Re: [Tagging] Cenotaph WAS Re: Tagging memorial sites

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 20 set 2016, alle ore 05:04, Marc Gemis  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Except for JFK memorial en Voortrekkers monument, which look like OSM 
> monuments to me
> 


not "except for", but "also". I had written that those are usually all 
monuments and not memorials in osm tagging ;-)
IMHO, we could combine historic=monument and tomb=cenotaph on the same object, 
why not.

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Re: [Tagging] Cenotaph WAS Re: Tagging memorial sites

[Warin]

Read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuben_Memorial_State_Historic_Site

That says his remains are in said tomb... as shown in your linked photo.
The only reference I can see to a 'cenotaph' are your words ... where do 
you get it from?


On 20-Sep-16 08:36 AM, Kevin Kenny wrote:


In what way is it not a cenotaph? It is clearly a structural monument. 
It is in memory of a deceased person. Said deceased person is not 
entombed there, although his remains are thought to be in an unmarked 
grave somewhere nearby. It looks like a tomb, but nobody is entombed 
in it.



On Sep 19, 2016 6:31 PM, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 20-Sep-16 12:51 AM, Kevin Kenny wrote:

tomb=cenotaph sounds perfect, if unusual.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuben_Memorial_State_Historic_Site#/media/File:Baron_von_Steuben_Monumental_Tomb_Jul_10.jpg


is the cenotaph that I was mapping when the question arose. Baron
von Steuben's remains are in an unmarked grave somewhere nearby.
The 'memorial tomb' was erected, contrary to his express wish to
be buried in an unmarked grave, decades after his death. It is
claimed, but by no means certain, that the memorial covers his
remains. He is most certainly not entombed within it.



Not a 'cenotaph'. _Cenotaphs are not tombs_!

A definition of cenotaph is;
a) a structural monument in memory to a deceased person whose body
is elsewhere (so not a tomb)
b) a municipal, civic, or national memorial to those killed in war.

On the LPI data base (for Australia, New South Wales) there are 13
listed 'cenotaphs'.



On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 8:32 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> wrote:


2016-09-19 13:17 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer
>:

there's only one memorial:type=cenotaph



btw., those cenotaphs wikipedia has as examples in osm would
rather be historic=monument than memorial I think:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenotaph


Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Cenotaph WAS Re: Tagging memorial sites

[Marc Gemis]

Except for JFK memorial en Voortrekkers monument, which look like OSM
monuments to me

m

Op 19 sep. 2016 14:34 schreef "Martin Koppenhoefer" :

>
> 2016-09-19 13:17 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
>> there's only one memorial:type=cenotaph
>
>
>
> btw., those cenotaphs wikipedia has as examples in osm would rather be
> historic=monument than memorial I think:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenotaph
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Cenotaph WAS Re: Tagging memorial sites

[Kevin Kenny]

In what way is it not a cenotaph? It is clearly a structural monument. It
is in memory of a deceased person. Said deceased person is not entombed
there, although his remains are thought to be in an unmarked grave
somewhere nearby. It looks like a tomb, but nobody is entombed in it.

On Sep 19, 2016 6:31 PM, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 20-Sep-16 12:51 AM, Kevin Kenny wrote:
>
> tomb=cenotaph sounds perfect, if unusual.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuben_Memorial_State_
> Historic_Site#/media/File:Baron_von_Steuben_Monumental_Tomb_Jul_10.jpg is
> the cenotaph that I was mapping when the question arose. Baron von
> Steuben's remains are in an unmarked grave somewhere nearby. The 'memorial
> tomb' was erected, contrary to his express wish to be buried in an unmarked
> grave, decades after his death. It is claimed, but by no means certain,
> that the memorial covers his remains. He is most certainly not entombed
> within it.
>
>
>
> Not a 'cenotaph'. *Cenotaphs are not tombs*!
>
> A definition of cenotaph is;
> a) a structural monument in memory to a deceased person whose body is
> elsewhere (so not a tomb)
> b) a municipal, civic, or national memorial to those killed in war.
>
> On the LPI data base (for Australia, New South Wales) there are 13 listed
> 'cenotaphs'.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 8:32 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> 2016-09-19 13:17 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>>
>>> there's only one memorial:type=cenotaph
>>
>>
>>
>> btw., those cenotaphs wikipedia has as examples in osm would rather be
>> historic=monument than memorial I think:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenotaph
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Cenotaph WAS Re: Tagging memorial sites

[Warin]

On 20-Sep-16 12:51 AM, Kevin Kenny wrote:

tomb=cenotaph sounds perfect, if unusual.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuben_Memorial_State_Historic_Site#/media/File:Baron_von_Steuben_Monumental_Tomb_Jul_10.jpg 
is the cenotaph that I was mapping when the question arose. Baron von 
Steuben's remains are in an unmarked grave somewhere nearby. The 
'memorial tomb' was erected, contrary to his express wish to be buried 
in an unmarked grave, decades after his death. It is claimed, but by 
no means certain, that the memorial covers his remains. He is most 
certainly not entombed within it.



Not a 'cenotaph'. _Cenotaphs are not tombs_!

A definition of cenotaph is;
a) a structural monument in memory to a deceased person whose body is 
elsewhere (so not a tomb)

b) a municipal, civic, or national memorial to those killed in war.

On the LPI data base (for Australia, New South Wales) there are 13 
listed 'cenotaphs'.



On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 8:32 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:



2016-09-19 13:17 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer
>:

there's only one memorial:type=cenotaph



btw., those cenotaphs wikipedia has as examples in osm would
rather be historic=monument than memorial I think:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenotaph


Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Cenotaph WAS Re: Tagging memorial sites

[Kevin Kenny]

tomb=cenotaph sounds perfect, if unusual.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuben_Memorial_State_Historic_Site#/media/File:Baron_von_Steuben_Monumental_Tomb_Jul_10.jpg
is the cenotaph that I was mapping when the question arose. Baron von
Steuben's remains are in an unmarked grave somewhere nearby. The 'memorial
tomb' was erected, contrary to his express wish to be buried in an unmarked
grave, decades after his death. It is claimed, but by no means certain,
that the memorial covers his remains. He is most certainly not entombed
within it.


On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 8:32 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2016-09-19 13:17 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
>> there's only one memorial:type=cenotaph
>
>
>
> btw., those cenotaphs wikipedia has as examples in osm would rather be
> historic=monument than memorial I think:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenotaph
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Cenotaph WAS Re: Tagging memorial sites

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-09-19 13:17 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

> there's only one memorial:type=cenotaph



btw., those cenotaphs wikipedia has as examples in osm would rather be
historic=monument than memorial I think:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenotaph

Cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] Cenotaph WAS Re: Tagging memorial sites

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-09-19 13:04 GMT+02:00 Kevin Kenny :

> This exchange reminds me of a question that I had recently and forgot to
> ask: do we have specific tagging for a cenotaph? (Since the one in question
> was for a departed general, I tagged it war_memorial and moved on.)



there's only one memorial:type=cenotaph currently in the db, no keys and
most other cenotaph values are in the name tag or variations of it. Do you
think it would be appropriate as value for the tomb subkey?

Here's the proposal and if you think it would be OK there, just add it:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/tombs
and the main feature page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:historic%3Dtomb

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging memorial sites

[Kevin Kenny]

This exchange reminds me of a question that I had recently and forgot to
ask: do we have specific tagging for a cenotaph? (Since the one in question
was for a departed general, I tagged it war_memorial and moved on.)

On Sep 19, 2016 5:22 AM, "Martin Koppenhoefer" 
wrote:

>
> 2016-09-19 10:59 GMT+02:00 Janko Mihelić :
>
>> Do we need a new tag, like historic=memorial_site? Historic=memorial is
>> already established as an object, smaller than monument. How can we than
>> use it for large sites?
>>
>
>
>
> you can't use historic=memorial for large sites. It's a tag for small
> stuff, large memorials are tagged as historic=monument in OSM. Every
> monument in OSM has to be a memorial, it is not sufficient to be a monument
> ;-)
> That's how the tags are defined, regardless of actual linguistic usage
> outside of OSM.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging memorial sites

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-09-19 10:59 GMT+02:00 Janko Mihelić :

> Do we need a new tag, like historic=memorial_site? Historic=memorial is
> already established as an object, smaller than monument. How can we than
> use it for large sites?
>



you can't use historic=memorial for large sites. It's a tag for small
stuff, large memorials are tagged as historic=monument in OSM. Every
monument in OSM has to be a memorial, it is not sufficient to be a monument
;-)
That's how the tags are defined, regardless of actual linguistic usage
outside of OSM.

Cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] Tagging memorial sites

[Janko Mihelić]

There's a lot of memorials that commemorate battles, mass killings, an
idea, or some other notable thing. Sometimes it's a plaque or a statue, but
sometimes it's a huge site. Examples are:

Battle of Mohács memorial:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mohacs_Monument_at_the_Battlefield_2004.JPG
tagged as leisure=park + historic=monument

Jasenovac concentration camp memorial:
http://www.tjedno.hr/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Putopis-Jasenovac.jpg
tagged as tourism=museum

Berlin Holocaust memorial:
http://harvardpolitics.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Holocaust_Memorial_Berlin.jpg
tagged as historic=monument

Dachau concentration camp:
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0b/14/21/8f/kz-dachau.jpg
tagged as historic=memorial

9/11 memorial:
http://s131170.gridserver.com/sites/pwp/images/inline/voids_02.jpg
tagged as leisure=park + historic=memorial

Four freedoms park:
http://www.designboom.com/weblog/images/images_2/danny/FDR/FDR10.jpg
tagged as leisure=park

Some of those really are also parks. They are inside a city, you can come
there and eat a sandwich. But others, like Jasenovac, aren't really parks,
although they are mostly grassy area. You really come there only because
you want to commemorate the event it talks about.

Do we need a new tag, like historic=memorial_site? Historic=memorial is
already established as an object, smaller than monument. How can we than
use it for large sites?

Janko
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Re: [Tagging] Abusing name tags on type=route

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-09-18 21:05 GMT+02:00 Éric Gillet :

> Neither note nor description display when browsing an OSM changeset.
>
>
>  Maybe the website could use description as a fallback when there is no
> name, or more intelligent name display by combining other tags.
>



I just tested the JOSM behaviour, and it shows: name if there is at least a
name tag, note if there is no name but a note tag and nothing for the rest
of the tags I have tested (including description).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] tunnel=building_passage or covered=yes

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-09-18 21:12 GMT+02:00 Tobias Knerr :

> On 11.09.2016 12:46, Dave F wrote:
>
>> But it's *not a tunnel*
>>
>
> Before there was any dedicated tag for it, many people mapped it as
> tunnel=yes, so people definitely appear to intuitively consider it
> tunnel-like.



or maybe they just choose a tag that gets them the rendering they desire.
;-)




>
> That's why the new value was also put into the tunnel key.
>
> Technically, covered might have been better, but either one is a lot
> better than tunnel=yes. At least it can now be clearly distinguished from
> actually tunnels.



+1, and your choice of words ("actual tunnel") suggests you don't see them
as "real" tunnels either ;-)

Cheers,
Martin
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