t-and-f: Re: TF athletes in winter Olympics?
The following article in The Black World Today (and another in Africana.com) addresses an aspect of TF athletes in the winter Olympics... -- Jon Entine http://www.tbwt.com/views/specialrpt/specialrpt_0249.asp Flowers Is No Fluke: Black Success In Bobsledding Part Of A Growing Winter Sport Tradition 02-22-02 By Jon Entine Guest Contributor The first ever gold medal victory by a black in the Winter Olympics, by bobsleigh pusher and brakewoman Vonetta Flowers, comes as a shock only to those unfamiliar with the history of success of blacks in this daring sport. Bobsledding is the only Olympic winter event in which black athletes have not only competed, but thrived. That black athletes or athletes of color in general have not taken most winter sports by storm should come as little surprise and of no automatic indication of racism. After all, skin color is a geographical marker with darker shades correlated with warmer climes. By the numbers, there are far fewer blacks in countries that dominate winter sports or in the northern regions of the United States from where most winter athletes hail. But bobsledding is different. This year there are three blacks on the men's and women's teams, about par for recent US squads. Flowers is joined by two-time Olympians Garrett Hines and Randy Jones. Just a few days ago, Hines missed a medal in the two-man by a heartbreaking .03 seconds. All three are runners, the athletes who launch the sled, then jump in for the ride. The most critical factor in bobsledding is the start. If it's explosive, it can give a two- or four-man team an edge that can sometimes overcome a lesser-quality sled or a bumpy ride. Flowers and her teammate, driver Jill Bakken, attribute much of their win to incredible starts in their two runs. Hines, Jones and Flowers also share athletic backgrounds: they are former sprinting stars. That's not surprising to those familiar with the science of body types and athletic performance. According to scientists, African Americans, who are of West African ancestry, are the population group most likely to have explosive fast twitch muscle fibers. It's a strong genetic component what type of muscle fiber you have, either slow or face says Bengt Saltin, director of the Copenhagen Muscle Research Center. According to Saltin, who just received an award of his own at these Games, selected as the 2002 recipient of the IOC Olympic Prize on Sport Sciences, African Americans and other populations of West African ancestry, should continue to flourish in sports that require quick speed bursts. West Africans have already 70 or 75 percent of the fast type when they are born. And that's needed for a 100 meter race around 9.9 seconds. Because quickness is so important, it makes sense that the most explosive contemporary athletes-blacks who trace their ancestry to West Africa-would be among the best bobsled pushers. Flowers was a seven time All-American at the University of Alabama who turned to bobsledding in a fluke a few years ago after she failed in her dream to make the US Summer team going to Sydney. Jones ran track and played football at Duke University while Hines starred at both sports at Southern Illinois, Needless to say, none of these elite bobsledders grew up fantasizing about risking life and limb running reckless down ice chutes. Consider Hines's story. As a young boy growing up in Memphis, he certainly never gave winter sports much of a thought. He dreamed about being a professional basketball player, dunking hoops with Dr. J., or sliding past Magic Johnson for an easy lay-up. He was fast-like lightning, he remembers. Instead, of pursuing basketball, however, he ended up running track and playing football before becoming a two-sport star in college. Hines earned an undergraduate degree in biological science and a Masters in education from SIU. In 1992, after graduation, one of his college buddies decided to try out for the US bobsled team. What the heck, Hines thought. So they piled into the car for the twenty-two-hour drive to Lake Placid to pursue their crazy whim. When he and his friend pulled into town after a day-long drive, there was more snow than Hines had ever seen in his life. He went on to shock even himself by making the team as a pusher-the second person in the two-man and one of the two runners in the four-man bobsled whose job it is to launch the sled careening down the mountain. I was so scared I almost quit right there, he recalled thinking after his first training run. Hines remembers the Nagano Games because as the first time an African American had a realistic shot at an Olympic bobsled medal. He recalls his final run, standing atop the mountain, prepared to hurtle down an ice-slick run at speeds topping 80 miles an hour. Hines glanced across at teammate and fellow pushman Jones, who now owns his own computer upgrading and repair company. Jones was the
Re: t-and-f: Re: TF athletes in winter Olympics?
Oxymoron? Flowers Is No Fluke: Black Success In Bobsledding Part Of A Growing Winter Sport Tradition The first ever gold medal victory by a black in the Winter Olympics... How about ski jumping? Being very thin and having a strong push off the ramp are very important. Explosive muscles fibers are needed. XC skiing? Oops...we've already been down that road. Speed skating? Come on, black athletes should dominate just as they do on the iceless track. Also, East Asian athletes seem to dominate the short track speed skating. Why is this? Is it about genetics? Or about an organized system that picks, chooses, and trains these athletes. Where there is a will there is a way. I'm sorry Jon, but if genetic superiority was so superior then black athletes, no matter how few there are in the sports, should dominate the above events. Genetics is important, but not as much as you think it is. Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
t-and-f: Limo, Chepchumba score cross country wins in Kenya
Agence France-Presse NAIROBI (February 23, 2002 11:22 AM EST)- A superb, well calculated run gave Richard Limo his first national cross country title at the IAAF permit meeting here on Saturday while Pamela Chepchumba upset a strong field to win the women's title. The World 5,000 meters champion stayed in a pack of eight athletes that included the pre-race favorite and former champion Paul Koech, who opened up an early lead after only two laps on the Ngong Racecourse. On the final lap, Limo held off the fast-charging Albert Chepkurui to cruise to victory in a rather slow time of 36 minutes 17 seconds, with Chepkurui two seconds adrift. After winning his first national title, Limo, twice World cross country junior silver medalist in 1998 and 1999, said he was ready to step into the shoes of his idol Paul Tergat. Last year we lost the individual title for the second time. We are going to work together as a team and make sure we return it to Kenya, said Limo, who will lead the Kenyan team to the 30th World cross country championships in Dublin. Koech, who won the national title twice failed to make the team when he finished 13th, finised one place ahead of former World silver medal winner Tom Nyariki. In a race that attracted a handful of foreigners, former Olympic 5,000 meters champion Dieter Baumann of Germany battled against Kenyan domination and trailed home in 85th place. Chepchumba, a silver medalist in 1993, destroyed her rivals, which included the three fastest marathon runners to finish well clear of the rest in 27:13. Jepkorir Aiyabei was second in 27:23 while Monica Wangare (27:33) was third. Edith Masai, 34, will contest the four-kilometer short course race in Dublin hoping to improve on her third place last year.
Re: t-and-f: Re: TF athletes in winter Olympics?
Alan: Unfortunately, Alan, your analysis is flawed and reflects as usual a determined myopic and unscientific view of basic physiology and body types by population. For the record, I did not mention in this article genetic superiority. That's an ignorant concept, one that I have always argued against. I did not raise such an issue in this or any other article I've ever written and never once used that phrase in Taboo (I used the phrase innate superiority once in a chapter heading introducing the 'strawman' claim by environmental dogmatists such as yourself tha). The only people who use such phrases are those like yourself who claim that some who embrace a nuanced, bio-cultural perspective, are genetic determinists. In fact, in Taboo, I have an entire chapter that discusses the environmentalists 'strawman' argument against 'innate superiority' YOU are the only one raising that disingenuous issue. And I did not write that social and environmental conditions are not important. There are not many Texans doing well in the ski jump either. Again, another strawman argument. The relative interwoven relationship between genetic factors and cultural ones will always be impossible to tease out. However, your assertion that the fact that athletes of West African ancestry do not dominate ski jumping somehow minimizes the findings that the distrubution curve of quick athletes of West African acnestry is longer and thicker than most other populations is just silly. For the record, I never argued the relative importance of genetics vs. cultural/environmental factors. They are obviously intertwined. For you to The only points that I am making, which in your fervor you refuse to consider, is that body type and physiology are key characteristics in certain athletic events and that those characteritistics are not equally distributed by population. That is science 101 (or actually junior high level science). I guess evolutionary biologists, anthropologists, geneticists, and sports scientists, such as Bengt Saltin do not have your sophisticated, nuanced view of such issues. It's clear you know little about bobsledding. The pusher/runner position is dominated by athletes who are the fastest and quickest. It is without question that people of West African ancestry are more likely, per capita, to have those characteristics than other population groups. So it is therefore not surprising that the runner position in bobsledding is fertile terriitory for athletes of West African ancestry. Now Kenya is trying to become involved in international bobsledding. They are no more likley succeed in that endeavor than they will succeed in becoming an international soccer power, come to domiminate sprinting, or turn out the next great long jumpers. It won't happen, any mor than Eskimos will come to dominate as NBA centers or a Watusi will become the next world heavyweight lifting champion. You are obviously disinclined to acknowledge even this very basic science of body type distribution patterns. That's your choice. Some people believe that the earth is flat. On 2/23/02 10:28 AM, alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oxymoron? Flowers Is No Fluke: Black Success In Bobsledding Part Of A Growing Winter Sport Tradition The first ever gold medal victory by a black in the Winter Olympics... How about ski jumping? Being very thin and having a strong push off the ramp are very important. Explosive muscles fibers are needed. XC skiing? Oops...we've already been down that road. Speed skating? Come on, black athletes should dominate just as they do on the iceless track. Also, East Asian athletes seem to dominate the short track speed skating. Why is this? Is it about genetics? Or about an organized system that picks, chooses, and trains these athletes. Where there is a will there is a way. I'm sorry Jon, but if genetic superiority was so superior then black athletes, no matter how few there are in the sports, should dominate the above events. Genetics is important, but not as much as you think it is. Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: The Greek team for the European Champs
After the end of the Balkan Games, the Greek Federation announced the team for the European Championships MEN. Angelos Pavlakakis (60m.), Georgios Theodoridis (60m.), Aristotelis Gavelas (60m.), Anastassios Goussis (200m., 400m.), Stylianos Dimotsios (400m.), Panayotis Stroubakos (1500m), Dimitrios Kokotis (high jump), Anastassios Makrynikolas and Constantinos Koukodimos (long jump), Constantinos Zalagitis (triple jump). WOMEN. Georgia Kokloni (60m), Paraskevi Patoulidou (60m), Yanoula Kafetzi (60m), Marina Vassarmidou (200m), Flora Redoumi (60mh), Georgia Tsiliggiri (pole vault), Niki Xanthou and Stella Pilatou (long jump), Chryssopigi Devetzi (triple jump). Michalis Nikitaridis www.athletix.org
t-and-f: New England Intercollegiates - Feb 22-23
Boston University February 21-22, 2002 University of Connecticut wins its ninth straight New England title with a meet record point total. Dan Wilson ran 4:01.72 and 4:01.32 in the mile trials/finals. No Heps schools (Hep champs same weekend) Full results at www.neicaaa.org under past events / results Teams: 1.Connecticut, 180; 2.Northeastern(=NU), 70; 3.UMass Lowell (II) 46; 4.Rhode Island, 41; 5.Wheaton (III) 36; 6.M.I.T. (III) 33 55: 1.Kwesi Boateng, Mass. 6.34; 2.Adebo Oshodi Conn 6.49; Jamiyl Peters, Williams (III) 6.53 55HH:1.Colin Aina, RI, 7.37; 2.Hassan Wajd, Mass-Lowell, 7.44; 3.Paul Klemic, NU, 7.55 200: 1.Joe Mendel Conn 21.47; 2.Oshdi, 21.67; 3.Tony Lordo, RI, 21.88 400: 1.Mike Paige, Mass=Lowell 48.07; 2.Matt Adler, BostonU 48.15; 3.Craig Lange, NH, 48.26 500: 1.Bryan McCants, NU, 1:03.24; 2.Brian Donahue, CentlConn, 1:04.03; 3.Phil Levesque, Mass-Lowell 1:04.16 800: 1.Mike McKenzie, BostonCol, 1:54.22; 2.Joel Legare, Conn, 1:54.68; 3.Jim Trembley, Conn 1:54.86 1000: 1.Elliott Blount, Conn, 2:29.36; 2.Kevin Alliette, Mass-Lowell, 2:29.99; 3.Bereshith Adams, Conn, 2:30.13. Mile: 1.Dan Wilson, Conn, 4:01.32; 2.Dan Hocking, New Hampshire 4:05.26; 3.Sean Montgomery MIT 4:11.00. Wilson 4:01.72 in Trials 3000: 1.Ryan Bak, Trinity (III) 8:19.78; 2.Eric Fleckenstein, Conn, 8:20.46; 3.Byron Gartrell, BosCol, 8:26.45; 5000: 1.Sean Nolan, MIT, 14:43.04; 2.Aristides Cruz, Tufts (III), 14:45.25; 3.Pat Vardaro, Bowdoin (III), 14;46.24 4x400: 1.UMass Lowell 3:15.89; 2.New Hampshire, 3:16.58; 3.Boston U 3:16.94. 4x800: 1.Connecticut, 7:37.06; 2.Boston College 7:37.36; 3.MIT 7:40.17 DMR1.Connecticut, 10:06.21; 2.Massachusetts, 10:11.09; 3.Tufts (III) 10:12.13 HJ:1.Dan Olson, Wheaton (III), 2.16m/7'1; 2.Raheim Greenridge, Wheaton, 2.11m/6'11; 3.Art Dybizbanski, Keene St (III), 2.06m/6'9 PV:1.Chris Mazza, Conn, 5.03m/16'6; 2.Ryan Cahill, NU, 4.80m/15'9; 3.Will Thomas, Conn, 4.80m/15'9 LJ:1.Mark Jellison, Conn, 7.10m/23'3.5; 2.Paul Klemic NU 7.10m/23'3.5; 3.Ron Cook, Conn 6.97m/22'10.5 TJ:1.Greenridge 14.76m/48'5.25; 2.Cook 14.59m/47'10.5; 3.Lloyd Collins NU 14.23m/46'8.25 SP:1.Derek Anderson, NU, 16.45m/53'11.75; 2.Jeff Guillmette, Vermont, 16.44m/53'11.25; 3.Chris Ferrara, BostonU, 16.13m/52'11 Wt;1.James Rooney, RI, 19.37m/63'6.75; 2.Vin Tortorella, NU, 18.79m/61'7.75; 3.Jaime Sawler, Bates(III), 18.34m/60'2 Pent: 1.Brian Irwin, Boston U, 3588; 2.Chad Cauldwell, Conn, 3431; 3.Daniel Conti, HolyCross, 3384 Steve Vaitones Managing Director USA Track Field - New England Association P.O.Box 1905 Brookline MA 02446-0016 Phone: 617 566 7600 Fax: 617 734 6322 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.usatfne.org
t-and-f: AP - Penn State pole vaulter killed in fall
Track friends, Please say a few extra prayers tonight for Kevin Dare's family, Coach Grove, and all of the Penn State track team. [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Penn State pole vaulter killed in fall February 23, 2002 MINNEAPOLIS (AP) -- Penn State pole vaulter Kevin Dare died Saturday after landing on his head during the Big Ten indoor championships. After being treated by emergency medical technicians at the University of Minnesota Fieldhouse, Dare was taken to the Hennepin County Medical Center where he was pronounced dead. Remainder of story at http://sports.yahoo.com/m/sa/news/ap/20020223/ap-trackdeath.html
t-and-f: Tragedy at Big Tens
Kevin Dare, a sophomore pole vaulter at Penn State, was killed during the vault competition at the Big 10 Championships in Minneapolis. A statement regarding Dare can be found at www.gophersports.com _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
t-and-f: boos for Regina's world record
Regina Jacobs is unquestionably one of the greatest distance runners in the history of US track and field and naturally her sponsorship contracts reward her amply for significant accomplishments but her even she should be embarassed by her latest record at NY today. In an indoor 3 mile race at the Armory she ran a world record 14:44.11, the previous best 14:53.80. The 3 mile is, of course, not an official IAAF record distance, meaning it's virtually never run anywhere anytime. The 5000m, in itself rarely run, is the IAAF standard event. Jacobs averaged just under 4:55 per mile so she should probably would not have been under 15:15 for 5000 meters. About 30 seconds slower than WR of 14:47. Thumbs down to everyone involved with today's farce.
t-and-f: Penn State Pole Vaulter Dies at Big Ten Championships
[February 23, 2002] Kevin Dare, a member of the Penn State men's track and field team, died today while competing at the Big Ten Men's Indoor Track and Field Championships in Minneapolis, Minn. A sophomore from State College, Dare, 19, fell during a pole vault attempt and hit his head on the ground at approximately 2:40 p.m. CT. After being treated by EMTs on site at the University of Minnesota Fieldhouse, he was taken to the Hennepin County Medical Center where he was pronounced dead a short time later as a result of a fatal head trauma. Our thoughts and prayers are with Kevin's family and friends, said Tim Curley, Penn State Director of Athletics. This is a very sad and difficult day for the Penn State and State College communities. Kevin was an outstanding, personable young man. He had many friends in State College and on campus. Kevin was an accomplished student and athlete at State College High School and had several significant achievements during his first two years at Penn State. It's just a terrible tragedy and our hearts go out to the Dare family. Dare's best effort this season was clearing 16-4 3/4 in the USTCA series meet January 12 at Penn State's Horace Ashenfelter III Indoor Track. Last season, he placed fifth in the pole vault at the IC Championships, helping seal the team championship for Coach Harry Groves' squad. Dare won the pole vault at the United States Track and Field Junior National Championships last June, winning the event by clearing 16-6 3/ 4. That victory gave him an opportunity to compete in a Team USA vs. Great Britain meet, where he also was victorious. Dare also competed for the United States at the Pan American Junior Championships in Argentina last fall. As a member of the State College Area High School team, Dare won the 2000 PIAA state championship in the pole vault. He also played football for the Little Lions.Dare's older brother, Eric, throws the javelin for the Penn State track team in the spring and is a defensive back for the Nittany Lion football team. Arrangements for Kevin Dare are pending. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Re: TF athletes in winter Olympics?
The only points that I am making, which in your fervor you refuse to consider, is that body type and physiology are key characteristics in certain athletic events and that those characteritistics are not equally distributed by population. Never once have I argued against this. I do believe that body type and physiology are key characteristics in athletic events and I also believe that they are not equally distributed by population. Never once have I argued against that. What I do argue against are certain key statements made by you such as An American/European will never win a distance medal or the recent Flowers no fluke in which you seemingly claim black athletes are on the rise and are about to dominate such activities as pushing a sled down a hill. The fact is Flowers is a fluke. I don't argue with your main points and your main argument that certain populations are blessed with certain characteristics that make them, as populations not individuals, better at certain sports...I FULLY AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS. What I find troublesome are your come buy my book, listen to me remarks such as the above two. To say An American/European will never win a distance medal is simply ignorant on your part because ANYTHING is possible. Just because the needed genetic characteristics are harder to find in the American/European world does not mean it would be impossible to find such a person win a distance gold. One could also say a white mane will never again win a 200m gold, but that's already been done recently hasn't it? In the end, we're both right, and we're both wrong, depending on which of your statements we are arguing...the come buy my books, I'm a controvertial man remarks, or your very well thought out main ideas, which I fully agree with. Alan From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED], t-and-f-digest [EMAIL PROTECTED], Track and Field List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Re: TF athletes in winter Olympics? Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:05:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [128.223.142.13] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBE41361400CC40042A1080DF8E0DE8B50; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:19:01 -0800 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1NJ8rUT025658for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from majordom@localhost)by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1NJ8r4b025657for t-and-f-outgoing; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1NJ8pUT025651;Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:08:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from hsa118.pool012.at101.earthlink.net ([216.249.83.118] helo=[10.0.1.7])by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1)id 16ehXJ-0004qB-00; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:08:46 -0800 From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:20:26 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Alan: Unfortunately, Alan, your analysis is flawed and reflects as usual a determined myopic and unscientific view of basic physiology and body types by population. For the record, I did not mention in this article genetic superiority. That's an ignorant concept, one that I have always argued against. I did not raise such an issue in this or any other article I've ever written and never once used that phrase in Taboo (I used the phrase innate superiority once in a chapter heading introducing the 'strawman' claim by environmental dogmatists such as yourself tha). The only people who use such phrases are those like yourself who claim that some who embrace a nuanced, bio-cultural perspective, are genetic determinists. In fact, in Taboo, I have an entire chapter that discusses the environmentalists 'strawman' argument against 'innate superiority' YOU are the only one raising that disingenuous issue. And I did not write that social and environmental conditions are not important. There are not many Texans doing well in the ski jump either. Again, another strawman argument. The relative interwoven relationship between genetic factors and cultural ones will always be impossible to tease out. However, your assertion that the fact that athletes of West African ancestry do not dominate ski jumping somehow minimizes the findings that the distrubution curve of quick athletes of West African acnestry is longer and thicker than most other populations is just silly. For the record, I never argued the relative importance of genetics vs. cultural/environmental factors. They are obviously intertwined. For you to The only points that I am making, which in your fervor you refuse to consider, is that body type and physiology are key characteristics in certain athletic events and
t-and-f: Now if more people had balls like these . . . .
Agence France-Presse LIEVEN, France (February 21, 2002 02:12 PM EST) - The controversial Russian distance runner Olga Yegorova has not been invited to run in Sunday's indoor athletics meeting because she failed to meet the organizers' family-friendly criteria. A French promoter has also hit on the idea I tried to put to this list a couple of years ago (but no-one was interested). Simply carry this decision a little further and all the legal problems concerning anti-drug rules that US members get so uptight about would be solved overnight. But first just stop talking and think. The answer should not be too difficult to see. P N H
t-and-f: very sad news out of Minneapolis
Mark Craig's Star-Tribune piece on the death today of Penn State pole vaulter Kevin Dare is here: http://www.startribune.com/stories/503/1645942.html = This content in no way reflects the opinions, standards, or policy of the United States Air Force Academy or the United States government. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com
t-and-f: Off topic, but appropriate
In the spirit of Monty Python, I post this to the list. You can insert anyone's name (esp mine) and it will work well to give a general idea of list dynamics. More of these can be found at http://www.intriguing.com/mp/ Enjoy, MJR ___ Title: Argument Sketch From: Monty Python's Flying Circus Transcribed By: unknown A man walks into an office. Man: Good morning, I'd like to have an argument, please. Receptionist: Certainly, sir. Have you been here before? Man: No, this is my first time. Receptionist: I see, well we'll see who's free at the moment. Mr. Bakely's free, but he's a little bit concilliatory. No. Try Mr. Barnhart, room 12. Man: Thank you. He enters room 12. Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT? Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that... Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED EVIL PAN OF DROPPINGS! Man: What? A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS STUFFY-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!! M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!! A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse! M: Oh! Oh I see! A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door. M: Oh...Sorry... A: Not at all! A: (under his breath) stupid git. The man goes into room 12A. Another man is sitting behind a desk. Man: Is this the right room for an argument? Other Man:(pause) I've told you once. Man: No you haven't! Other Man: Yes I have. M: When? O: Just now. M: No you didn't! O: Yes I did! M: You didn't! O: I did! M: You didn't! O: I'm telling you, I did! M: You didn't! O: Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour? M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes. O: Just the five minutes. Thank you. O: Anyway, I did. M: You most certainly did not! O: Now let's get one thing perfectly clear: I most definitely told you! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: No you DIDN'T! O: Oh yes I did! M: No you DIDN'T! O: Oh yes I did! M: No you DIDN'T! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh look, this isn't an argument! (pause) O: Yes it is! M: No it isn't! (pause) M: It's just contradiction! O: No it isn't! M: It IS! O: It is NOT! M: You just contradicted me! O: No I didn't! M: You DID! O: No no no! M: You did just then! O: Nonsense! M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!! (pause) O: No it isn't! M: Yes it is! (pause) M: I came here for a good argument! O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument! M: An argument isn't just contradiction. O: Well! it CAN be! M: No it can't! M: An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a proposition. O: No it isn't! M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction. O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position! M: Yes but it isn't just saying no it isn't. O: Yes it is! M: No it isn't! O: Yes it is! M: No it isn't! O: Yes it is! M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says. O: It is NOT! M: It is! O: Not at all! M: It is! The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops. O: Thank you, that's it. M: (stunned) What? O: That's it. Good morning. M: But I was just getting interested! O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up. M: That was never five minutes!! O: I'm afraid it was. M: (leading on) No it wasn't. O: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more. M: WHAT?? O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes. M: But that was never five minutes just now! Oh Come on! Oh this is... This is ridiculous! O: I told you... I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY! M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.) There you are. O: Thank you. M: (clears throat) Well... O: Well WHAT? M: That was never five minutes just now. O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid! M: Well I just paid! O: No you didn't! M: I DID!!! O: YOU didn't! M: I DID!!! O: YOU didn't! M: I DID!!! O: YOU didn't! M: I DID!!! O: YOU didn't! M: I-dbct-fd-tq! I don't want to argue about it! O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay! M: Ah hah! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAHHH! Gotcha! O: No you haven't! M: Yes I have! If you're arguing, I must have paid. O: Not necessarily. I *could* be arguing in my spare time. M: I've had enough of this! O: No you haven't. (door slam)
t-and-f: Nice Colorado Double
Coming off their impressive performances at the USA Cross Country Nationals, Colorado's Jorge Torres and Dathan Ritzenhein traded wins in the 5K and 3K at the Big 12 Championships at Nebraska: 5000 Meter Run (Feb 22) 1. Jorge Torres, 13:51.32 2. Dathan Ritzenhein, 13:52.41 3,000 Metter Run (Feb 23) 1. Dathan Ritzenhein, 8:01.72 2. Jorge Torres, 8:02.75 __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com