Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
> On a related note, did it bother anyone else in the 80's when people would > refer to Atari or Nintendo cartridges as "tapes?" Ugh, for similar reasons, > I don't refer to Intel-based IBM clones only as PCs. Just because it was > common doesn't make it right. Well, talking about pet peeves, if I get one more email with someone referring to C64 or Amiga disk images as "roms" I'll go postal. Karl Kuras http://www.trantornator.com -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Ah, but let's keep in mind that we are not limited to common vernacular. We are the "experts" in this field. Just as doctors, mechanics, etc. have their own words and terms to discuss their expertise, so should we. These words need not be known or understood by the layman or the Oxford Dictionary. And just like we made up our own grading scale, we shouldn't be afraid to make up terms when it helps clarify things for those that really care. On a related note, did it bother anyone else in the 80's when people would refer to Atari or Nintendo cartridges as "tapes?" Ugh, for similar reasons, I don't refer to Intel-based IBM clones only as PCs. Just because it was common doesn't make it right. Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 3:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk wrote: > > Oh yeah! :-) Well PC != IBM. PC stands for Personal Computer. Apple, TI, > Atari, C64, etc. are all PCs. So if we're talking semantics, you should > refer to them like I do on my site -- "Intel-compatibles" or "Intels" for > short. Of course, back in the 80's, they were called "IBM-compatibles," but > in hindsight, "Intel-compatibles" is a more appropriate term. This is, of course, what I meant. (I should know better when opening my mouth in this forum :-) When I talk about PC games, I am referring to IBM PC (and compatibles) games. I know that PC means Personal Computer, but after 20 years of slang usage, I think it's safe to say that a PC game means an IBM PC game. This may suck to some people, but I gave up the usage fight a long time ago when the Oxford Dictionary starting putting stuff like "Doh" and "thru" into the dictionary (I am not making that up, BTW). So I won't apologize for abbreviating IBM PC as PC, and I don't have any immediate plans to change my habits. If you REALLY want to talk semantics, I don't ever remember "Intel-compatibles" being part of common vernacular... -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
> Hugh Falk wrote: > > > > Oh yeah! :-) Well PC != IBM. PC stands for Personal Computer. Apple, TI, > > Atari, C64, etc. are all PCs. So if we're talking semantics, you should > > refer to them like I do on my site -- "Intel-compatibles" or "Intels" for > > short. Of course, back in the 80's, they were called "IBM-compatibles," but > > in hindsight, "Intel-compatibles" is a more appropriate term. > > This is, of course, what I meant. (I should know better when opening my > mouth in this forum :-) When I talk about PC games, I am referring to > IBM PC (and compatibles) games. I know that PC means Personal Computer, > but after 20 years of slang usage, I think it's safe to say that a PC > game means an IBM PC game. This may suck to some people, but I gave up > the usage fight a long time ago when the Oxford Dictionary starting > putting stuff like "Doh" and "thru" into the dictionary (I am not making > that up, BTW). So I won't apologize for abbreviating IBM PC as PC, and > I don't have any immediate plans to change my habits. > > If you REALLY want to talk semantics, I don't ever remember > "Intel-compatibles" being part of common vernacular... OK... the gauntlet has been tossed Let the SEMANTIC WARS BEGIN!!! (sarcasm added at no extra cost) :) Karl Kuras http://www.trantornator.com -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Hugh Falk wrote: > > Oh yeah! :-) Well PC != IBM. PC stands for Personal Computer. Apple, TI, > Atari, C64, etc. are all PCs. So if we're talking semantics, you should > refer to them like I do on my site -- "Intel-compatibles" or "Intels" for > short. Of course, back in the 80's, they were called "IBM-compatibles," but > in hindsight, "Intel-compatibles" is a more appropriate term. This is, of course, what I meant. (I should know better when opening my mouth in this forum :-) When I talk about PC games, I am referring to IBM PC (and compatibles) games. I know that PC means Personal Computer, but after 20 years of slang usage, I think it's safe to say that a PC game means an IBM PC game. This may suck to some people, but I gave up the usage fight a long time ago when the Oxford Dictionary starting putting stuff like "Doh" and "thru" into the dictionary (I am not making that up, BTW). So I won't apologize for abbreviating IBM PC as PC, and I don't have any immediate plans to change my habits. If you REALLY want to talk semantics, I don't ever remember "Intel-compatibles" being part of common vernacular... -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
RE: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Oh yeah! :-) Well PC != IBM. PC stands for Personal Computer. Apple, TI, Atari, C64, etc. are all PCs. So if we're talking semantics, you should refer to them like I do on my site -- "Intel-compatibles" or "Intels" for short. Of course, back in the 80's, they were called "IBM-compatibles," but in hindsight, "Intel-compatibles" is a more appropriate term. Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 12:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors Hugh Falk wrote: > > Okay, well the word has come back from Jon, and the answer > is...inconclusive. He said there wasn't one when he left Epyx to form Free > Fall Associates in 81 (which makes sense, of course). However, there could > have been one made later on. That is exactly the answer I got from the programmer of the original Rescue on Fractalus. And when I asked Will Harvey about the PC version of Music Construction Set, he said "There's a PC version?" This is why the PC versions of these programs are even more rare than the rare games they were ported from. > I do know that there was a C-64 version made in 83 so it's possible that a > DOS version was also made. You mean PC. PC != DOS. For hard-core PC collectors, this is significant. For all you other guys, never mind ;-) -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
>> That's not quite the truth. Baldur's Gate 2 sells, doesn't it? And it's 2D. >>True, but it took some 3D products first to qualify this. >What do you mean? That it took several 3d "mistakes" for people to see that >2d was OK too? I think he means that it took several 3D games to make the genre viable in the public mindshare again. Remember real RPG's almost died out completely in the mid-90's. We had aweful games such as Ultima 8 (and we don't need to start a string trying to justify that titles worthlessness, Richard Gariott's public apology should suffice), and the end of the gold box series and other great franchises, just lead to a complete dirth of RPGs, once the bread and butter of the PC. If he hadn't had a few 3D RPG and RPG/like games in the mid-90's, I don't think Baldur's Gate and other games (the other D&D products for example) would have achieved the success they do today. The computer users needed to be shown that there was in fact life AFTER Quake. Now if they could just somehow do the same for graphic adventures. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
> I was one of the first 10 Abandonware websites, and >I built up the original AB ring with a search engine, mailing list, >etc. I was also, not by coincidence, the first AB site taken down by >the IDSA. My site was up in 1997. Well I can't say anything personally... but by 1997, the abandonware movement (not called that at the time) was old. I remember it being quite prolific (no names please) :) Already by early 1995. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leonard wrote:
>Pedro Quaresma wrote:
>
> >Yes, but that's not the point; as I explained earlier, the PC versions
> >are signficantly different, rare, or both. Hence the need to get them.
>
> Usually the AppleII versions of most games are more rare
>In what world do you live in? :-)
In a world with more valuable apple games than PC games :)
> The Apple II had a HUGE pirate
>movement all throughout its life.
Of course; Apple games are very easy to crack.
> That's why practically every single
>Apple II game is on Asimov. The PC didn't have a significant pirate
>following until about 1986, but games date back to 1982 (1981 if you
>listen to some pundits). That's why hardly any early PC games are on
>various Abandonware sites.
>Unless, of course, you're talking about the packaged/boxed software, in
>which case I'd agree with you past 1985, and disagree with you pre-1985.
I was talking about the package as a whole, once again. Not the software
itself. And yes, I still think it's still more rare for the pre-1985 Apple
than the PC. Akalabeth RG, Akalabeth CPC, Ultima CPC.
Come on, these triunvirate makes the whole difference >:)
> > >Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy
of
> > >the software, then how do you expect to download it?
> >
> > Only extremely exceptional games aren't downloadable from the net. On
> those
> > games, of course, having a floppy is extremely important
>
> >Bingo.
>
> But they're the exceptions. There aren't that many.
>You must not be familiar with the early PC gaming industry. There are
>easliy a thousand PC games/ports made before 1990 that aren't freely
>downloadble on the 'net. Why do you think my cause is so dedicated?
>;-)
A thousand? Well, if not on the net, they must be available somewhere :)
I've yet only to find a certain PC RPG I've never seen anywhere, not even
on the net: "Alternate Reality: The Dungeon"
> >Who do you think seeded the original Abandonware community anyway? ;-)
>
> Lee? Hugh? Karl? Chris?... H... no idea >:)
>No, not them! ME!
Who? >:]
> I was one of the first 10 Abandonware websites, and
>I built up the original AB ring with a search engine, mailing list,
>etc. I was also, not by coincidence, the first AB site taken down by
>the IDSA. My site was up in 1997.
Did you crack the games? Or just had them on the web?
> > >But of
> > >course that won't happen, since Origin is finally dead, gone, and
> > >buried. :-(
> >
> > Not Origin, but Origin-as-we-know-it. :(
>
> >No, really, it really is dead. They laid everyone else off, and they
> >stopped using the Origin name/logo on packaging late last year. But
> >take heart; Garriot is re-hiring a lot of people for his new company.
>
> Yes, and they've taken a "great" project: they're supporting this
> super-crappy online asian RPG, for it to make a "triumphal" entrance on
the
> US market. Yeah, right.
>Oh, I don't agree with their RPG stuff... but who knows, maybe 3 years
>down the road when they have some seed money they can come up with
>Ultima X.
They can't, "Ultima" is now an EA trademark...
> That's not quite the truth. Baldur's Gate 2 sells, doesn't it? And it's
2D.
>True, but it took some 3D products first to qualify this.
What do you mean? That it took several 3d "mistakes" for people to see that
2d was OK too?
>In a mini-return to that subject, can you tell me why you didn't like
>Baulder's Gate 2? Or more specifically, what you wish it had and what
>you wish it hadn't? (Because I just started playing and after 3 hours
>of gameplay I'm not disliking it)
I wasn't disliking it either after 3 hours :) I will mail you privately and
let you know why I think BG2 is so average and therefore doesn't deserve
all the hype.
> "Quakers" love 3d, so some "geniuses" in game companies start directing
> their efforts to please them too. _That_ was their mistake... BG1, BG2,
> Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment, Diablo 2, Fallout 1&2, they all sold
> pretty decently.
>True, but it took some 3D products first to qualify this. ;-)
Speaking of an easy 3d comparison, have you seen M&M6 (2d simulating 3d)
and M&M7 (3d)? Now which one has the better graphics? I'd say M&M6, but
most will probably answer M&M7 ("it's 3d" ;))
> Speaking of BG2, can you give me your email, so I can send you my first
> "direct comparison"?
>Sure: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Maybe my questions above would be best answered in email.
I'll start preparing a mail right after I finish this one
> > Because they were first, they ran into a ton of issues and
> >problems. They were penalized, and the product lines abruptly ended.
> >It's a shame to be penalized for being first to market with something.
>
> As I said above, the problem is that they didn't stick to their fans, but
> to other's games fans.
>That's very astute (perceptive) -- and also, unfortunately, a fact of
>life in an industry where 1% of the market buying your game is
>considered a huge success :-( The market
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > >Yes, but that's not the point; as I explained earlier, the PC versions > >are signficantly different, rare, or both. Hence the need to get them. > > Usually the AppleII versions of most games are more rare In what world do you live in? :-) The Apple II had a HUGE pirate movement all throughout its life. That's why practically every single Apple II game is on Asimov. The PC didn't have a significant pirate following until about 1986, but games date back to 1982 (1981 if you listen to some pundits). That's why hardly any early PC games are on various Abandonware sites. Unless, of course, you're talking about the packaged/boxed software, in which case I'd agree with you past 1985, and disagree with you pre-1985. > > >Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy of > > >the software, then how do you expect to download it? > > > > Only extremely exceptional games aren't downloadable from the net. On > those > > games, of course, having a floppy is extremely important > > >Bingo. > > But they're the exceptions. There aren't that many. You must not be familiar with the early PC gaming industry. There are easliy a thousand PC games/ports made before 1990 that aren't freely downloadble on the 'net. Why do you think my cause is so dedicated? ;-) > >Who do you think seeded the original Abandonware community anyway? ;-) > > Lee? Hugh? Karl? Chris?... H... no idea >:) No, not them! ME! I was one of the first 10 Abandonware websites, and I built up the original AB ring with a search engine, mailing list, etc. I was also, not by coincidence, the first AB site taken down by the IDSA. My site was up in 1997. > > >But of > > >course that won't happen, since Origin is finally dead, gone, and > > >buried. :-( > > > > Not Origin, but Origin-as-we-know-it. :( > > >No, really, it really is dead. They laid everyone else off, and they > >stopped using the Origin name/logo on packaging late last year. But > >take heart; Garriot is re-hiring a lot of people for his new company. > > Yes, and they've taken a "great" project: they're supporting this > super-crappy online asian RPG, for it to make a "triumphal" entrance on the > US market. Yeah, right. Oh, I don't agree with their RPG stuff... but who knows, maybe 3 years down the road when they have some seed money they can come up with Ultima X. > That's not quite the truth. Baldur's Gate 2 sells, doesn't it? And it's 2D. True, but it took some 3D products first to qualify this. In a mini-return to that subject, can you tell me why you didn't like Baulder's Gate 2? Or more specifically, what you wish it had and what you wish it hadn't? (Because I just started playing and after 3 hours of gameplay I'm not disliking it) > "Quakers" love 3d, so some "geniuses" in game companies start directing > their efforts to please them too. _That_ was their mistake... BG1, BG2, > Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment, Diablo 2, Fallout 1&2, they all sold > pretty decently. True, but it took some 3D products first to qualify this. ;-) > Speaking of BG2, can you give me your email, so I can send you my first > "direct comparison"? Sure: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maybe my questions above would be best answered in email. > > Because they were first, they ran into a ton of issues and > >problems. They were penalized, and the product lines abruptly ended. > >It's a shame to be penalized for being first to market with something. > > As I said above, the problem is that they didn't stick to their fans, but > to other's games fans. That's very astute (perceptive) -- and also, unfortunately, a fact of life in an industry where 1% of the market buying your game is considered a huge success :-( The market is way too saturated :-( > Also, why in the world are great game creators selling their companies to > other bigger ones? Don't tell me RG was so poor he just _had_ to sell to > EA, or that Williams had to sell Sierra to AT&T, or van Caneghem NWC to 3DO > (I wonder how he's surviving so well in there, btw) RG/EA: Many at the company didn't like it, but they needed the development capital to make bigger and better games. It was the beginning of their downfall (exactly why I'm still trying to figure out), but it was also the beginning of their most technologically advanced projects (Wing Commander 3, Strike Commander, Ultima 7, etc.) They wrote their own 3D code (Strike Commander had so much advanced 3D code that then-modern machines couldn't run it quickly), wrote their own memory extenders (which is why it's so damn hard to run U7 on a modern box), etc. and nobody else was doing that at the time. They were trying to innovate, and they succeeded in some areas. Williams: He had said many times before how sad it was that the market had become so saturated, and that you had to claw your way to a 0.5% market share. He didn't sell Sierra because they needed money; he just didn't want to be a part of it any m
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
LKS> Of course it's collectible! You never know when you'll find the disks LKS> loose somewhere. Surely you can't tell me you'd pass over a "pink LKS> frisbee" or Suspended mask package just because the disks were LKS> missing. Obviously a package with disks is worth more than one LKS> without and a one with working disks should be worth more than one LKS> with non-working disks. JL>The Suspended frisbee is a special case -- of course I'd grab it because JL>everyone else is trying to. But I guarantee you I would probably use it JL>as barter or trade material, because EVERYONE has Suspended. So I had the intention of creating that "hobbyt" trademark, but ended up making another one, the "pink frisbee"! :) Hope it continues to catch on! ;) Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
Re: [SWCollect] trademark for collectors
Jim Leaonrd wrote: >Pedro Quaresma wrote: > > >No, but it *is* the floppies that make Zinderneuf or Fractalus or > >CCnChomp rare. I have Zinderneuf; I have strong info that CCnChomp > >exists; Fractalus is an unconfirmed rumor. Honestly, the boxes mean > >jack squat to me right now about those PC titles ;-) > > That's different. You probably have that specific game for other > platform(s), right? >Yes, but that's not the point; as I explained earlier, the PC versions >are signficantly different, rare, or both. Hence the need to get them. Usually the AppleII versions of most games are more rare > >Not for stuff that isn't on the 'net! If someone doesn't make a copy of > >the software, then how do you expect to download it? > > Only extremely exceptional games aren't downloadable from the net. On those > games, of course, having a floppy is extremely important >Bingo. But they're the exceptions. There aren't that many. >Who do you think seeded the original Abandonware community anyway? ;-) Lee? Hugh? Karl? Chris?... H... no idea >:) > >But of > >course that won't happen, since Origin is finally dead, gone, and > >buried. :-( > > Not Origin, but Origin-as-we-know-it. :( >No, really, it really is dead. They laid everyone else off, and they >stopped using the Origin name/logo on packaging late last year. But >take heart; Garriot is re-hiring a lot of people for his new company. Yes, and they've taken a "great" project: they're supporting this super-crappy online asian RPG, for it to make a "triumphal" entrance on the US market. Yeah, right. > I hope RG eventually makes another RPG that dignifies his past. >Same, as Ultima IX certainly wasn't... So wasn't VIII... it's a shame, they'd been gradually going downhill >That's actually not fair. The final chapters in several long series, >King's Quest and Ultima, were 3D because that's what the market >demanded. That's not quite the truth. Baldur's Gate 2 sells, doesn't it? And it's 2D. "Quakers" love 3d, so some "geniuses" in game companies start directing their efforts to please them too. _That_ was their mistake... BG1, BG2, Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment, Diablo 2, Fallout 1&2, they all sold pretty decently. Speaking of BG2, can you give me your email, so I can send you my first "direct comparison"? > Because they were first, they ran into a ton of issues and >problems. They were penalized, and the product lines abruptly ended. >It's a shame to be penalized for being first to market with something. As I said above, the problem is that they didn't stick to their fans, but to other's games fans. Also, why in the world are great game creators selling their companies to other bigger ones? Don't tell me RG was so poor he just _had_ to sell to EA, or that Williams had to sell Sierra to AT&T, or van Caneghem NWC to 3DO (I wonder how he's surviving so well in there, btw) Pedro R. Quaresma [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "All your base are belong to us" http://www.salvador-caetano.pt http://www.globalshop.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
