Re: [Tagging] What's the difference in these tags?

[Paul Johnson]

This breaks routing where there is no dual carriageway.
On Sep 16, 2014 7:01 PM, "Bryce Nesbitt"  wrote:

> I map contraflow as dual carriageway, to avoid this issue.
> Both sides get oneway=yes, plus a full list of the modes allowed (psv,
> bicycle, etc).
>
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Re: [Tagging] The "not-shops": industrial, industry, or business

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:32 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> A map icon is what, 32x32 pixels or so? A couple of millimeters on the
> screen. As long as you stick to 20 POI icons, you will be able to select
> icons that are instantly recognizable. Something with a film strip...
> must be a cinema. Once you introduce 100 icons, your map becomes
> unreadable without a legend.


I agree!

I think there should be a limited set of shop icons.
And an infinite set of descriptions of what those shops sell.

And a generic shop icon (or dot) for any shop, even if it's the only one of
it's kind
(e.g. "dog collars").

Then you get to tag both for the rendering AND for the database.
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Re: [Tagging] What's the difference in these tags?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I map contraflow as dual carriageway, to avoid this issue.
Both sides get oneway=yes, plus a full list of the modes allowed (psv,
bicycle, etc).
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Re: [Tagging] What's the difference in these tags?

[Michael Kugelmann]

Am 15.09.2014 13:26, schrieb Dave F.:

oneway=yes to access:backward=no

oneway=yes is used sinde 10 years, IMHO there is no reason for a change!


just my 2 cents,
Michael.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tagging for complex junctions or traffic signals that are named

[johnw]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the end goal is:

 - to have junction names in korea, regardless of if they are traffic lights, 
and the symbol used there doesn't imply traffic lights, just a junction.

- In Japan, the old junction system evolved to be named traffic signals, and 
the symbol used there a  (horizontal) "signal" - so the end goal is to have the 
name and the signal icon shown over the intersection with it's name. 


so the "complex solution" is to map the the junction, (with different tags for 
Japan and Korea)  with the area's way sharing nodes with the traffic signals.

- in Japan's case, the complex solution must only render a single traffic icon, 
or it will ruin the purpose of using the intersection icon.


Note: 
I'm not sure about Korea, but because there is no such thing as "street 
addresses" in Japan - just lot numbers in (sometimes random) sequence across 
the section, the sections are somewhat in a grid (regardless of what street is 
adjacent to the property, or what street it gets accessed from), all maps are 
used in a relative fashion (Start at Matsu Station, go two lights down, turn 
left at the temple, and turn right at intersection named "Honcho 3"), not in an 
absolute way (here's the 300 block of Main street, and my goal is 322 Main St, 
so it will be right about here). named intersections may be named in sequence, 
(Honcho 1, Honcho 2, Honcho 3 in order) but this is not really reflected in the 
location address.  Any ad for a business or shop has a tiny map printed on it 
to show you the way to the shop, and most neighborhoods have residential maps 
on fences to show you where people live, to use if you were visiting some 
location before the days of Google Maps. in the past, adverts always used the 
common starting point of a train station, showing you how many actual signals, 
any named signals, temples, gas stations, or schools that were the way to your 
destination.  This relative mapping has added Motorway Junctions and Primary 
Road junctions as starting points as time has gone on.  The gist of what I'm 
trying to say is that accurately rendering a single signal icon is paramount 
for using a rendered map in Japan, because counting the number of signals 
between you and your destination is a commonly used and commonly advertised 
method of navigation when not using a GPS/NAVI. The western way of using street 
addresses and road signs displaying names of roads means finding your way 
without landmarks is easy, and it is what OSM is built around, but it is not 
the way people use maps here in Japan. Since Residential, Unclassified, and 
Tertiary roads are not named in Japan, the iconography and labeling of things 
besides the roads themselves is much more important.  

Javbw


On Sep 17, 2014, at 3:53 AM, Lukas Sommer  wrote:

>  
> how do you tag a named junction with a traffic signal ?
> highway=traffic_signal + junction=yes + name=* means that "name" is
> for the junction or for the traffic signals ?
> 
> For the junction!
> 
> For a named junction with a (not named) traffic signal: junction=yes + 
> highway=traffic_signals. (Quite common on Korea – on the ground, not in the 
> database.)
> 
> For a named traffic signal with a (not named) junction: simply 
> highway=traffic_signals.
>  
> And can we imagine a
> case where the junction and the traffic signals are both named (and
> possibly differently) ?
> 
> 
> Good point. That would be difficult… Currently I do not know of such a case. 
> Further thoughts about this?
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a landmark clock

[Tom Pfeifer]

Andy Mabbett wrote on 2014-09-16 22:10:

How should this clock:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamberlain_Clock

http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/187104810

be tagged? It's a notable landmark, but not a memorial.



It is already amenity=clock and has a name.
You might add tourism=attraction and start_date=1903 .

I'm not overly convinced by the 'historic=tower', though it fulfils the
height definition in the wiki. Thus, if tower, it should be man_made=tower,
in this case historic could be reduced to =yes, or historic=clock as this
is the main purpose.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a landmark clock

[Brad Neuhauser]

How about man_made=tower instead of historic=tower? You could also add
start_date=1903 to show the age.

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> How should this clock:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamberlain_Clock
>
>http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/187104810
>
> be tagged? It's a notable landmark, but not a memorial.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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[Tagging] How to tag a landmark clock

[Andy Mabbett]

How should this clock:

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamberlain_Clock

   http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/187104810

be tagged? It's a notable landmark, but not a memorial.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tagging for complex junctions or traffic signals that are named

[Lukas Sommer]

> how do you tag a named junction with a traffic signal ?
> highway=traffic_signal + junction=yes + name=* means that "name" is
> for the junction or for the traffic signals ?


For the junction!

For a named junction with a (not named) traffic signal: junction=yes +
highway=traffic_signals. (Quite common on Korea – on the ground, not in the
database.)

For a named traffic signal with a (not named) junction: simply
highway=traffic_signals.


> And can we imagine a
> case where the junction and the traffic signals are both named (and
> possibly differently) ?
>
>
Good point. That would be difficult… Currently I do not know of such a
case. Further thoughts about this?
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tagging for complex junctions or traffic signals that are named

[Pieren]

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Lukas Sommer  wrote:
> Currently in OSM we use yet
> highway=traffic_signals for traffic signal names in Japan. And we use yet
> junction=yes for junction names in Korea.

Sounds easy but...
how do you tag a named junction with a traffic signal ?
highway=traffic_signal + junction=yes + name=* means that "name" is
for the junction or for the traffic signals ? And can we imagine a
case where the junction and the traffic signals are both named (and
possibly differently) ?

Pieren

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tagging for complex junctions or traffic signals that are named

[Lukas Sommer]

We have a different situation in Japan (normally/mostly the name belongs to
the traffic signal system) and a different situation in Korea (the name
belongs to the junction). Currently in OSM we use yet
highway=traffic_signals for traffic signal names in Japan. And we use yet
junction=yes for junction names in Korea. This is yet an established
tagging. But it is used currently only on nodes (not an areas) and works
well only for simple situations.

The difference between traffic signal names and crossroad names is
meaningfull. The rendering is not the same. In openstreetmap-carto we have
currently rendered the name together with an icon for nodes with
highway=traffic_signals. But we have just the name without any icon for
nodes with junction=yes.

The proposal/RFC simply extends the existing and yet established tagging
conventions for nodes to be now used also on areas. It extends both
(junction=yes and highway=traffic_signals) independently, but guards the
difference between both. This was the intention…


Lukas Sommer

2014-09-16 14:49 GMT+00:00 Satoshi IIDA :

>
> > The name belongs to the junction and not to the traffic_signal, or am I
> wrong ?
> In Japan, Hokkaido region, there is 4 traffic_signals on 1 junction.
> Each traffic_signals and 1 junction has different name.
>
> Indeed it is rare case.
> But I think we need Lukas's idea to support it.
>
>
>
> 2014-09-16 23:38 GMT+09:00 fly :
>
>> Am 16.09.2014 08:54, schrieb Lukas Sommer:
>> >
>> >
>> > Would it not be more straight forward to use
>> junction=traffic_signal in
>> > Japan and only use highway=traffic_signal for the real lights ?
>> >
>> >
>> > Hm, I’m not sure. It could separete clearly the individual traffic
>> > signals from the traffic signal system/the covered area. The downside
>> > would be that we introduce a new tag, and if you are a contributer and
>> > you want just add such a name to OSM, you have to deal with two
>> > different taggings:
>> > – highway=traffic_signals + name=* for simple cases (as currently)
>> > – junction=traffic_signal + name=* for the complex cases.
>> > Not sure, but it seems to be more complicate?
>>
>> Simply use junction=traffic_signal as addition to
>> highway=traffic_signal. In long terms, we will have two separate objects.
>>
>> The name belongs to the junction and not to the traffic_signal, or am I
>> wrong ?
>>
>> cu fly
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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> mail: nyamp...@gmail.com
> twitter: @nyampire
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tagging for complex junctions or traffic signals that are named

[Satoshi IIDA]

> The name belongs to the junction and not to the traffic_signal, or am I
wrong ?
In Japan, Hokkaido region, there is 4 traffic_signals on 1 junction.
Each traffic_signals and 1 junction has different name.

Indeed it is rare case.
But I think we need Lukas's idea to support it.



2014-09-16 23:38 GMT+09:00 fly :

> Am 16.09.2014 08:54, schrieb Lukas Sommer:
> >
> >
> > Would it not be more straight forward to use junction=traffic_signal
> in
> > Japan and only use highway=traffic_signal for the real lights ?
> >
> >
> > Hm, I’m not sure. It could separete clearly the individual traffic
> > signals from the traffic signal system/the covered area. The downside
> > would be that we introduce a new tag, and if you are a contributer and
> > you want just add such a name to OSM, you have to deal with two
> > different taggings:
> > – highway=traffic_signals + name=* for simple cases (as currently)
> > – junction=traffic_signal + name=* for the complex cases.
> > Not sure, but it seems to be more complicate?
>
> Simply use junction=traffic_signal as addition to
> highway=traffic_signal. In long terms, we will have two separate objects.
>
> The name belongs to the junction and not to the traffic_signal, or am I
> wrong ?
>
> cu fly
>
>
>
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-- 
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mail: nyamp...@gmail.com
twitter: @nyampire
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tagging for complex junctions or traffic signals that are named

[fly]

Am 16.09.2014 08:54, schrieb Lukas Sommer:
> 
> 
> Would it not be more straight forward to use junction=traffic_signal in
> Japan and only use highway=traffic_signal for the real lights ?
> 
> 
> Hm, I’m not sure. It could separete clearly the individual traffic
> signals from the traffic signal system/the covered area. The downside
> would be that we introduce a new tag, and if you are a contributer and
> you want just add such a name to OSM, you have to deal with two
> different taggings:
> – highway=traffic_signals + name=* for simple cases (as currently)
> – junction=traffic_signal + name=* for the complex cases.
> Not sure, but it seems to be more complicate?

Simply use junction=traffic_signal as addition to
highway=traffic_signal. In long terms, we will have two separate objects.

The name belongs to the junction and not to the traffic_signal, or am I
wrong ?

cu fly



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Re: [Tagging] The "not-shops": industrial, industry, or business

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 09/16/2014 11:17 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> I think that many people think too much information
>> science ("how can I compress the most information
>> into the smallest room") and too little cartography
>> ("how can I make a map with a good user interface").
> 
> You mean people tend not to "tag for the renderer"?

Obviously, "shop=bicycle;surfing" is the exact opposite of tagging for
the renderer...

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] The "not-shops": industrial, industry, or business

[Andy Mabbett]

On 16 September 2014 07:32, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> I think that many people think too much information
> science ("how can I compress the most information
> into the smallest room") and too little cartography
> ("how can I make a map with a good user interface").

You mean people tend not to "tag for the renderer"?

Good.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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