my ancestry from Normandy, so Hakan is maybe a cousin of mine) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
I really like this list and its members, including the French and Canadian French. LOL It is fun with the sparks and the humor. Hakan At 20:52 14/10/2005, you wrote: I generally take a shower once a month whether I need it or not. (in the summer of course, in the winter we can take snow baths every day) PS for all you foreigners. underwear can be recycled four times (inside out, back and front) this is of course common sense to Canadians but I am sensitive to the international nature of this list. Joe Frantz DESPREZ wrote: Mike Weaver a écrit : M. Falk: As a person with (minor) French ancestry, I am shocked and offended at your suggestion that the French do not bathe regularly. I challenge you to defend yourself in a duel of honor. Shampoo at fifty yards, the first one to achieve a glossy sheen to be declared the winner. I name as my seconds Vidal Sasoon and the Breck girl. If the first duel is not satisfactory, we will rinse and repeat. Prepare to meet your suds. M. Weaver M. Weaver, I am very grateful of your sollicitude, but be careful, scandinavians are famous for their weapons of mass desinfection. They could invite you into a steam bath until you've been cooked, before roll you in snow or dive in icy water. None a civilized gentleman as you surely are can resist such a barbarian treatment. And since Volvo refused to married Renault, we are in bad t(h)erms. M. Desprez ( with half of my ancestry from Normandy, so Hakan is maybe a cousin of mine) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
!! What about us ugly Americans? Hakan Falk wrote: I really like this list and its members, including the French and Canadian French. LOL It is fun with the sparks and the humor. Hakan At 20:52 14/10/2005, you wrote: I generally take a shower once a month whether I need it or not. (in the summer of course, in the winter we can take snow baths every day) PS for all you foreigners. underwear can be recycled four times (inside out, back and front) this is of course common sense to Canadians but I am sensitive to the international nature of this list. Joe Frantz DESPREZ wrote: Mike Weaver a crit : M. Falk: As a person with (minor) French ancestry, I am shocked and offended at your suggestion that the French do not bathe regularly. I challenge you to defend yourself in a duel of honor. Shampoo at fifty yards, the first one to achieve a glossy sheen to be declared the winner. I name as my seconds Vidal Sasoon and the Breck girl. If the first duel is not satisfactory, we will rinse and repeat. Prepare to meet your suds. M. Weaver M. Weaver, I am very grateful of your sollicitude, but be careful, scandinavians are famous for their weapons of mass desinfection. They could invite you into a steam bath until you've been cooked, before roll you in snow or dive in icy water. None a civilized gentleman as you surely are can resist such a barbarian treatment. And since Volvo refused to married Renault, we are in bad t(h)erms. M. Desprez ( with half of my ancestry from Normandy, so Hakan is maybe a cousin of mine) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Is there a way to turn excess glycerin into perfume? That might save some energy too! MikeHakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I really like this list and its members, including the Frenchand Canadian French. LOLIt is fun with the sparks and the humor.HakanAt 20:52 14/10/2005, you wrote:I generally take a shower once a month whether I need it or not.(in the summer of course, in the winter we can take snow baths every day)PS for all you foreigners. underwear can be recycled four times (inside out, back and front) this is of course common sense to Canadians but I am sensitive to the international nature of this list.JoeFrantz DESPREZ wrote:Mike Weaver a écrit :M. Falk:As a person with (minor) French ancestry, I am shocked and offended atyour suggestion that the French do not bathe regularly.I challenge you to defend yourself in a duel of honor. Shampoo atfifty yards, the first one to achieve a glossy sheen to be declaredthe winner.I name as my seconds Vidal Sasoon and the Breck girl. If the firstduel is not satisfactory, we will rinse and repeat.Prepare to meet your suds.M. WeaverM. Weaver,I am very grateful of your sollicitude, but be careful, scandinaviansare famous for their weapons of mass desinfection.They could invite you into a steam bath until you've been cooked, beforeroll you in snow or dive in icy water.None a civilized gentleman as you surely are can resist such a barbariantreatment.And since Volvo refused to married Renault, we are in bad t(h)erms.M. Desprez( with half of my ancestry from Normandy, so Hakan is maybe a cousin ofmine)___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Mike, Ugly is your addition and I love Americans, the only thing that I do not like is their foreign policies, energy policies. and the political/economy corruption by the US corporations. By the way, I also like the French. My daughter in law and grandchildren are French. Hakan At 23:21 14/10/2005, you wrote: !! What about us ugly Americans? Hakan Falk wrote: I really like this list and its members, including the French and Canadian French. LOL It is fun with the sparks and the humor. Hakan At 20:52 14/10/2005, you wrote: I generally take a shower once a month whether I need it or not. (in the summer of course, in the winter we can take snow baths every day) PS for all you foreigners. underwear can be recycled four times (inside out, back and front) this is of course common sense to Canadians but I am sensitive to the international nature of this list. Joe Frantz DESPREZ wrote: Mike Weaver a écrit : M. Falk: As a person with (minor) French ancestry, I am shocked and offended at your suggestion that the French do not bathe regularly. I challenge you to defend yourself in a duel of honor. Shampoo at fifty yards, the first one to achieve a glossy sheen to be declared the winner. I name as my seconds Vidal Sasoon and the Breck girl. If the first duel is not satisfactory, we will rinse and repeat. Prepare to meet your suds. M. Weaver M. Weaver, I am very grateful of your sollicitude, but be careful, scandinavians are famous for their weapons of mass desinfection. They could invite you into a steam bath until you've been cooked, before roll you in snow or dive in icy water. None a civilized gentleman as you surely are can resist such a barbarian treatment. And since Volvo refused to married Renault, we are in bad t(h)erms. M. Desprez ( with half of my ancestry from Normandy, so Hakan is maybe a cousin of mine) ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
On 10/14/05, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree.Only on weeks where I do real work - splitting wood or such doI take a shower daily.Mostly every other day is fine.This is notalways true in the Summer, though.I am on the East Coast. Northeast or Southeast? Or even worse, Deep South? They're something of a requirement here in the Southeast. Humidity up around 70-80 percent all year 'round, with summertime heat indexes spiking up over 115-120F. Plus I bike to work each morning, a good 15-16 miles, and home again in the afternoon (In the middle of that heat, ugh!), so during the summer I will instead often do two shorter semi-showers; the one in the morning is more to rinse out the hair and get it manageable, with a more normal shower after I've biked in that heat. I guess though that I'm weird, cold showers are my preference. Certainly less taxing on our NG water heater, though. And cool showers are pretty effective at cleaning if you've been sweating heavily recently, I've found. Very relaxing too. Just another data point. -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Hi John, Thanks for the info, I have been out of town all week so I am late in my reply, I will read all the great feed back here and get something going. I never realized what a resource hog I was till I started reading all the info here. Thanks again, Jim John Hall wrote: Jim, There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. They recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking showers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Check http://www.gfxtechnology.com/ There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the same price of $375 and there are tax incentives for these. I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since most homes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cut that about in half. Regards; John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:15 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Hi folks, I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are: 1) Solar collectors 2) Grey water heat going down the drain Can anyone give me some pointers in these two areas? Thanks in advance Jim Wisdom to all ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period.That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me. Tom Irwin From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectorsJim,There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. Theyrecover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while takingshowers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Checkhttp://www.gfxtechnology.com/There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the sameprice of $375 and there are tax incentives for these. I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since mosthomes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cutthat about in half.Regards;John-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of JJJNSent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:15 PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech SolarcollectorsHi folks,I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are:1) Solar collectors2) Grey water heat going down the drainCan anyone give me some pointers in these two areas?Thanks in advanceJimWisdom to all___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
In my household of one, recovering the heat in my grey water is as simple as leaving the plug in until the water has reached room temperature before draining sinks or tub/shower. In a larger family size situation, I can see how spacing out showers in the morning before getting the entire horde off to work and school, allowing water to cool in place would really be a waste of everyone's time, and throw the schedule off! For my situation however, this works, and for no additional expense. doug swanson John Hall wrote: Jim, There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. They recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking showers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Check http://www.gfxtechnology.com/ There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the same price of $375 and there are tax incentives for these. I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since most homes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cut that about in half. Regards; John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:15 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Hi folks, I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are: 1) Solar collectors 2) Grey water heat going down the drain Can anyone give me some pointers in these two areas? Thanks in advance Jim Wisdom to all ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
With all due respect Tom, when Isee someone use the word "ridiculous" inthreads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has beenexplored and all possible conclusions made as to thepotential of an idea (even if you put "seems" in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture. Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like theenergy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature. "...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing." Fouling is a foregone conclusion inmost heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most peoplewould be takingbaths, whether they want to or not. "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C" Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.comwhich talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, Iknow that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application. "Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources." http://tinyurl.com/dxk4pMike Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period.That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me. Tom Irwin From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectorsJim,There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. Theyrecover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while takingshowers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Checkhttp://www.gfxtechnology.com/There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the sameprice of $375 and there are tax incentives for these. I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since mosthomes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cutthat about in half.Regards;John ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Since the greywater portion of the heat exchanger must operate under very the low pressure head of a gravity drain and still flow at an adequate rate, it must be quite large in diameter. It is essentially a drain pipe and is no more likely to get clogged than any other drain pipe. Since the water is not standing in the heat exchanger but just flowing through, it doesn't have the required gestation time for significant biological growth -- just like most drain pipes don't grow stuff, unless they have standing pools of stagnant water due to poor slope design (hair going down the drain, or mineral deposits are obviously a different issue). Given that this heat exchanger is the same diameter as any other drain plumbing, I don't see biological fouling as a significant issue. The heat exchanger path for the incoming cold water is indeed much smaller with a higher pressure loss (usually, a small spiral tube wrapped around the greywater drain pipe), however it is clean water, and is no different than the heat exchanger for any on demand water heater. The effectiveness comes from the fact that showers are essentially continuous flow systems with no time delay from inflow to outflow. The exact time that hot water is flowing down the drain, is the same time that incoming cold water is flowing through the outer tubes of the heat exchanger. They work very well under these conditions. Uses such as clothes washing, dishwashing, anything that involves drawing hot water, using it for a while, then discharging it to the drain, they have little effect on, since the hot water discharge does not coincide with the cold water draw to the input of the water heater. If showers use a significant portion of an average household's hot water, then greywater heat reclamation would seem to make sense. Zeke On 10/13/05, Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me. Tom Irwin From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Jim, There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. They recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking showers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Check http://www.gfxtechnology.com/ There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the same price of $375 and there are tax incentives for these. I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since most homes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cut that about in half. Regards; John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:15 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Hi folks, I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are: 1) Solar collectors 2) Grey water heat going down the drain Can anyone give me some pointers in these two areas? Thanks in advance Jim Wisdom to all ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors With all due respect Tom, when Isee someone use the word "ridiculous" inthreads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has beenexplored and all possible conclusions made as to thepotential of an idea (even if you put "seems" in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture. Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like theenergy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature. "...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing." Fouling is a foregone conclusion inmost heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most peoplewould be takingbaths, whether they want to or not. "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C" Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.comwhich talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, Iknow that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application. "Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources." http://tinyurl.com/dxk4pMike Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period.That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me. Tom Irwin From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectorsJim,There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. Theyrecover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while takingshowers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Checkhttp://www.gfxtechnology.com/There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the sameprice of $375 and there are tax incentives for these. I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since mosthomes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cutthat about in half.Regards;John ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
So if we assume that energy to heat water costs about $15/Mbtu (or about 1.5 cents per MJ), then you've saved about 9 cents on that shower. Times four showers a day for a year, and you've saved $131 Since incoming water temp is usually more like 5 or 10C here in the northern US, you'd actually save a little more up here. Given an installed cost of $600 for a commercial greywater heat exchanger that looks like a simple payback of four years or so to me... On 10/13/05, Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word ridiculous in threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put seems in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture. Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature. ...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not. ...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application. Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources. http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p Mike Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me. Tom Irwin From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Jim, There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. They recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking showers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Check http://www.gfxtechnology.com/ There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the same price of $375 and there are tax incentives for these. I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since most homes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cut that about in half. Regards; John ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Hi Zeke, That would be 9 cents per shower with no exchanger inefficiency and comparing it with heating hot water with electricity. Interesting comparison.Throw another log or two in the fire, dude!They're renewable and CO2 neutral. Tom Irwin From: Zeke Yewdall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:06:05 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectorsSo if we assume that energy to heat water costs about $15/Mbtu (orabout 1.5 cents per MJ), then you've saved about 9 cents on thatshower. Times four showers a day for a year, and you've saved$131 Since incoming water temp is usually more like 5 or 10C herein the northern US, you'd actually save a little more up here. Givenan installed cost of $600 for a commercial greywater heat exchangerthat looks like a simple payback of four years or so to me...On 10/13/05, Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word "ridiculous" in threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put "seems" in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture. Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature. "...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing." Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not. "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C" Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application. "Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources." http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p Mike Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me. Tom Irwin From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Jim, There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. They recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking showers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Check http://www.gfxtechnology.com/ There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the same price of $375 and there are tax incentives for these. I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since most homes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cut that about in half. Regards; John ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablel
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
True, I forgot to include the heat exchanger efficiency. But propane is now about $16/Mbtu ($1.50/gallon) here. And to be fair, you have to take into account that a propane water heater isn't 100% efficient either. Plus most people around here use propane to heat their water even when they do use wood heat for primary space heating. Alot more hassle to heat water with wood if you are used to modern plumbing. On 10/13/05, Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Zeke, That would be 9 cents per shower with no exchanger inefficiency and comparing it with heating hot water with electricity. Interesting comparison. Throw another log or two in the fire, dude! They're renewable and CO2 neutral. Tom Irwin From: Zeke Yewdall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:06:05 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors So if we assume that energy to heat water costs about $15/Mbtu (or about 1.5 cents per MJ), then you've saved about 9 cents on that shower. Times four showers a day for a year, and you've saved $131 Since incoming water temp is usually more like 5 or 10C here in the northern US, you'd actually save a little more up here. Given an installed cost of $600 for a commercial greywater heat exchanger that looks like a simple payback of four years or so to me... On 10/13/05, Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word ridiculous in threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put seems in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture. Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature. ...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not. ...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application. Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources. http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p Mike Tom Irwin wrote: Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me. Tom Irwin From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Jim, There are commercial grey water heat
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
so how long is the energy payback if I don't install a system- and save the energy investment in all that copper smelting/fabrication? Zeke Yewdall wrote: So if we assume that energy to heat water costs about $15/Mbtu (or about 1.5 cents per MJ), then you've saved about 9 cents on that shower. Times four showers a day for a year, and you've saved $131 Since incoming water temp is usually more like 5 or 10C here in the northern US, you'd actually save a little more up here. Given an installed cost of $600 for a commercial greywater heat exchanger that looks like a simple payback of four years or so to me... On 10/13/05, Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word ridiculous in threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put seems in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture. Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature. ...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not. ...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application. Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources. http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p Mike Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me. Tom Irwin From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Jim, There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. They recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking showers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Check http://www.gfxtechnology.com/ There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the same price of $375 and there are tax incentives for these. I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since most homes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cut that about in half. Regards; John ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Good point. I find a value of 70GJ/tonne for the embodied energy of copper (http://buildlca.rmit.edu.au/CaseStud/EE/EEmethod.html#location-4) So a 50lb heat exchanger would use 1590 MJ to manufacture, which would take about 400 showers at 4MJ energy savings each in order to pay back -- less than a year probably. Not bad if it has a design lifetime of 20+ years. I suspect my numbers here only give an order of magnitude answer since I estimated the weight, and used a number for copper in building wiring, which was probably imprecise to begin with. I also suspect the true environmental/societal cost of copper could be a bit higher than purely measuring it's embodied energy, due to the toxicity of most metals mining/refining operations. On 10/13/05, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: so how long is the energy payback if I don't install a system- and save the energy investment in all that copper smelting/fabrication? Zeke Yewdall wrote: So if we assume that energy to heat water costs about $15/Mbtu (or about 1.5 cents per MJ), then you've saved about 9 cents on that shower. Times four showers a day for a year, and you've saved $131 Since incoming water temp is usually more like 5 or 10C here in the northern US, you'd actually save a little more up here. Given an installed cost of $600 for a commercial greywater heat exchanger that looks like a simple payback of four years or so to me... On 10/13/05, Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word ridiculous in threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put seems in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture. Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature. ...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not. ...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application. Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources. http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p Mike Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me. Tom Irwin From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Tom Irwin wrote: Hi John, Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me. Tom Irwin Not so sure I concurr with your conclusion of ridiculous. reclaiming some heat from shower water, imho, should be doable if they following conditions exist. You are redoing your shower anyway, you are actually thinking about hot water plumbing while doing it. You have full physical access. (links to the first condition). Seems like you could build part of the immediate drain output out of copper. On the underside, build and solder a multi tube manifold out of coldwater copper tubing. Put this in line with the intake to the hot water heating system. You are not going to recover much, However, with a shower running with a low-flow head of 1gpm, you are going to have to feed something like 1g back into the hot water heater every 2 minutes or so. And anything you can do to raise the temp of the input to the hot water heater, is going to result in less energy being consumed by the whole operation of taking a hot shower. Again, given that most of this work is going to be done anyway, the addition of some form of heat exchange on the drain is going to represent an expendature of some time, some solder, and some creativity. I think you might see an overall gain, given that the output will occur anyway. Now, tearing out an existing system and redoing it for this nominal gain I think results in a loss. Just a thought. (or rather, something I had planned when i redo the pumbing in the old house). ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
"h"? I reviewed your calculations andagree with them. Mine were based on a full (15.5 cu ft) bathtub (minus occupant). Specific Heat = 4.186J per gm, per deg C Massof Water = 439Kg Mass of Occupant = 70Kg Differential Temperature = 45-20 = 25 C degrees 4.186 x 369 x 10^3 x 25 =38.6 Megajoules = 37000BTU = 10.8KW Hour That's about6.5 of your showers. I'm OK with that.That's also about $1.08per bathequivalent savings ($.17 per shower based on $0.10 per kilowatt hourof electricity). If you are only heating in the winter and you shower daily (October through February), that's a savings of $0.17 x 30 days/mox 5mo =$25.5 per season. Now, many of us (myself included) see this as an interesting and worthwhile experiment as it stands, especially since the economic comparison to current electric rates is a debate in itself. However, I think you missed something (if not the whole point).If you aremost concerned with partially heating your home in the winterby collecting waste heat, your differential temperature should be based on the temperature of the water entering the house, in most cases being about 13 deg C. The corrected heat per shower is 28% more than you calculated (about $33.00 per season). This is only considering theidea in principle and not other possible applications (i.e. pumping the waste heat back into the domestic hot water supply all year long). You can call it anything you want. I certainly wouldn't call such an idea ridiculous. If you don't want to waste your time and "capital", then don't. In the meantime, I encourage everyone else in this list to keep the ideas coming! You all have both my encouragement and enthusiasm. Mike References: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/spht.html http://www.unit-conversion.info/energy.htmlTom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Just for clarification, all of my calculations and discussion were intended for heating the incoming DHW supply with the greywater heat, not space heating. Sorry about not being more specific earlier. Zeke On 10/13/05, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: h? I reviewed your calculations and agree with them. Mine were based on a full (15.5 cu ft) bathtub (minus occupant). Specific Heat = 4.186J per gm, per deg C Mass of Water = 439Kg Mass of Occupant = 70Kg Differential Temperature = 45-20 = 25 C degrees 4.186 x 369 x 10^3 x 25 = 38.6 Megajoules = 37000BTU = 10.8KW Hour That's about 6.5 of your showers. I'm OK with that. That's also about $1.08 per bath equivalent savings ($.17 per shower based on $0.10 per kilowatt hour of electricity). If you are only heating in the winter and you shower daily (October through February), that's a savings of $0.17 x 30 days/mo x 5mo = $25.5 per season. Now, many of us (myself included) see this as an interesting and worthwhile experiment as it stands, especially since the economic comparison to current electric rates is a debate in itself. However, I think you missed something (if not the whole point). If you are most concerned with partially heating your home in the winter by collecting waste heat, your differential temperature should be based on the temperature of the water entering the house, in most cases being about 13 deg C. The corrected heat per shower is 28% more than you calculated (about $33.00 per season). This is only considering the idea in principle and not other possible applications (i.e. pumping the waste heat back into the domestic hot water supply all year long). You can call it anything you want. I certainly wouldn't call such an idea ridiculous. If you don't want to waste your time and capital, then don't. In the meantime, I encourage everyone else in this list to keep the ideas coming! You all have both my encouragement and enthusiasm. Mike References: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/spht.html http://www.unit-conversion.info/energy.html Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Zeke Yewdall wrote: The heat exchanger path for the incoming cold water is indeed much smaller with a higher pressure loss (usually, a small spiral tube wrapped around the greywater drain pipe), however it is clean water, and is no different than the heat exchanger for any on demand water heater. -- Just a quick note: I considered, then dismissed the spiral wrap in favor of a multi-tube manifold, thus: /-\ -- \--/ (sorry but that's the idea) soldered to the underside of the copper drainpipe, as it occured to me that there isn't going to be a whole lot of warm water on the top of the drain pipe where it runs near-horizontal, (slowing the drain to recover more energy) before dropping off vertically. If I spiral wrapped the drain pipe, I'd be putting what heat I recover to work warming the colder side of the pipe, and might end up with a warmer drain pipe with a more even heat distribution, but no real gain of heat into the intake path. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Thanks for the clarification Zeke. I probably missed the first few posts in this thread and lost the original intention. In any event, my position on this discussion hasn't changed. Because of the bits of energy wasted and the potential energy not yet used, I think that we can agree that, to at leastsome extent,our post-petroleum energy future will lead us in many directions.Places like JTF and this forumare a valuable resource for consolidatingideas for that purpose, and I react strongly (perhaps too strongly) when ideas are summarily dismissed or labeled ridiculous (for example). MikeZeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just for clarification, all of my calculations and discussion wereintended for heating the incoming DHW supply with the greywater heat,not space heating. Sorry about not being more specific earlier.ZekeOn 10/13/05, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: "h"? I reviewed your calculations and agree with them. Mine were based on a full (15.5 cu ft) bathtub (minus occupant). Specific Heat = 4.186J per gm, per deg C Mass of Water = 439Kg Mass of Occupant = 70Kg Differential Temperature = 45-20 = 25 C degrees 4.186 x 369 x 10^3 x 25 = 38.6 Megajoules = 37000BTU = 10.8KW Hour That's about 6.5 of your showers. I'm OK with that. That's also about $1.08 per bath equivalent savings ($.17 per shower based on $0.10 per kilowatt hour of electricity). If you are only heating in the winter and you shower daily (October through February), that's a savings of $0.17 x 30 days/mo x 5mo = $25.5 per season. Now, many of us (myself included) see this as an interesting and worthwhile experiment as it stands, especially since the economic comparison to current electric rates is a debate in itself. However, I think you missed something (if not the whole point). If you are most concerned with partially heating your home in the winter by collecting waste heat, your differential temperature should be based on the temperature of the water entering the house, in most cases being about 13 deg C. The corrected heat per shower is 28% more than you calculated (about $33.00 per season). This is only considering the idea in principle and not other possible applications (i.e. pumping the waste heat back into the domestic hot water supply all year long). You can call it anything you want. I certainly wouldn't call such an idea ridiculous. If you don't want to waste your time and "capital", then don't. In the meantime, I encourage everyone else in this list to keep the ideas coming! You all have both my encouragement and enthusiasm. Mike References: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/spht.html http://www.unit-conversion.info/energy.html Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Hi Mike, Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat. hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub. Tom Irwin___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Jim, There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. They recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking showers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Check http://www.gfxtechnology.com/ There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the same price of $375 and there are tax incentives for these. I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since most homes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cut that about in half. Regards; John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:15 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Hi folks, I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are: 1) Solar collectors 2) Grey water heat going down the drain Can anyone give me some pointers in these two areas? Thanks in advance Jim Wisdom to all ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Hello Jim, Gray water heat would require heat exchangers for very little return. I'd go for the solar collectors, the ones for hot water can collect a lot more heat. Where are you located? Tom Irwin From: JJJN [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:14:40 -0300Subject: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectorsHi folks,I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are:1) Solar collectors2) Grey water heat going down the drainCan anyone give me some pointers in these two areas?Thanks in advanceJimWisdom to all___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Hello Tom, We are in Eastern Montana, Cold but sunny winters. Would antifreeze work as the fluid? Tom Irwin wrote: Hello Jim, Gray water heat would require heat exchangers for very little return. I'd go for the solar collectors, the ones for hot water can collect a lot more heat. Where are you located? Tom Irwin *From:* JJJN [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:14:40 -0300 *Subject:* [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Hi folks, I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are: 1) Solar collectors 2) Grey water heat going down the drain Can anyone give me some pointers in these two areas? Thanks in advance Jim Wisdom to all ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Jim, did you search the archives? search for solar hot water heater We've been discussing this a fair amount lately, several people posted great recommendations and reference website urls. Take care, Ken On 10/11/05, JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Tom, We are in Eastern Montana, Cold but sunny winters. Would antifreeze work as the fluid? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????
Hi Jim, Yes, proplyene or ethylene glycol will work but then you need a heat exchanger in the system for hot water use. If you are just using it for space heating then you wouldn't need the exchanger. Just make sure your pipe joints are well sealed.Can you use wood as a backup or integrated system? Tom Irwin From: JJJN [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:54:08 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectorsHello Tom,We are in Eastern Montana, Cold but sunny winters. Would antifreeze work as the fluid?Tom Irwin wrote: Hello Jim, Gray water heat would require heat exchangers for very little return. I'd go for the solar collectors, the ones for hot water can collect a lot more heat. Where are you located? Tom Irwin *From:* JJJN [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:14:40 -0300 *Subject:* [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors Hi folks, I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are: 1) Solar collectors 2) Grey water heat going down the drain Can anyone give me some pointers in these two areas? Thanks in advance Jim Wisdom to all ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
