Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Chris Lattner via swift-users]

On Nov 1, 2016, at 9:50 PM, Shyamal Chandra  wrote:
> Hi Chris,
> 
> First of all, there is tremendous instability with Xcode Playgrounds. 

Hi Shyamal,

The vast majority of the instability of playgrounds is a result of the compiler 
code which is already open source.  I look forward to you sending in patches to 
improve Swift: if you’re looking for a good starting place, there are a large 
number of submitted bugs in JIRA which we’d love your help on, and a large 
number of known crashers tracked in the validation suite.

-Chris


> I paste the same simple code into Xcode Playgrounds; sometimes, it works and 
> sometimes, it doesn't work.  Why don't you make the Playgrounds open source 
> so I can investigate?  You should tell this to Tim Cook as soon as possible.  
> I wanted to add Swift to the list of languages in Juypter for workbook usage. 
>  If a project is closed-source, I cannot do anything without looking at 
> documented code.  The documentation for Xcode Playgrounds is not there.  For 
> the XCPlayground library, there is just an API call reference that is 
> sparsely documented.   I can wait for infinity for a response on the forums 
> but Apple should provide better support rather than charging money for each 
> technical support call.  This is disappointing since Apple was founded to 
> make computing easy, not hard on purpose, making code writing a black art.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Shyamal Chandra
> shyam...@gmail.com 
> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc 
> 
> Phone: 620-719-9064
> 
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 10:56 PM, Chris Lattner  > wrote:
> On Sep 13, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Shyamal Chandra  > wrote:
>> Hi Chris,
>> 
>> Here is a forum question that I posted a while back.  The latest post says 
>> to file a bug under the bug report.  
>> 
>> Here's the post:
>> 
>> https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/61953 
>>  (Playgrounds error)
> 
> Thanks for the link.  Contrary to your claims, it appears that you promptly 
> got a response from an Apple employee, and it appears that you didn’t follow 
> his instructions to file a radar in bugreporter.apple.com 
> .
> 
> Now that Xcode 8 has shipped to the Mac App Store today, I’d suggest you 
> download that and try it.  There are a number of bugs that are fixed between 
> beta 6 and the final release, and that may include this one.
> 
>> I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of Playgrounds 
>> doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when I write 
>> bug-free code.  Why is Playgrounds so flaky?  Sometimes, it shows the output 
>> on the right side; sometime, it doesn’t.
> 
> Two simple and obvious answers come to mind: you are running 
> advertised-as-beta software, and even shipping software does have bugs.
> 
>> I have had mixed success with the bug reporter tool from Apple; most of the 
>> time, they ask for the system diagnostics and then, tell you to update your 
>> version.  Sometimes, they just close the issue and nothing happens.
> 
> 
> I understand that you claim to have had problems with 
> Radar/bugreporter.apple.com , but again I can 
> see no evidence of you ever filing a bug in it (and you haven’t provided me 
> any radar numbers to cross reference), so there isn’t much I can do to help 
> you.  Needless to say, we do actually need the system diagnostics in order to 
> reproduce issues like this, as you found on the forum, your issue doesn’t 
> reproduce trivially for other folks.
> 
> 
> Finally, as others have pointed out, your approach on this thread hasn’t been 
> particularly constructive.  Despite your apparent expectation, Apple has not 
> signed up to fix any and every bug reported against Swift.  That said, we all 
> want to build a strong community, and if you are interested in working in a 
> helpful and productive way we would love for you to be part of that 
> community.  On the other hand, if you find that Swift on Linux isn’t ready 
> for you today and that you don’t want to invest effort in it, then perhaps it 
> is best for you to come back at some point later in the future.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Chris
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Shyamal Chandra
>> shyam...@gmail.com 
>> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc 
>> 
>> Phone: 620-719-9064 
>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Chris Lattner > > wrote:
>> On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users 
>> > wrote:
>> > Hope you are doing well!
>> >
>> > Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new 
>> > 

Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Jens Alfke via swift-users]

> On Nov 1, 2016, at 9:50 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Why don't you make the Playgrounds open source so I can investigate? 

I’ve been hearing people tell Apple “why don’t you make ___ open source” for as 
long as the term ‘open source’ has existed. Sometimes it happens, but the 
decision doesn’t seem to be based on factors like ‘people on the Internet are 
yelling at us to open-source this’, or ‘this feature sucks, let’s dump the 
source code on Github and let volunteers fix it for us for free!’

I’m being sarcastic here, but if you’d ever run an open source project — or 
worse, open-sourced an existing code base — you’d have some idea of the 
complexity of what you’re asking. Open source is a commitment, and it can be a 
ton of work just getting the code ready, especially when it has dependencies on 
private APIs from other components that shouldn’t be exposed. Even comments and 
identifiers need to be scrubbed of references to internal/secret/embarrassing 
information, like “// we’re commenting out this feature until the 2017 Mac Pro 
ships in March”, or “// Workaround to make Photoshop compile, no thanks to 
those morons at Adobe”. (Yes, I went through stuff like this in one project in 
the ‘90s.)

As for Playgrounds, I’m not aware of Apple open-sourcing GUI-level application 
code. Ever. (Someone correct me if I’ve forgotten something.)

> You should tell this to Tim Cook as soon as possible.

Because everyone at Apple is on a first-name basis with Tim Cook and feels free 
to drop into his office and tell him what to do.  Back when I worked at Apple 
I used to drop in on Steve and tell him the metal UI appearance sucked. He’d 
chuckle in his kindly way, and then nail my head to the floor.

—Jens___
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Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Jens Alfke via swift-users]

> On Sep 14, 2016, at 7:50 AM, Patrice Kouame via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> 1. File those bugs and issues in radar, but lower your expectations a bit.  
> That’s how I usually vent my frustrations.  Just imagine the thousands they 
> have to sift through...
> 2. Be constructive: if possible provide some workarounds, even sloppy ones - 
> don’t be shy and engage discussion
> 3. Have a thick skin: welcome some constructive criticism

I can also add: challenge yourself to diagnose the problem. Even if you don’t 
know the innards of the compiler or runtime. I’m a technology owner and help 
support developers using it, and I find that many times people report bugs or 
ask for help without having done all they could to analyze the problem. 
Sometimes this is a dead end, but often you can uncover more information that 
can greatly help the engineers fix the bug, and sometimes you can find 
workarounds that get you unblocked.

Some advice based on stuff I see in my project’s forums:

— Read error messages carefully. Sometimes people report that “it won’t 
compile” or “it crashed” and append a dump of the log, without noticing that 
the log includes a message that pretty clearly identifies what they did wrong.
— Look for clues in crash logs / backtraces. Even if you don’t know how the 
software is implemented or have the source code, just looking at the function 
names in a backtrace or crash can give you clues about what it’s doing, which 
might help you find workarounds.
— Try to boil a problem down to a simpler case. Ideally something you can do in 
a playground.
— Learn common crash/error patterns. I can’t think of any Swift-specific ones 
at the moment, but a super common Objective-C one is the crash in 
`objc_msgsend`, which an experienced developer knows the program must have 
messaged either a deallocated object, or a bogus object reference.
— Treat debugging as a science. Act like a scientist. Examine the evidence, 
form hypotheses, invent experiments to test the hypotheses. “If this variable 
is being clobbered, maybe it’s because this method is called re-entrantly? I 
can add a flag to it to test for a re-entrant call…”

—Jens___
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Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Gerard Iglesias via swift-users]

The Art of Diplomacy…

Keep doing the great work, lot of us have to much work in our job and/or not 
the skills (my case) to help you in this so interesting journey.

Thanx

Gerard

> On 14 Sep 2016, at 05:56, Chris Lattner via swift-users 
> > wrote:
> 
> On Sep 13, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Shyamal Chandra  > wrote:
>> Hi Chris,
>> 
>> Here is a forum question that I posted a while back.  The latest post says 
>> to file a bug under the bug report.  
>> 
>> Here's the post:
>> 
>> https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/61953 
>>  (Playgrounds error)
> 
> Thanks for the link.  Contrary to your claims, it appears that you promptly 
> got a response from an Apple employee, and it appears that you didn’t follow 
> his instructions to file a radar in bugreporter.apple.com 
> .
> 
> Now that Xcode 8 has shipped to the Mac App Store today, I’d suggest you 
> download that and try it.  There are a number of bugs that are fixed between 
> beta 6 and the final release, and that may include this one.
> 
>> I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of Playgrounds 
>> doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when I write 
>> bug-free code.  Why is Playgrounds so flaky?  Sometimes, it shows the output 
>> on the right side; sometime, it doesn’t.
> 
> Two simple and obvious answers come to mind: you are running 
> advertised-as-beta software, and even shipping software does have bugs.
> 
>> I have had mixed success with the bug reporter tool from Apple; most of the 
>> time, they ask for the system diagnostics and then, tell you to update your 
>> version.  Sometimes, they just close the issue and nothing happens.
> 
> 
> I understand that you claim to have had problems with 
> Radar/bugreporter.apple.com , but again I can 
> see no evidence of you ever filing a bug in it (and you haven’t provided me 
> any radar numbers to cross reference), so there isn’t much I can do to help 
> you.  Needless to say, we do actually need the system diagnostics in order to 
> reproduce issues like this, as you found on the forum, your issue doesn’t 
> reproduce trivially for other folks.
> 
> 
> Finally, as others have pointed out, your approach on this thread hasn’t been 
> particularly constructive.  Despite your apparent expectation, Apple has not 
> signed up to fix any and every bug reported against Swift.  That said, we all 
> want to build a strong community, and if you are interested in working in a 
> helpful and productive way we would love for you to be part of that 
> community.  On the other hand, if you find that Swift on Linux isn’t ready 
> for you today and that you don’t want to invest effort in it, then perhaps it 
> is best for you to come back at some point later in the future.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -Chris
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Shyamal Chandra
>> shyam...@gmail.com 
>> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc 
>> 
>> Phone: 620-719-9064
>> 
>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Chris Lattner > > wrote:
>> On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users 
>> > wrote:
>> > Hope you are doing well!
>> >
>> > Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new 
>> > version of Xcode.  When you are trying to run old code with different 
>> > syntax, you run into problems because the code is no longer compatible.  
>> > Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why 
>> > don't you standardize the library and language operations and functions 
>> > for the different package and frameworks included with Xcode
>> 
>> The subject line of this message seems like it is intended to be 
>> provocative, not helpful.
>> 
>> Despite that, you’ll be happy to know that the goal of Swift 4 is to be 
>> source compatible with Swift 3, so the concerns that you are complaining 
>> about are historic, not future problems.
>> 
>> > because I have already submitted multiple bugs to the bug report that are 
>> > with the official release of Xcode and I am very disappointed with the 
>> > software quality.
>> 
>> I don’t see any radars filed by you in the system, but perhaps they are just 
>> under a different name.  In any case, thank you for filing bugs, we do read 
>> and care about them!  Please send me the radar numbers (off list if you 
>> prefer) and I’ll take a look.
>> 
>> -Chris
>> 
>> 
> 
> ___
> swift-users mailing list
> swift-users@swift.org 
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users 
> 

Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Chris Lattner via swift-users]

On Sep 13, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Shyamal Chandra  wrote:
> Hi Chris,
> 
> Here is a forum question that I posted a while back.  The latest post says to 
> file a bug under the bug report.  
> 
> Here's the post:
> 
> https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/61953 
>  (Playgrounds error)

Thanks for the link.  Contrary to your claims, it appears that you promptly got 
a response from an Apple employee, and it appears that you didn’t follow his 
instructions to file a radar in bugreporter.apple.com.

Now that Xcode 8 has shipped to the Mac App Store today, I’d suggest you 
download that and try it.  There are a number of bugs that are fixed between 
beta 6 and the final release, and that may include this one.

> I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of Playgrounds 
> doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when I write 
> bug-free code.  Why is Playgrounds so flaky?  Sometimes, it shows the output 
> on the right side; sometime, it doesn’t.

Two simple and obvious answers come to mind: you are running advertised-as-beta 
software, and even shipping software does have bugs.

> I have had mixed success with the bug reporter tool from Apple; most of the 
> time, they ask for the system diagnostics and then, tell you to update your 
> version.  Sometimes, they just close the issue and nothing happens.


I understand that you claim to have had problems with 
Radar/bugreporter.apple.com, but again I can see no evidence of you ever filing 
a bug in it (and you haven’t provided me any radar numbers to cross reference), 
so there isn’t much I can do to help you.  Needless to say, we do actually need 
the system diagnostics in order to reproduce issues like this, as you found on 
the forum, your issue doesn’t reproduce trivially for other folks.


Finally, as others have pointed out, your approach on this thread hasn’t been 
particularly constructive.  Despite your apparent expectation, Apple has not 
signed up to fix any and every bug reported against Swift.  That said, we all 
want to build a strong community, and if you are interested in working in a 
helpful and productive way we would love for you to be part of that community.  
On the other hand, if you find that Swift on Linux isn’t ready for you today 
and that you don’t want to invest effort in it, then perhaps it is best for you 
to come back at some point later in the future.

Thanks,

-Chris

> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Shyamal Chandra
> shyam...@gmail.com 
> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc 
> 
> Phone: 620-719-9064
> 
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Chris Lattner  > wrote:
> On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users 
> > wrote:
> > Hope you are doing well!
> >
> > Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new 
> > version of Xcode.  When you are trying to run old code with different 
> > syntax, you run into problems because the code is no longer compatible.  
> > Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't 
> > you standardize the library and language operations and functions for the 
> > different package and frameworks included with Xcode
> 
> The subject line of this message seems like it is intended to be provocative, 
> not helpful.
> 
> Despite that, you’ll be happy to know that the goal of Swift 4 is to be 
> source compatible with Swift 3, so the concerns that you are complaining 
> about are historic, not future problems.
> 
> > because I have already submitted multiple bugs to the bug report that are 
> > with the official release of Xcode and I am very disappointed with the 
> > software quality.
> 
> I don’t see any radars filed by you in the system, but perhaps they are just 
> under a different name.  In any case, thank you for filing bugs, we do read 
> and care about them!  Please send me the radar numbers (off list if you 
> prefer) and I’ll take a look.
> 
> -Chris
> 
> 

___
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Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Austin Zheng via swift-users]

Hi Shyamal,

Please share with us the SLA you signed with Apple that guarantees you any 
level of paid support with regards to Swift, or alternatively an invoice that 
shows us how much you paid for a license to use the Linux port of Swift.

Best regards,
Austin

> On Sep 13, 2016, at 7:24 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Shawn,
> 
> Could you give me examples of what I said was clearly "unprofessional"?  Two 
> months for a bug because open source is "do it yourself".  This sounds like a 
> crappy support team by a large multinational company that open sources 
> non-functional Linux ports of its language.  I gave clear examples and bugs 
> so I don't understand why you are getting defensive and hammering me with the 
> "unprofessional" word.  First, address the issues and the bugs; I gave you 
> clear examples and you circumvent those issues and flag the post because you 
> don't want to confront that the tooling is buggy and flaky.
> 
> I believe that a company of Apple's stature is unprofessional when they 
> deliver buggy code to their customers that they pay money for.  Before you 
> respond to this message, please address the bugs that I hyperlinked and the 
> forum question problem.  You are wasting my time.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Shyamal Chandra
> shyam...@gmail.com 
> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc 
> 
> Phone: 620-719-9064
> 
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Shawn Erickson  > wrote:
> You message are really coming across with an unprofessional tone. I 
> understand you are frustrated but folks inside and outside of Apple have been 
> working their butts off and frankly deserve a little more civility.
> 
> Anyway, the Linux side of things is very much an open source - do it yourself 
> - type of thing at this time. I am sure folks would love to have the issues 
> and short coming addressed but need folks to step forward.
> 
> If you would like to talk specifics about swift issues you are having a fair 
> number of folks are on this list and possibly could help.
> 
> Also note Apple folks are likely a little burned out right now with all of 
> the crazy work closing out - as best they could - on Swift 3 and Xcode 8, 
> etc. so they may not be the quickest to respond.
> 
> -Shawn
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 6:53 PM Shyamal Chandra via swift-users 
> > wrote:
> I am not arguing; I am bringing up defect in the Apple way of handling bugs 
> for Swift, Xcode, and Playgrounds.  Am I supposed to wait for eternity?
> 
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2016, Jens Alfke  > wrote:
> 
>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:27 PM, Shyamal Chandra > wrote:
>> 
>> Do you really think that is a viable option again?
> 
> No, you’re right. Reporting bugs is clearly the least viable option, except 
> for all the other options* (like arguing on mailing lists.)
> 
> —Jens
> 
> * With apologies to Winston Churchill
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sent from Gmail Mobile
> ___
> swift-users mailing list
> swift-users@swift.org 
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users 
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Shyamal Chandra via swift-users]

Hi Adam,

What are you talking about?  If swift.org bug reporting doesn't work, where
do you go?  You pay money for support but you don't get that from Apple.
That's unprofessional by Apple; not my complaint that they don't handle the
bug reports in a timely-fashion.

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyam...@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 9:28 PM, Adam Eberbach  wrote:

> If you need yet another perspective, your tone does seem abrasive. This is
> not the place for regretting how Apple handles bug reports.
>
> Best regards,
> Adam Eberbach
>
> On 14 Sep. 2016, at 12:24 pm, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <
> swift-users@swift.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shawn,
>
> Could you give me examples of what I said was clearly "unprofessional"?
> Two months for a bug because open source is "do it yourself".  This sounds
> like a crappy support team by a large multinational company that open
> sources non-functional Linux ports of its language.  I gave clear examples
> and bugs so I don't understand why you are getting defensive and hammering
> me with the "unprofessional" word.  First, address the issues and the bugs;
> I gave you clear examples and you circumvent those issues and flag the post
> because you don't want to confront that the tooling is buggy and flaky.
>
> I believe that a company of Apple's stature is unprofessional when they
> deliver buggy code to their customers that they pay money for.  Before you
> respond to this message, please address the bugs that I hyperlinked and the
> forum question problem.  You are wasting my time.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Best,
>
> Shyamal Chandra
> shyam...@gmail.com
> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
> Phone: 620-719-9064
>
> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Shawn Erickson  wrote:
>
>> You message are really coming across with an unprofessional tone. I
>> understand you are frustrated but folks inside and outside of Apple have
>> been working their butts off and frankly deserve a little more civility.
>>
>> Anyway, the Linux side of things is very much an open source - do it
>> yourself - type of thing at this time. I am sure folks would love to have
>> the issues and short coming addressed but need folks to step forward.
>>
>> If you would like to talk specifics about swift issues you are having a
>> fair number of folks are on this list and possibly could help.
>>
>> Also note Apple folks are likely a little burned out right now with all
>> of the crazy work closing out - as best they could - on Swift 3 and Xcode
>> 8, etc. so they may not be the quickest to respond.
>>
>> -Shawn
>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 6:53 PM Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <
>> swift-users@swift.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I am not arguing; I am bringing up defect in the Apple way of handling
>>> bugs for Swift, Xcode, and Playgrounds.  Am I supposed to wait for eternity?
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2016, Jens Alfke  wrote:
>>>

 On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:27 PM, Shyamal Chandra 
 wrote:

 Do you really think that is a viable option again?


 No, you’re right. Reporting bugs is clearly the least viable option,
 except for all the other options* (like arguing on mailing lists.)

 —Jens

 * With apologies to Winston Churchill

>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile
>>> ___
>>> swift-users mailing list
>>> swift-users@swift.org
>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users
>>>
>>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Adam Eberbach via swift-users]

If you need yet another perspective, your tone does seem abrasive. This is not 
the place for regretting how Apple handles bug reports.

Best regards,
Adam Eberbach

> On 14 Sep. 2016, at 12:24 pm, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Shawn,
> 
> Could you give me examples of what I said was clearly "unprofessional"?  Two 
> months for a bug because open source is "do it yourself".  This sounds like a 
> crappy support team by a large multinational company that open sources 
> non-functional Linux ports of its language.  I gave clear examples and bugs 
> so I don't understand why you are getting defensive and hammering me with the 
> "unprofessional" word.  First, address the issues and the bugs; I gave you 
> clear examples and you circumvent those issues and flag the post because you 
> don't want to confront that the tooling is buggy and flaky.
> 
> I believe that a company of Apple's stature is unprofessional when they 
> deliver buggy code to their customers that they pay money for.  Before you 
> respond to this message, please address the bugs that I hyperlinked and the 
> forum question problem.  You are wasting my time.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Shyamal Chandra
> shyam...@gmail.com
> Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
> Phone: 620-719-9064
> 
>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Shawn Erickson  wrote:
>> You message are really coming across with an unprofessional tone. I 
>> understand you are frustrated but folks inside and outside of Apple have 
>> been working their butts off and frankly deserve a little more civility.
>> 
>> Anyway, the Linux side of things is very much an open source - do it 
>> yourself - type of thing at this time. I am sure folks would love to have 
>> the issues and short coming addressed but need folks to step forward.
>> 
>> If you would like to talk specifics about swift issues you are having a fair 
>> number of folks are on this list and possibly could help.
>> 
>> Also note Apple folks are likely a little burned out right now with all of 
>> the crazy work closing out - as best they could - on Swift 3 and Xcode 8, 
>> etc. so they may not be the quickest to respond.
>> 
>> -Shawn
>>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 6:53 PM Shyamal Chandra via swift-users 
>>>  wrote:
>>> I am not arguing; I am bringing up defect in the Apple way of handling bugs 
>>> for Swift, Xcode, and Playgrounds.  Am I supposed to wait for eternity?
>>> 
 On Tuesday, September 13, 2016, Jens Alfke  wrote:
 
> On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:27 PM, Shyamal Chandra  wrote:
> 
> Do you really think that is a viable option again?
 
 No, you’re right. Reporting bugs is clearly the least viable option, 
 except for all the other options* (like arguing on mailing lists.)
 
 —Jens
 
 * With apologies to Winston Churchill
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Sent from Gmail Mobile
>>> ___
>>> swift-users mailing list
>>> swift-users@swift.org
>>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users
> 
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Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Shawn Erickson via swift-users]

You message are really coming across with an unprofessional tone. I
understand you are frustrated but folks inside and outside of Apple have
been working their butts off and frankly deserve a little more civility.

Anyway, the Linux side of things is very much an open source - do it
yourself - type of thing at this time. I am sure folks would love to have
the issues and short coming addressed but need folks to step forward.

If you would like to talk specifics about swift issues you are having a
fair number of folks are on this list and possibly could help.

Also note Apple folks are likely a little burned out right now with all of
the crazy work closing out - as best they could - on Swift 3 and Xcode 8,
etc. so they may not be the quickest to respond.

-Shawn
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 6:53 PM Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <
swift-users@swift.org> wrote:

> I am not arguing; I am bringing up defect in the Apple way of handling
> bugs for Swift, Xcode, and Playgrounds.  Am I supposed to wait for eternity?
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2016, Jens Alfke  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:27 PM, Shyamal Chandra  wrote:
>>
>> Do you really think that is a viable option again?
>>
>>
>> No, you’re right. Reporting bugs is clearly the least viable option,
>> except for all the other options* (like arguing on mailing lists.)
>>
>> —Jens
>>
>> * With apologies to Winston Churchill
>>
>
>
> --
> Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Shyamal Chandra via swift-users]

I am not arguing; I am bringing up defect in the Apple way of handling bugs
for Swift, Xcode, and Playgrounds.  Am I supposed to wait for eternity?

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016, Jens Alfke  wrote:

>
> On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:27 PM, Shyamal Chandra  > wrote:
>
> Do you really think that is a viable option again?
>
>
> No, you’re right. Reporting bugs is clearly the least viable option,
> except for all the other options* (like arguing on mailing lists.)
>
> —Jens
>
> * With apologies to Winston Churchill
>


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Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Jens Alfke via swift-users]

> On Sep 13, 2016, at 6:27 PM, Shyamal Chandra  wrote:
> 
> Do you really think that is a viable option again?

No, you’re right. Reporting bugs is clearly the least viable option, except for 
all the other options* (like arguing on mailing lists.)

—Jens

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[swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Shyamal Chandra via swift-users]

I posted an error with ubuntu running on swift.org and it is currently
medium priority and still hasn't been fixed by an "open source" team member
and it has been more than two months.

Here is the error:
https://bugs.swift.org/browse/SR-1998

Do you really think that is a viable option again?

On Tuesday, September 13, 2016, Jens Alfke > wrote:

>
> On Sep 13, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <
> swift-users@swift.org> wrote:
>
> Here is a forum question that I posted a while back.  The latest post says
> to file a bug under the bug report.  I have had mixed success with the bug
> reporter tool from Apple; most of the time, they ask for the system
> diagnostics and then, tell you to update your version.  Sometimes, they
> just close the issue and nothing happens.
>
>
> Apple’s bug-reporting process is not the greatest, I agree. Most of that
> is a side effect of how secretive and opaque Apple is: you can’t see bugs
> anyone else has filed, and once you file a bug you can’t see what’s going
> on internally, and if it gets marked as a dup you can’t see the progress of
> the bug it was duped against.
>
> Fortunately Swift is now open source and has its own more open bug tracker
> at bugs.swift.org.
>
> I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of
> Playgrounds doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when
> I write bug-free code.  Why is Playgrounds so flaky?
>
>
> Now you’re talking about Xcode, not about Swift itself. Everyone has a
> love/hate relationship with Xcode (even inside Apple; I used to work
> there.) It’s a hugely complex app with a thousand competing demands it has
> to fulfill. Some parts of it suck. Generally they get better over time. The
> Swift support —  and playgrounds in particular — still seem pretty rough. I
> still spend most of my time with Obj-C and C++, and whenever I do Swift
> development it feels like I’m using a different, much less stable IDE! I
> imagine it still needs more time to mature.
>
> I don’t know if this mailing list is the best place to discuss Xcode
> issues, even ones related to Swift. Apple has an xcode-users mailing list
> at http://lists.apple.com . It’s a good quality list that I’ve been on
> for years.
>
> —Jens
>


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Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Jens Alfke via swift-users]

> On Sep 13, 2016, at 5:34 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Here is a forum question that I posted a while back.  The latest post says to 
> file a bug under the bug report.  I have had mixed success with the bug 
> reporter tool from Apple; most of the time, they ask for the system 
> diagnostics and then, tell you to update your version.  Sometimes, they just 
> close the issue and nothing happens.

Apple’s bug-reporting process is not the greatest, I agree. Most of that is a 
side effect of how secretive and opaque Apple is: you can’t see bugs anyone 
else has filed, and once you file a bug you can’t see what’s going on 
internally, and if it gets marked as a dup you can’t see the progress of the 
bug it was duped against.

Fortunately Swift is now open source and has its own more open bug tracker at 
bugs.swift.org.

> I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of Playgrounds 
> doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when I write 
> bug-free code.  Why is Playgrounds so flaky?

Now you’re talking about Xcode, not about Swift itself. Everyone has a 
love/hate relationship with Xcode (even inside Apple; I used to work there.) 
It’s a hugely complex app with a thousand competing demands it has to fulfill. 
Some parts of it suck. Generally they get better over time. The Swift support — 
 and playgrounds in particular — still seem pretty rough. I still spend most of 
my time with Obj-C and C++, and whenever I do Swift development it feels like 
I’m using a different, much less stable IDE! I imagine it still needs more time 
to mature.

I don’t know if this mailing list is the best place to discuss Xcode issues, 
even ones related to Swift. Apple has an xcode-users mailing list at 
http://lists.apple.com . It’s a good quality list that I’ve been on for years.

—Jens___
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Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Shyamal Chandra via swift-users]

Hi Chris,

Here is a forum question that I posted a while back.  The latest post says
to file a bug under the bug report.  I have had mixed success with the bug
reporter tool from Apple; most of the time, they ask for the system
diagnostics and then, tell you to update your version.  Sometimes, they
just close the issue and nothing happens.

Here's the post:

https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/61953 (Playgrounds error)

I was doing something "simple" in Playgrounds and my version of Playgrounds
doesn't function properly because it is emitting an error when I write
bug-free code.  Why is Playgrounds so flaky?  Sometimes, it shows the
output on the right side; sometime, it doesn't.


Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyam...@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Chris Lattner  wrote:

> On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <
> swift-users@swift.org> wrote:
> > Hope you are doing well!
> >
> > Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new
> version of Xcode.  When you are trying to run old code with different
> syntax, you run into problems because the code is no longer compatible.
> Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't
> you standardize the library and language operations and functions for the
> different package and frameworks included with Xcode
>
> The subject line of this message seems like it is intended to be
> provocative, not helpful.
>
> Despite that, you’ll be happy to know that the goal of Swift 4 is to be
> source compatible with Swift 3, so the concerns that you are complaining
> about are historic, not future problems.
>
> > because I have already submitted multiple bugs to the bug report that
> are with the official release of Xcode and I am very disappointed with the
> software quality.
>
> I don’t see any radars filed by you in the system, but perhaps they are
> just under a different name.  In any case, thank you for filing bugs, we do
> read and care about them!  Please send me the radar numbers (off list if
> you prefer) and I’ll take a look.
>
> -Chris
>
>
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Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Chris Lattner via swift-users]

On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users 
 wrote:
> Hope you are doing well!
> 
> Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new version 
> of Xcode.  When you are trying to run old code with different syntax, you run 
> into problems because the code is no longer compatible.  Instead of moving 
> onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't you standardize the 
> library and language operations and functions for the different package and 
> frameworks included with Xcode

The subject line of this message seems like it is intended to be provocative, 
not helpful.  

Despite that, you’ll be happy to know that the goal of Swift 4 is to be source 
compatible with Swift 3, so the concerns that you are complaining about are 
historic, not future problems.

> because I have already submitted multiple bugs to the bug report that are 
> with the official release of Xcode and I am very disappointed with the 
> software quality. 

I don’t see any radars filed by you in the system, but perhaps they are just 
under a different name.  In any case, thank you for filing bugs, we do read and 
care about them!  Please send me the radar numbers (off list if you prefer) and 
I’ll take a look. 

-Chris

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Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Shyamal Chandra via swift-users]

Hi Jens and mailing list members,

I hope that Chris Lattner and the Swift team can move to that goal very
quickly by following the trend of Go and Rust that have already gone
through that process.  Most of the documentation from different publishers
is going to be outdated very quickly if the syntax and semantics change
significantly.  I hope that the Swift open source team, even outside of
Apple Inc., can come up with an actively added documentation that has
recipes for all the function calls for all the libraries that is constantly
evolving as the language changes with testing done by Jenkins-like server.
  That would be very helpful for developers who need an ever-changing
technical documentation resource for an ever-changing and evolving language.

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyam...@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Jens Alfke  wrote:

>
> On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users <
> swift-users@swift.org> wrote:
>
> Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why
> don't you standardize the library and language operations and functions for
> the different package and frameworks included with Xcode
>
>
> That is the goal, and apparently it will happen with Swift 4. It’s a very
> large goal, and if you wanted the Swift designers to hold off on releases
> until it was complete, there’d be no updates to the language for some time.
> Moreover, outside developers would have no input into the changes going on,
> unlike the current development process where anyone can suggest and discuss
> proposals.
>
> Other new languages like Go and Rust have also gone through years of early
> evolution where syntax and APIs changed incompatibly. (In the case of Go,
> it happened prior to 1.0 when hardly anyone was paying attention to it.)
>
> —Jens
>
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Re: [swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Jens Alfke via swift-users]

> On Sep 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Shyamal Chandra via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't 
> you standardize the library and language operations and functions for the 
> different package and frameworks included with Xcode

That is the goal, and apparently it will happen with Swift 4. It’s a very large 
goal, and if you wanted the Swift designers to hold off on releases until it 
was complete, there’d be no updates to the language for some time. Moreover, 
outside developers would have no input into the changes going on, unlike the 
current development process where anyone can suggest and discuss proposals.

Other new languages like Go and Rust have also gone through years of early 
evolution where syntax and APIs changed incompatibly. (In the case of Go, it 
happened prior to 1.0 when hardly anyone was paying attention to it.)

—Jens___
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[swift-users] Swift and Xcode along with Playgrounds is full of bugs

[Shyamal Chandra via swift-users]

Hi all,

Hope you are doing well!

Swift is very volatile language that keeps on changing with every new
version of Xcode.  When you are trying to run old code with different
syntax, you run into problems because the code is no longer compatible.
Instead of moving onto Swift 3, 4, and 5 (with different syntax), why don't
you standardize the library and language operations and functions for the
different package and frameworks included with Xcode because I have already
submitted multiple bugs to the bug report that are with the official
release of Xcode and I am very disappointed with the software quality.

I hope everyone on the mailing list can chime into this ever-growing
problem with Swift, Playgrounds, and Xcode.

Thanks!

Best,

Shyamal Chandra
shyam...@gmail.com
Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shyamalc
Phone: 620-719-9064
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