Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

Glad to see people working on this! I already have a functioning almost-pure Swift PNG library , and a JPEG library is a month or two away. I’m glad someone is hacking away at some sort of rasterization engine (like cairo for

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Wallacy via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > > > Em qui, 9 de nov de 2017 às 03:42, Ted Kremenek > escreveu: > >> These are some really interesting analogies. How would you imagine the >> community “governance” of these

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

Em qui, 9 de nov de 2017 às 03:42, Ted Kremenek escreveu: > These are some really interesting analogies. How would you imagine the > community “governance” of these “plugins” (which I assume would be > libraries or packages) to be managed? > Pretty much like a TV/Games/etc

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

Sound great! Last week I started working on a pure-swift graphics library, one goal being fast server-side graphics manipulations, and already have .png decode/encode, and quadratic bezier curve stroking implemented, slowly, and poorly. I’m working on TrueType fonts right now, and intend to

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

> On Nov 8, 2017, at 11:49 PM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution > wrote: > >> >> On Nov 7, 2017, at 5:54 PM, Dave DeLong via swift-evolution >> wrote: >> >> Hi Swift-Evolution, >> >> The Standard Library's goal is to be small and

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

I have started a new thread. > On Nov 9, 2017, at 2:05 AM, Adrian Zubarev > wrote: > > Hello Ted, would you mind opening a new thread and post an update about the > forum and maybe answer a few minor questions like: > - what is currently planned? > - in which

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

Just to comment on the idea that a forum will pull the community together and improve this situation. A good and recent (as in young language) example of it is Rust https://users.rust-lang.org/c/announcements . You can filter by that category and see what the community is building, new libraries

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

Hello Ted, would you mind opening a new thread and post an update about the forum and maybe answer a few minor questions like: - what is currently planned? - in which timeframe we *might* see the forum finally happening (don’t have to be a promise)? - what happens to old mailing lists? (I’d say

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

i’m not one to applaud everything go does but its extended standard library seems nice On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Nick Keets via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > I think there are two ideas discussed in this thread at the same time. One > is for a more extended standard

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 1:49 AM, Chris Lattner via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > > > On Nov 7, 2017, at 5:54 PM, Dave DeLong via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > > > > Hi Swift-Evolution, > > > > The Standard Library's goal is to be small and

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 12:11 AM, Ted Kremenek wrote: > > > On Nov 8, 2017, at 12:08 PM, Kelvin Ma wrote: > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Nov 8, 2017, at 11:40

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

I think there are two ideas discussed in this thread at the same time. One is for a more extended standard library, that is developed and shipped as part of the language. This is similar to what Python, Go and other languages are doing. The second is for a more wide collection of packages,

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

> On Nov 7, 2017, at 5:54 PM, Dave DeLong via swift-evolution > wrote: > > Hi Swift-Evolution, > > The Standard Library's goal is to be small and targeted. However, many > aspects of Apple-provided frameworks need or offer opportunities for > improvement or

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

> On Nov 8, 2017, at 12:08 PM, Kelvin Ma wrote: > > > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution > > wrote: > > >> On Nov 8, 2017, at 11:40 AM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution >>

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

These are some really interesting analogies. How would you imagine the community “governance” of these “plugins” (which I assume would be libraries or packages) to be managed? What does it mean for the “full community” to manage them, and provide the rough guarantees you suggest? I like the

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > > > On Nov 8, 2017, at 11:40 AM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > > > > On Nov 8, 2017, at 4:30 AM, Wallacy via swift-evolution < >

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

Em qua, 8 de nov de 2017 às 17:58, Ted Kremenek escreveu: > > On Nov 8, 2017, at 11:40 AM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > > > > On Nov 8, 2017, at 4:30 AM, Wallacy via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > > I do not

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

> On Nov 8, 2017, at 11:40 AM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution > wrote: > > > >> On Nov 8, 2017, at 4:30 AM, Wallacy via swift-evolution >> > wrote: >> >> I do not agree with Ted that only a few

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

> On Nov 8, 2017, at 4:30 AM, Wallacy via swift-evolution > wrote: > > I do not agree with Ted that only a few projects should be ranked, everyone, > as it is in npm should be available. Only be graded according to > recommendations. > I’m a bit confused. I’m

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

On Nov 8, 2017, at 4:54 AM, Karl Wagner > wrote: >> On Nov 7, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution >> > wrote: >> >> FWIW, Ben Cohen and I have been talking about

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

Huge +1 Dealing with path manipulations via Foundation is a real pain on Linux. I end up using a lot of C code from Glibc. And random support is another pain point. There are tons of uses for a non-std library, however, i would like to see python style imports (if possible) to avoid importing a

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

> On Nov 7, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution > > wrote: > > FWIW, Ben Cohen and I have been talking about possibly using Swift packages > as a way to seed out experimental ideas for extensions to the Standard >

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

@Félix Fischer Yes, I wanted to say central index. I chose the wrong term. Actually I could have summed it up like this: - Central Index - SwiftPM to download/search using this index like npm/nuget - GStreamer organization Style. I do not agree with Ted that only a few projects should be

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

This is a great idea. Enabling people to actually sell code could be game changing. On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 12:44 AM, Jonathan Hull via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > > On Nov 7, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution < > swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > > We

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

I’m with Ted on this one. I would also love to see the Swift ecosystem grow but I think that it has to happen with SPM. With improvements on SPM (as discussed in other threads) and having a proper index (imho Cocoapods webpage is the best one out there, with stats about docs, unit testing,

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

> On Nov 7, 2017, at 2:14 PM, Dave DeLong wrote: > > > >>> On Nov 7, 2017, at 3:12 PM, David Sweeris wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Nov 7, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Dave, >>>

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

> On Nov 7, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution > wrote: > > We could also figure out a way to possibly highlight these efforts to the > Swift community, maybe on swift-evolution or other means — but all with the > expectation that these libraries

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

> On Nov 7, 2017, at 3:12 PM, David Sweeris wrote: > >> >> On Nov 7, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution >> > wrote: >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> Thanks for bringing up this topic. This has been

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

> On Nov 7, 2017, at 1:58 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-evolution > wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > Thanks for bringing up this topic. This has been kicked around a little, and > we’re still exploring different models on how to extend Swift. > > The server APIs work group

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

Hi Dave, Thanks for bringing up this topic. This has been kicked around a little, and we’re still exploring different models on how to extend Swift. The server APIs work group is one operational model for the community to build out a new set of core libraries. That work group was formed out

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

I didn’t reply to all before... um, That’s a very good point. Still, I’d like the rules to be as clear as possible. That only helps :) Another point I forgot to mention, Kelvin: Jazzy ( https://github.com/realm/jazzy/blob/master/README.md) derives documentation from the comments. We can use

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 3:15 PM, Félix Fischer wrote: > On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 5:24 PM Wallacy wrote: > >> The Compatibility Suite is a good start, but I agree that something a >> bit more centralized has its benefits. >> >> To be perfect, Compatibility

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 5:24 PM Wallacy wrote: > The Compatibility Suite is a good start, but I agree that something a bit > more centralized has its benefits. > > To be perfect, Compatibility Suite and Swift Package Manager need to work > "together" to offer something simple

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

The compatibility suite is not a good model because it was designed for a completely different purpose. Its license restrictions are so that it can be shipped in an Apple repository and it’s not really optimized for discovery or documentation at all. Any non-standard library index must include GPL

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

The Compatibility Suite is a good start, but I agree that something a bit more centralized has its benefits. To be perfect, Compatibility Suite and Swift Package Manager need to work "together" to offer something simple like nodejs npm and a friendly (and central) interface to not only find these

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Félix Fischer wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 4:01 PM Kelvin Ma wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Félix Fischer via swift-evolution < >> swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: >> >>> Hmm. I kind of like the idea,

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

Great news — I think this will not only push Swift forward, but also empower more people to contribute to the ecosystem: With the updated rules for evolution proposals, the bar to actively contribute to the compiler has been raised significantly; non-standard libraries on the other hand can be

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Félix Fischer via swift-evolution < swift-evolution@swift.org> wrote: > Hmm. I kind of like the idea, but not really. I think it has a fundamental > flaw: centralization. > > You see, the StdLib can be commanded by a central authority (the core > team) and hear

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

This is something I have been pushing for for some time now and I am glad to see some more force behind it. There are multiple prior threads about this topic you should probably familiarize yourselves with for background: https://lists.swift.org/pipermail/swift-evolution/

Re: [swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

Hmm. I kind of like the idea, but not really. I think it has a fundamental flaw: centralization. You see, the StdLib can be commanded by a central authority (the core team) and hear the needs of the general community (through swift-evolution and such) because, among other things, it’s small. The

[swift-evolution] Large Proposal: Non-Standard Libraries

Hi Swift-Evolution, The Standard Library's goal is to be small and targeted. However, many aspects of Apple-provided frameworks need or offer opportunities for improvement or wholesale replacement. These enhancements lie beyond the scope of the Standard Library. To address this, we'd like to