t-and-f: Re: TF athletes in winter Olympics?

2002-02-23 Thread Jon Entine

The following article in The Black World Today (and another in Africana.com)
addresses an aspect of TF athletes in the winter Olympics...
-- 
Jon Entine



http://www.tbwt.com/views/specialrpt/specialrpt_0249.asp

Flowers Is No Fluke: Black Success In Bobsledding Part Of A Growing Winter
Sport Tradition


02-22-02 

By Jon Entine
Guest Contributor

The first ever gold medal victory by a black in the Winter Olympics, by
bobsleigh pusher and brakewoman Vonetta Flowers, comes as a shock only to
those unfamiliar with the history of success of blacks in this daring sport.
Bobsledding is the only Olympic winter event in which black athletes have
not only competed, but thrived.

That black athletes or athletes of color in general have not taken most
winter sports by storm should come as little surprise and of no automatic
indication of racism. After all, skin color is a geographical marker with
darker shades correlated with warmer climes. By the numbers, there are far
fewer blacks in countries that dominate winter sports or in the northern
regions of the United States from where most winter athletes hail.

But bobsledding is different. This year there are three blacks on the men's
and women's teams, about par for recent US squads. Flowers is joined by
two-time Olympians Garrett Hines and Randy Jones. Just a few days ago, Hines
missed a medal in the two-man by a heartbreaking .03 seconds.

All three are runners, the athletes who launch the sled, then jump in for
the ride. The most critical factor in bobsledding is the start. If it's
explosive, it can give a two- or four-man team an edge that can sometimes
overcome a lesser-quality sled or a bumpy ride. Flowers and her teammate,
driver Jill Bakken, attribute much of their win to incredible starts in
their two runs.

Hines, Jones and Flowers also share athletic backgrounds: they are former
sprinting stars. That's not surprising to those familiar with the science of
body types and athletic performance. According to scientists, African
Americans, who are of West African ancestry, are the population group most
likely to have explosive fast twitch muscle fibers.

It's a strong genetic component what type of muscle fiber you have, either
slow or face says Bengt Saltin, director of the Copenhagen Muscle Research
Center. According to Saltin, who just received an award of his own at these
Games, selected as the 2002 recipient of the IOC Olympic Prize on Sport
Sciences, African Americans and other populations of West African ancestry,
should continue to flourish in sports that require quick speed bursts. West
Africans have already 70 or 75 percent of the fast type when they are born.
And that's needed for a 100 meter race around 9.9 seconds. Because
quickness is so important, it makes sense that the most explosive
contemporary athletes-blacks who trace their ancestry to West Africa-would
be among the best bobsled pushers.

Flowers was a seven time All-American at the University of Alabama who
turned to bobsledding in a fluke a few years ago after she failed in her
dream to make the US Summer team going to Sydney. Jones ran track and played
football at Duke University while Hines starred at both sports at Southern
Illinois,

Needless to say, none of these elite bobsledders grew up fantasizing about
risking life and limb running reckless down ice chutes. Consider Hines's
story. As a young boy growing up in Memphis, he certainly never gave winter
sports much of a thought. He dreamed about being a professional basketball
player, dunking hoops with Dr. J., or sliding past Magic Johnson for an easy
lay-up. He was fast-like lightning, he remembers. Instead, of pursuing
basketball, however, he ended up running track and playing football before
becoming a two-sport star in college.

Hines earned an undergraduate degree in biological science and a Masters in
education from SIU. In 1992, after graduation, one of his college buddies
decided to try out for the US bobsled team. What the heck, Hines thought. So
they piled into the car for the twenty-two-hour drive to Lake Placid to
pursue their crazy whim.

When he and his friend pulled into town after a day-long drive, there was
more snow than Hines had ever seen in his life. He went on to shock even
himself by making the team as a pusher-the second person in the two-man and
one of the two runners in the four-man bobsled whose job it is to launch the
sled careening down the mountain. I was so scared I almost quit right
there, he recalled thinking after his first training run.

Hines remembers the Nagano Games because as the first time an African
American had a realistic shot at an Olympic bobsled medal. He recalls his
final run, standing atop the mountain, prepared to hurtle down an ice-slick
run at speeds topping 80 miles an hour. Hines glanced across at teammate and
fellow pushman Jones, who now owns his own computer upgrading and repair
company. Jones was the 

Re: t-and-f: Re: TF athletes in winter Olympics?

2002-02-23 Thread alan tobin

Oxymoron?

Flowers Is No Fluke: Black Success In Bobsledding Part Of A Growing Winter 
Sport Tradition
The first ever gold medal victory by a black in the Winter Olympics...

How about ski jumping? Being very thin and having a strong push off the ramp 
are very important. Explosive muscles fibers are needed.

XC skiing? Oops...we've already been down that road.

Speed skating? Come on, black athletes should dominate just as they do on 
the iceless track.

Also, East Asian athletes seem to dominate the short track speed skating. 
Why is this? Is it about genetics? Or about an organized system that picks, 
chooses, and trains these athletes. Where there is a will there is a way.

I'm sorry Jon, but if genetic superiority was so superior then black 
athletes, no matter how few there are in the sports, should dominate the 
above events. Genetics is important, but not as much as you think it is.


Alan
http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004


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t-and-f: Limo, Chepchumba score cross country wins in Kenya

2002-02-23 Thread Michael J. Roth

Agence France-Presse

NAIROBI (February 23, 2002 11:22 AM EST)- A superb, well calculated run
gave Richard Limo his first national cross country title at the IAAF
permit meeting here on Saturday while Pamela Chepchumba upset a strong
field to win the women's title.

The World 5,000 meters champion stayed in a pack of eight athletes that
included the pre-race favorite and former champion Paul Koech, who
opened up an early lead after only two laps on the Ngong Racecourse.

On the final lap, Limo held off the fast-charging Albert Chepkurui to
cruise to victory in a rather slow time of 36 minutes 17 seconds, with
Chepkurui two seconds adrift.

After winning his first national title, Limo, twice World cross country
junior silver medalist in 1998 and 1999, said he was ready to step into
the shoes of his idol Paul Tergat.

Last year we lost the individual title for the second time. We are
going to work together as a team and make sure we return it to Kenya,
said Limo, who will lead the Kenyan team to the 30th World cross country
championships in Dublin.

Koech, who won the national title twice failed to make the team when he
finished 13th, finised one place ahead of former World silver medal
winner Tom Nyariki.

In a race that attracted a handful of foreigners, former Olympic 5,000
meters champion Dieter Baumann of Germany battled against Kenyan
domination and trailed home in 85th place.

Chepchumba, a silver medalist in 1993, destroyed her rivals, which
included the three fastest marathon runners to finish well clear of the
rest in 27:13.

Jepkorir Aiyabei was second in 27:23 while Monica Wangare (27:33) was
third.

Edith Masai, 34, will contest the four-kilometer short course race in
Dublin hoping to improve on her third place last year.




Re: t-and-f: Re: TF athletes in winter Olympics?

2002-02-23 Thread Jon Entine

Alan:

Unfortunately, Alan, your analysis is flawed and reflects as usual a
determined myopic and unscientific view of basic physiology and body types
by population.

For the record, I did not mention in this article genetic superiority.
That's an ignorant concept, one that I have always argued against.

I did not raise such an issue in this or any other article I've ever written
and never once used that phrase in Taboo (I used the phrase innate
superiority once in a chapter heading introducing the 'strawman' claim by
environmental dogmatists such as yourself tha). The only people who use such
phrases are those like yourself who claim that some who embrace a nuanced,
bio-cultural perspective, are genetic determinists. In fact, in Taboo, I
have an entire chapter that discusses the environmentalists 'strawman'
argument against 'innate superiority' YOU are the only one raising that
disingenuous issue.

And I did not write that social and environmental conditions are not
important. There are not many Texans doing well in the ski jump either.
Again, another strawman argument.

The relative interwoven relationship between genetic factors and cultural
ones will always be impossible to tease out. However, your assertion that
the fact that athletes of West African ancestry do not dominate ski jumping
somehow minimizes the findings that the distrubution curve of quick athletes
of West African acnestry is longer and thicker than most other populations
is just silly. 

For the record, I never argued the relative importance of genetics vs.
cultural/environmental factors. They are obviously intertwined. For you to

The only points that I am making, which in your fervor you refuse to
consider, is that body type and physiology are key characteristics in
certain athletic events and that those characteritistics are not equally
distributed by population.

That is science 101 (or actually junior high level science). I guess
evolutionary biologists, anthropologists, geneticists, and sports
scientists, such as Bengt Saltin do not have your sophisticated, nuanced
view of such issues.

It's clear you know little about bobsledding. The pusher/runner position is
dominated by athletes who are the fastest and quickest. It is without
question that people of West African ancestry are more likely, per capita,
to have those characteristics than other population groups. So it is
therefore not surprising that the runner position in bobsledding is fertile
terriitory for athletes of West African ancestry.

Now Kenya is trying to become involved in international bobsledding. They
are no more likley succeed in that endeavor than they will succeed in
becoming an international soccer power, come to domiminate sprinting, or
turn out the next great long jumpers. It won't happen, any mor than Eskimos
will come to dominate as NBA centers or a Watusi will become the next world
heavyweight lifting champion.

You are obviously disinclined to acknowledge even this very basic science of
body type distribution patterns. That's your choice. Some people believe
that the earth is flat.

On 2/23/02 10:28 AM, alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Oxymoron?
 
 Flowers Is No Fluke: Black Success In Bobsledding Part Of A Growing Winter
 Sport Tradition
 The first ever gold medal victory by a black in the Winter Olympics...
 
 How about ski jumping? Being very thin and having a strong push off the ramp
 are very important. Explosive muscles fibers are needed.
 
 XC skiing? Oops...we've already been down that road.
 
 Speed skating? Come on, black athletes should dominate just as they do on
 the iceless track.
 
 Also, East Asian athletes seem to dominate the short track speed skating.
 Why is this? Is it about genetics? Or about an organized system that picks,
 chooses, and trains these athletes. Where there is a will there is a way.
 
 I'm sorry Jon, but if genetic superiority was so superior then black
 athletes, no matter how few there are in the sports, should dominate the
 above events. Genetics is important, but not as much as you think it is.
 
 
 Alan
 http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004
 
 
 _
 Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
 

-- 
Jon Entine
RuffRun
6178 Grey Rock Rd.
Agoura Hills, CA 91301
(818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804
http://www.jonentine.com




t-and-f: The Greek team for the European Champs

2002-02-23 Thread Michalis Nikitaridis

After the end of the Balkan Games, the Greek Federation announced the team
for the European Championships

MEN. Angelos Pavlakakis (60m.), Georgios Theodoridis (60m.), Aristotelis
Gavelas (60m.), Anastassios Goussis (200m., 400m.), Stylianos Dimotsios
(400m.), Panayotis Stroubakos (1500m), Dimitrios Kokotis (high jump),
Anastassios Makrynikolas and Constantinos Koukodimos (long jump),
Constantinos Zalagitis (triple jump).

WOMEN. Georgia Kokloni (60m), Paraskevi Patoulidou (60m), Yanoula Kafetzi
(60m), Marina Vassarmidou (200m), Flora Redoumi (60mh), Georgia Tsiliggiri
(pole vault), Niki Xanthou and Stella Pilatou (long jump), Chryssopigi
Devetzi (triple jump).

Michalis Nikitaridis
www.athletix.org





t-and-f: New England Intercollegiates - Feb 22-23

2002-02-23 Thread Steve Vaitones

Boston University
February 21-22, 2002

University of Connecticut wins its ninth straight New England title with a 
meet record point total.
Dan Wilson ran 4:01.72 and 4:01.32  in the mile trials/finals.
No Heps schools (Hep champs same weekend)

Full results at www.neicaaa.org  under past events / results

Teams: 1.Connecticut, 180; 2.Northeastern(=NU), 70; 3.UMass Lowell (II) 46; 
4.Rhode Island, 41; 5.Wheaton (III) 36; 6.M.I.T. (III) 33

55:  1.Kwesi Boateng, Mass. 6.34; 2.Adebo Oshodi Conn 6.49; Jamiyl Peters, 
Williams (III) 6.53
55HH:1.Colin Aina, RI, 7.37; 2.Hassan Wajd, Mass-Lowell, 7.44; 3.Paul 
Klemic, NU, 7.55
200: 1.Joe Mendel Conn 21.47; 2.Oshdi, 21.67; 3.Tony Lordo, RI, 21.88
400: 1.Mike Paige, Mass=Lowell 48.07; 2.Matt Adler, BostonU  48.15; 3.Craig 
Lange, NH, 48.26
500: 1.Bryan McCants, NU, 1:03.24; 2.Brian Donahue, CentlConn, 1:04.03; 
3.Phil Levesque, Mass-Lowell 1:04.16
800: 1.Mike McKenzie, BostonCol, 1:54.22; 2.Joel Legare, Conn, 1:54.68; 
3.Jim Trembley, Conn 1:54.86
1000: 1.Elliott Blount, Conn, 2:29.36; 2.Kevin Alliette, Mass-Lowell, 
2:29.99; 3.Bereshith Adams, Conn, 2:30.13.
Mile: 1.Dan Wilson, Conn, 4:01.32; 2.Dan Hocking, New Hampshire 4:05.26; 
3.Sean Montgomery  MIT  4:11.00.  Wilson 4:01.72 in Trials
3000: 1.Ryan Bak, Trinity (III) 8:19.78; 2.Eric Fleckenstein, Conn, 
8:20.46; 3.Byron Gartrell, BosCol, 8:26.45;
5000: 1.Sean Nolan, MIT, 14:43.04; 2.Aristides Cruz, Tufts (III), 14:45.25; 
3.Pat Vardaro, Bowdoin (III), 14;46.24
4x400: 1.UMass Lowell 3:15.89; 2.New Hampshire, 3:16.58; 3.Boston U 3:16.94.
4x800: 1.Connecticut, 7:37.06; 2.Boston College 7:37.36; 3.MIT 7:40.17
DMR1.Connecticut, 10:06.21; 2.Massachusetts, 10:11.09; 3.Tufts (III) 
10:12.13

HJ:1.Dan Olson, Wheaton (III), 2.16m/7'1; 2.Raheim Greenridge, 
Wheaton, 2.11m/6'11; 3.Art Dybizbanski, Keene St (III), 2.06m/6'9
PV:1.Chris Mazza, Conn, 5.03m/16'6; 2.Ryan Cahill, NU, 4.80m/15'9; 
3.Will Thomas, Conn, 4.80m/15'9
LJ:1.Mark Jellison, Conn, 7.10m/23'3.5; 2.Paul Klemic NU 
7.10m/23'3.5; 3.Ron Cook, Conn 6.97m/22'10.5
TJ:1.Greenridge 14.76m/48'5.25; 2.Cook 14.59m/47'10.5; 3.Lloyd Collins 
NU 14.23m/46'8.25
SP:1.Derek Anderson, NU, 16.45m/53'11.75; 2.Jeff Guillmette, Vermont, 
16.44m/53'11.25; 3.Chris Ferrara, BostonU, 16.13m/52'11
Wt;1.James Rooney, RI, 19.37m/63'6.75; 2.Vin Tortorella, NU, 
18.79m/61'7.75; 3.Jaime Sawler, Bates(III), 18.34m/60'2
Pent:  1.Brian Irwin, Boston U, 3588; 2.Chad Cauldwell, Conn, 3431; 
3.Daniel Conti, HolyCross, 3384
Steve Vaitones
Managing Director
USA Track  Field - New England Association
P.O.Box 1905
Brookline MA 02446-0016
Phone: 617 566 7600
Fax: 617 734 6322
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.usatfne.org



t-and-f: AP - Penn State pole vaulter killed in fall

2002-02-23 Thread Christopher Goss

Track friends,

Please say a few extra prayers tonight for Kevin Dare's family, Coach Grove,
and all of the Penn State track team.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_

Penn State pole vaulter killed in fall

February 23, 2002

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) -- Penn State pole vaulter Kevin Dare died Saturday after
landing on his head during the Big Ten indoor championships.

After being treated by emergency medical technicians at the University of
Minnesota Fieldhouse, Dare was taken to the Hennepin County Medical Center
where he was pronounced dead.


Remainder of story at
http://sports.yahoo.com/m/sa/news/ap/20020223/ap-trackdeath.html





t-and-f: Tragedy at Big Tens

2002-02-23 Thread Joseph Karlgaard

Kevin Dare, a sophomore pole vaulter at Penn State, was killed during the 
vault competition at the Big 10 Championships in Minneapolis.  A statement 
regarding Dare can be found at www.gophersports.com






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t-and-f: boos for Regina's world record

2002-02-23 Thread Post, Marty

Regina Jacobs is unquestionably one of the greatest distance runners in the
history of US track and field and naturally her sponsorship contracts reward
her amply for significant accomplishments but her even she should be
embarassed by her latest record at NY today.

In an indoor 3 mile race at the Armory she ran a world record 14:44.11,
the previous best 14:53.80.

The 3 mile is, of course, not an official IAAF record distance, meaning it's
virtually never run anywhere anytime. The 5000m, in itself rarely run, is
the IAAF standard event. Jacobs averaged just under 4:55 per mile so she
should probably would not have been under 15:15 for 5000 meters. About 30
seconds slower than WR of 14:47.

Thumbs down to everyone involved with today's farce.



t-and-f: Penn State Pole Vaulter Dies at Big Ten Championships

2002-02-23 Thread John Sun


[February 23, 2002] 

 
Kevin Dare, a member of the Penn State men's track and
field team, died today while competing at the Big Ten
Men's Indoor Track and Field Championships in
Minneapolis, Minn. A sophomore from State College,
Dare, 19, fell during a pole vault attempt and hit his
head on the ground at approximately 2:40 p.m. CT.
After being treated by EMTs on site at the University
of Minnesota Fieldhouse, he was taken to the Hennepin
County Medical Center where he was pronounced dead a
short time later as a result of a fatal head trauma. 
Our thoughts and prayers are with Kevin's family and
friends, said Tim Curley, Penn State Director of
Athletics. This is a very sad and difficult day for
the Penn State and State College communities. Kevin
was an outstanding, personable young man. He had many
friends in State College and on campus. Kevin was an
accomplished student and athlete at State College High
School and had several significant achievements during
his first two years at Penn State. It's just a
terrible tragedy and our hearts go out to the Dare
family. 

Dare's best effort this season was clearing 16-4 3/4
in the USTCA series meet January 12 at Penn State's
Horace Ashenfelter III Indoor Track. Last season, he
placed fifth in the pole vault at the IC
Championships, helping seal the team championship for
Coach Harry Groves' squad. 

Dare won the pole vault at the United States Track and
Field Junior National Championships last June, winning
the event by clearing 16-6 3/ 4. That victory gave him
an opportunity to compete in a Team USA vs. Great
Britain meet, where he also was victorious. Dare also
competed for the United States at the Pan American
Junior Championships in Argentina last fall. 

As a member of the State College Area High School
team, Dare won the 2000 PIAA state championship in the
pole vault. He also played football for the Little
Lions.Dare's older brother, Eric, throws the javelin
for the Penn State track team in the spring and is a
defensive back for the Nittany Lion football team. 

Arrangements for Kevin Dare are pending. 
 


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Re: t-and-f: Re: TF athletes in winter Olympics?

2002-02-23 Thread alan tobin

The only points that I am making, which in your fervor you refuse to
consider, is that body type and physiology are key characteristics in
certain athletic events and that those characteritistics are not equally
distributed by population.

Never once have I argued against this. I do believe that body type and 
physiology are key characteristics in athletic events and I also believe 
that they are not equally distributed by population. Never once have I 
argued against that. What I do argue against are certain key statements 
made by you such as An American/European will never win a distance medal 
or the recent Flowers no fluke in which you seemingly claim black athletes 
are on the rise and are about to dominate such activities as pushing a sled 
down a hill. The fact is Flowers is a fluke. I don't argue with your main 
points and your main argument that certain populations are blessed with 
certain characteristics that make them, as populations not individuals, 
better at certain sports...I FULLY AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS. What I find 
troublesome are your come buy my book, listen to me remarks such as the 
above two. To say An American/European will never win a distance medal is 
simply ignorant on your part because ANYTHING is possible. Just because the 
needed genetic characteristics are harder to find in the American/European 
world does not mean it would be impossible to find such a person win a 
distance gold. One could also say a white mane will never again win a 200m 
gold, but that's already been done recently hasn't it?

In the end, we're both right, and we're both wrong, depending on which of 
your statements we are arguing...the come buy my books, I'm a controvertial 
man remarks, or your very well thought out main ideas, which I fully agree 
with.

Alan

From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED],   t-and-f-digest 
[EMAIL PROTECTED],   Track and Field List 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: t-and-f: Re: TF athletes in winter Olympics?
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Precedence: bulk

Alan:

Unfortunately, Alan, your analysis is flawed and reflects as usual a
determined myopic and unscientific view of basic physiology and body types
by population.

For the record, I did not mention in this article genetic superiority.
That's an ignorant concept, one that I have always argued against.

I did not raise such an issue in this or any other article I've ever 
written
and never once used that phrase in Taboo (I used the phrase innate
superiority once in a chapter heading introducing the 'strawman' claim by
environmental dogmatists such as yourself tha). The only people who use 
such
phrases are those like yourself who claim that some who embrace a nuanced,
bio-cultural perspective, are genetic determinists. In fact, in Taboo, I
have an entire chapter that discusses the environmentalists 'strawman'
argument against 'innate superiority' YOU are the only one raising that
disingenuous issue.

And I did not write that social and environmental conditions are not
important. There are not many Texans doing well in the ski jump either.
Again, another strawman argument.

The relative interwoven relationship between genetic factors and cultural
ones will always be impossible to tease out. However, your assertion that
the fact that athletes of West African ancestry do not dominate ski jumping
somehow minimizes the findings that the distrubution curve of quick 
athletes
of West African acnestry is longer and thicker than most other populations
is just silly.

For the record, I never argued the relative importance of genetics vs.
cultural/environmental factors. They are obviously intertwined. For you to

The only points that I am making, which in your fervor you refuse to
consider, is that body type and physiology are key characteristics in
certain athletic events and 

t-and-f: Now if more people had balls like these . . . .

2002-02-23 Thread P N Heidenstrom


Agence France-Presse

LIEVEN, France (February 21, 2002 02:12 PM EST) - The controversial
Russian distance runner Olga Yegorova has not been invited to run in
Sunday's indoor athletics meeting because she failed to meet the
organizers' family-friendly criteria.

A French promoter has also hit on the idea I tried to put to
this list a couple of years ago (but no-one was interested).

Simply carry this decision a little further and all the legal problems
concerning anti-drug rules that US members get so uptight about would
be solved overnight. 

But first just stop talking and think. The answer should not be too
difficult to see.

P N H




t-and-f: very sad news out of Minneapolis

2002-02-23 Thread Reuben Frank

  Mark Craig's Star-Tribune piece on the death today
of Penn State pole vaulter Kevin Dare is here:

  http://www.startribune.com/stories/503/1645942.html

=

This content in no way reflects the opinions, standards, or policy of the United 
States Air Force Academy or the United States government.


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t-and-f: Off topic, but appropriate

2002-02-23 Thread Michael J. Roth

In the spirit of Monty Python, I post this to the list.  You can insert
anyone's name (esp mine) and it will work well to give a general idea of
list dynamics.

More of these can be found at http://www.intriguing.com/mp/

Enjoy,
MJR

___

   Title: Argument Sketch

From: Monty Python's Flying Circus

  Transcribed By: unknown





A man walks into an office.



Man: Good morning, I'd like to have an argument, please.

Receptionist: Certainly, sir.  Have you been here before?

Man: No, this is my first time.

Receptionist: I see, well we'll see who's free at the moment.

  Mr. Bakely's free, but he's a little bit concilliatory.
No.

  Try Mr. Barnhart, room 12.

Man: Thank you.



He enters room 12.



Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT?

Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that...

Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED EVIL PAN OF DROPPINGS!

Man: What?

A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT!  YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE!  YOU
VACUOUS

   STUFFY-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!

M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!

A: OH!  Oh!  I'm sorry!  This is abuse!

M: Oh!  Oh I see!

A: Aha!  No, you want room 12A, next door.

M: Oh...Sorry...

A: Not at all!

A: (under his breath) stupid git.



The man goes into room 12A.  Another man is sitting behind a desk.



Man: Is this the right room for an argument?

Other Man:(pause) I've told you once.

Man:  No you haven't!

Other Man: Yes I have.

M: When?

O: Just now.

M: No you didn't!

O: Yes I did!

M: You didn't!

O: I did!

M: You didn't!

O: I'm telling you, I did!

M: You didn't!

O: Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

M: Ah!  (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.

O: Just the five minutes.  Thank you.

O: Anyway, I did.

M: You most certainly did not!

O: Now let's get one thing perfectly clear: I most definitely told you!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!



(pause)



O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!



(pause)



M: It's just contradiction!

O: No it isn't!

M: It IS!

O: It is NOT!

M: You just contradicted me!

O: No I didn't!

M: You DID!

O: No no no!

M: You did just then!

O: Nonsense!

M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!

   (pause)

O: No it isn't!

M: Yes it is!

   (pause)

M: I came here for a good argument!

O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!

M: An argument isn't just contradiction.

O: Well!  it CAN be!

M: No it can't!

M: An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish
a

   proposition.

O: No it isn't!

M: Yes it is!  'tisn't just contradiction.

O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!

M: Yes but it isn't just saying no it isn't.

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it ISN'T!  Argument is an intellectual process.  Contradiction is
just

   the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.

O: It is NOT!

M: It is!

O: Not at all!

M: It is!



The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.



O: Thank you, that's it.

M: (stunned) What?

O: That's it.  Good morning.

M: But I was just getting interested!

O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.

M: That was never five minutes!!

O: I'm afraid it was.

M: (leading on)  No it wasn't.

O: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.

M: WHAT??

O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five

   minutes.

M: But that was never five minutes just now!

   Oh Come on!

   Oh this is...

   This is ridiculous!

O: I told you...

   I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!

M: Oh all right.  (takes out his wallet and pays again.)  There you are.

O: Thank you.

M: (clears throat) Well...

O: Well WHAT?

M: That was never five minutes just now.

O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!

M: Well I just paid!

O: No you didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I-dbct-fd-tq! I don't want to argue about it!

O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!

M: Ah hah!  Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing???  Ah HAAHHH!

   Gotcha!

O: No you haven't!

M: Yes I have!

   If you're arguing, I must have paid.

O: Not necessarily.

   I *could* be arguing in my spare time.

M: I've had enough of this!

O: No you haven't.

  (door slam)






t-and-f: Nice Colorado Double

2002-02-23 Thread John Sun

Coming off their impressive performances at the USA
Cross Country Nationals, Colorado's Jorge Torres and
Dathan Ritzenhein traded wins in the 5K and 3K at the
Big 12 Championships at Nebraska:

5000 Meter Run (Feb 22)
1. Jorge Torres, 13:51.32
2. Dathan Ritzenhein, 13:52.41 

3,000 Metter Run (Feb 23)
1. Dathan Ritzenhein, 8:01.72
2. Jorge Torres, 8:02.75 

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