Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
--- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality One question about this testing: Aleks says, thin layer chromatography (tlc) can be used to determine conversion rate and hence quality. Has anybody done this ? What kind of eluent or mix is best to use for this ? Thanks Rainer __ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
what kind of a methanol recovery rate can I expect once I start doing that? Depends which stage you do it at, and what you want to do with the by-product. Easiest is taking back the methanol straight after processing, before separating the by-product, but this is inclined to cause a reverse reaction in the biodiesel. Still, you can get a lot back before that happens, especially with a vacuum. Otherwise, about 70% of the excess methanol ends up in the glycerine by-product, and about 30% in the biodiesel. A simple condenser will get most of the 30% back from the biodiesel without too much trouble. As for the by-product fraction, if you have a market for potassium fertiliser and/or industrial-grade glycerine (about 80-90% pure) which makes it worth the cost and time, it's best to separate the by-product into it's components first, which is hard (or impossible) once the methanol's been removed. After separation the methanol is left in the glycerine fraction and can be removed then. See: http://journeytoforever.org//biodiesel_glycsep.html Separating glycerine/FFAs Whether separated or not not, I'm not sure how much vacuum you'd need, but with heating alone the by-product or the separated glycerine would have to go to about 150 deg C to get most of the methanol back. We found it's not really economical to go much beyond about 105 deg C, which does get a lot back, but far from all of it. A better way is to use a thin-film evaporator, as Todd has recommended. I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? Usually it's cloudy at first. It settles after a while. Ours is usually clear by the next day. will the cloudiness wash out? Yes. does that mean that my reaction is incomplete? Not necessarily. should I add more lye and methanol and reprocess? A better way of finding that out is this: Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality should I have titrated in the first place? Well, I'd say yes. I still think you're starting in the wrong place. Up to you, of course. Best wishes Keith John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
bottom, a thick white layer in the middle and a milky yellow layer on the top. interestingly my siphoned off biodiesel separated again over the following night into a perfectly clear yellow layer on the bottom and a milky yellow layer on the top. I have posted some images here: www.lightlink.com/jonny5/biofuel/ you will have to excuse the complete lack of processing on the images, I don't have my tools installed on the new laptop yet. I think that you are right that I am starting in the wrong place here. I am going to do another batch this afternoon using the pelly method and see how it works out. John Guttridge. Keith Addison wrote: Hello John what kind of a methanol recovery rate can I expect once I start doing that? Depends which stage you do it at, and what you want to do with the by-product. Easiest is taking back the methanol straight after processing, before separating the by-product, but this is inclined to cause a reverse reaction in the biodiesel. Still, you can get a lot back before that happens, especially with a vacuum. Otherwise, about 70% of the excess methanol ends up in the glycerine by-product, and about 30% in the biodiesel. A simple condenser will get most of the 30% back from the biodiesel without too much trouble. As for the by-product fraction, if you have a market for potassium fertiliser and/or industrial-grade glycerine (about 80-90% pure) which makes it worth the cost and time, it's best to separate the by-product into it's components first, which is hard (or impossible) once the methanol's been removed. After separation the methanol is left in the glycerine fraction and can be removed then. See: http://journeytoforever.org//biodiesel_glycsep.html Separating glycerine/FFAs Whether separated or not not, I'm not sure how much vacuum you'd need, but with heating alone the by-product or the separated glycerine would have to go to about 150 deg C to get most of the methanol back. We found it's not really economical to go much beyond about 105 deg C, which does get a lot back, but far from all of it. A better way is to use a thin-film evaporator, as Todd has recommended. I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? Usually it's cloudy at first. It settles after a while. Ours is usually clear by the next day. will the cloudiness wash out? Yes. does that mean that my reaction is incomplete? Not necessarily. should I add more lye and methanol and reprocess? A better way of finding that out is this: Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality should I have titrated in the first place? Well, I'd say yes. I still think you're starting in the wrong place. Up to you, of course. Best wishes Keith John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
John, I am a novice at this too so others should feel free to criticize my remarks. I would suggest you titrate. This is not so easy at this stage because any free fatty acids in your fuel as you went into the base process are now soap, that is they are neutralized with Na.To convert them back to free fatty acids, I have taken say 10 ml of the product, and mixed it with vinegar strong enough to drop the pH back down to say 3 or 4. This will strip off the sodium. Separate this 10 ml of oil from the vinegar. Now you can titrate as if it were any waste or new oil. I think you are correct in assuming that you should have titrated in the first place. If you find that the free fatty acid is above 1 g/l equivalent NaOH then you will need to be careful when washing not to add much water to the first few washes. Check out the University of Idaho process. They use 5.5% to start out with and mix it up before the glycerin phase is separated off. Then settle for as long as it takes to get clear. But that process assumes you have the correct amount of NaOH or KOH added to your mix in the first place. Since you did not titrate first, you may not have added enough NaOH to neutralize the FFA's as well as catalyze the reaction. So the reaction may not have gone to completion. If you think that that is a possibility, You could always separate the glycerin, titrate as above, add 1/4 the original methanol and enough NaOH to both neutralize as well as catalyze. Then re-react. This second product will probably not drop any glycerin unless there was a lot of unreacted oil. I would probably let this batch settle and make a new batch with proper titration. You will learn from the new batch how to deal with the old. John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] com cc: Sent by: Subject: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results biofuel-bounces@ wwia.org 10/21/2004 09:16 AM Please respond to biofuel what kind of a methanol recovery rate can I expect once I start doing that? I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? will the cloudiness wash out? does that mean that my reaction is incomplete? should I add more lye and methanol and reprocess? should I have titrated in the first place? John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
downsized version ? You got a Winzip? I could fire them off in a matter of minutes if you like. Let me know Luc PS: Congrats on getting started on your way to making good quality BD. - Original Message - From: John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results I did the quality test and it resulted in a milky white layer on the bottom, a thick white layer in the middle and a milky yellow layer on the top. interestingly my siphoned off biodiesel separated again over the following night into a perfectly clear yellow layer on the bottom and a milky yellow layer on the top. I have posted some images here: www.lightlink.com/jonny5/biofuel/ you will have to excuse the complete lack of processing on the images, I don't have my tools installed on the new laptop yet. I think that you are right that I am starting in the wrong place here. I am going to do another batch this afternoon using the pelly method and see how it works out. John Guttridge. Keith Addison wrote: Hello John what kind of a methanol recovery rate can I expect once I start doing that? Depends which stage you do it at, and what you want to do with the by-product. Easiest is taking back the methanol straight after processing, before separating the by-product, but this is inclined to cause a reverse reaction in the biodiesel. Still, you can get a lot back before that happens, especially with a vacuum. Otherwise, about 70% of the excess methanol ends up in the glycerine by-product, and about 30% in the biodiesel. A simple condenser will get most of the 30% back from the biodiesel without too much trouble. As for the by-product fraction, if you have a market for potassium fertiliser and/or industrial-grade glycerine (about 80-90% pure) which makes it worth the cost and time, it's best to separate the by-product into it's components first, which is hard (or impossible) once the methanol's been removed. After separation the methanol is left in the glycerine fraction and can be removed then. See: http://journeytoforever.org//biodiesel_glycsep.html Separating glycerine/FFAs Whether separated or not not, I'm not sure how much vacuum you'd need, but with heating alone the by-product or the separated glycerine would have to go to about 150 deg C to get most of the methanol back. We found it's not really economical to go much beyond about 105 deg C, which does get a lot back, but far from all of it. A better way is to use a thin-film evaporator, as Todd has recommended. I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? Usually it's cloudy at first. It settles after a while. Ours is usually clear by the next day. will the cloudiness wash out? Yes. does that mean that my reaction is incomplete? Not necessarily. should I add more lye and methanol and reprocess? A better way of finding that out is this: Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality should I have titrated in the first place? Well, I'd say yes. I still think you're starting in the wrong place. Up to you, of course. Best wishes Keith John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
before each go of it. Once you have your catalyst amount determined re-do the titration to be sure you got it right the first time and use the Better Titration method. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#bettertitrate I have found that a VERY good electronic PH meter and scale are invaluable. They help eliminate those two areas of potential variants. The other sore spot I found to be heat. The processing heat should be 55C (130F), and not considerably lower. A good thermometer helps. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye All about lye and the next one too How much lye gives you the groundwork for either NaOH or KOH as a catalyst per volume of mathanol. I have not attempted the two stage method yet nor am I intending to until the one stage has become perfectly clear and I am getting consistant positive results. Everything in it's time. Luc - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results John, I am a novice at this too so others should feel free to criticize my remarks. I would suggest you titrate. This is not so easy at this stage because any free fatty acids in your fuel as you went into the base process are now soap, that is they are neutralized with Na.To convert them back to free fatty acids, I have taken say 10 ml of the product, and mixed it with vinegar strong enough to drop the pH back down to say 3 or 4. This will strip off the sodium. Separate this 10 ml of oil from the vinegar. Now you can titrate as if it were any waste or new oil. I think you are correct in assuming that you should have titrated in the first place. If you find that the free fatty acid is above 1 g/l equivalent NaOH then you will need to be careful when washing not to add much water to the first few washes. Check out the University of Idaho process. They use 5.5% to start out with and mix it up before the glycerin phase is separated off. Then settle for as long as it takes to get clear. But that process assumes you have the correct amount of NaOH or KOH added to your mix in the first place. Since you did not titrate first, you may not have added enough NaOH to neutralize the FFA's as well as catalyze the reaction. So the reaction may not have gone to completion. If you think that that is a possibility, You could always separate the glycerin, titrate as above, add 1/4 the original methanol and enough NaOH to both neutralize as well as catalyze. Then re-react. This second product will probably not drop any glycerin unless there was a lot of unreacted oil. I would probably let this batch settle and make a new batch with proper titration. You will learn from the new batch how to deal with the old. John Guttridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] com cc: Sent by: Subject: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results biofuel-bounces@ wwia.org 10/21/2004 09:16 AM Please respond to biofuel what kind of a methanol recovery rate can I expect once I start doing that? I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? will the cloudiness wash out? does that mean that my reaction is incomplete? should I add more lye and methanol and reprocess? should I have titrated in the first place? John Guttridge ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery/first batch results
I got the product of my first conversion this morning and it looks straw yellow but a bit cloudy, should I let it sit to clarify or should I wash it? You will need to do your meth recovery before you wash it as washing will remove the meth into the wash water where its harder to recover. will the cloudiness wash out? that cloudiness is a number of things, soaps, some glycerol. If you aren't doing meth recovery then I would just let it settle for a day or so (longer if you can). It allows small quantities of glycerol to settle out and makes for easier washing. If you are recovering then run your recovery then let it set. should I have titrated in the first place? You should follow the instructions for which every process you're using. Titration is a useful tool but doesn't necessarly make your process work any better or worse unless you understand how to intrepret and apply the data. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
