Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

Tino, I believe you can start just with [Draft]... thread where you can present the draft of your proposal. Then, after you'll get opinions and after the draft will be polished, you can form an 'official' proposal. For now I didn't hear if someone else wanted to create that proposal. So I don'

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> Tino, would you like to form an 'official' proposal for this(newlines as > separators) feature? As I can see, there is a much support in community for > this idea, but no one said yet he/she will create a proposal for this.(or I > just missed this) I feel honored, but I guess there are others

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

On 14.05.2016 20:53, Tino Heth via swift-evolution wrote: The idea of using newlines as separators (making "," obsolete, like ";" in other situations) imho is much nicer and would address the same issues that this proposal tries to improve. Tino, would you like to form an 'official' proposal fo

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

>> Would you then recommend removing trailing comma support for collections on >> the same principle? me too — so, for the review-part: -0.5, no trailing commas (it's not a full -1 as long as I'm not forced to add those trailing commas) I don't think they are convenient, and even if that is wron

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

-1. This has always looked like a typo to me. -Matt > On May 10, 2016, at 11:53, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution > wrote: > > Hello Swift community, > > The review of "SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples" > begins now and runs through May 16. The proposal is avai

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

Having used, more or less continuously for my 20 years as a professional programmer, both a language that allows trailing commas and one that does not, I come down pretty strongly on the side of allowing trailing commas (for all the reasons already stated in this thread). If it means requiring a ne

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 13, 2016, at 10:46 AM, Erica Sadun wrote: > > >> On May 13, 2016, at 11:29 AM, Joe Groff wrote: >> >>> >>> On May 13, 2016, at 7:04 AM, Erica Sadun wrote: >>> >>> On May 12, 2016, at 11:01 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution >>> wrote: On May 12, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Joe Gro

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 13, 2016, at 11:29 AM, Joe Groff wrote: > >> >> On May 13, 2016, at 7:04 AM, Erica Sadun wrote: >> >> On May 12, 2016, at 11:01 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution >> wrote: >>> On May 12, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Joe Groff wrote: > You’re arguing that you want to read Swift code w

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

Support. *all or nothing* :-) On 13.05.2016 20:29, Joe Groff via swift-evolution wrote: I don't see why we need to micromanage the situations where trailing commas are allowed. That's just unnecessarily increasing the fractal complexity of the language. We've delegated other style choices like

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 13, 2016, at 7:32 AM, Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution > wrote: > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On May 13, 2016, at 9:19 AM, Vladimir.S wrote: >> >>> On 13.05.2016 16:32, Matthew Johnson wrote: >>> I am, +1 on allowing new lines instead of commas. I suggest you pursue a >>> pr

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 13, 2016, at 7:04 AM, Erica Sadun wrote: > > On May 12, 2016, at 11:01 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution > wrote: >> On May 12, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Joe Groff wrote: You’re arguing that you want to read Swift code written like this? >>> >>> I wouldn't mind it. >> >> I persona

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 13, 2016, at 4:04 PM, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution > wrote: > >> On May 12, 2016, at 11:01 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution >> wrote: >> On May 12, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Joe Groff wrote: You’re arguing that you want to read Swift code written like this? >>> >>> I wouldn't

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

Sent from my iPad > On May 13, 2016, at 9:19 AM, Vladimir.S wrote: > >> On 13.05.2016 16:32, Matthew Johnson wrote: >> I am, +1 on allowing new lines instead of commas. I suggest you pursue a >> proposal on that. > > Unfortunately I have no ability for this right now, so someone who is > i

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

On 13.05.2016 16:32, Matthew Johnson wrote: I am, +1 on allowing new lines instead of commas. I suggest you pursue a proposal on that. Unfortunately I have no ability for this right now, so someone who is interested in this could take the idea and create a 'formal' proposal. I am also +1

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

On May 12, 2016, at 11:01 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution wrote: > On May 12, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Joe Groff wrote: >>> You’re arguing that you want to read Swift code written like this? >> >> I wouldn't mind it. > > I personally find that style repulsive :-) and I haven’t seen swift code

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

I am, +1 on allowing new lines instead of commas. I suggest you pursue a proposal on that. I am also +1 on the current proposal because it exists and will be pretty useful in some cases and I can't predict how long it might be until such a new line proposal would be approved. I also think tha

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

Sent from my iPad > On May 13, 2016, at 1:07 AM, Patrick Smith via swift-evolution > wrote: > > I do it quite a lot, especially for initialising structs, enums. I use it to > get the same benefits as a switch statement spread over several lines. > > I think it’s often good to liberally appl

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On 13 May 2016, at 07:22, Vladimir.S via swift-evolution > wrote: > > It seems like all problems could be solved by allowing line-break instead of > comma in list: For what it's worth, I'm very much in favour of this idea of allowing line breaks instead of commas in lists. I'm neutral on

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 13, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Patrick Smith via swift-evolution > wrote: > > I forgot to add I like this style particularly as it matches how the type is > declared (below). There’s a symmetry between them all. Obviously each var in > a struct doesn’t need a comma between it, so it would be

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

Regards (From mobile) > On May 13, 2016, at 7:01 AM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution > wrote: > > On May 12, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Joe Groff wrote: --- a.swift +++ a.swift foo( x: 0, - y: 1 + y: 1, + z: 2 ) Trai

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 13, 2016, at 7:58 AM, Gwendal Roué via swift-evolution > wrote: > > >> Le 13 mai 2016 à 07:01, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution >> a écrit : >> >> On May 12, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Joe Groff wrote: >--- a.swift >+++ a.swift > foo( > x: 0, >-

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

I forgot to add I like this style particularly as it matches how the type is declared (below). There’s a symmetry between them all. Obviously each var in a struct doesn’t need a comma between it, so it would be nice to not have to type them in the other cases too! public struct ImageGraphic : G

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

IMO If we were *really* concerned about this, we should just allow line-break as separator in comma-separated lists. On 13.05.2016 8:01, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution wrote: If we were really concerned about this, a narrower way to solve the same problem would be to allow a comma before th

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

It seems like all problems could be solved by allowing line-break instead of comma in list: public init(source: JSONObjectDecoder) throws { try self.init( imageSource: source.decode("imageSource") width: source.decodeOptiona

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

I do it quite a lot, especially for initialising structs, enums. I use it to get the same benefits as a switch statement spread over several lines. I think it’s often good to liberally apply new lines, as it aids legibility. Here some sample code of mine using it: extension ImageGraphic : JSONO

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> Le 13 mai 2016 à 07:01, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution > a écrit : > > On May 12, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Joe Groff wrote: --- a.swift +++ a.swift foo( x: 0, - y: 1 + y: 1, + z: 2 ) Trailing commas avoid this: >>

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

On May 12, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Joe Groff wrote: >>> --- a.swift >>> +++ a.swift >>> foo( >>>x: 0, >>> - y: 1 >>> + y: 1, >>> + z: 2 >>> ) >>> >>> Trailing commas avoid this: >>> >>> --- a.swift >>> +++ a.swift >>> foo( >>>x: 0, >>>

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 12, 2016, at 4:47 PM, Chris Lattner wrote: > > On May 11, 2016, at 9:47 AM, Joe Groff wrote: >> +1 from me. We should be consistent in either accepting or rejecting >> trailing commas everywhere we have comma-delimited syntax. I'm in favor of >> accepting it, since it's popular in la

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

On May 11, 2016, at 9:47 AM, Joe Groff wrote: > +1 from me. We should be consistent in either accepting or rejecting trailing > commas everywhere we have comma-delimited syntax. I'm in favor of accepting > it, since it's popular in languages where it's supported to enable a > minimal-diff style

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> Am 11.05.2016 um 23:12 schrieb Douglas McKenna via swift-evolution > : > > In all this discussion of trailing commas, there is a use-case that's not > been discussed, which is whether or not a trailing comma after the last of a > list of comma-separated items (typically on separate lines) ma

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

What is your evaluation of the proposal? +1. Commas are already redundant syntax to provide additional clarity over spaces in nearly all use cases. Being strict on this provides no material benefit. On the other hand, being super strict about this does have measurable, real-world impacts. I can

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> The review of "SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples" > begins now and runs through May 16. The proposal is available here: > > > https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0084-trailing-commas.md > > * What is your evaluation of the pro

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

I find it symptomatic that the 'popular' languages where this is allowed all seem to be rooted in scripting++ rather than in hard core, strong grammar languages. But i guess the two shall at some point meet... in swift?! Could the feature perhaps be reserved for SwiftScript 1.0 then, instead of

[swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> * What is your evaluation of the proposal? -1 I prefer "newlines as commas" to the solution being suggested, but see below. > * Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to Swift? Probably, not. I haven't ever had a case where I lost something without this feature.

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 10, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution > wrote: >> On May 10, 2016, at 12:36 PM, Tony Allevato > > wrote: >> >> Likewise for function calls; I would argue that if a function >> call/definition's parameter list is likely to grow so much and/

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

I agree. > On May 12, 2016, at 3:36 AM, Vladimir.S via swift-evolution > wrote: > > Fully support your opinion. > > > PS: can they actually be removed EVERYWHERE instead?! > > Yes, I believe it will be much better to propose feature to allow line break > instead of comma, so we can have: >

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

Inline On 11.05.2016 22:58, Joe Groff wrote: On May 11, 2016, at 10:14 AM, Vladimir.S wrote: In this case (if this is a such good feature) IMO we should think about making the trailing commas *required*. In this way we will be consistent in either do we have trailing commas in Swift or don't

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

* What is your evaluation of the proposal? -1 While I appreciate the ease of reordering and commenting out that the proposal brings, I think it hurts readability. Also, it seems to me that keeping the commas in check is a job of a IDE, not language syntax feature.  The analogy for me is the Li

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

Fully support your opinion. > PS: can they actually be removed EVERYWHERE instead?! Yes, I believe it will be much better to propose feature to allow line break instead of comma, so we can have: let x = [10 20 30] let y = [1 : "one" 2 : "two"] (from proposal): func

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> * What is your evaluation of the proposal? I was skeptical of this until a week or two ago, when I had some code where I ended up commenting out certain parameters. Removing the now-trailing commas was an inconvenience. So, +1 from me. > * Is the problem being addressed significan

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> * What is your evaluation of the proposal? -1 for me. This proposal inspired me to start participating again. :] The perceived benefits aren’t worth the visual noise to me. (It looks half-baked to my eyes.) I *really* want to avoid having to and a custom linting step in all my proje

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

-1 - for ever > On May 11, 2016, at 6:47 PM, Joe Groff via swift-evolution > wrote: > > >> On May 10, 2016, at 11:53 AM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution >> mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote: >> >> Hello Swift community, >> >> The review of "SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in param

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

In all this discussion of trailing commas, there is a use-case that's not been discussed, which is whether or not a trailing comma after the last of a list of comma-separated items (typically on separate lines) makes it easier to write a program that outputs Swift code declaring that list. It d

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 11, 2016, at 10:14 AM, Vladimir.S wrote: > > In this case (if this is a such good feature) IMO we should think about > making the trailing commas *required*. In this way we will be consistent in > either do we have trailing commas in Swift or don't. Otherwise we'll have a > zoo in ou

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

In this case (if this is a such good feature) IMO we should think about making the trailing commas *required*. In this way we will be consistent in either do we have trailing commas in Swift or don't. Otherwise we'll have a zoo in our sources/projects. I don't think we need to have the same ru

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

+1 On 11 May 2016, at 9:11, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution wrote: On May 11, 2016, at 9:42 AM, Evan Maloney wrote: I’m going to propose the keyword #litter as an alias for , so I can throw garbage syntax into my code more effectively seven letters at time :P ;-) :P One of the most i

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 10, 2016, at 11:53 AM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution > wrote: > > Hello Swift community, > > The review of "SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples" > begins now and runs through May 16. The proposal is available here: > > > https://github.com/apple/s

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 11, 2016, at 9:47 AM, Joe Groff via swift-evolution > wrote: > >> >> On May 10, 2016, at 11:53 AM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution >> wrote: >> >> Hello Swift community, >> >> The review of "SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples" >> begins now and runs th

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

Sent from my iPad > On May 11, 2016, at 11:11 AM, Erica Sadun via swift-evolution > wrote: > > >>> On May 11, 2016, at 9:42 AM, Evan Maloney wrote: >>> >>> I’m going to propose the keyword #litter as an alias for , so I can throw >>> garbage syntax into my code more effectively seven lett

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 11, 2016, at 9:42 AM, Evan Maloney wrote: > >> I’m going to propose the keyword #litter as an alias for , so I can throw >> garbage syntax into my code more effectively seven letters at time :P > > ;-) > > :P One of the most interesting things about this whole comma proposal is ho

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

I’m going to propose the keyword #litter as an alias for , so I can throw garbage syntax into my code more effectively seven letters at time :P I think this is just a choice of taste, and this is offering an additional choice. You don’t have to agree with it, you don’t have to make use of it, yo

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

>> It feels wrong to allow garbage syntax lying around in one's code simply for >> the sake of occasional convenience. > > Would you then recommend removing trailing comma support for collections on > the same principle? Yes. ___ swift-evolution mai

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 11, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Evan Maloney via swift-evolution > wrote: > > It feels wrong to allow garbage syntax lying around in one's code simply for > the sake of occasional convenience. Would you then recommend removing trailing comma support for collections on the same principle? --

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> * What is your evaluation of the proposal? -1. It feels wrong to allow garbage syntax lying around in one's code simply for the sake of occasional convenience. It's like littering on the sidewalk because it's easier than throwing something in a trash can. Because commas are allowed in sever

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

I +1 the proposal. If it doesn’t make the compiler more complicated, and its a purely opt-in feature for writers, then I don’t why it couldn’t literally extend to everywhere there’s a comma-separated list as a general rule. > On 11 May 2016, at 6:57 AM, Rob Napier via swift-evolution > wrote:

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

* What is your evaluation of the proposal? -1. I support the opinion that dictionary/array is different "thing" than parameters in functions/methods and parameters in tuples. * Is the problem being addressed significant enough to warrant a change to Swift? I don't think so

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 10, 2016, at 5:51 PM, Dany St-Amant via swift-evolution > wrote: > > > On May 10, 2016, at 4:57 PM, Rob Napier via swift-evolution > mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote: > >> On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution >> mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 10, 2016, at 4:57 PM, Rob Napier via swift-evolution > wrote: > >> On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution >> wrote: >> >> * What is your evaluation of the proposal? > > Trailing commas is clearly very useful in the collections case. While that >

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> * What is your evaluation of the proposal? -1. Even if I see the arguments in favour, I am of the same opinion as Tony Allevato and Chris Latner: tuples and parameter lists are most often fixed size, which reduces the usefulness of this proposal. And if the proposal is accepted, where d

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 10, 2016, at 1:58 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution > wrote: > >> >> On May 10, 2016, at 12:36 PM, Tony Allevato wrote: >> >> On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 11:53 AM Chris Lattner via swift-evolution >> wrote: >> Hello Swift community, >> >> The review of "SE-0084: Allow trailing co

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 10, 2016, at 12:36 PM, Tony Allevato wrote: > > On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 11:53 AM Chris Lattner via swift-evolution > mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote: > Hello Swift community, > > The review of "SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples" > begins now and ru

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > > * What is your evaluation of the proposal? > Trailing commas is clearly very useful in the collections case. While that case is more common than functions and tuples, I don't see any

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On May 10, 2016, at 1:36 PM, Tony Allevato via swift-evolution > wrote: > > On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 11:53 AM Chris Lattner via swift-evolution > mailto:swift-evolution@swift.org>> wrote: > Hello Swift community, > > The review of "SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

I will like to suggest the alternative that consists in eliminating the use of "," since the compiler is able to know here they are expected, automatic watermarks can be added by Xcode to indicate where the compiler is automatically adding the comas. also use of a “..” watermark at the end of

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 11:53 AM Chris Lattner via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > Hello Swift community, > > The review of "SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and > tuples" begins now and runs through May 16. The proposal is available here: > > > https://githu

Re: [swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

> On 10 May 2016, at 20:53, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution > wrote: > > Hello Swift community, > > The review of "SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples" > begins now and runs through May 16. The proposal is available here: > > > https://github.com/apple/swift

[swift-evolution] [Review] SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples

Hello Swift community, The review of "SE-0084: Allow trailing commas in parameter lists and tuples" begins now and runs through May 16. The proposal is available here: https://github.com/apple/swift-evolution/blob/master/proposals/0084-trailing-commas.md Reviews are an important part o